***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 35 *****
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Continuing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 9 Jul 16 at 16:49
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Given both that you allow some threads upto 1000 and this is an active subject, perhaps a better number might be 200 replies or similar?
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Been looking back at the contributions from the last week along lines of why it's impractical, cannot/will not happen etc. I'm reminded, as I suspect NoFM is, of a model for organisational change where the starting point is 'denial'.
OTOH, while it may be time to move on the majority is not really a mandate for the 'Brexit Max' being proposed by Gove (and no doubt Leadsom). Looks like MP's recognise this and are going for May in growing numbers. The party though may doubt if she's 'Brexity enough'.
If top two are May and Leadsom and party go for latter are they in danger of failing to read the Labour party's problems well enouh?
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It is fairly easy to see what the country needs to do. Getting the country to do it is a whole 'nother ball game.
Lets be honest, if the UK was a company and the politicians were its Board of Management, you'd fire the damn lot of them. You certainly wouldn't be trying to choose the least s***e one as CEO or Chairman.
Equally the goals of a company are reasonably easily quantifiable. Not so the country.
But then in a company the Board typically does not *need* the understanding, agreement and permission of its employees.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 1 Jul 16 at 18:18
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I think somebody said something like "truth is processed in three stages - ridicule, denial, and then a belief that it is self evident."
I know the change thing you mean. I thought it was just a wheeze to get people to go along with something they should sensibly have no truck with;)
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>> I know the change thing you mean. I thought it was just a wheeze to
>> get people to go along with something they should sensibly have no truck with;)
>>
...what, like a referendum?......
;-)
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>> I thought it was just a wheeze to get people to go along with something they should sensibly have no truck with
Usually.
"you're in denial" is frequently code for "you're not clever like me but you'll realise when you grow up".
a***s. Hate that type of consultant.
There are people who hate change because they hate change. There are people with prejudices and fears. They just need managing and containing.
Then there are people who don't necessarily mind change, but have some objection to the currently proposed one which they are able to explain and back up. They may not be worth agreeing with, but they are almost certainly worth listening to. they are usually my favourites to deal with and usually the ones you can learn the most from. And sadly sometimes they're right.
The ones that often cause trouble are the ones that think they are clever, modern, and leading the way. It is depressing how often they are wrong and stupid and how much they fail to question or challenge.
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>> I think somebody said something like "truth is processed in three stages - ridicule, denial,
>> and then a belief that it is self evident."
Found it.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
—
Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)
The source does not record how he said lies are processed;)
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OK, if it's true it must first be ridiculed. But that doesn't mean that if it's first ridiculed, it must be true.
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I'm not making either of those arguments, as I'm sure you know. Just triggered by Bromp's post. But you don't get many converts with ridicule.
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>> The source does not record how he said lies are processed;)
>>
Normal procedure is to run them through Parliament.
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I suppose if it doesn't affect you individually in or out the E.U live goes on.
If jobs are lost whoever you are due to this vote and your family is affected the vote will be remembered.
The people who lost their lives in both world wars on both sides payed a price for something.That price was me not having to go or suffer what my parents suffered.
I always thought and still do that the E.U would stop people killing each other in Europe and the rest is a sideshow.
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That last point has always been my fundamental reason for supporting the EU and our membership of it, Dutchie. Whatever its imperfections as an organization, you have only to see the ugly heads that stir from under their stones at the first hint that it might be weakening, to understand what we might lose.
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A different business view this week from a firm in the Midlands.
Many of the staff there were leavers and they are a huge exporter and many of the staff that I met travelled the world.
From their payroll about 15% of the staff manufacture the product, the rest are sales, accounts, marketing etc.
So, asking the question, which is pertinent to my work, how do they see the outlook?
They were optimistic, they can easily switch manufacturing around the world, to plants in the East, Far East and Europe and machinery here can be dropped in a container and moved around the world with a little effort.
Of course if they do their wage bill here will drop 15%, that's crudely 15% less NI and TAX.
The actual number of manufacturing staff is more than 15% of the workforce as the manufacturing staff are paid less than the office staff (so about 20% to 25% from 300).
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 1 Jul 16 at 18:58
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>>they can easily switch manufacturing around the world, to plants in the East, Far East and Europe and machinery here can be dropped in a container and moved around the world with a little effort. <<
And that would rather be the concern. Many can and many will.
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>> I always thought and still do that the E.U would stop people killing each other in Europe and
>> the rest is a sideshow.
And we've seen in the past week we have some nasty people in the UK. Leaving the EU won't make the situation better.
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Now the pound has weakened against the dollar I'd expect prices of PCs, tablets, etc to rise a bit soon. If you're planning a purchase then maybe do it sooner than later. That is if you know you still afford such a luxury.
Servers, networking kit, etc. has already started to go up in price.
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I wonder it will affect the repair side of things. Some of my licences have already increased in price. So far this week has been about normal for the time of year. I am thinking now is a good time to get some businesses into Office 365 as that might work out cheaper than constant server maintenance etc.
I don't think the rises will be that much though, maybe 20% or so. The £ against the dollar has been this low before.
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That's what I read before posting here.
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I will confess, I ordered a new desktop PC on Thursday.
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I hope you like Windows 10... but it's much better than 8!
What did you get? Surprising how small a PC can be for sufficient performance.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 1 Jul 16 at 21:24
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I don't like vanilla Win 10, but add Classic Shell and it becomes acceptable. Plus a bit of time to turn off all the MS snooping.
PC is a Dell, small it aint, but cost me less than the one it will replace.
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Racist abuse in UK is nothing new. Google "racism on the tube" and you will find that even in London, the supposedly most diverse and tolerant city in the UK - if not in the world - it has been rearing its ugly head in public.
It is true that the Leave vote has emboldened a few more to vent their racism in public. However, I am also aware that there are others who have been calmed by the decision to leave. They were very likely to have gone over the edge had Remain won. Indeed some were so charged up that they were likely to very strong physical action against those people they saw as "foreigners". In their eyes, someone like Movilogo - although legally settled and a British citizen - will forever be seen as an immigrant, and never be accepted as a Brit. It was there before Brexit or Remain, it would have remained after Brexit or Remain.
Leave won despite the Remain bias shown by BBC, ITV, Sky, and Channel 4. Even after the result has been declared, Ch4 won't let go. They just ran a story billed supposedly as about the Australian points based immigration system. In fact it turned out to be a hatchet job on their asylum and refugee policy, and yet in the opening and closing sentences the reporter referred to it as the Australian points based immigration system.
Interesting that today, Osborne has declared his deficit reduction target is dead - using the Brexit excuse to save himself from the ignominy of having to admit that his target was in fact never going to be met. He has done so hurriedly knowing that his days as Chancellor are likely to be coming to an end very soon.
For those who are fretting about the stock and currency markets - unless you are at a point where you are either buying or selling, relax. For every buyer there is a seller, and for every seller there is buyer. Look at
www.google.co.uk/finance?q=INDEXFTSE%3AUKX
www.google.co.uk/finance?q=GBPUSD
www.google.co.uk/finance?q=GBPEUR
and expand using the "ALL" tab. Then pick a time and year to suit your pessimistic/optimistic half-empty/half-full outlook on life, then cry or laugh to justify that stance on life.
I too am decamping from this thread, as I don't want to be dragged in to the malaise and depression exhibited here.
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Fri 1 Jul 16 at 20:36
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Yes I'd go an bury my head in the sand too if I were you. Join the other Brexiters wherever they are hiding ;-)
Why do the leave voters think things are okay so far and things haven't gone all wrong. We've hardly had any time for people to find their jobs are at risk, moved overseas, whatever. It's early days.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 1 Jul 16 at 21:03
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I don't want to do this anymore. Its no fun, and my major concern of making sure such stupidity and bigotry as exhibited by so many of the participants could not be allowed to stand unchallenged, simply to protect, and balance the message to, the casual visitor is no longer so important.
So my final note on this subject;
I wish we'd been Remain and I think it would have been far better for our country.
Being out will be less and the UK will be less for it.
Nonetheless, the majority of voters want out, and so that needs to be listened to. Although ultimately it will not happen quite like that.
The transition should be manageable but the UK will f*** it up.
We will end up with all the downsides we currently have just so that we can retain our access to the market, but we will have less, and perhaps none, of the advantages. We certainly will have no vote or influence.
All politicians are lying b******s, but even they should be ashamed of their performance in the run up to this referendum.
I detest all bigots and bullies. I detest hypocrisy and sanctimony.
I think that about covers it.
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>> We will end up with all the downsides we currently have just so that we
>> can retain our access to the market, but we will have less, and perhaps none,
>> of the advantages. We certainly will have no vote or influence.
I think that's about it, probably best outcome we can hope for. In two years time when it's apparent that inward investment is a desert and airbus/nissan etc threatening to contract then we'll do a quick and dirty deal along exactly those lines.
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>
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>> I too am decamping from this thread, as I don't want to be dragged in
>> to the malaise and depression exhibited here.
>>
Me too, unless some interesting new points for discussion are raised.
Whichever way it went, life will go on pretty much as before. Those who forecast dire consequences either way simply fall into the trap of believing politicians' inflated notions of their importance and ability to change things.
But I do think they need to sort out exactly where they think this new democratic phenomenon of referendums sits in our representative constitution.
We have carelessly created in effect three houses of parliament - Lords, Commons, and now People. Who has the mandate? Who has the precedence?
Until that is resolved, everyone can claim to have won/lost, and the acrimonious arguments will go on forever.
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Well as for forecasts, they aren't the province of politicians. They rely, if they bother to plan, on a range of specialists to guide. What is clear re the role of referendums is that the Government failed to think it through. For weighty constitutional matters, issues for consideration would include: 1) whether the referendum bound the country 2) what margin would be required 3) given a Binary vote, what actions would be required if the vote was of such magnitude to imply change of the legislation 4) what the most reliable verdicts are on each outcome, as material to be presented to the voters before the vote, with the warning that this is not a game and protest votes might be regretted. Hindsight eh!
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36689608
Some post referendum polling, quite a few think we won't actually leave. It doesn't break it down if they voted remain or leave, unfortunately.
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Interesting point from Sooty's link:
marginally more voters favoured the UK continuing without restrictions on migration in return for continuing to trade in the single market
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My vote is for Theresa May.
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Are you a member of the Conservative Party Fluffy? If not you don't have a vote I'm afraid.
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For those who used the strength of Germany as an argument for voting Leave, consider this: the US now regards Germany as a more important European ally than the UK. Obama has said we're still friends, but he'll be leaving soon.
“Henry Kissinger’s famous question about ‘Who do I call in Europe?’ has now been settled. The answer is that we call the German chancellor’s office. That means we have to invest in the relationship with Germany,†said Nicholas Burns, a former senior State Department official in the George W Bush administration, who is now advising Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign.
Full FT article here
www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0c71dc88-3b8b-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a.html#ixzz4DKMJRN8U
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Germany has the most powerfull economy in Europe.Angela Merkel will keep a lid on things.
If she was outvoted next year in the German Election depending who is in charge the German attitude could change very quick.They have their immigration problems and the Germans won't keep forever apologising about the war.
Times are changing.
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Apparently Angela has tried to call the UK to talk but either no-one's in or no-one is answering the phone.
It seems they're all too busy stabbing each other to bother about the state of the country.
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Theres's nobody to talk to until there is a new prime minister. The current one gambled on the referendum and had to quit. There is no plan and in the meantime all economies will suffer. I assume this is what those that voted leave wanted as a starting point.
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" I assume this is what those that voted leave wanted as a starting point."
A pretty sweeping and probably incorrect assumption in my view.
But what the heck - I've had enough of this thread that gets nowhere other than up each other's noses.
I'm out of this discusion too.
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I think everyone is tired with this - we'll never agree.
Yes it was a sweeping statement. But what did the leave voters think would have happened in the first 7 days? Cameron resigning and potentially limbo for a few months until we get a new leader whoever it is. Admittedly the EU stance on no negotiation on trade until you're out might have been seen as a curve ball. They are also playing harder with Switzerland on movement of people now too.
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"Times are changing."
I rather suspect that the new cast of international leaders leaders will include Hillary Clinton, Angela Merkel, Theresa May, and Nicola Sturgeon.
Let's hope the women make a better job of it than the men. I'm rather hopeful that a greater female influence on things will make a difference for the good.
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"Let's hope the women make a better job of it than the men. I'm rather hopeful that a greater female influence on things will make a difference for the good."
That's what I thought when Margaret Thatcher became PM.
Little did I realise that she actually wasn't a woman at all.
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She did manage to halve the E.U budget.Finished the miners off and went to war in the Falklands.
The Iron Lady.
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I went to see my buddy in Munich last Sept and he co-opted for the week as a footy coach for about 20 African immigrants. I asked him this week how the footy was going and he said there aren't enough of them left now as they have been shipped back to their point of entry into Europe. He said they may or may not end up back in Munich (where some had been for almost a year).
Seems they are taking steps to address their problem.
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Britain has the second biggest economy in Europe.
Only the German economy is bigger.
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And France has a larger economy now. We might not even be third when we come to leave the EU.
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Why has France got a bigger economy than Britain.
Who will overtake us too come third and us fourth.
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Comparing GDPs means converting them to the same currency (whether £, USD or Euro).
When the pound is weaker, our comparative economy shrinks (and vice versa when it strengthens).
ps. In my mind when talking about economy 'size' raw GDP is meaningless without also taking on board total debt, debt interest, and budget deficit.
A bit like the businessman with a £20 million portfolio of properties, but who has £22 million of mortgages and whose rental income falls short of paying his mortgage interest by £500k per year - the £20m headline figure is almost meaningless.
It is likely both the interest we have to pay on our borrowings, and our requirement to borrow will increase during the forthcoming period of transition.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 3 Jul 16 at 20:40
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Thanks for the reply.
I understand what that means about size of our economy in comparison to the other countries.
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Fluffy posts a polite thank you for an answer to his question.
You post a churlish and completely uncalled for comment. Why?
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It has what to do with you?
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Just curious as to why you have to be so obnoxious. Is it some sort of personality disorder?
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Still not quite seeing why its got anything to do with you.
Why I would care what you think or indeed want to know? Perhaps you think you're relevant in some way?
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What indeed has anyone got to do with anything?
As I say just curious as to why someone feels the need to be rude and abusive to someone acting in a perfectly civil manner. Since you do it repeatedly I can only assume it is some sort of untreatable disorder.
I realise of course you don't care what I think or indeed what any one else thinks. Rather part of the problem really. What does your therapist say?
Of course I have no misapprehension as to my relevance in this matter or anything else. When it comes down to it we are all pretty irrelevant aren't we?
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You do seem to have rather an obsession given your repeated questions regarding my supposed untreatable disorders, therapists etc. and curiosity as to my motivations.
Your obsession with me is no concern of mine. You should accept a fundamental truth; you seem to have some interest in me, I have none in you.
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Obnoxious, arrogant ****. But why should you care what any of us think. I'd have given you half a dozen green thumbs there, CG. the damn thing won't let me! I don't give a tuppeny fart what FM thinks...I'm shockproof !
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 4 Jul 16 at 10:10
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>> I don't give a tuppeny fart what FM thinks.
No, neither do all the other people who wrote notes about me, posted links, put thumbs and frownies....
Oh no, wait..........................
You lot really need to get out more.
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Not so much an obsession really just a curiosity which of course I don't expect you to reciprocate.
I just find it odd that someone who is obviously intelligent and literate and could therfore write with with charm and wit if they wanted to has to constantly descend into ridicule and abuse.
I can only assume that since presumably no one would actively desire to be seen by others in the way that you clearly are in this forum, that you are in some way unable to help yourself. Shame really.
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>>I can only assume that since presumably no one would actively desire to be seen by others in the way that you clearly are in this forum
Again, you are judging me by your standards and thus whilst your assumptions may be valid for you, they have no relevance to me. I have no active desire to be seen one way or another by most in this forum and I certainly have no interest in their opinions of me.
Why would I? [that's rhetorical, by the way].
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Well perhaps I am judging by my standards but I think that most people prefer to be liked rather that disliked, all things being equal . You seem to rejoice in being rude and acting in a bullying manner which not altogether normal and is why I suspect that you have some sort of personality disorder.
Not much more to say really.
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>>Not much more to say really.
I doubt that will stop you saying it.
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>> I just find it odd that someone who is obviously intelligent and literate
Whereas fluffy's post come across as.... I'll leave it for you to decide how they differ.
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I'll leave you to consider why that makes FM2R's comments so churlish.
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I'm always amazed that Mark bothers to post here at all, since he has often reminded us that he regards us with scorn.
Actually, that's not true, since he cares enough about some of us at least to come up with some really helpful stuff when advice is called for. And elsewhere his posts can be thoughtful and well-informed. Yes, he's clearly intelligent and articulate. He also claims to have a strong sense of principle. (Here's an example from higher up: "I detest all bigots and bullies. I detest hypocrisy and sanctimony." Not sure how that sits with his treatment of Fluffy, but still...)
But sometimes another mode/mood/whim kicks in and the nastiness surfaces. It's usually when he decides someone has stepped out of line in some way. It feels as if he's on a hair-trigger a lot of the time. And he's admitted in the past to not handling emotions very well.
It all seems pretty complicated to me. I'm not sure I'd want to meet him. Is he really as unstable and unpredictable as he seems? Or is it all a big act?
As someone else might say, discuss.
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>>As someone else might say, discuss.
Genuinely, why do you care enough to bother? Or why does it interest you? I mean, I have no exception to being the subject of discussion, but damned if I know why you'd care enough.
If something I say is valuable, interesting or useful, then no doubt you will make use of it. If something I say is worthless, boring or annoying, presumably you will just ignore it.
I can think of no reason why I would not help someone if I can (I think I usually do), nor any reason I would not tell them that they're a t*** if I think that they are (I'm sure I usually do). I don't tell my Mother if someone here compliments me, and I don't tell my priest if they criticise me.
I don't really understand why it goes beyond that. Nor do I understand why you refer to me in the 3rd person like someone on a panel discussing an absent interviewee. Not that it matters much, but its a curious behaviour; something to do with distance, I guess.
Am I unstable? I don't think so. Unpredictable? No, quite the opposite I should think. I am pretty much the same online and in real life I think, though you'd probably get a more reliable answer from others.
As for wanting to meet me or not, well its not *that* likely now is it? Though for myself I doubt that there is a single person in creation that I would not want to meet. Well, at least once. you never know what you will learn from whom. Even if its only how not to.....
But I don't think we'll bump into each other in the street. Although I have met some from here or "the other place", usually pleasant and interesting people, some less so.
Just like real life.
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exception/objection and auto correct. Bleaargh.
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>>sometimes another mode/mood/whim kicks in and the nastiness surfaces. It's usually when he decides someone has stepped out of line in some way. It feels as if he's on a hair-trigger a lot of the time. And he's admitted in the past to not handling emotions very well.
>>It all seems pretty complicated to me
Not to me: www.nhs.uk/Conditions/personality-disorder/Pages/Definition.aspx
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>> I'm always amazed that Mark bothers to post here at all,
>>
Just a small observation, but who is Mark? Presumably he is so well known as not to need any introduction, or else we are supposed to work it out from the sequence of previous posts.
I have said it before that the use of familiar names by an in-group is off-putting to new members.
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SQ
>> Just a small observation, but who is Mark?
No FM2R
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 6 Jul 16 at 10:14
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Hold on to your irony meters; he wants a 'clear statement' of 'basic truths' about leaving the EU. Something he might have liked to try himself, ideally before 23 June.
Brexit: Set out positives of leaving, Boris Johnson urges
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468
Meanwhile Govey is a P***-head and a blabbermouth, according to his friends. And those of us who said all along that the rats in this particular sack were not to be trusted, are now 'hysterical' because we haven't rolled over and said 'well played, chaps'.
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>>Meanwhile Govey is a P***-head and a blabbermouth
ditto this fellow (note the whites? of his eyes)
: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/03/angela-merkel-to-oust-jean-claude-juncker-as-europe-splits-deepe/
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....it's rather ironic isn't is that having held a plebiscite on whether or not to leave Europe, and had millions vote on it, the direction and speed of doing so is now to be decided by just over 100,000 Tory supporters, with a result that may not reflect the (then) feeling of the people who voted in that plebiscite.
It seems to me that we are going to get a very different approach to handling the issues depending on who gets the Tory party vote.
Unlike the debate about holding a second referendum or not, or testing the will of parliament to exit, I don't see too many people complaining about that (which is, IMO, equally "non-democratic" - using the now conventional terminology ;-) ).
In such circumstances, once DC had resigned, IMO the only ethical way to deal with the way ahead would have been to elect a new party leader, and then go to the country.
Meanwhile, the more rabid of the prominent "outers" in the political world are still demanding that we invoke Article 50 immediately (and still without a plan or an understanding of the consequences - though no doubt, "something will come along"). My suspicion is that they are concerned that taking a measured approach will expose more and more of the issues, and time will erode some more of the public mood for "out". All the more reason for care.
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>> ....it's rather ironic isn't is that having held a plebiscite on whether or not to leave Europe, and
>> had millions vote on it, the direction and speed of doing so is now to be decided by just over >> 100,000 Tory supporters
But if leave won (and many thought that wouldn't be the outcome) then DC would have resigned and therefore the Conservatives would have elected a new leader. And assuming there's still two candidates at the end of this part of the process, it would be the Conservative party members who decide. The same would apply if it was Labour in power. This isn't ironic it's predictable. There was never a guaranteed Boris would be elected - but who'd have predicted he'd not run at all.
>> It seems to me that we are going to get a very different approach to handling the issues
>> depending on who gets the Tory party vote.
That would have been predictable too.
>> Meanwhile, the more rabid of the prominent "outers" in the political world are still
>> demanding that we invoke Article 50 immediately (and still without a plan or an
>> understanding of the consequences - though no doubt, "something will come along").
How can an act of parliament be passed without debate? And to have a debate you need the facts. This approach too was predictable. Maybe some of the more prominent leave supports we could send the EU a postcard straightaway :-)
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Farage steps down too now.
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May be to form a new party with all leave supporters from Labour + Conservative?
Especially if UK does not leave EU by 2020, this new party can get a good number of votes.
Last edited by: movilogo on Mon 4 Jul 16 at 11:04
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UKIP should unite with the Conservative Party.
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Just received yet another letter addressed to the Bulgarians living in caravans 3 mins from here - using my address (flipping cheek!) I asked postie to deliver it to them - I'm anti EU not anti European.
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>> Just received yet another letter addressed to the Bulgarians living in caravans 3 mins from
>> here - using my address (flipping cheek!) I asked postie to deliver it to them
Why don't you return it to sender?
As long as people think they can get away with deliberately misaddressing letters, they will continue to do it. Why don't the people at the caravan put the correct address on mail?
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>> Why don't the people at the caravan put the correct address on mail?
Because they don't have an address and so far Dog has ensured their mail gets to them? Just my guess.
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>>Why don't you return it to sender?
Speaking to my wife earlier it turns out that she does just that (she has more sense than me)
>>As long as people think they can get away with deliberately misaddressing letters, they will continue to do it.
There was a piece on Radio 4 today about that, but I think in this case it's just Bulgarians working for the minimum wage and earning 5/6 times what they can earn in their own country.
>>Why don't the people at the caravan put the correct address on mail?
I'll have to have a think about that one - my wife is office manager for a firm of solicitors so I will have a chinwag about it later, in case they rob a local PO and I get my collar felt.
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What a mess!
I'm not sure we can have a general election without a vote of no confidence in HMG, and that would require the Gov't to vote against itself.
And if we did... then the Lib Dems and UKIP would get lots of seats, so the Tories and Labour wouldn't vote for that... nor would the SNP as they can only ever get fewer seats than they have.
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And after Brexit:
Brexit. Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Fruckoff. Czechout. Oustria. Finish. Slovakout. Latervia. Byegium.
Only Remania to remain
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>> Finish
Finland isn't in the EU. What about Germany? Germexit sounds naff.
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>> >> Finish
>>
>> Finland isn't in the EU.
Oh yes it is!!!
And uses the Euro too.
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I for some reason was thinking Norway wasn't I :-)
Finland of course was close to Russia so to speak (not just location wise) in the time of the Tsars.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 4 Jul 16 at 15:42
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And yes I'm the thick one today :-)
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Isn't it ? I could have sworn it joined on the 1st January 1995.
Perhaps I missed its departure.
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>> What a mess!
Nicely summed up.
Not only wouldn't they call for a general election because they would lose seats, the manifesto of Labour, Conservative, Liberals, SNP, etc. would most likely state they want the UK to stay in the EU. So the leave voters would have to vote UKIP.
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>> >> What a mess!
>>
Shambles. Those who don't fall on their swords fast enough get stabbed in the back. It will be Juncker next, then perhaps Hollande.
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"I have a Ph.D (in Computer Science), and I voted to leave. My decision was a political one, not an economic one. Our laws are being made by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats behind closed doors. I was fully aware of the (short term) economic hit that would ensue, but I would rather eat dirt than su*k EU c*ck and pretend it's candy".
www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/348318-episode-max-keiser-932/
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An old colleague of mine* used to refer to such people as 'intellectual idiots'.
*He found posthumous fame on Heir Hunters as Charlie Cullum (though we knew him as Carl)
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 4 Jul 16 at 16:02
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>> 'intellectual idiots'.
There are a lot of those, far more than most people think.
Learning and intelligence are two very different things as I keep saying.
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I knew one guy at school who you'd call very intelligent - he went to Oxford to do his degree. He had no common sense whatsoever and was rubbish at practical subjects like woodwork and design work.
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>> I knew one guy at school who you'd call very intelligent - he went to
>> Oxford to do his degree. He had no common sense whatsoever and was rubbish at
>> practical subjects like woodwork and design work.
>>
Funny, I know a guy who is is a really good carpenter, brilliant at designing things but is absolute rubbish at theoretical physics and absolutely wouldn't cut it at Oxford.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Mon 4 Jul 16 at 17:09
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Met a few such while I was campaigning, including the proprietor of a shop I buy from. He'd struck me as no mug but out it came: all bureaucrat-this, unelected-that and accounts-not-signed-off-the-other. Even where it had some truth, it was mere smoke and noise in the big picture of the EU's economic and social significance, but he was either unwilling or unable to lift his gaze from the troublesome minutiae that had got him in such a lather. I suspect he's far from alone; might even find a friend or two here.
Not so different really from the attitude we mentioned in the Demographics thread: running a small business has its stresses too and it must sometimes seem as if no-one in authority is taking any notice. Read a few articles in the Telegraph about MEPs' travel expenses and out goes the bathwater - and the baby.
Silly thing is, his shop sells menswear, most of it - everything I've bought there - sourced from continental Europe. He may just have voted himself out of business.
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We Voted Leave on the 23rd June 2016.
We should all respect that decision.
I voted Remain but I do respect the Vote Leave decision.
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More an aberration than a decision. The voting public are as fickle as a football crowd. That's why we have a representative democracy. Probably.
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We voted 48/52 amongst those who made the poll. Closer amongst the whole electorate. If it were a General Election the result would be a hung Parliament.
I respect the vote but it was a complex question presented in binary. In reality the verdict was that we need to adjust our relationship with the EU.
There's no mandate for what Gove is proposing which amounts to an experiment with American neo-con economics.
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I have a sadness why we Voted Leave.
Lets hope the country does not tear itself apart.
Three leaders of our major political parties are gone or about to go.
God knows what is coming next.
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>> Three leaders of our major political parties are gone or about to go.
Cameron - check
Corbin - check
Who's the other leader of a major political party? Chris Evans?
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Whether you like them or not I think you would have to count UKIP as a major political party on account of the number of votes they attract
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God may know, but does May know God?
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Mon 4 Jul 16 at 21:07
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Her father was a vicar.Doesn't anybody know God?
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Nigel Farage has resigned from UKIP.
I wonder when Corbyn will resign fro the Labour Party.
UKIP had over 4 million votes in last years General election.
What horror comes next.
100 UKIP M.P.s in the House of commons.
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>>Doesn't anybody know God?
Yes. I know God: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV85FZb1fq0
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Saw Him live once. Manifestation in Empire Theatre Liverpool. With another deity, George Harrison:)
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I have been a Tory voter all my life and have spent many hours pounding the streets for the party. I was delighted with the result at the last election.
Now I wonder. The 'safe pair of hands with the economy' has caused a sterling crash. The Government offered a referendum which was a choice between something that was quite clear, and something that was not clear at all.
Cameron must take blame for not setting out what people were voting for if they voted to leave.
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I agree that Cameron owns a portion of blame in the way the vote was designed.
For me it is also absolutely disgusting that the two key people in the Leave campaign have stepped down. It doesn't really matter why. If they can't be bothered to carry through the changes they fought for, then to me they've lost all credibility, forever.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 5 Jul 16 at 09:56
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>>Saw Him live once. Manifestation in Empire Theatre Liverpool. With another deity, George Harrison:)
I bet they/he didn't play this one Norton: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_txpe6Ie2Nk
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Novelty number! Never heard it before. Not a hit was it?
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>>Never heard it before
Few people have :) .. I first heard it back in '68, most un Cream like, a B side I believe.
Ah! .. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheels_of_Fire
Last edited by: Dog on Tue 5 Jul 16 at 13:58
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>>
>> I respect the vote but .......
>>
I don't want to criticise but .....
Far be it from me to ......
I'm not an expert but ....
:)
The big BUT as I keep on saying is that a referendum is inconsistent with our representative democracy. It was madness ever to introduce the practice without having clearly defined exactly what weight the outcome is supposed to carry - it was bound to end in tears.
The situation now is that people have two diametrically opposite interpretations of a referendum result:
1) The winners - it's a valid democratic decision by the people and must be respected and acted on,
or
2) The losers - it's little more than an opinion poll, and probably just as inaccurate. Ignore it.
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>> >>
>> >> I respect the vote but .......
>> >>
Some of us who voted remain have reluctantly accepted the result, it was always going to be close.
So like it or not we do respect the vote.
The big question for the future, in my mind is, is freedom of movement and EU market access part of what our negotiators should be pursuing.
How many who voted to leave would accept any deal that does not give us full control of our borders? I suspect not very many.
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>> How many who voted to leave would accept any deal that does not give us
>> full control of our borders? I suspect not very many.
It doesn't actually need very many 'mind changers' to shift the vote.
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Exactly, Bromp: 1.8% would do it. The BBC estimates there are 5% of Leave voters who would shift, Opinium reckons 7%. Still reckon the result is safe and satisfactory, or whatever the electoral equivalent is?
On a train now in Belgium, en route to Germany. First European trip since, well, y'know. Could be interesting.
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>> 1.8% would do it.
It's a bit more than that...
17,410,742 leave
16,141,241 remain
Margin of 1,269,501 or 7.3% of leave / 7.9% of remain.
So swing of 634,751 required to give remain win; which is 3.6% of original leave voters. The 5% (or 7%) quoted would do it...
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>> So swing of 634,751 required to give remain win; which is 3.6% of original leave
>> voters. The 5% (or 7%) quoted would do it...
Before a campaign to accept some revised deal. Would Boris's endorsement be positive or negative for outcome?
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Yes, you're right, Richard. I was working on total votes cast, which wasn't a fair comparison with Bromp's thoughts or the poll figures, which are expressed in terms of Leave voters.
If you look at the number who'd have to change as a percentage of the total 46m electorate, 650,000 looks pitifully small as the margin of safety for such a huge change in national direction.
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Badly organised. If there is a further referendum, lets hope that there are measures against which a vote to change has to qualify.
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>> Badly organised.
Perhaps the PM and the government thought that the electorate were, in the main, intelligent and realised the consequences of any 'protest' vote.
It seems a sufficient number of the electorate didn't realise the likely consequences.
>> If there is a further referendum, lets hope that there are measures against
>> which a vote to change has to qualify.
A bit unlikely and a bit late, I would have said.
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The British Voted Leave.
We as a society have to respect that decision.
I as fluffy voted to Remain.
I have no regrets for the way I voted and what the consequences of that vote will be.
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"We as a society have to respect that decision." Decision? It's an advisory. If it was binding the protocols would have said so. Wiser heads have to take the responsibility for constitutional matters or Murdoch, Dacre and the Barclay Bros would usurp Parliament. Not a pretty thought.
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Been pretty much dead since the disastrous day. Phone hasn't rang since last Wednesday which is now a record. I am sure it can't be a coincidence although it is always a quiet time of year.
I am just so angry that the rich politicians have started this all, then all walked way leaving the entire country in a state of limbo. I am too worried for the next few months as I will just sell my car etc but I really can't see myself being able to get a job in the current climate either.
I am hoping this is just a blip and in a weeks time or so people will start spending again. I always find IT spending is one of the first things people cut back on when times are uncertain. I went through all this between 2008-2011.
One of my neighbours have just put their terraced house on the market for £425,000 (it was really worth £360 max) but now I think they would be lucky to get 350k.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 5 Jul 16 at 11:34
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Who would you normally expect calls from, Rats? Customers, clearly, but what sort? I can't see private customers or even small businesses living with a broken PC if there was a simple and cheap way (you) to fix it; that would just cost them more in inconvenience and lost revenue. New installations and system upgrades might be a different matter, of course.
In other words I wouldn't assume at this point that post-referendum jitters (although we know there'll be worse than jitters in other sectors of the economy) will have a drastic effect on your business just yet. In the meantime, are there any gimmicks you could use to drum up trade - the IT equivalent to the 'summer health checks' that garages use to pull in business at quiet times? Free system scans or virus checks, for example, the kind of thing that could give you a chance to make recommendations for other work you might do.
Good luck. The uncertainty can't be pleasant.
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Not for glass half empty merchants: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2gPxR5nbYE
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I don't like the 'immigrants had no right to vote Leave' angle. If they've made a home and a life here to the extent of gaining citizenship and a vote, their vote is as valid as any other whichever view they take.
That, of course, is not the same as saying they knew what they were voting for, or that they have much chance of getting whatever they thought it was, but the fault there lies with the mendacious and pernicious Leave campaign, not with the ordinary voter.
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Are we now in a Recession.
My feeling is we are in a recession now.
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A recession is a fall in GDP over two quarters.
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I am cheerful.
I am glad Theresa May came top with 165 votes.
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Theresa May will be one of the 2 who will go forward to the Tory party membership for a final vote.
Since >50% of this group wish for Brexit, presumably the most "Brexity" will stand the best chance, notwithstanding who the MPs want.
Assuming the second place candidate has a tiny number of MP votes and assuming again they are voted leader by the Tory faithful, would this set up the Conservatives for a Corbyn-esque fiasco as is being played out just now in Labour, with PM unwanted by most in the HoC?
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 5 Jul 16 at 21:38
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>> Assuming the second place candidate has a tiny number of MP votes and assuming again
>> they are voted leader by the Tory faithful, would this set up the Conservatives for
>> a Corbyn-esque fiasco as is being played out just now in Labour, with PM unwanted
>> by most in the HoC?
A serious risk I think. That of course is what happened with IDS, MP vote was for Ken Clarke.
Didn't end well and they were not in Government then.
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Funny how 165 out of 329 is an absolute majority and yet is not considered decisive in this election.
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I agree 165 is an absolute majority against 329 who voted.
Lets hope party members get a vote as well.
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Why? How are they more representative of the interests of the nation than the MPs elected to represent (bits of) it?
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>> How are they more representative of the interests of the nation than the MPs
>> elected to represent (bits of) it?
>>
I agree.
Why the assumption that anyone who votes for anything represents the nation's interests? They reprent possibly their own perceived interests at the moment of voting, but they have no ongoing responsibility to answer for that vote. Only their elected MPs remain to live with the results.
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Thought provoking article in today's FT.
next.ft.com/content/abc67bac-41e1-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1
Nothing that wasn't apparent before the referendum but how many of our East Country Outies thought it through to the consequences?
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Ah, sorry. Try googling 'salad baggers site:FT.com' You should be able to read it from that.
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A not-particularly promising outlook from a usually well-respected business leader.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36740602
He's a poor deluded soul really, he needs to speak to the same out voters as me, who say it will bounce back and we all have nothing to worry about.
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I wonder if the deteriorating £/$ exchange rate has prompted an offer I received from a travel consultant friend...Flying BA from MAN via LHR to Vegas in Nov @ £550. Includes 7 night RO at the MGM Grand. Variable weather in Nov, no lounging by the pool, but lots to see & do.
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In the short term, if bookings drop, there will ironically be bargains. Half rate is better than empty rooms.
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BA have been running a sale since well before the referendum; they always do this time of year. Ends next week...unless it's extended !!
We're currently away on a BA holiday booked in the winter sale last year. Full plane - booked premium economy out/club back (overnight) and got upgraded outbound too :)
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Doesn't really sound particularly cheap does it? I can see BA flights in Nov to Vegas for £350. I thought hotels were always ridiculously cheap there.
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>I thought hotels were always ridiculously cheap there.
Vegas hotels are heavily discounted mid-week but charge full rate ($hundreds) on Fri, Sat & Sunday so any stay that includes a weekend can be expensive.
When we lived in Austin, the local newspaper often had mid-week deals offering return flights plus three nights hotel for around $100, subsidised by the casinos. They knew that they'd get the money back at the tables and slots.
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Austin! You lived in Austin? I am on a US trip in Oct that ends in Austin, could do with knowing that I have the place sussed properly. I want to listen to music in bars.
Is this hotel in walking distance of where I need to be? www.super8.com/hotels/texas/austin/super-8-austin-dtwn-capitol-area/hotel-overview
I reckon it might be cos I think the required area is e 6th St.
(The trip starts with the Desert Trip concert in Coachella, CA - 3 days of old folk singing (Stones, Who , Macca, Neil Young, Roger Waters and Bob Dylan). Then to New Orleans for quite a few nights where we have an apartment over a bar close to the French Quarter. Then to Memphis, hotel near Beale St, then Nashville, Atlanta and eventually back to Austin for the last 5 nights.)
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Are you driving or using some internal flights Smokie? Sounds a fun trip. My potential road trip taking in National Parks in the NW never materialised...
I thought £550 was good value, flying from a northern airport and staying at the MGM directly on the Strip. Not the best month to visit though... I like heat!
Last time I stayed at the Venetian, three midweek nights, it cost me a small fortune, although I did pay for a room upgrade on one of the upper floors.
Have a great trip
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Fly to LA, drive to concert (Coachella) then flight from Phoenix to New Orleans, then drive to Memphis, Nashville, Atlanta then drive back across Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi to Texas. Flight home is from Dallas (to Atlanta to Heathrow). Nearly 4 weeks.
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Referendum Discussion - Vol 34 - No FM2R
