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Ok Cameron has got what he wanted, told the cabinet whats happening and we the country go to the polls on 23rd June. No idea what the question will be on the ballot paper yet, but you can be sure it will be careful worded to get an IN vote.
As fluffy says
Discuss:
just hi-jacked the thread title a little as this is likely to run - RP
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 22 Feb 16 at 01:37
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Out..... I want the UK legislature to make UK laws with no interference from anyone else.
If the EU were to be amenable to the UK being just common market members, I'd agree that, but as that is not on the table, it's an 'out' for me.
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>> Out..... I want the UK legislature to make UK laws with no interference from anyone
>> else.
>>
Minded to agree with you.... but.
Most of us who post on here can clearly remember what life was like in Britain before we entered the EU. We no longer have the Commonwealth to trade with as we did then; for one thing we have virtually nothing to trade with them, and even if we did it wouldn't be at "mates' rates" as it was then.
I posted on another forum that whilst I'm certainly no Thatcherite, I'm in agreement with her maxim that we should be in Europe but not run by it. I even heard the great Welsh windbag Kinnock endorsing this stance on radio 4 t'other day.
So I vote to stay in. You cannot effect change by leaving.
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In and have a reformed E.U
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Can EU citizen that do not have a UK Passport vote in the in/out referendum.
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>> Can EU citizen that do not have a UK Passport vote in the in/out referendum.
Insufficient data.
bfy.tw/4MaY
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Can you expand your argument why you say OUT.
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Glastonbury Festival 2016 will take place from Wed, 22nd June to Sun, 26th June 2016.
Haha!
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My thoughts.
Cameron has been pretty clever. by going for a referendum he is betting against the wet "out" end of the party, and he he wins they (Boris Johnston) are fatally damaged.
He has gone to Europe, and despite what the kippers say, has obtained some "headline" wins
- The City has been given freedom to operate - City types will now rally behind the stay vote
- We are still out of Schengen - no nasty illegal isis types getting in
- We are still out of the Euro
- All those nasty Europeans stealing our jobs wont get the same benefits as us (funny 7 years takes us just past the next election)
But most of all He has today planted the seed that we can go to Europe and negotiate anything we want in the future (even if that is in fact not the case)
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>> But most of all He has today planted the seed that we can go to Europe and negotiate anything we want in the future
In the strongest way possible, absolutely correct.
It was getting out of control and I was getting very concerned about how far it was going to try to go with the UK just falling into line without resistance.
That has stopped. Now if we can just get a really close vote where IN narrowly wins that'll be just perfect.
That way the EU and its minions will stay careful. For his contribution to this alone Farage was worthwhile.
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I don't think Johnny Expats should be allowed to comment on this thread.
Oh, wait....
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S'ok, your name is not Johnny. Nor is Baldies.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 20 Feb 16 at 16:00
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Is this the whole of the UK?
Do the Scots get a 'aye or nay' of their own?
Would be interesting if they vote 'IN' and the UK as a whole votes 'OUT'...
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>> Is this the whole of the UK?
>> Do the Scots get a 'aye or nay' of their own?
>> Would be interesting if they vote 'IN' and the UK as a whole votes 'OUT'...
>>
Its a UK vote. And that why the SNP dont want this referendum in the first place, SNP economic plan is dependent on EU hand outs. And who says the jocks want in?
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 20 Feb 16 at 13:01
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>> I vote IN
>>
MD votes OUT
Is there a shake-it-all-about option?
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That bit was a hypothetical question, Zero.
The Jocks and the Frogs have always been a bit too pally in my opinion. Auld Alliance, and all that...
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>> That bit was a hypothetical question, Zero.
You can be sure that the SNP will be shouting loudly about it.
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>> You can be sure that the SNP will be shouting loudly about it.
>>
The SNP are like small dogs and small children. It's when they're quiet that you worry, because they're up to no good.
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If you live in Cape Town in South Africa why do you have an opinion.
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>> If you live in Cape Town in South Africa why do you have an opinion.
He wants to be able to ship his 92 year old mother over here.
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Because I was born an Englishman, and have therefore won the lottery of life.
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>> Do the Scots get a 'aye or nay' of their own?
Scottish population is probably under 6 million (estimated around 5.4 million in 2014). That is not even as much as Boris's mayoral town.
I find it ironical that the SNP can't stand being part of the UK, but are very keen to be ruled by the German-French owned EU alliance.
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>> I find it ironical that the SNP can't stand being part of the UK, but
>> are very keen to be ruled by the German-French owned EU alliance.
>>
Ironic, perhaps, but not particularly surprising. They smell money.
"You've forgotten the grandest moral attribute of a Scotsman, Maggie, that he'll do nothing which might damage his career."
J.M. Barrie
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That same argument is with the SNP.
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>> No idea what the question will be
>> on the ballot paper yet, but you can be sure it will be careful worded
>> to get an IN vote.
>>
Question as recommended by Electoral Commission and accepted by Parliament
"A ddylai'r Deyrnas Unedig aros yn aelod o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd neu adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd?
Aros yn aelod o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd
Gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd"
Or in English
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union"
My vote will be to leave.
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Cameron sounded feeble to me, hearing the end of his speech just now. As a close, a call to action, it was utterly unconvincing. The best he could do was to say we would be stronger and safer in Europe, with no basis given, and that the "leave" route is a risk, a step into the unknown, and so on.
Fear, uncertainty and doubt in other words, the sales technique employed when there are no worthwhile benefits to shout about.
The fact that he has always been so transparently pro-EU meant that he was clearly the wrong person to be negotiating, and would never get anything irrevocable and worthwhile. They saw him coming. All he had to bargain with was the conjured up threat that he needed enough to satisfy the doubters.
Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic, and makes the whole country look silly. Merkel must be doing a jig.
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>> Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic, and makes the whole country look silly. Merkel must be doing a
>> jig.
For those of us who are happy with the status quo, its no problem.
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Cameron done good. The rest went along with his demands in the end and Angela got some nice chips. He got what he wanted and I thought his following public speech was excellent, with only momentary glances at notes.
Presumably the "Inners" are content to support the EU's excesses, such as the CAP and the appalling waste involved in running the union, the most blatant instance being the absurd periodic transfer of the whole apparatus to Strasbourg and back to satisfy the French.
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>> Presumably the "Inners" are content to support the EU's excesses, such as the CAP and
>> the appalling waste involved in running the union, the most blatant instance being the absurd
>> periodic transfer of the whole apparatus to Strasbourg and back to satisfy the French.
>>
Certainly not. But it's simplistic to think that by leaving the EU we will no longer be affected by such stupidities. The costs of such will be transferred to nations like the UK in the form of import tarriffs instead.
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>> Certainly not. But it's simplistic to think that by leaving the EU we will no
>> longer be affected by such stupidities. The costs of such will be transferred to nations
>> like the UK in the form of import tarriffs instead.
Tariffs which would be reciprocal if that's the way they wanted to play it. They sell us more than we sell them, I don't think we would have too much trouble.
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They sell to the world, of which we are but a tiny part, and a relatively unimportant one in the grand scheme of things..
The Yanks tried protectionism. Didn't work for them, and they have far more resources than we do.
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NEXT silly question...
who all gets to vote on this?
UK citizens in the UK only?
EU citizens resident in the UK?
UK citizens resident abroad?
All three?
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>> NEXT silly question...
>> who all gets to vote on this?
>> UK citizens in the UK only?
>> EU citizens resident in the UK?
>> UK citizens resident abroad?
>> All three?
All uk Citizens
Here is a contentious statement.
We voted to join the EU in 1975 - thats 40 years ago. So this vote will effect people for the next 40 years at least. Having said that anyone over the age of 70 should be BARRED from voting, because they have no stake in the long term future, and should not be able to dictate the future of those younger than them.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 20 Feb 16 at 13:30
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>>anyone over the age of 70 should be BARRED from voting, because they have no stake in the long term future, and should not be able to dictate the future of those younger than them.
No part in UK elections either then?
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>> >>anyone over the age of 70 should be BARRED from voting, because they have no
>> stake in the long term future, and should not be able to dictate the future
>> of those younger than them.
>>
>> No part in UK elections either then?
Yes because they have a 5 year shelf life. The EU vote has a 40 year shelf life.
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In, of course. The die was cast long ago.
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>> In, of course. The die was cast long ago.
But with a narrow majority to keep the pols on their toes and prevent overconfident monkeying around with the constitution (such as it is).
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I think it will be 55% to stay IN and 45% to LEAVE
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It won't last 40 years, or anything like it, on the basis that has supposedly been agreed - which is neither fish nor fowl.
UK will be shafted from arsole to breakfast if we stay in. Far more leverage if we aren't - they need us more than we need them is the bottom line.
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>> UK will be shafted from arsole to breakfast if we stay in. Far more leverage
>> if we aren't - they need us more than we need them is the bottom
>> line.
You have absolutely no way of proving that to be true in any way shape or form. You can't even produce a sliver of evidence to back that up. If that were the case the EU would be bending over backwards to keep us in, but according to you we have been shafted. How does that compute?
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 20 Feb 16 at 13:56
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I didn't say we had been shafted, you did. They have done what they calculated they needed to do, why should they do more?
After an 'in' vote, and the signatures on Cameron's fig-leaf agreement, we will get nothing.
The innies love to say that we will have a say if we stay in. How so?
The problem is amply demonstrated by a local parish council, the majority of whom seem to agree everything before the meeting. At a recent meeting, the chairman proposed something without discussion, it was voted through, and one member who knew nothing about it beforehand asked what the budget was! The chairman stated that she refused to discuss it with him, and another member said "it doesn't matter what you think because you only have one vote".
See?
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>> I didn't say we had been shafted, you did. They have done what they calculated
>> they needed to do, why should they do more?
>>
Yes you did. Its clearly there in black and white.
>>See?
No, I can't see. However I can see that you are now resorting to tales about a parish council in leu of providing evidence of how much better we will be outside the EU.
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I haven't seen much evidence from you either, and I won't play the juvenile debating game of asking you to provide it for what is clearly a matter of judgement and opinion.
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>> I haven't seen much evidence from you either, and I won't play the juvenile debating
>> game of asking you to provide it for what is clearly a matter of judgement
>> and opinion.
Based on that response I assume then even you have doubts about your position.
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>> Based on that response I assume then even you have doubts about your position.
Of course I have doubts. Only a fool thinks he knows it all.
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>>
>> >> Based on that response I assume then even you have doubts about your position.
>>
>> Of course I have doubts. Only a fool thinks he knows it all.
Ill count you in as a "dont know" then
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>> Ill count you in as a "don't know" then
Fair enough. Just bear in mind that it's the 'don't knows' who will decide.
The two thirds that have made up their minds, about evenly split, just cancel each other out:)
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"We voted to join the EU in 1975" - I didnt I was too young but I was taught in school that we were joining the EEC !
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The elderly will most probably vote OUT wheras the young will most probably vote IN.
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I reckon it'll be the opposite. Older people are generally more aware of the broader picture and would be more likely to recognise the benefits than younger people so in my opuinion that's where the Yes votes will come from.
Younger people tend to vote in a less informed and more selfish way, just looking at how they think the outcome will affect them personally.
That is, however, a massive generalisation and probably incorrect.
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"Cameron has got what he wanted..."
Not sure about that; he has had to make concessions. And in any case, even what he set out to achieve was nowhere near enough to satisfy many eurosceptics.
And how much of what Cameron has got is set in stone?
I'll be thinking for a while, but I doubt this will change my growing feeling we should be out.
Last edited by: Focal Point on Sat 20 Feb 16 at 13:54
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"Martin Schulz said the European Parliament could amend any deal done at today’s summit and would not necessarily even rubber-stamp it at all.
The president’s statement means that Britain may not get the deal agreed by Mr Cameron if it ultimately votes to stay in the EU."
Independent, 16th Feb.
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If the EC wanted to guarantee a rerun of any Referendum held in the UK with the resulting vote being 75% OUT, they can of course amend anything.
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OUT - none of these "concessions" addresses the real nub of the debate and are subject to so many unknowns and caveats and possible other state's vetoes, that they are meaningless.
Fiddling with migrants benefits is a smokescreen.
Only by leaving can we control the number and quality of immigrants WHEREVER in the world they come from.
We import much more from the EU than we export to them (even discounting the Rotterdam effect of onward shipping) that Europe's exporters will not countenance a trade war, or swingeing tariffs.
Out, we can negotiate trade agreements in our interests, not those of other European countries whose needs are not ours.
We can use the £55 million a day we send to Brussels and redirect it for OUR CHOICE of subsidies to our own farmers and ailing industries, such as the steel makers.
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We can use the £55 million a day we send to Brussels and redirect it for OUR CHOICE of subsidies to our own farmers and ailing industries, such as the steel makers.
Priceless! So Rog really does think we can go back to the 19th century.
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The Chinese have a steel industry of overcapacity of 400 million tonnes.
Rather the Chinese cutting their own steel production they are exporting the excess production all over the world.
Cut somebody tell me the price of steel. I do not know.
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The steel makers aren't Brits Roger, they're Indian or Chinese, I forget which (Tata wasn't it?). Happy subsidising them?
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To madf - Just so!
Last edited by: Roger. on Sat 20 Feb 16 at 14:18
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All our laws passed in the UK are wafer tight. The laws passed by the EU that effect the UK will have to be abolished.
That means thousands and thousands piece of legislation will have to be submitted to the UK Parliament in order to erase EU Law.
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THIS is what Britain could look in 1000 years like if we vote to leave the EU:
www.radiotimes.com/film/rmr6t/after-earth
I'm still going to vote OUT though.
:}
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Just wait for the fear factor being played in every Government "IN" propaganda exercise.
'Twill all be negative, you wait and see.
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I'm pro EU in principle, but not in practice as it is just a corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy. I will probably vote no as I believe a Brexit will probably mean the end of the organisation in it's present form and hopefully a reforming as a trading block rather than a Federal state.
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Apparently Bevan said of Harold Macmillan “The Prime Minister has an absolute genius for putting flamboyant labels on empty luggageâ€
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>> Apparently Bevan said of Harold Macmillan “The Prime Minister has an absolute genius for putting
>> flamboyant labels on empty luggageâ€
>>
Clever words from a loser to a winner.
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'Twill all be negative, you wait and see.
I suppose "Here's something that works to the advantage of the UK and Europe as a whole. Please don't wreck it" is negative in a way.
Incidentally, wasn't the 'in but not run by' line Major's, not Thatcher's?
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Right. Gove and Ian Duncan Smith are in the "out" camp. We only need Mr Pastry, sorry I mean BoJo to join their mob now. Nothing convinces me more to stay in.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 20 Feb 16 at 22:30
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Do you seriously reckon there's any chance of a "No" win? Especially based on the fact that Galloway (Peace Be Upon Him), Farage and IDS are backing it?
Bit puzzled that Gove would be behind a "no" vote, as he seems fairly principled (education in prisons, Saudi deal etc) and isn't doing a terrible job at it.
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>> Do you seriously reckon there's any chance of a "No" win? Especially based on the fact that Galloway (Peace Be Upon Him), Farage are backing it?
pbs.twimg.com/media/Cbm-22uWwAEV0Db.jpg
Political expediency at its finest.
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What is wrong with George Galloway. At least he speaks his mind.
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>>What is wrong with George Galloway. At least he speaks his mind.
I'm with ^this geezer/gal.
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>> What is wrong with George Galloway. At least he speaks his mind.
>>
That's what's wrong with George Galloway.
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"What is wrong with George Galloway. At least he speaks his mind."
What is wrong with George Galloway is his mind.
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How much has the situation changed since 1963? It was then that General de Gaulle made most of the case "avant la lettre" for our exit now. With doubtful motives but sound logic he blocked our attempt to enter the community by stating that,
"England (sic) in effect is insular. She is maritime. She is linked through her trade, her markets, her supply lines to the most distant countries. She pursues essentially industrial and commercial activities and only slightly agricultural ones. She has, in all her doings, very marked and original habits and traditions. In short, England's structure, England's very situation differs profoundly from this of the Continentals."
However he omitted to mention our important financial marketplace. He was demeaning of our agriculture, in which we could probably be self-sufficient, but possibly saw some threat to the CAP.
(Acknowledgements to the poster who send me the quotation ages back.)
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>> How much has the situation changed since 1963?
Essentially, all of the commercial and financial things he mentioned have changed, some of them brought on by our membership of the common market.
However the things he failed to mention specifically but alluded to without trying to cause offence (Unusual for him as it happens) Our arrogance, aloofness, and mistrust of europeans has not changed at all.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 21 Feb 16 at 11:02
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Agree with you on this mob Zero.All dislikable caracters.
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>> Right. Gove and Ian Duncan Smith are in the "out" camp. We only need Mr
>> Pastry, sorry I mean BoJo to join their mob now. Nothing convinces me more to
>> stay in.
Still no word from BoJo? I'd expected him to come off the fence in time for the lunchtime news but he's still schtum unless BBC and Guardian websites are behind the curve. He must know what he thinks; it's the politics and his chances of succeeding Cameron that's on his mind.
Meanwhile the usual swivel eyed loons are gettong out and about. Ian Dunkin Donuts is trying to persuade us that we're more at risk from Islamic terror in the EU than out of it. Work that one out!!!
I'm sorry Gove has gone with the Brexiters. I thought he was the only person who could be a worse Lord Chancellor and Secretary of Sate than Grayling. In fact, as FF says, he's been principled and undone several of his predecessors' excesses including the nonsense of the Criminal Courts charge.
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I am voting to stay IN. Are you and why are you voting to leave the EU.
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Looking at the odds from the bookies, to stay they are offering 3/1 on, to leave its 5/2. Personally i more faith in the bookies than any polls. The out campaign have got a lot of work to do.
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>> Looking at the odds from the bookies, to stay they are offering 3/1 on, to
>> leave its 5/2. Personally i more faith in the bookies than any polls. The out
>> campaign have got a lot of work to do.
>>
Bookmakers odds reflect the betting, nothing else.
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SQ 4 TLB
>> Bookmakers odds reflect the betting, nothing else.
>>
Along with the chance of (of whatever it is) it happening.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 22 Feb 16 at 01:35
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Bookmakers don't know the chance of something happening any more than the rest of us. The odds are set to ensure they make money (Or don't lose too much) whatever the outcome.
Re Boris, he is declaring his position in the Telegraph at 10pm tonight.
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>>Boris, he is declaring his position in the Telegraph at 10pm tonight.
Lets take bets on it shall we .. I'll go a fiver ew that Boris is in with the in crowd.
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>> Lets take bets on it shall we .. I'll go a fiver ew that Boris
>> is in with the in crowd.
>>
I'd agree, he doesn't want to be on the wrong side after the vote.
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If he backs 'out' and the result is 'in' then he'll have to do some fancy footwork to have a chance of succeeding Dave Snooty.
'In' is much lower risk for his ambitions. He doesn't need to challenge Cameron now to keep his leadership hopes alive.
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If we vote NO could somebody tell me what the consequence would be.
Also if we vote YES what happens to the Conservative Party.
By what is occuring the Conservative Party are split asunder. Six cabinet members are going to campaign NO. A large amount of grassroot Conservatives are going to campaign and vote NO.
If the UK votes NO what happens to David Cameron.
No wonder Boris Johnson is licking his lips. He knows a NO vote will lead to a leadership race within the Conservative Party.
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Cameron is standing down before the next election anyway. A no vote will merely hasten it.
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Looks as if BoJo is for 'out'.
Risky. Perhaps he is a conviction politician after all.
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from the BBC
"Conspiracy Two - Doing the rounds inside Number 10 and Number 11 (the chancellor's abode) so the theory goes, is that Boris is intent on becoming 'The Man Who Tried'.
What?
Well, as people await his likely final decision to plump for Brexit, Downing Street has concluded that he will go for Leave precisely because he is confident that they will lose.
This allows him to create the perfect platform for his leadership ambition - campaign for Leave, Remain wins, but Boris manages to then glide onto the leadership ballot as the man who gave it his damnedest, didn't quite pull it off, but can scoop up oodles of votes from the broken-hearted Tory membership, despairing in defeat, but ready to go over the top for their hero."
Boris was always a big fan of Machiavelli
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 21 Feb 16 at 16:25
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The BBC Five Live news at 4pm said that it understood that Boris would vote to leave......
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Given the choice, I think it is better to choose the unknown - then we have a chance to do things differently.
Staying in EU won't change anything so rather choose out and things might improve.
If Britain leaves EU, there would be a new trading agreement very soon and Europe won't really choose not to trade with UK.
Also, world's largest economies (e.g. USA, China, India etc.) are English speaking so UK has nothing to fear on economy side.
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>> If Britain leaves EU, there would be a new trading agreement very soon and Europe
>> won't really choose not to trade with UK.
Bit like Mr Micawber you mean?
Something will turn up.....
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If we vote to leave the EU there will be tariff barriers put up against us all over the world.
I do like anchor butter and Argentina beef. My favourite breakfast is Costa Rica banana and German yoghurt.
What about Dutch electric razors and Roberts radios. At least Roberts radios are manufactured in the UK
Also I like a tipple of Scotch whiskey and Scottish salmon.
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I thought the Chinese spoke Mandarin.
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>>What is whiskey?
Whiskey which is smoother than whisky: www.jamesonwhiskey.com/us/
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"I thought the Chinese spoke Mandarin."
Mandarin (the most commonly spoken) is one of several dialects. There is also Wu, Yue, Min and Cantonese - and others.
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Boris Johnson 1 David Cameron 0
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Fluffy is a floating voter.
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Don't float to much you might end up dizzy.>:)
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I have decided to vote IN on the referendum. Boris Johnson has made me realise that if he votes OUT I will definately vote IN.
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>> I have decided to vote IN on the referendum. Boris Johnson has made me realise
>> that if he votes OUT I will definately vote IN.
>>
You really are on a wind up.
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EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23rd June 2016 - MD
