If you were to encrypt your phone, an Android or Apple iPhone.... would you not assume that's it. Not accessible by anyone at all if lost so not a security risk?
If Apple can get into this encrypted iPhone for the FBI.... kind of says they only did a poor job of protecting your phones.
I know in this particular instance the request is to update the phone to allow for an infinite number of attempts at the security code. But how could you apply an update to a locked/encrypted phone? Unless Apple has a backdoor... and if they do then that's a big issue for them security wise.
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What if the phone owner was backing up the phone to iCloud.... then Apple might be able to help surely.
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>> What if the phone owner was backing up the phone to iCloud.... then Apple might
>> be able to help surely.
>>
Apple has confirmed that the FBI have been to their offices and their staff have given them all of the requested data that is held on their servers already and that their staff have been fully cooperative.
What Apple have been asked to do is to provide something that they do not already have - they have to create it. Once created it can be used to hack any iPhone or other device that uses the same encryption and that should not be allowed. This one terrorist's act would have the effect of rendering everyone's personal information open to scrutiny by the state.
Of course there are many who side with the Govt. because they see the word "Terrorist" and think that any company should bend over backwards to help. In helping, in this case, everyone else would be at risk.
For those that claim - "well if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear", I say get a video camera installed in every room of your home and car and feed it directly to the Govt. After all, if you have nothing to hide....
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I understand that demanding apple write a new software just for them and just for this purpose is constitutionally illegal.
The security and law enforcement services int he USA are becoming exceptionally lazy, preferring to solve things by throwing their weight around, rather than investigating properly.
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>> The security and law enforcement services int he USA are becoming exceptionally lazy, preferring to
>> solve things by throwing their weight around, rather than investigating properly.
>>
A habit which regrettably their British counterparts are only to ready to adopt.
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>> >> The security and law enforcement services int he USA are becoming exceptionally lazy, preferring
>> to
>> >> solve things by throwing their weight around, rather than investigating properly.
>> >>
>>
>> A habit which regrettably their British counterparts are only to ready to adopt.
Unfortunately, yes that is very true.
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>> This one terrorist's act would have the effect of rendering everyone's personal information
>> open to scrutiny by the state.
>>
Would it? When a Court gives a warrant to search a person's property in the course of an investigation, it does mean the police can search everybody's property. Surely that's the correct comparison?
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>> Would it? When a Court gives a warrant to search a person's property in the
>> course of an investigation, it does mean the police can search everybody's property. Surely that's
>> the correct comparison?
No its not, the comparison is that the post office showed them how to open a letter in transit, and now they can do it to every letter anytime all the time.
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>>
>> No its not, the comparison is that the post office showed them how to open
>> a letter in transit, and now they can do it to every letter anytime all
>> the time.
>>
But any self-respecting dirty tricks intelligence agency would know that anyway, by planting an agent to find out or kidnpping the man who knew. If there was really a war on, as they like to claim, they would do it anyway.
Did we get a court order before boarding that U-boat and lifting the enigma machine?
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If Apple has a device that's properly encrypted, that means full disk encryption (right?). So presumably there will be a small boot loader that's not encrypted but the rest is encrypted including iOs and apps.
If this is the case, then without getting into the device (i.e. entering the correct code/using the right fingerprint etc.) how can you change files on it? It's encrypted and one would hope the level of encryption is not easily hacked and Apple does not have a back-door.
What is what the FBI is asking is not possible?
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It is all very technical and I don't understand all of the details but apparently there is a custom processor or element of the processor that handles all of the encryption and keys.
Apple have been asked to build a version of the operating system that ignores the keys and turns off the kill switch that deletes data on too many failed attempts and add the ability to brute force attack the password without having to wait an hour between each incorrect entry.
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>> Did we get a court order before boarding that U-boat and lifting the enigma machine?
the yanks claim they did it.
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They know the pass code is four digits but face the problem that the phone erases itself after 10 incorrect attempts. They want Apple to create a custom version of iOS and digitally sign it as a release version, which they'll then use to "update" the phone. This special version has the 10 attempts limitation removed, allowing them to methodically try all 10000 possible codes.
Presumably there's a special way to force the phone to update as my iPad insists on the code being entered again before the update starts.
The above might be wrong by the way - skim read the article.
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I would have thought the phone needs to unlocked to receive the update. Anyone ever had an iPhone update itself automatically when it was locked? And if Apple uses full disk encryption you cannot plug it into a computer to update the operating system files.
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Does this issue involve mobiles made by other companies?
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>> Does this issue involve mobiles made by other companies?
It can. The iPhone encrypts data by default, Android can encrypt data, but its not a default on all makers phones. If you are the kind of person the FBI has an interest in, you will have encrypted your data, so it would be the same issue.
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It is my understanding that the delete feature after ten unsuccessful password attempts is not the default setting. On both I phones that I own you have to set that as a preference.
Maybe Moussaka Moussaka didn't do this.
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I dis-agree with the principle of FBI demanding this and back Apple all the way.
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I back Apple too.
If Apple has done the encryption properly, not even the owner who's forgotten their passcode should be able to get in. If Apple can override this then their encryption's weak or there's a backdoor. If Apple could apply an update (admittedly signed code) to a phone to help break in... well they have failed with their encryption.
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Apple do not even wish to admit that it can be done, never mind be forced to do it.
Their point is that irrespective of whether or not it can be done, they should not be forced to do it.
At the moment we have some illusion of privacy on our mobile phones. This would remove that.
Fundamentally do you believe that the Establishment should be able to access and and all of your data at any time provided they satisfy their own internal standards? e.g. in the US in the name of Homeland Security, they will simply be able to access your data having stated that they satisfied their own internal standards for thinking it was for the good of an investigation.
If you are comfortable with that, this this storm doesn't matter.
There's nothing about me that they shouldn't know, or that would bother me if they did know. But it is not their right to simply take that information without the appropriate reason, justification and authority as tested by the courts in each case.
On the other, and equally important, side is the fact that Apple must insist that they are forced to comply. Any minute degree of "voluntary" on their part and they will be sued from here to hell and back by their customers.
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Sure you're right in your penultimate para. Apple need to push Government to make a security-based case, as an exception to the rule, and only conceded after oversight by the courts.
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>>Apple need to push Government to make a security-based case, as an exception to the rule, and only conceded after oversight by the courts.
Problem is, if and when Apple give the FBI the software, will the FBI (CIA, NSA etc.) be entrusted to use it only the once?
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>> >>Apple need to push Government to make a security-based case, as an exception to the
>> rule, and only conceded after oversight by the courts.
>>
>> Problem is, if and when Apple give the FBI the software, will the FBI (CIA,
>> NSA etc.) be entrusted to use it only the once?
>>
No.
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www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/17/apple_iphone_5c/
Aha... so it turns out that the fact it's an iPhone 5c is crucial, as it lacks the hardware encryption gateway that the newer phones have. It appears that on a newer phone the security enclave holds the key and controls access / guess attempts. On the 5c that's handled through software.
I've no doubt now that Apple could use their own equipment to force a software update onto the phone at boot through USB.
The solution to all of this is to use a phone with hardware controlled encryption, or an alternative OS (Windows), or not be a terrorist.
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>> No its not, the comparison is that the post office showed them how to open
>> a letter in transit, and now they can do it to every letter anytime all
>> the time.
Surely the comparison is with tapping a landline?
The 'GPO' does it for them, but if they want to tap an individual's phone then they need some degree of authorisation.
Is Apple
- doing this for commercial reasons, playing to the "demand" from conspiracy-minded American public that the government and security forces are always up to something they shouldn't be; or
- for a 'principle'; or
- because Apple itself has made a judgement that the FBI has ulterior motives?
On the face of it, they should be doing everything they can to aid the investigation.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 29 Mar 16 at 14:03
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Now that would be an embarrassment for Apple...
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McAfee is an embarrassment, he's been described as a libidinous, drunken, perhaps insane, gun-wielding drug addict.
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He certainly looks suitably dissipated in that picture.
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>> he's been described as a libidinous, drunken, perhaps insane, gun-wielding drug addict.
Hmmmmm... sounds like my kinda guy...
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I see the FBI have managed to break into the bombers iphone and thus the legal action against Apple has been dropped.
Do we think this is genuine or maybe an "out of court settlement" between the two to save face on both sides?
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>> Do we think this is genuine or maybe an "out of court settlement" between the two to save face on both sides?
No. Bear in mind this particular phone was not 100% encrypted.
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>> >> Do we think this is genuine or maybe an "out of court settlement" between
>> the two to save face on both sides?
>>
>> No. Bear in mind this particular phone was not 100% encrypted.
Indeed, So far all the FBI have managed to do is to suck the physical data off the phone. To be honest everyone, including apple, has been scratching their heads wondering how it took them this long to get this far.
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>> I see the FBI have managed to break into the bombers iphone
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35914195
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On a lighter note, Donald Trump tweeted that Americans should boycott Apple products...
Gotta love the reply.
pbs.twimg.com/media/CbsDAr1XIAA3mJC.jpg
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>> On a lighter note, Donald Trump tweeted that Americans should boycott Apple products...
>>
>> Gotta love the reply.
>>
>> pbs.twimg.com/media/CbsDAr1XIAA3mJC.jpg
>>
Sigh.
Hardly a debate carried on at the highest intellectual level.
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>> Hardly a debate carried on at the highest intellectual level.
I dunno. 'Wankpuffin' has a certain literary flash and glitter to it.
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It's also a word that Great Aunt Mildred hasn't yet learned to be shocked by.
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Indeed, I think it's high time we had a replacement for pink fluffy dice...
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A wankpuffin dangling from your mirror would certainly be a conversation piece.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Tue 29 Mar 16 at 14:40
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I have a nice painted wooden puffin badge in four colours, an inch or so tall, on my lapel. It's just an ordinary puffin though, not a wank one.
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>> >> Hardly a debate carried on at the highest intellectual level.
>>
>> I dunno. 'Wankpuffin' has a certain literary flash and glitter to it.
>>
That, in itself, was the reason for posting it.
Like the reply to the plastic bag debate..
A paper suggested that the best way to avoid the 5p tax was to 'take the bags back next time you go shopping'
The reply was 'THAT IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT, YOU SHYTELARLKS!"
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Apple vs FBI - rtj70
