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According to BBC the Turks have downed a Russian fighter which was intruding into Turkish airspace Two parachutes believe to have been spotted.
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Turks say they gave repeated warnings, the Russians deny the aircraft was even in Turkish airspace.
Could get worrying....
Early reports give some background and highlight the complexity of the Syrian situation and the danger implicit in presenting it as a binary issue over ISIS. There are ethnic Turks in the Syria/Turkish border area who claim to have been victims of Russian bombing in support of Assad. The Russian ambassador in Ankara had been called in for 'an exchange of views' on the subject some time before this blew up.
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One of the pilots now believed to be in hands of Turkmen rebels in Syria.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983
Seems the russian's are claiming it was shot down from the ground, the turks claim an F16 shot it down. They plenty of experience in that area and they don't mess about with aircraft in their airspace.
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...s'aright; Dave's sending our plane in to sort things out.
:-S
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I thought were were all on the same side!?
Lets hope this doesn't escalate!
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>> I thought were were all on the same side!?
>>
You are either joking or seriously deluded. :-)
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>>You are either joking or seriously deluded. :-)
Nah, just a case of wishful thinking when it comes to ISIS!
Unfortunately it seems that one of the pilots has died.
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Turks have released a radar image showing the Russian plane twice crossing a narrow promontory of Turkish territory sticking out into Syria. The rest of it's track is over Syria.
Link below is to peace blogger Craig Murray's website. I've used it becuase it shows the image clearly rather than in endorsement of the source though I tend to agree his brief comment on this particular incident.
www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/11/the-madness-of-war/
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This has been going on for a while, the Russians quite like prodding and pushing to see what sort of reaction they get. Normally a letter to an official or a one way chat. However the Turks gave them quite a few warnings since they've been overflying parts of Turkey without permission for a while. Looks like someone doesn't issue idle threats, I would imagine the Russians are quite surprised someone's actually followed through, I don't think they'll be in a hurry to repeat the exercise.
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It's well published that we've been regularly sending up fighter jets to keep close tabs on the big Russian bombers which have been approaching the UK's air space.
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>> It's well published that we've been regularly sending up fighter jets to keep close tabs
>> on the big Russian bombers which have been approaching the UK's air space.
Since about 1945, without any interruption.
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>> >> It's well published that we've been regularly sending up fighter jets to keep close
>> tabs
>> >> on the big Russian bombers which have been approaching the UK's air space.
>>
>> Since about 1945, without any interruption.
There was an interruption, around the time of glasnost, and the dissolution of the soviet union puppet states and the consequential dibbing out of military resources, but they came back quickly after Putin came to power.
Funnily enough, the same planes have been popping up more or less all that time - the good old russian Bear - the TU95. Has to be one of the finest bits of aeronautical kit ever riveted together.
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Not only Russian aircraft. There are also usually couple of survellience "trawlers" around, they have an electronic
Monitoring function and can tow sonar arrays.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11334836/MoD-forced-to-ask-US-for-help-in-tracking-Russian-submarine.html
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 24 Nov 15 at 16:11
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Oh well, we may not have to worry about replacing Trident.
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According to LiveLeak a Russian Rescue helicopter has also been shot down
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I'm sure I heard on the radio that both pilots landed safely but have since been killed by their captors.
Can imagine going through the experience of being shot down only to die at the hands of another.
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>> I'm sure I heard on the radio that both pilots landed safely but have since
>> been killed by their captors.
Heard that on 5Live about an hour ago.
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>> I'm sure I heard on the radio that both pilots landed safely but have since
>> been killed by their captors.
Bit dumb that, they had value. Unless of course they were shot trying to escape, then its fair game.
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I'd heard they were trying to shoot them as they parachuted down. I wonder if they were trying to bomb this area where there aren't any ISIL/ISIS??
It's a right mess isn't it in the region.
Two of the Paris bombers came through Leros on the day I was travelling back from Lesvos. I wonder how many might have come through Lesvos - there are hundreds of thousands who came via Lesvos. Spoke to quite a few.
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All we need now is for Russia to bomb the airbase where the Turkish jet fighters took off from and this thing will escalate dragging us, as members of NATO in.
There were reports in the papers last week of the wealth of ISIS gained from selling oil. Who to?
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>> There were reports in the papers last week of the wealth of ISIS gained from selling oil. Who to?
To everyone, including you and me. There's only one global oil market, noted on stage and screen for its startling, cigar-chomping cynicism, and it's ramrodded by the US.
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As I understand it the oil ends up in the black market, and is then 'accidentally' purchased by the major oil companies. The fuel we put into our car may well have come from an ISIS source.
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Great minds think alike Sheikha.
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>> As I understand it the oil ends up in the black market, and is then
>> 'accidentally' purchased by the major oil companies. The fuel we put into our car may
>> well have come from an ISIS source.
In some way it is "laundered" I suppose and as a fungible commodity, one barrel or tankerload of a given type of oil is then indistinguishable from any other.
I have read in a couple of articles that Erdogan's son is trading ISIS oil and I think Putin has accused Turkish officials of profiting from it.
Turkey needs watching - do they think they can provoke the Russians on behalf of NATO? If Russia retaliates then they could find themselves cut loose which would damage NATO as well as Turkey.
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>> Turkey needs watching - do they think they can provoke the Russians on behalf of
>> NATO? If Russia retaliates then they could find themselves cut loose which would damage NATO
>> as well as Turkey.
they do need watching, but this is the just the tip of the iceberg. They need watching because Erdogan is corrupt and on the verge of becoming an out of control dictator. If the location of the country wasn't Russia's weak underbelly and the gateway to the black sea we would have cut them adrift decades ago. As it is, the location is too important to upset them.
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I suspect Erdogan has ambitions to be the next Caliph. IS are his flag-bearers, seeking out weaknesses in democratic governments, funded by Sunni Saudi and supported by Sunni Turkey. Iran of course may differ.
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>> Oh well, we may not have to worry about replacing Trident.
>>
A deterrent is only credible if the opposition know it is viable. They had a spy ship off Cape Canaveral during our missile firings, and probably had one on station there all the time to monitor the American launches. There was one in the Orkney / Shetland area that would move south during submarine patrol handover periods during my time in that game.
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you didn't try and snag their towed array did you?
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 25 Nov 15 at 01:15
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>> you didn't try and snag their towed array did you?
>>
I could not comment on operational matters. :-))))
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Reports that both pilots have been shot as well as Russian soldier on helicopter rescue mission. This is not going to end well.
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Russians are likely to bomb those they were in the process of bombing when the plane was shot down, i.e. the Turkmen that killed the Russians.
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Shamelessly nicked from elsewhere:
====
President Assad ( who is bad ) is a nasty guy who got so nasty his people rebelled and the Rebels (who are good) started winning (Hurrah!).
But then some of the rebels turned a bit nasty and are now called Islamic State (who are definitely bad!) and some continued to support democracy (who are still good.)
So the Americans (who are good) started bombing Islamic State (who are bad) and giving arms to the Syrian Rebels (who are good) so they could fight Assad (who is still bad) which was good.
By the way, there is a breakaway state in the North run by the Kurds who want to fight IS (which is a good thing) but the Turkish authorities think they are bad, so we have to say they are bad whilst secretly thinking they're good and giving them guns to fight IS (which is good) but that is another matter.
Getting back to Syria.
So President Putin (who is bad, 'cos he invaded Crimea and the Ukraine and killed lots of folks including that nice Russian man in London with polonium poisoned sushi) has decided to back Assad (who is still bad) by attacking IS (who are also bad) which is sort of a good thing?
But Putin (still bad) thinks the Syrian Rebels (who are good) are also bad, and so he bombs them too, much to the annoyance of the Americans (who are good) who are busy backing and arming the rebels (who are also good).
Now Iran (who used to be bad, but now they have agreed not to build any nuclear weapons and bomb Israel are now good) are going to provide ground troops to support Assad (still bad) as are the Russians (bad) who now have ground troops and aircraft in Syria.
So a Coalition of Assad (still bad) Putin (extra bad) and the Iranians (good, but in a bad sort of way) are going to attack IS (who are bad) which is a good thing, but also the Syrian Rebels (who are good) which is bad.
Now the British (obviously good, except that nice Mr Corbyn in the corduroy jacket, who is probably bad) and the Americans (also good) cannot attack Assad (still bad) for fear of upsetting Putin (bad) and Iran (good / bad) and now they have to accept that Assad might not be that bad after all compared to IS (who are super bad).
So Assad (bad) is now probably good, being better than IS (but let's face it, drinking your own wee is better than IS so no real choice there) and since Putin and Iran are also fighting IS that may now make them good.
America (still good) will find it hard to arm a group of rebels being attacked by the Russians for fear of upsetting Mr Putin (now good) and that nice mad Ayatollah in Iran (also good) and so they may be forced to say that the Rebels are now bad, or at the very least abandon them to their fate.
This will lead most of them to flee to Turkey and on to Europe or join IS (still the only constantly bad group).
To Sunni Muslims, an attack by Shia Muslims (Assad and Iran) backed by Russians will be seen as something of a Holy War, and the ranks of IS will now be seen by the Sunnis as the only Jihadis fighting in the Holy War and hence many Muslims will now see IS as good (Doh!.)
Sunni Muslims will also see the lack of action by Britain and America in support of their Sunni rebel brothers as something of a betrayal (mmm, might have a point.) and hence we will be seen as bad.
So now we have America (now bad) and Britain (also bad) providing limited support to Sunni Rebels ( bad ) many of whom are looking to IS (good / bad) for support against Assad (now good) who, along with Iran (also good) and Putin (also, now, unbelievably, good) are attempting to retake the country Assad used to run before all this started?
So, now you fully understand everything, all your questions are answered!!!!
After today's target practice by Turkey, are they bad or good?
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Pretty bad. Putin may well bomb the Turkmen who are well bad for killing the pilots making Putin good although condemned by the Americans as bad.
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Putin can;t really attack the people who shot his plane down, they were within their rights. Well, he could, but I doubt he will.
On the other hand the guys on the ground who killed his pilots, assuming that they did, are just about to be bombed in little bits. Or shot. Or stabbed. Or attacked by drones. Or all of the above. They have made a pretty substantial life decision.
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I must say it takes a bit of bottle to down a Russian bomber. Personally I'd play safe and go for an Italian one, the worst they'd do is to jump up and down waving their arms and shouting.
Those crazy Turks, anything for a laugh.
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The Russians have been probing Nato air space for decades, testing to see just how far they can go. Turkey has previously warned them off, and has now acted to show they mean it.
Now they know how good the west's detection and tracking systems are, and we know how effective are missiles are. That's all useful information to have, which is what you need for a mechanism of mutual deterrence.
When you think you have enough information to be useful, you try it out on a little bit of jutting-out territory in an area where all sorts of mistakes and misunderstandings are happening all the time in the fog of war.
It's the Russians' standard way of operating, but it seems to take the west an awfully long time to realise that.
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>> Those crazy Turks, anything for a laugh.
So crazy, that as one nato country they invaded another nato country. Even the Spaniards are not excitable enough to try that one.
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>>
>> >> Those crazy Turks, >>
So crazy that despite creeping Islamisation in a supposedly strictly secular state, they want to join the E.U.
Even crazier, Cameron & Co want them to.
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>>A NATO intelligence wet dream.
Maybe so, and you obviously know more about these things than I do but, I could well imagine a situation where the Soviets (I like to call them that) shoot down a Turkish F-16 with an SS-400 and things getting rather heated between the two nations.
Thought-provoking little comment from a bod in the Huff:
"Turkey is trying to stop a coalition of allies forming between US, Russia, France etc to fight ISIS ,also powerful people in Turkey (like Erdogens son) are making $ millions from ISIS oil - Putin's forces have recently started bombing these convoys of tankers shipping the ISIS oil to turkey".
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>> Maybe so, and you obviously know more about these things than I do but, I
>> could well imagine a situation where the Soviets (I like to call them that) shoot
>> down a Turkish F-16 with an SS-400 and things getting rather heated between the two
>> nations.
Oh there's always the possibility of that. The int side will be happy (if it's true), the NATO aircrew might not be so happy ;-)
Putin's forces have recently started bombing these convoys of tankers shipping the ISIS oil to turkey".
>>
Everyone's filling their boots
youtu.be/hXvrfmzH05M
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>>Everyone's filling their boots
youtu.be/hXvrfmzH05M
Reckon I'd rather be vaporised than captured by the Pesgmerga!!
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>> >>
>> >> >> Those crazy Turks, >>
>>
>> So crazy that despite creeping Islamisation in a supposedly strictly secular state, they want to
>> join the E.U.
>> Even crazier, Cameron & Co want them to.
And even crazier than that, you are spouting a load of anti eu s***** again. No-one in europe wants them in, which is why they have been rejected, several times.
Whats not crazy is that you managed to get anti muslim rhetoric in again.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 25 Nov 15 at 13:35
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Here is a view on why the unthinking anti-Muslim stance effectively plays into the hands of ISIS in whatever small way. It's written by a Frenchman who was held hostage by them, and who drew some interesting conclusions.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/16/isis-bombs-hostage-syria-islamic-state-paris-attacks
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I completely agree that knee-jerk anti-muslim sentiment and rhetoric generally is counter productive and unhelpful.
So is bombing. Daesh cannot be bombed out of existence. It can only be eliminated when people stop wanting to join it, and at the moment we are supporting their recruitment campaign.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 25 Nov 15 at 14:11
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Excellent and interesting article Crankcase.
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Cameron's a liar then. Or is that called diplomacy?
goo.gl/zR39Iz (Torygraph - David Cameron: I still want Turkey to join EU, despite migrant fears).
And I would say that the promotion of conservative Islam in Turkey under Erdogan and the fact that Turkish schools now teach only Sunni Islam in religion lessons, despite Turkey being a secular state, is a cause for concern (for Turks, mainly).
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Public words: we want Turkey in the EU. Private sentiment: no we don't.
Approach: set unrealistic goals for Turkey to achieve. Looks like we want 'em whilst being sure we don't get 'em.
Call it lies, call it diplomacy, whatever suits. Roger and his ilk will never get it. The world's black and white to them, and what they fear is it getting blacker.
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>> Call it lies, call it diplomacy, whatever suits. Roger and his ilk will never get
>> it. The world's black and white to them, and what they fear is it getting
>> blacker.
Indeed. And fear is the greatest catalyst of evil.
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The statement the world expected ?
The surviving pilot of a Russian plane shot down by Turkey on the Syrian border has said no warning was given.
Cpt Konstantin Murakhtin told Russian television there was "no way" the jet could have violated Turkish airspace.
Russia said Cpt Murakhtin was rescued in a 12-hour operation involving special forces.
It is not clear what happened to the body of his co-pilot, who was killed by gunfire as he parachuted from the burning plane.
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>> Cameron's a liar then. Or is that called diplomacy?
yes and yes.
It was in Turkey, and the backdrop is trying to get Turkey to stem the flood of immigrants. He is not going to stand there and say, "we don't want you in the EU* but we want you to close the border" now is he.
(which when it comes to the crunch is what we vetoed last time)
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Briebart is right wing.
Last edited by: R.P. on Fri 27 Nov 15 at 10:32
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>> There y'all go............................
>>
>> www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/26/inshallah-turkey-reveals-eu-fast-track-membership-bid-starts-in-weeks/
>>
Oh it's a done deal then if Breitbollux says so.
I see no problems at all with their application.
Which is fine by me as I'd like a bit more competition to keep my excellent local Turkish barber's and kebab shop on their toes.
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>> I see no problems at all with their application.
nor do I in applying, it should be rejected however It would be a mistake to give Turkey full EU membership, its a border east too far, and an economic step change too much.
>> Which is fine by me as I'd like a bit more competition to keep my
>> excellent local Turkish barber's and kebab shop on their toes.
Probably cypriots masquerading as turks anyway
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 27 Nov 15 at 12:29
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Yes, I agree with your first comment - my comments were TIC.
You're probably right about Turkish Cypriots. We have a very nice Greek Cypriot locally who runs a smashing restaurant, he left his home on the wrong side of the frontier years ago.
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>> Probably cypriots masquerading as turks anyway
>>
....as Erdogan said to Putin........
;-)
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>> >> Probably cypriots masquerading as turks anyway
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ....as Erdogan said to Putin........
Not sure anyone is worried about the cypriot air force.
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Nikolai Primak? Isn't that Runfer's boss?
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I thought Runfer worked for Barratts...
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Fri 18 Dec 15 at 13:10
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Russian Plane downed by Turks - Bromptonaut
