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We've got one fitted now, but I don't think it pays for us to have one. Does anyone know ball park how much it would cost to go to a normal meter. Energy company says its the landlords to change (and their cost) if we want, LL says we should get it done free by the energy company.
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We inherited economy 7 from the people we bought our existing home from. While we were both working, and showering, running the washing machine, etc, earlier in the morning, it was giving a small saving. However, when we retired it was no longer economical.
For us, albeit quite a few years ago, we just contacted our energy supplier who immediately removed the economy 7 option and we reverted to their standard tariff. No visit, no cost, no change of meter.
Probably all changed now, though.
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Who is the customer, you or the landlord? They fit meters now that can operate on either type of tariff.
In fact we had Economy 7 for years. When I changed suppliers about 5 years ago to Ovo on a single tariff, they said I would need a new meter and it would cost me £100. In fact they never changed the meter and just added the readings together.
A couple of years ago I changed to Scottish Power. I told them I had an Economy 7 meter but wanted to be on a single tariff as I already had been with Ovo.
They said they would put me on a split tariff and swap it to single tariff after the account was set up. They never did, and I am still on a split tariff (SP being incompetent is normal for them judging by complaints).
It makes little difference to us so I left it, breakeven is at about 25% night rate units and that is exactly what we use. They did fit a new meter (no charge) and I should find it easier to swap if I want to. The new meter shows total units, day rate and night rate.
Incidentally- SP are notorious for problems, but one thing I have found is that I can change tariff with them anytime without penalty, and more importantly without involving any of their staff, using online servicing. I check the tariff options at the beginning of every month when I do the readings and I have changed tariff (dual fuel) five times this year as the prices have come down. It hasn't been worth changing suppliers. Currently paying 2.8p/unit for gas until next October, the cheapest I have had for at least 5 years.
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I'm are the customer, I think we use about 10% during the off peak hours. So it doesn't really pay. There seems to be more choice as well if you are on a single rate, we ended up with paying a standard charge for both gas and leccy. I think we'd be better off on a single rate, we can't change until january anyway but just trying to get an idea what to do.
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It's not just a matter of adding meter readings together. An Economy 7 meter has a separate outlet to a duplicate small consumer unit, mainly used for running storage heaters.
The point is that it has its own timer, so it automatically, but only, delivers Economy 7 electricity.
We have a dual circuit feeding the dishwasher, washing machine, and main immersion heater, so we just fill the appliance and turn it on, and it then automatically starts up during the night.
The ordinary circuits also attract the E7 rate, but you have to time those individually or at least be awake in order to take advantage.
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>>It's not just a matter of adding meter readings together.
It can be - if you don't have anything that is supplied only by the timeswitch-driven CU.
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>> >>It's not just a matter of adding meter readings together.
>>
Not literally, no, but adding the units together yes. Ovo did it for three years. I provided two readings and they worked out total units used. They must have had the sense to do the adding after they had worked out the consumptions individually because they didn't mess up when one of the readings went round the clock.
If there is more than one consumer unit here, I haven't found the second one.
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Before I got sidetracked by something more important, I was trying to have an Economy 7 meter replaced by a standard one. It appeared that many people at the companies do not understand the ins and outs. I got as far as this:
1. Only the big 6 are able to add the two readings together and put you on a standard tariff.
2. Cooperative Energy, my existing supplier, wants £100 to change the meter, but a smaller company, whose name I've forgotten, wants only £35.
I intended to go back and confirm the above, but have not had time.
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Ovo = not big 6. But it did seem to be an ad hoc sort of arrangement.
Scottish Power intimated I would have to pay for a meter change, but it hasn't billed me two years later. They did however fail to switch me to single tariff despite being reminded so I would have objected if they had charged for the meter. You just give up trying to get any sense out of Scottish Power after a while.
None of the ones I have dealt with seems to have thought through anything but the most straightforward scenarios. Although I expected the ad hoc arrangements for electricity to go wrong, Ovo didn't manage to send me a perfectly simple gas bill for a year (although it kept taking the monthly DD, and I had a large credit balance).
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I see from the EV forums that many of those buying electric cars are opting in, or back in, to Economy 7 for their overnight charging.
I wonder if having an Economy 7 capable setup in the house will become a minor selling point to the right buyer as time goes by, much as having a home charging unit for cars already is now.
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One of the reasons I was thinking of an EV was because I have solar panels but realistically I don't think I produce enough excess except in the sunniest months to charge the car. My house base load is somewhere around 500w and (for instance) right now I am producing just 1.2kW - and we have some sun. Total production today is actually at 7.5kWh which isn't too shabby at this time of year for my system.
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>>I wonder if having an Economy 7 capable setup in the house will become a minor selling point to the right buyer
Bemused: it's not a different sort of electricity. Any socket will supply economy 7 electricity only during the specified hours if it is provided with one of these. tinyurl.com/ouhwu6u
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I took from this thread you may need a specific sort of meter.
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Meter, yes. Installation cost possibly £100. On the value of a house?!
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When I bought my house it had a meter with two readings 0ff peak and other hours
The disadvantage of this is that whilst off peak is a lot cheaper the tariff you pay considerably more for the non-off peak electricity than you do if you simply have a standard meter with a single reading.
To benefit form the standard charge I needed to change the meter. My supplier, OVO, charged me £45.
I doubt that anyone who has not got storage heaters would benefit from a dual rate tariff.
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We've got an immersation heater however we don't bother using it. There's gas for CH and HW and an electric shower and there's no timer on the immersation heater so I'd have to get up and switch it on which isn't really practical.
I think that was the idea of E7 meters, you would heat hot water electrically when it was cheap in the night and then use it during the day?
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>>
>> I think that was the idea of E7 meters, you would heat hot water electrically
>> when it was cheap in the night and then use it during the day?
>>
Exactly. And you don't need to fiddle with a timer because that's the point of the dual outlet from the E7 meter. It does supply a different kind of electricity - it comes down different wiring and is only live during the E7 hours. (You can have a second booster heater if needed to top up hot water at other hours)
You can run anything on that circuit that you don't want to come on until the E7 rate cuts in, and it takes care of the timing for you. Obviously storage heaters make the best use of it, but anything involving heating that you can run during the night benefits too - cold-fill washing machine, dishwasher, greenhouse background heater, etc.
You could use the ordinary circuit, but each appliance would need a dedicated timer accurately set to the E7 hours.
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I'm not sure we've got anything that is connected so as to turn on when the cheap rate comes on we'd need timers for everything.
I'm not sure we could make much use of it anyway, we've no dishwasher no greenhouse. I don't think I'd want the washer on in the middle of the night, they aren't the quietest things in the world.
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For economy seven to be an economic proposition you have to use around 40% of your electriciy consumption at the off peak rate. You have to remember that non off-peak electricity is charged at a higher rate than a under normal flat-rate deals.
Best suited to households using electricity for heating and where the house is usually unoccupied by day.
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I think I've seen figures from 25% to 55% however we are nowhere near I think it was about 10% for us. Yes that's why I'm looking to switch to a single rate.
Not sure there's too many of those about?
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>>
>> Not sure there's too many of those about?
>>
More than you might think. Quite a few houses have elecrical heating systems and are occupied by couples out at work all day.
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>> More than you might think. Quite a few houses have elecrical heating systems and are
>> occupied by couples out at work all day.
>>
I suppose I would, I don't think I ever seen one that I can remember. When we lived in areas with no gas, everyone used lpg or heating oil. I wonder if they tend to be clustered together in certain parts of the country?
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>> I think I've seen figures from 25% to 55%
Depends entirely on the tariff comparison. After I told you 25% yesterday I compared the Scottish Power rates for single tariff and split tariff for the one year fix we are on. It was near enough 25% (actually a bit over mainly owing to an extra 4p a day on the standing charge for the split tariff but not worth worrying about).
I need to keep an eye on it though.
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>>I'm not sure we could make much use of it anyway, we've no dishwasher no greenhouse. I don't think I'd want the washer on in the middle of the night, they aren't the quietest things in the world.
Why not buy a dishwasher, a greenhouse, and a quiet-running washing machine THEN yoos could take advantage of the off-peak leccy.
:}
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>> Exactly. And you don't need to fiddle with a timer because that's the point of
>> the dual outlet from the E7 meter. It does supply a different kind of electricity
>> - it comes down different wiring and is only live during the E7 hours.
While that was the case with previous off peak tariffs such as 'white meter' there's no requirement for E7 to have a switched circuit. Certainly not present in either my current or previous home.
All electricity used during the off peak period is at the cheap rate so there's a saving running washer, dishwasher and tumble drier overnight. Many models incorporate a delay timer for exactly that purpose.
Whether there are significant savings unless you have electric space heating or hot water is a different question.
AIUI 'most' E7 meters can be run as standard meters by the simple expedient of adding the readings together. If a change is needed shop around between suppliers.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 Oct 15 at 09:25
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Many models incorporate a delay timer
>> for exactly that purpose.
>>
That's another point I'd forgotton about, the washer for example would still have to be switched on. You can power it up but nothing will happen until you press start.
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>>>> All electricity used during the off peak period is at the cheap rate so there's
>> a saving running washer, dishwasher and tumble drier overnight. Many models incorporate a delay timer
>> for exactly that purpose.
The scourge of modern blocks of flats, everyone running noisy machines when people are trying to sleep. Infuriating, I expect. Not a problem in detached houses, but I expect it could be troublesome even in semis/terraces.
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>> The scourge of modern blocks of flats, everyone running noisy machines when people are trying to sleep. Infuriating, I expect.
I'm told that the insulation in some purpose built flats is so bad that one can even hear the sound of someone next door stirring a cup of tea. Goodness knows what it must be like with neighbours in a flat above running their vibrating washing machine at three in the morning.
No doubt economy 7 can be a mixed blessing.
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>> I'm told that the insulation in some purpose built flats is so bad that one
>> can even hear the sound of someone next door stirring a cup of tea.
My Mother is in a modern pb block. As she's on top floor people above are not a problem but next doors TV or conversation are audible albeit not at a level you could listen to.
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>> The scourge of modern blocks of flats, everyone running noisy machines when people are trying
>> to sleep. Infuriating, I expect. Not a problem in detached houses, but I expect it
>> could be troublesome even in semis/terraces.
>>
When living in communal accomodation, I used to switch them off if they were making too much of a racket. Amazing what people used to leave in their pockets, pens; stones etc used to make plenty of noise.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 13 Oct 15 at 10:41
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>> My Mother is in a modern pb block. As she's on top floor people above
>> are not a problem but next doors TV or conversation are audible albeit not at
>> a level you could listen to.
I don't doubt it, Brompt. A very elderly lady acquaintance of mine told me a while back that the couple in the flat next door had complained several times about the volume of her TV, and as she wore a hearing aid I thought she may well have been guilty as charged. Anyway, despite the fact that the offending item had been moved away from the wall between the two flats, the complaints kept coming.
Next time I saw her she asked if I would give an opinion on whether or not I thought the volume (same setting as always, apparently) was extreme, and it wasn't. The problem, after a little poking and prodding, was that the party wall was only a stud wall, so little wonder the neighbours could hear her telly in their bedroom.
That's in a modern purpose built block. I could barely believe it.
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>>(You can have a second booster heater if needed to top up hot water at other hours)
In my world, you have one electricity supply and a timeswitch on the socket so that you run it at night by default but *can* run it during the day too if you like.
In your world, you have two electricity supplies. And a second booster heater if you want to top up hot water. And a second dishwasher if you want to run it during the day, and a second washing machine if you need to do an extra load.
I know which setup I prefer... (I accept that if you have storage heaters then that's a different situation and they should, indeed, have a separate circuit.)
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>> In your world, you have two electricity supplies. And a second booster heater if you
>> want to top up hot water.
If you've got the option of gas whether with a cylinder or instant hot water then such installations are probably not tempting. If there's no gas, and plenty places are off mains or lack it for other good reasons, then the dual element set up described by Cliff can be quite good.
The big element at the bottom of the cylinder runs on E7 so you start the day with a full hot tank. If it's getting tepid you press a button and the second element runs for 30 or 60 mins on a timer to give a 'top up'. As it's not heating the whole cylinder even on 'day' rate leccy it's not ridiculously costly.
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>> >>
>> And a second dishwasher if you want to run
>> it during the day, and a second washing machine if you need to do an
>> extra load.
>>
No, we use things called "plugs" on the end of the cables. Normally it is plugged into the E7 socket, but for an extra day-time load we move it to the adjacent socket to start immediately.
It's a bit like plugging the hoover into the appropriate socket, rather than having one in every room.
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"Incidentally- SP are notorious for problems"
SP have had horrendous problems. Lots of people in my area (of work) are legacy customers from the old MANWEB days which was taken over by SP years ago. In the last two years I have dealt with dozens of dis-gruntled customers who were being inaccurately billed for old meters that had been replaced. The CAB were given a direct line to a local Manager - he is very good, but as soon as he encountered metering he referred us to the Ombudsman. They are very good at resolving problems, and every successful referral creates a penalty for the company. When you used to phone the Ombudsman Menu option 1 was for SP customers. I phoned them yesterday and this had been removed....! SO I guess good news.
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>> "Incidentally- SP are notorious for problems"
Our metering problem was with ovo, it took months and months to sort out. They were okay, but every step would generate an email saying it could take upto 90 days to sort. With a few steps, I suppose thats why it took so long.
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I've had one case with OVO, a not very Smart Meter misreading. The customer service was reasonable....I would avoid small suppliers - they haven't got the infrastructure to deal with stuff when it goes wrong. I wouldn't touch them to save a few quid.
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I had Economy 7 up in Warleggan about 12 years ago and it worked out okay with the NS heaters being the owse was well-insulated and I used a multi-fuel stove in the evenings but, hoos evva heard of:
www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/economy-10/
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I had but CAB paid for me to do three days training on energy awareness. Got a City and Guilds certificate to prove it.
More on Economy 10 here:
www.ovoenergy.com/guides/energy-guides/economy-10.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_10
Don't think it's universally available.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 18 Oct 15 at 10:17
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The property in which we had four night storage heaters (one in the annexe) was a barn conversion that had an insulated cavity with thermalite blocks inside the olde granite walls.
The night storage heating in that sort of well-insulated property worked well, and was quite efficient and, had I known about Economy 10 I may well have considered that so as to give a heat boost during the day when the heaters were running out of juice, but of course, then there is the higher standing charges to con-sider.
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Economy 7 meter - Clk Sec
