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Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 16 May 15 at 20:42
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Farage cant be that similar to other leaders that resigned, Labour didnt refuse Ed's resignation did they? I must have missed Tim Farron begging Clegg to stay...
If you knew anything about Farage, you would know that his loyalty to UKIP and the cause is genuine, very much stronger than his desire to please journalists, they will write nasty things no matter what.
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I think the NEC convinced him that if they accepted his resignation, UKIP would crash.
Nuttall as leader?
Me no thinky.
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>>If you knew anything about Farage, you would know that his loyalty to UKIP and the cause is genuine
I don't doubt it.
>> very much stronger than his desire to please journalists
I am not a journalist. I am part of the electorate. As such, I was in the group that he promised he resignation to. He failed to deliver.
Don't misunderstand me. I don't think the mistake was remaining as leader. The mistake was promising to resign. insincere, impractical grandstanding.
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>>I am not a journalist. I am part of the electorate. As such, I was in the group that he promised he resignation to. He failed to deliver <<
You cited the Press response as a reason not to do what he did, I am just responding to that. He resigns from a position that he was elected to by UKIP members first and foremost.
>>The mistake was promising to resign. insincere, impractical grandstanding.<<
I think he was sincere but clearly someone said something to him that made him change his mind. I cant say with any certainty what that was but he looked pretty relieved when he said he was stepping down. We may have to wait for a book in a decade or so that tells us what it was though.
I have an idea what it may have been.
Last edited by: Stuu on Tue 12 May 15 at 00:52
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Well let's just hope that 6 months from now he is not suffering fton weariness and regretting the missed hiatus.
Sometimes you need to consider the long game.
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True and I think he should have had a break, although he may still have one of sorts, it isnt like he will tell us all when & where he is going.
I suspect that Cameron potentially bringing the referendum forward to 2016 played a part too, similar ( failed ) tactic that he used on the SNP.
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>>
>> I suspect that Cameron potentially bringing the referendum forward to 2016 played a part too,
>> similar ( failed ) tactic that he used on the SNP.
>>
Why failed? He got the No vote he presumably wanted. Bringing forward the EU referendum may do the same thing. Everyone (and UKIP) is assuming that an EU referendum would take us out - on the contrary it might well confirm our membership.
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Are you folks seriously saying that the SNP & allies did not want an independence referendum in 2014, the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn?
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>> Are you folks seriously saying that the SNP & allies did not want an independence
>> referendum in 2014, the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn?
The setting up of referendum got rather complicated over process and legality leading eventually to the 'Edinburgh Agreement between the UK and Scottish govts.
My recollection is that the SNP wanted the referendum to be in 2014 because of the Bannockburn issue. They wanted 'Devo Max' to be on the ballot too. The compromise was that they got their date but were restricted to a straight yes/no.
Devo Max was effectively conceded during the latter stages of the campaign when Better Together got the wobbles and wheeled Gordon Brown out to bolster their case.
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>>Devo Max
I do dislike the current need to come up with a nickname for everything. The one that really irritates at the moment is "Grexit".
I assume it is driven by the media aiming at people who find multiple syllables a challenge.
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>> I do dislike the current need to come up with a nickname for everything. The
>> one that really irritates at the moment is "Grexit".
IME these things have a variety of origins and usages. Some ar nicknames but others acquire the status of being a form of shorthand.
Anything ending in 'gate' is a media invention for sure, so is Grexit. Pretty sure I remember 'Devo Max' being used in government. When the next steps in Devolution were unclear it was a useful label for the solution where pretty much everything was devolved.
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I thought he offered to resign so that it would give UKIP the chance to elect the member that actually had the seat in Westminster to be party leader, he would have more "clout" in Parliament then.
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>> I thought he offered to resign so that it would give UKIP the chance to
>> elect the member that actually had the seat in Westminster to be party leader, he
>> would have more "clout" in Parliament then.
one seat is not clout.
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>>
>> one seat is not clout.
>>
Thank goodness.
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snipquote!!!!!!!
>> I have an idea what it may have been.
>>
>>
>>
Yes - by his "resign if I lose" statement, he gave a massive hostage to fortune. OTH I think at the time he said it he and a lot of others, thought that we would have MPs (plural!) in the HOC, in which case it would have been a sensible stance.
I think he would have been better advised to let his resignation stand and then, in September, put his name forward in the UKIP membership leadership vote.
It's only 4 months away to September andm he would have unloaded the gun being pointed at him in the MSM about his "un-resignation".
Just my 2c worth.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 12 May 15 at 14:05
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It's not long now to the summer recess in the UK, and probably in Europe. Not much will get done at Westminster apart from the Queen's Speech, so he could easily take a long break, and I hope he does. He needs it.
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So far as I can tell the European Parliament is working until 24th July. 2 months to go. What are we paying him for? He'll get nice long summer hols at the end of July.
And what has Nigel Farage go to do with Westminster anyway? Have they had a by-election already?
I think I'll tell my boss I need a break, and will see him in September. That should go down well.
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I suspect Roger that potential leadership contenders looked at the reaction from supporters and didnt think any of them could command a strong mandate while members still wanted Farage, whether or not he was on the ballot.
Also, would any of the key contenders want to stand against him if he was on the ballot? I doubt it. It would only work if members had accepted that he wasnt coming back.
I was happy with the situation either way, positives to both.
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Get back to work, Farage, never mind the "break":
twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/597523363167379459
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On the face of it the letter Alanovic quotes makes some good points but reading the comments underneath, some of the facts are simply untrue.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 12 May 15 at 12:17
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>> On the face of it the letter Alanovic quotes makes some good points but reading
>> the comments underneath, some of the facts are simply untrue.
The letter to NF that's on Twitter? So far as I can see the only fact being challenged is whether his health is 'dandy'. That he remains an MEP with a duty to attend in Brussels/Strasbourg to justify his salary seems not to be disproved.
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>>reading the comments underneath,
I couldn't see any comments which disputed anything other than one comment about his health. Am I looking in the wrong place? Twitter is not something I ever use.
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I didn't analyse it deeply but wasn't the gist that he and his wife would earn £50k from the EU parliament roles over the summer therefore he shouldn't be taking a break, but the comments pointed out that his wife isn't paid by Europe and even if she was the earnings wouldn't be that much.
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Oh, well I didn't see that comment at all. I'll try again.
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That's the Telegraph stringing together ifs, buts and maybes to make a story.
Not that he won't face difficulties, but this story looks like its made up from various different conversations, comments and thoughts.
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>> this story looks like its made up from various different conversations, comments and thoughts.
My dear, how despicable!
Really FMR, you surprise me sometimes. How on earth do you think newspaper stories are made, by people on the run with their minds on something else and a deadline looming?
It's not as damn easy as people think.
Incidentally, on the unfortunate anti-Semitism kerfuffle, apologies to Bromptonaut who understood what I meant instead of simplifying and exaggerating it as an excuse for getting nasty.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 12 May 15 at 13:01
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>> Incidentally, on the unfortunate anti-Semitism kerfuffle, apologies to Bromptonaut who understood what I meant instead
>> of simplifying and exaggerating it as an excuse for getting nasty.
No need to apologise to me AC. I'm content that I was right to stand my ground whatever people might think. Trouble is practically all seem to conflate the question of (a) whether there was any anti-Semitic sub text in parts of press, campaign literature etc and (b) some sort of wild conspiracy theory that Labour lost because of it.
I say (a) possibly; (b) certainly not.
If you google the subject there are a few articles in the respectable press on the subject.
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You two really don't want to let the subject go, do you.
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>> You two really don't want to let the subject go, do you.
I'm quite happy for it to go and wouldn't have posted again except for need to acknowledge and comment on AC's apology.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 12 May 15 at 13:28
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"You two really don't want to let the subject go, do you"
Ah, leftyism in action - it's like two squabbling branches of the same religion. Sensible observers, meanwhile, recognise that they're both wrong.
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>> "You two really don't want to let the subject go, do you"
>>
>> Ah, leftyism in action - it's like two squabbling branches of the same religion. Sensible
>> observers, meanwhile, recognise that they're both wrong.
>>
So a bit like having 25 volumes dedicated to discussing the merits of a right wing political party.
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"So a bit like having 25 volumes dedicated to discussing the merits of a right wing political party."
Quite possibly - but the key word is religion - socialism is a religion.
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So unlike Kipperism then. I see.
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Thinking about it, wasn't St Nige the Martyr (peace be upon him) raised from the dead after three days? Sounds familiar.
Get thee to Brussels, Farage, and do what you're paid for.
Last edited by: Alanović on Tue 12 May 15 at 14:37
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Farage is no mug he is well payed in Brussels.Farage is UKIPS icon.When maybe or if we have a referendum on Europe again he will be speaking his mind.
I wonder if I am allowed to vote?
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>> You two really don't want to let the subject go, do you.
>>
>>
>>
They cannot have a reasoned debate with anyone who disagrees with them - and win :-)
Apologies to A B and C.. or rather A C and B
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>> You two really don't want to let the subject go, do you.
Stop wittering FMR. That's the post of a qualified prat, unworthy of you.
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>>That's the post of a qualified prat<<
Well, that's as may be but as an unqualified prat I'll make another one!
We're now on Volume 25 of a dedicated UKIP thread.
I don't see a dedicated Tory/Labour/Lib Dem or indeed SNP thread.
The naysayers on here never hesitate to pull Kippers to bits siting every reason imaginable.
madf goes positively apoplectic at the mere mention of them:)
Most of you said they never stood a chance.
Farage coming back as leader shouldn't then make one iota of difference.
So, since UKIP commands this much discussion and attention, please tell me what it is you're all running scared of, just what is it you fear, because I genuinely don't understand.
Pat
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This is a thread entitled "UKIP Debate" inside a discussion forum called "Non-Motoring".
What did you think would be in it?
And madf apoplectic? I must have missed that.
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>> So, since UKIP commands this much discussion and attention, please tell me what it is
>> you're all running scared of, just what is it you fear, because I genuinely don't
>> understand.
Because they stoke up divisiveness, create scapegoats and bogeymen and then prey on peoples fears.
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Wouldn't put too much weight on the 'UKIP' bit In practice this tends to be a thread for general political chat. It would be thoroughly confusing to have threads for each of the parties. More than enough duplication/crossover between this thread and that for the GE.
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.
>> madf goes positively apoplectic at the mere mention of them:)
>>
Thanks for your concern Pat..
My blood pressure and heart action are still normal..
UKIP remind me of a quack doctor selling an elixir which will make you young, fit and irresistible to the opposite sex. The only trouble is nobody has taken it before, it has obvious huge side effects which will make you very unwell and the results are not guaranteed.
The supporters of it are believers .. like the apostles going out to preach teh gospel. Real believers. .. I admire them for it.
But reality is, if we do leave the EU, the impact on the UK's biggest source of overseas profits will be huge . Many of those businesses will probably leave the UK and tax revenues and employment in that industry will fall dramatically..
And UKIP deny it will occur..
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>>
>> And UKIP deny it will occur..
Nahh, like Mr Micawber, something will turn up.
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For real believers in fairy stories and belief that there is one cause for all their problems have a wee look north of Hadrian's Wall, they could give UKIP lessons in blaming the bogeyman.
They even manage to persuade enough people in a small area to vote for them so they get elected in some numbers.
Painful to see as an exile since I started my working life.
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For real believers in fairy stories and belief that there is one cause for all their problems have a wee look north of Hadrian's Wall, they could give UKIP lessons in blaming the bogeyman.
They even manage to persuade enough people in a small area to vote for them so they get elected in some numbers.
Painful to see as an exile since I started my working life.
OOPS double post, dont know how that happened, MODS any chance you can delete one please
Last edited by: commerdriver on Tue 12 May 15 at 15:38
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For a 'one policy' no mark party they certainly stir up emotions none of the others do.
Is that a good thing, yes, I think it is.
If nothing else UKIP were the reason so many people who had never bothered to vote before, voted this time, regardless of the way they voted.
Many of them, like me, feel that the present voting system is very, very flawed in a lot of respects and unless it is altered in some way before the next election, will just go back to the idea that it's a waste of time.
If that happens it's certainly not representative of the feelings of all who voted this time and wouldn't be a good thing.
As a country we ALL have to be proud of what we have, where we're from and most of all, our heritage and independence.
The electorate should be able to vote in a way that can be protected.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Tue 12 May 15 at 15:45
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>> As a country we ALL have to be proud of what we have, where we're from and most of all, our heritage and independence.
Yes Pat, I hope it doesn't shock you that I agree.
I'm glad too that bouncing Nige has been dragged back into the fray because he's amusing and personable. He'd never get my vote but I'm more than happy to see him there.
We're in Europe, we're Europeans. But there are limits! STFU about changing the voting system! Proportional would screw us up for ever, multiple coalitions in succession... ghastly. Just like the other damn Europeans.
:o}
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Madf is a very sensible cat.
And as for 'not wanting to let it go', there's nothing I'd like more. Everything of any value has been said several times among all the idiot dross.
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What does apoplectic mean, does it have anything to do with propolis?
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>> What does apoplectic mean, does it have anything to do with propolis?
>>
Apoplectic means I go red with rage , have to sit down . I use propolis to apply to the red bits.. (images of a baboon spring to mind..:-)
Meanwhile for all UKIPPERS, her's a fascinating bit of gossip
www.breitbart.com/london/2015/05/12/farage-forced-through-leadership-confirmation/
and this as well
order-order.com/2015/05/12/carswell-fighting-ukip-hq-over-650000-short-money/#_@/VrHQSmyiUYha5g
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But worthy of note Stuu, that's exactly my point, what's the worry here?
Pat
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>>I use propolis to apply to the red bits.. (images of a baboon spring to mind..:-)
Well I'll be a monkeys uncle.! apitherapy.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/honey-for-hemorrhoids.html
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Talk about coming to a sticky end....
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Apoplexy:
1. Sudden impairment of neurological function, especially that resulting from a cerebral hemorrhage; a stroke.
2. A sudden effusion of blood into an organ or tissue.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 12 May 15 at 18:44
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>> Meanwhile for all UKIPPERS, her's a fascinating bit of gossip
>>
>> www.breitbart.com/london/2015/05/12/farage-forced-through-leadership-confirmation/
Another take.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/12/nigel-farage-i-want-to-fight-byelection-in-labour-held-seat
TBH it looks increasingly like one of those old fashioned 'People's Democracies' where the functionaries had to determine what the supreme leader really wanted from a set of gnomic and contradictory statements.
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>>
>> Another take.
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/12/nigel-farage-i-want-to-fight-byelection-in-labour-held-seat
>>
>> TBH it looks increasingly like one of those old fashioned 'People's Democracies' where the functionaries
>> had to determine what the supreme leader really wanted from a set of gnomic and
>> contradictory statements.
>>
You can be so caustic :-)
Be interesting to see what happens if he lost again...
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From the man direct...
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32713659
To be honest, I'm not sure what I think; contrived or not, back track or not.
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From what ive heard, a number of valued people in the party said that if he goes, we go too. The collateral damage of him stepping down may well be what swayed the NEC to make quite such a hard play to retain him.
Makes alot more sense to me than the conspiracy theories and anyone in politics knows how key some of those people who work just below the leadership level are, especially in a smaller party.
Last edited by: Stuu on Tue 12 May 15 at 21:48
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>>if he goes, we go too..
Well that's not good. Its not either a commitment to the party or an endorsement of what's left if Farage leaves.
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>> >>if he goes, we go too..
>>
>> Well that's not good. Its not either a commitment to the party or an endorsement
>> of what's left if Farage leaves.
>>
One trick pony party ain't going to last if that's the case..
It's not a party then .. it's a cult.
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>>One trick pony party ain't going to last if that's the case..<<
It has last 20 odd years, only some of those with Farage as leader, so er, no.
You dont join UKIP because you like purple & yellow, you join it because you fight for a cause you believe in. The party is mearly the vehicle through which you fight that cause and if you one day find you care more about the party than the mission statement, its time to go anyway.
Too many in politics get hung up on their party rather than the purpose of that party existing, plenty in Labour like that right now.
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>> >>One trick pony party ain't going to last if that's the case..<<
>>
>> It has last 20 odd years, only some of those with Farage as leader, so
>> er, no.
>>
I think it's different now, 20 years ago it wouldn't matter who was running ukip. But it matters now, if they only had one bloke capable or with public profile to do the job it wouldn't matter. But they are more high profile it matters now and it does look like the leadership cupboard is bare beyond NF.
It does look like the members have thought we're sunk without him. And I don't say this as someone who is overly pro or anti ukip, just an observation.
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>>But they are more high profile it matters now and it does look like the leadership cupboard is bare beyond NF.
It does look like the members have thought we're sunk without him<<
I wouldnt say it is bare, but at this stage Farage would cast an impossibly long shadow over whoever followed him when members still think he should be leader. Until members are certain he isnt coming back, I doubt anybody would want the job.
There are plenty of potential leaders actually but many have been in the party only a few years so far and would likely welcome a few more to prove themselves before going for the top job. UKIP members are very, very hard on defectors and newbies, they place a strong emphasis on length of tenure.
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UKIP members are very, very hard on defectors and
>> newbies, they place a strong emphasis on length of tenure.
>>
I take it you are having a laugh.
See defectors Reckless and Carswell .
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>>I take it you are having a laugh. See defectors Reckless and Carswell <<
I know my members better than you, count on it.
Welcoming defectors is one thing, handing them the party leadership is something else entirely.
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>> UKIP members are very, very hard on defectors and
>> newbies, they place a strong emphasis on length of tenure.
>>
Sounds a delightful organisation to join, if you're a Tory minister with a penchant for the dominatrix. Who on earth wants to join an organisation which takes a very, very hard line on newcomers?
Hopefully UKIP will soon 'reach out' to Robert Kilroy-Silk to rejoin them and lead them. Although St Nige (peace be upon him) is doing a fine job right now.
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>>Who on earth wants to join an organisation which takes a very, very hard line on newcomers?<<
The cautious kind, politics is full of ambitious people and you need a fair period of time to know what they are about before you give them any responsibility. It is just common sense.
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Well that works out well for UKIP doesn't it. Never a gaff from their collective maw now, is ther?
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>> >>Who on earth wants to join an organisation which takes a very, very hard line
>> on newcomers?<<
>>
>> The cautious kind, politics is full of ambitious people and you need a fair period
>> of time to know what they are about before you give them any responsibility. It
>> is just common sense.
>>
So Douglas Carswell is going to get no moeny until you know him for a long time.
Stu.. re-read your posts. and THINK.
You make UKIP sound like an organisation run by a tyrant..
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>>So Douglas Carswell is going to get no moeny until you know him for a long time.
Stu.. re-read your posts. and THINK.<<
What has money got to do with running for the leadership?? You point is nonsensical, you dont need money, you need the support of MEMBERS who ELECT you.
Perhaps you need to re-read the whole thread, I am discussing the desirablility of running for leader as a recent defector/member, irrelevant to Carswell since he explicitly ruled himself out of that contest.
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There was an interview with him on BBC News at 6 yesterday and FWIW he was in Brussels 'doing his job'.
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>> There was an interview with him on BBC News at 6 yesterday and FWIW he
>> was in Brussels 'doing his job'.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32713659
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Seems rory stewart has been shuffled off to defra, as one of gov biggest critics in the defence arena, if you were cyncial it does look a bit like a critic being moved on. Whatever the reason I think he'll be a lose from his previous role in the defence committee.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32707357
WE'RE DIFFERENT !11!!1!!!1!!!!
Meh.
(Although I'm not too impressed with the Beeb referring the 'the source' rather than a named person in the article).
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 12 May 15 at 18:24
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"Nigel Farage has become a "snarling, thin-skinned, aggressive" man".. UKIP's election campaign chief has said in a powerful attack on the party leader.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32732129
Economics spokesman Patrick O'Flynn told The Times Mr Farage risked turning the party into a "personality cult".
Mr O'Flynn, an MEP, said Mr Farage's behaviour also risked the party being seen as an "absolute monarchy
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I bet he wishes his resignation hadn't been "rejected" and that he just stood for leader in September.
I assume that will be represented as press victimisation of UKIP fairly soon?
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>> I assume that will be represented as press victimisation of UKIP fairly soon?
Callers/texters to BBC suggesting exactly that during 5Live's Drive programme.
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Saint Nige is on Question Time tonight. Should be interesting
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>> Saint Nige is on Question Time tonight. Should be interesting
I said earlier that IT WASN'T VERY INTERESTING WHEN IT CAME TO IT.
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Our Kippers are very quiet.. perhaps reality is dawning?
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We waited all day yesterday for the onslaught of criticism madf, but strangely it didn't come!
I'm sure you have a view on yesterdays events?
Pat
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>> We waited all day yesterday for the onslaught of criticism madf, but strangely it didn't
>> come!
>>
>> I'm sure you have a view on yesterdays events?
>>
>> Pat
>>
Pat
At times like these I am reminded of what Napoleon said about people making mistakes.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
Not that I regard Kippers as "enemies".. Just normal human beings making a big mistake:-)
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>>perhaps reality is dawning?
Well it was always going to happen. I'll happen to all the political parties as the media start trying to wind things up to get some stories, its just happening to UKIP first.
Its does rather suggest that Farage mismanaged this whole "quit if I don't win thing". It was knee-jerk grandstanding and he should never have said it. Having said it he should have been more creative and thoughtful in choosing his way out of it.
I shouldn't think we've seen the end of this story yet.
Equally concerning is that there doesn't seem to be anyone else capable of stepping up. One doesn't want buzzards circling, but neither does one want a one-man band.
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>> Equally concerning is that there doesn't seem to be anyone else capable of stepping up.
>> One doesn't want buzzards circling, but neither does one want a one-man band.
>>
That is my feeling about them. I know stu answered that point. But still I think UKIP's main man has been overplayed and it's in danger of becoming UKIP=Nigel Farage. I think the earlier they get some more people into the limelight the better they'll be.
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Haven't watched it yet. I glanced at it and caught Brian May reminding people that the Conservatives exist to look after the undeservedly rich, and Labour should be for working people, pressed the record button and went to bed.
I have a stinking cold and none of the parties seems to have said what it would do about that.
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>>and caught Brian May reminding people that the Conservatives exist to look after the undeservedly rich
I wonder if he includes himself in that group.
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He also said something about the working classes shouldn't be aspirational.
What a dumbass hypocritical little sheet head he is.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 15 May 15 at 10:36
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>> He also said something about the working classes shouldn't be aspirational.
>>
>>
>> What a dumbass hypocritical little sheet head he is.
>>
Actually the point he was making was that "aspirational" is now used by the Conservatives to solely mean aspiring to make a lot of money which is seen to be good and laudable.
His view was that it is possible to aspire to do other perhaps more fulfilling and socially desirable things than just making money and that those who aspire to such things as caring and social work should be rewarded by society by paying less tax.
Seems a fair point to make.
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It is now sorted as far as I am aware. Pretty standard post-election scuffles.
If you think I will be coming on here to pick a 'side', well good luck with that, I am on the side of the members, make of that what you will.
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>> It is now sorted as far as I am aware.
Not as far as the party is aware. This will run and run
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>> >> It is now sorted as far as I am aware.
>>
>> Not as far as the party is aware. This will run and run
>>
I have ordered 50kgs of popcorn and several crates of lager...
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>>Not as far as the party is aware. This will run and run <<
Spoken like a true armchair observer with no knowledge of the situation.
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>> >>Not as far as the party is aware. This will run and run <<
>>
>> Spoken like a true armchair observer with no knowledge of the situation.
I am sure you have inside knowledge of whats going on in the upper echelons
NOT
Back to your ant pile and keep shovelling the dirt.
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>>I am sure you have inside knowledge of whats going on in the upper echelons
NOT<<
I know a darn sight more than you, although that isnt setting the bar very high granted :-)
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>>I am on the side of the members, make of that what you will.
The members that want Farage or the members that do not?
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>> Seems a fair point to make.
When you have a shed load of money, its hypocritical.
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Your definition of hypocritical is a curious one. Aren't the rich allowed to have views?
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>> I glanced at it and caught Brian May
He's always badgering someone or other.
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For a change it seemed a more balanced audience than #bbcqt usually manages.
I think our man did well.
I think Tristram Shandy, or whatever his name is, (a putative Labour leader?), was a shouty pillock saying Labour needed to re-connect with ordinary people and then spouting some unintelligible Westminsterspeak as how to do it!
Brian May was very, well, hairy.
Jeremy Hunt was surprisingly emollient.
The Economist lady, Zanny, was eminently forgettable.
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>> The Economist lady, Zanny, was eminently forgettable.
The best of a mediocre bunch if you ask me. Good looking too.
It was a very dull QT though.
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UKIP Debate - Volume 24 - Stuu
