Police searching for suspected gunman Raoul Moat have released details of a car they are looking for.
A black Lexus IS200 SE with licence plate V322 HKX
.......... the Lexus was very noisy, had damage under its bumper, two alloy wheels and two "space saver" thin wheels.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/10517837.stm
|
What a terrible situation for the Police to be in around that area.
This is the side of the job we never think of when we criticise what they do and how much they earn.
Pat
|
I have just posted on the most prolific poster that I believe that Zero is on holiday very close to where the car was found.
The countryside around there is very wild with many places for a fugitive to disappear .
There seems to be a lot more to this story than is currently in the public domain.
|
>>There seems to be a lot more to this story than is currently in the public domain.>>
That's because yesterday the media respected the police request not to divulge certain information.
Strange though that two apparent "hostages" went on to be charged with conspiracy to commit murder earlier today.
The man who first spotted the Lexus this morning while out waling his dog also had a conversation with three men, one of whom could well have been Moat and the others the "hostages".
The police apparently reacted very rapidly after his information reached them.
|
Zero posted previously ......
I am staying about 5 miles east of Rothbury. I got an OS 1:50,000 land ranger map of the area so am just sorting out where to go, with the aid of the map and Google earth and my previous post and replies on the matter.
Was it him out walking Fifi I wonder???? Could we have a world exclusive?
|
...I am staying about 5 miles east of Rothbury...
As Ronnie Barker one remarked in Porridge: 'Dangerously near.'
|
>> 'Dangerously near.'
I agree, this Raoul fella should take precautions ;-)
|
...I agree, this Raoul fella should take precautions ;-) ...
And what about the poor Bobbys?
Having one loose cannon on the patch could be deemed unfortunate, but two?
|
|
Zorro will be ok as he's taking Nicole along and she's a black belt in Origami, I hear.
|
We should check out the cut of this Moat's boots.....
That Lexus was a right shed......scabby inner city bodykit etc...
|
>> I am staying about 5 miles east of Rothbury. I
Two good reasons to avoid the area, then.
Ted
|
'I know I said I wasn't a danger to the public in general, and I didn't mean to be. But then this bloke and his dog came by and started jeering at my blinged-up Lexus, just happened to have two get-you-home wheels on it because I got two punctures, all right? It wasn't the sort of jeering you could ignore either. Really nasty, know what I mean? There was this tall bloke too in iguana-skin bootees what was laughin fit to bust. I'd of laughed meself if it wasn't my motor e was havin a go at.
'Anyway that's why I changed my mind and blew up that hospital. Serves you all right for ruinin me life.'
|
I respect the work of the police but the recent Cumbria episode and now this highlight the failings with all the technology, firearms teams and tactics at their disposal.
ANPR/floods of personnel- It was a member of public who found the car.
Helicopters- Thermal imaging etc.- Can't find him. Though they think they have him cornered.
2 mile exclusion zone- Yet BBC/Sky copters allowed to fly over search area. Maybe the police are hoping they see him first.
21st century policing methods, yet these two individuals manage to commit their crimes with impunity. All before the spectre of cut backs. Don't look good for the future.
|
I hope everyone (including Zero!) near there are safe. Apart from the offender and his associates. Someone hand delivered his letter to the police too - they could have told them where he was then.
To save tax payers money, it will be cheaper if he does get 'suicide by cop' but I hope no more officers or public are injured. What price a couple of high velocity bullets vs. a trial and life in prison.
I think in this instance he has already proved his guilt hasn't he. What I do wonder is how he was let out after serving the standard 50% term with this mental state.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 6 Jul 10 at 19:11
|
2 mile air exclusion zone - you missed the detail, 5000 feet minimum height....
I've ridden through that area - not much in the way of CCTV let alone ANPR or any other acronym.
The Police depend on the public for information or has the whole basis of British Policing changed.
|
let alone ANPR or any other acronym.
Come on PU. Watch the news and you'll see a mass of Volvo traffic cars flooding the area. All with ANPR I presume. You talk as if its all Dixon of Dock Green. We are led to believe the police have a plethora of technology and training on their side. If so then use it.
Last edited by: Cpt. Flack on Tue 6 Jul 10 at 20:24
|
|
In car ANPR only works if something drives past it, just like every other camera. There will be hundreds of square miles to cover and a finite number of Officers. The Police are using their training, which you clearly know nothing about.
|
|
midlifecrisis if you were really a product of her majesties finest you would realise people on here get tired of being talked down to
|
|
Cpt Flack - high time the fire service service were measured on their results vs. their training. Perhaps why it takes so long to put a fire out, why the financial losses are so large, why they don't get there sooner, why their tactics don't work faster, why they can't predict where the next fire is going to be, why they can't convince more people to install alarms, what do they do in their downtime (we know there's an awful lot of that!) why they don't take on other functions in their downtime since their paid by the taxpayer, why they steadfastly refuse to change their shift patterns (we all know it's so that they can do two jobs after a good nights sleep), why do they keep going on strike, should they have the right to do so in public service etc etc...
|
nice post woodster
and i agree
i lost a truck 15 years ago because the fire service cut the doors and A pillars open
it was only a dash fire
i couldnt claim insurance as it was 3rd party only
cost me a lot they did as i had to let my partner go
|
Woodster,
"Perhaps why it takes so long to put a fire out,"
Procedures. Other risks within that fire that could harm the public or us.
"why the financial losses are so large"
Are they. Where are your statistics. The insurance companies do not jump up and down when cuts are made to frontline services or heaven forbid during the two national strikes over the past 100 years, so they must be happy with what we do. Community safety projects have reduced the numbers of domestic damage. Commercial buildings, i.e. warehouses are designed to be "lost", as they are so cheap to build and replace.
" why they don't get there sooner"
Maybe you're in an area manned by retained (volunteer) firefighters. You have to account for them being paged, getting to a station at normal road speed then get enough crew to man the truck which then leaves on the call.
In London (whole-time) where I am you will get a truck within 5 minutes from time of your call and a second within 8 minutes. Quicker than any attendance times set by London Ambulance or the Met.
"why they can't predict where the next fire is going to be" ??
We don't have a crystal ball on any station in case it falls on someones foot. H&S. :-).
"why they can't convince more people to install alarms"
We try extrememly hard. Advertising, door knocking. We even install free alarms. There is only so much you can do to convince people to have smoke alarms and reduce fire deaths, that is our current community safety aim.
"what do they do in their downtime (we know there's an awful lot of that!)"
On night shift maybe. But how would you like your local station drilling, reving engines, making noise or coming around to fit a smoke alarm at 2.00 am.
On days it is filled completely. No cards, no darts, no snooker. I hate to dispell the old illusion. Because we cannot fit all the activities akin to our roles the Brigade is looking to extend the working day so we can fit it all in. Without callouts, it consists of training, equipment testing, H&S, and community fire safety. Visiting homes , giving fire information to those occupiers and installing alarms. We also visit commercial premises and update risks on our ground. This time of year, many school fetes and community projects to visit. I will be at the Acton Carnival this Saturday if anyone wishes to say hello. No time for down time on days.
"why they steadfastly refuse to change their shift patterns"
No-one likes change. Especially when the shift pattern has not changed since 1979. But many of the 52 Brigades around the country have changed shifts, and in London we are on the verge of changing. Funny how so many jobs, including the police, have adopted our 4 on 4 off pattern.
"we all know it's so that they can do two jobs after a good nights sleep"
Stand down currently is from 12 midnight to 0640. We are allowed to rest. Believe me in 28 years I have never rested as I do at home. I am always knackered after a night shift.
You don't include callouts then? As the pay was so bad many years ago, many guys took on extra work to make ends meet. The latest recruits are better paid and I find that these younger guys do not do second jobs any more, because they don't have to. I do not do any extra work. But even police officers moonlight, and what about postman and other shift workers. It is or was not confined to the fire service. Given the opportunity, many people would take the chance to make extra money if they are not at work.
"why do they keep going on strike"
Two national strikes since 1947.
" should they have the right to do so in public service etc etc..."
Morally no. We have not been banned from voting democratically for any strike action. If our pay had been linked say to the police in 1977, maybe we would have relinquished the right to strike. As we became a poorer cousin, it has become a bargaining tool. During the last strike, many incidents were attended by striking firefighters that went unreported due to the government "D" notice. Some of the Met boys might know of a area car with two trapped PCs in N. London that were attended by local sation strikers to free them. Other RTAS were attended by the military, but the local plods went to the nearest stations and got them and their equipment to attend on numerous occasions across the country. Not just the last strike in 2003 but also in 1977/8. And many fires were attended by guys using breathing apparatus sets in backs of cars. We do have morals, even on strike.
And Woodster, if you happen to live in London why don't you pop in to your local station and chat with the staff there. They would only be too happy to discuss these points with you further. Or any station local to you. And that invitation is open to anyone on here. We would only look forward to a visit.
|
Woodster and Cpt Flack
How about you two try and understand each others jobs a little more.
You may both be 'in the force' albeit different ones, but there will always be things we don't understand about how others jobs work.
Sometimes we have to accept that things are not as they appear to be to the casual onlooker and that overall, both jobs are done very well.
Pat
|
|
I've given him an invite Pat. I think he knows more about my job. It appears he was having a dig for the sake of it.
Last edited by: Cpt. Flack on Wed 7 Jul 10 at 10:05
|
|
Heal thyself Doctor! Check out your post at 1905 on the 6th. Didn't you expect a response? As for downtime and school fetes, honestly, I ask you.....
|
...midlifecrisis if you were really a product of her majesties finest you would realise people on here get tired of being talked down to...
There are some pennies you can keep on hammering, but the damn things never drop.
|
|
How does ANPR help find this person? They found the Lexus. They are now looking for a person.
|
...How does ANPR help find this person?...
It doesn't.
And as has been pointed out, it really is wide open spaces up there.
Anyone from south of Leeds will find the geography hard to grasp.
No speed cameras, hardly any CCTV cameras and certainly no ANPR ones.
Last edited by: ifithelps on Tue 6 Jul 10 at 22:16
|
>> ...midlifecrisis if you were really a product of her majesties finest you would realise people
>> on here get tired of being talked down to...
>>
>> There are some pennies you can keep on hammering, but the damn things never drop.
>>
>>
>>
I don't continually post on subjects I know nothing about, constantly criticising and moaning. So you'll forgive me if I'm a little robust in my replies.
|
>> midlifecrisis if you were really a product of her majesties finest you would realise people
>> on here get tired of being talked down to
>>
I take it you know everything about military tactics as well Bellboy?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 7 Jul 10 at 09:52
|
...I take it you know everything about...
I don't think anyone is claiming to know everything.
What I object to is that any questioning of a public service is met with a patronising pat on the head accompanied by: "You don't know what your are talking about".
Telling the questioner to put another sheet of tin foil on his head is not a reply.
It is just ignorant.
That sort of copperspeak might go down on a storm in the police canteen - if there are any still open - but it has no place on a public forum.
Tin foil, I ask you, what does he thing I am - a roast chicken?
|
>>5000 feet minimum height..>>
Modern video camera zoom lenses are incredibly powerful - a recent TV programme about the work of the Metropolitan Police showed one of the helicopter crews observing suspicious activity in a garage from around a mile away.
|
>> Metropolitan Police showed one of the helicopter crews observing suspicious activity in a
>> garage from around a mile away.
But you need to know where to look... As said large areas without any sort of cameras etc. Needles in haystacks etc. And the police on approach need to be extra careful.
As I said above I hope the locals are safe... some allowed home this evening. I bet Zero had not bargained for this activity.
|
>> 21st century policing methods, yet these two individuals manage to commit their crimes with impunity.
>> All before the spectre of cut backs. Don't look good for the future.
No disrespect meant Captain, but you have criticised the police in both situations, saying that they should have done better, but I have not actually heard you say what you think they should have done or not done, and explained why it would have made a difference.
They have a huge amount of expertise, so I am slightly dubious that you would be able to add anything to the tactics they have employed (rather than just say that, in your layman's opinion, that they should have done better).
What advice would you give them?
|
>> a lot more to this story than is currently in the public domain
This is still the case. The two "hostages" arrested this morning now seem to have been accomplices to Saturday night's shootings...
It'll all come out in the wash.
|
So best case scenario for the public costs is two trials and two sentences. Worst case cost wise is three.
Worst of all is he injures anyone else first. But if they find and corner him then stopping any food and water might keep an siege short.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 6 Jul 10 at 23:25
|
>>>Metropolitan Police showed one of the helicopter crews observing suspicious activity in a garage from around a mile away.
The ability of modern systems and lenses is truly staggering. Obviously the cutting edge is still classified but here's a fairly recent declassified example.
Big Ben from 47,000ft and 120 miles away!
i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg72/SealgairC420/BigBen.jpg
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 7 Jul 10 at 07:58
|
|
If Moat has already taken his own life, he might not be found for months or even years.
|
Maybe i'm wrong but I really do not think he is suicidal and I have my suspicions that he has escaped the immediate area which he appears to know very much better than the police who are hunting him.
|
...I really do not think he is suicidal and I have my suspicions that he has escaped the immediate area which he appears to know very much better than the police who are hunting him...
He's managed to outwit them for five days, and reports are now using the word 'failed' for the first time in reference to the investigation, as in: 'police have failed to find Moat'.
A bit harsh, but the boys in blue are going to have red faces if Moat pops up 20 miles down the road back in Gateshead.
|
I know that area quite well and - save for the speed cameras in Longframlington and Longhorsley, and the regular speed trap in Wooler, what hope would the police have?
Just as with the Cumbrian incident there's a limit to how much you can do without a crystal ball. He had no previous record of violence, I understand.
I must say, I think I'd be asking to bring in the army if I were chief constable. Plenty of them on the Otterburn ranges, and a couple of thousand of them crawling around Rothbury would soon find him. Good training for them...
|
>> I must say, I think I'd be asking to bring in the army if I
>> were chief constable. Plenty of them on the Otterburn ranges, and a couple of thousand
>> of them crawling around Rothbury would soon find him. Good training for them...
>>
Police V Army friendly fire incident, I would like to see the PR team handle that one!
|
It looks like the only previous conviction so far in the public domain is one offence of possessing a bladed article.
The other acts of violence are alleged by family members, but they don't appear to have resulted in convictions.
There could be other stuff on the record we don't know about.
|
I think there are now hundreds of armed officers... maybe using the army would be better than tying up so many police. The army might have people trained who can actually find him better.
As for his history of violence, didn't he go to prison for assaulting his daughter?
|
|
BA have no legal remit to return fire if they encounter him. Some cracking jokes about him on the BMW GS site - couldn't repeat them here of course :-)
|
>> I think there are now hundreds of armed officers... maybe using the army would be
>> better than tying up so many police. The army might have people trained who can
>> actually find him better.
>>
I would not be surprised if a few people have travelled from the Hereford area to assist, we will never know.
|
|
We will never know but I am sure there are employees of this country with the skills in tracking that would be very handy here. But as PU, under normal rules the army do not have permission to return fire. Although I am sure this is overridden when necessary, e.g. SAS have been called in to resolve hostage situations before now using lethal force.
|
>> But as PU, under normal
>> rules the army do not have permission to return fire.
I have been armed in a civil situation in the UK and I can assure you I had the same rules of engagement as the police.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 7 Jul 10 at 15:28
|
>> using lethal force.
You can say that again. Up to and including extra-judicial execution.
You don't have to be a wimp who believes human life is 'sacred', or a legal wonk who thinks such things are always just wrong, to shudder a bit at the thought of those characters coming after you.
|
|
AC, I don't think you have to be a hardened criminal to think that it is a nice idea that we as members of the public are protected from nutters; otherwise I shudder a bit at the thought of that character coming after me.
|
|
I think you'll find that a hostage situation would only ever have been handed over to the military if it had political connotations. Police forces now have their own trained personnel for rapid entry in domestic hostage situations for precisely the reason that they cannot be handed over. But you can guess where the basis for the tactics used and trained comes from. However, nothing to stop outside expertise being used to assist in tracking, if that's a feature of this hunt, but some very serious considerations are then raised about protecting any non police personnel. Risk assessment anyone?? Anyway, if you want to learn more search 'police dynamic intervention' on t'web.
|
|
The main objective would be to interrupt any supply sources that Moat may have and to starve him out, or reduce his energy. That takes a while and depends on knowing who might be providing sustenance to block any aid. Unless Moat blunders, he may stay hidden for a long while. Ambush, counter-ambush, is not easy, and is carried out at a slow pace in dense forest.
|
|
Many police officers in firearms teams are amateurs playing at being soldiers. I would like to see ex-soldiers drafted into the police direct for this purpose only. They would have already had the training, the discipline and the experience of shooting and handling guns. Many cops coming through the ranks into their firearms teams are trigger happy gunslingers in my view who like to swan around with their big boys toys at their sides who think they are in American swat type teams. Its all kudos and testosterone.They outnumber those out there without guns yet they can't organise a drink up in a brewery.
|
Evidence based view or an armchair based opinion ?
Sorry can't let it go......trigger happy ?
Last edited by: Pugugly on Wed 7 Jul 10 at 22:57
|
|
A number of high profile cases that were referred to the IPCC. But if you wish to edit that part, feel free to do so.
|
>> Many cops coming through the ranks into their firearms teams are trigger happy gunslingers in my view
If there was irony in this i totally missed it and it went completely over my head :-(
Has your view been blurred by alcohol? It's completely unsubstantiated opinion, and well into raving lunatic territory. I hope you're just drunk!
|
|
Evidence based, or armchair opinion. :-)
|
|
Don't need to edit it, it's an opinion, I was questioning it in a non-mod way.
|
Aha! i gotcha now!
Glad i put the irony bit in now, i wasn't sure though. I'll blame it on the hour of the night ;-)
|
"I would like to see ex-soldiers drafted into the police direct for this purpose only."
I am afraid to say that many ex soldiers do not make the grade as Police Authorised Firearms Officers. That is not to decry our fine troops its just that thy are completely different disciplines, tactics and mindsets.
But then you would already know that.
|
|
You could always pick the best from the bunch FC
|
|
Plenty of ex-forces go into the Police - Not sure if it's still the case but Constabularies are under an obligation for their intakes to be 20% ex HM Forces, so I suppose they have as much chance as any other Police Officer for going on to be authorized shots....
|
My take on this very sad story is that I sincerely hope the man is taken alive and gets the help he surely needs,
Failing that, he should take his own life IMO.
|
Did I hear correctly on the news that they have now arrested a further 2 people with helping the guy?
If that is the case, he could really be anywhere and until the police get a known sighting they really are searching for the proverbial needle in the haystack?
I wouldn't like to be a copper there just now, especially the ones in the fields etc, you would want 360 degree mirrors attached!
|
Yes they have arrested a total of 4 for allegedly helping now. A question to the police earlier at a press conference was along the lines... 'someone we have spoken to that is an aquantence of Moat says the campsite was a setup and he never stayed that can you comment'. The police would not answer.
But with two arrested near this area, the ex girlfriend saying she thought he might go there.... was this a setup to put the police off the trail. He really could be anywhere if more people are helping!
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 8 Jul 10 at 15:27
|
"Plenty of ex-forces go into the Police - Not sure if it's still the case but Constabularies are under an obligation for their intakes to be 20% ex HM Forces, so I suppose they have as much chance as any other Police Officer for going on to be authorized shots...."
Not seen any evidence of that. To the contrary infact. Crying shame; fit disciplined people with strong values and skills.
AFOs have to go through a selection process and role relevent shooting assessment and that's where the different disciplnes surface. Many do of course make it through selection and training and make good AFOs.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Thu 8 Jul 10 at 18:10
|
...Many cops coming through the ranks into their firearms teams are trigger happy gunslingers in my view...
I have limited direct experience of armed police officers.
'Trigger happy gunslingers' would be an apt description of a firearms unit I once spent an hour or two with.
We were hanging around a police station waiting for something to happen, and to say boredom got the better of them would be putting it kindly.
I was unimpressed to see them playing with their sidearms, and their Dirty Harry patter did not inspire confidence, either.
That was a good few years ago, and my armchair opinion is that training has improved since then.
I certainly hope it has.
|
I am ex-forces and became a Police firearms officer. The standard of weapon handling required in my Police role far surpassed that in the Forces. As did the continuous assessments regarding judgement. What we were always aware of was that regardless of circumstances, there would always be plenty of 'DILT's who would criticise and condemn as loudly as they could.
(In case you're wondering. 'DILT's: Harry Enfield once had a character..."You don't want to do it like that...you want to Do It Like This") Everyone is an expert, even those that haven't got a clue.
|
i have a trolley jack at work and im not afraid to use that either
unfortunately many people wouldnt have a clue where to stick it
its down to common sense and or training
if you aint got either then maybe a job fitting skirting boards on council properties is the best way forward.......
|
I've been watching Sky News coverage of a police/community meeting in Rothbury.
A man with an estuary English accent asked a question on behalf of 'visitors who were already here'.
It wasn't, perhaps it was, could it have been?
Zero? Zero?
|
from today the police are offering £10,000 reward for information leading to the capture of the gunman
if he isnt caught by this time next week the reward goes up to £20,000
locals have dubbed it the mid-week raoul over. :}
|
I would think the standard required for the army with weapons is way below a weapons trained police officer. Nothing against the excellent work the armed forces does though!
Your typical 'solider' will be trained to engage an enemy etc. and know how to open fire in a battle situation. The police will almost always be dealing with a situation with public nearby.
I think this is one reason why weapons are adapted from being automatic capable to single round - every round fired by an officer needs accountability. Not something the army should be worried about.
|
"Your typical 'solider'"
I don't think you get my drift. You choose the cream of the military to incorporate into a firearms team, snipers, ex SBS or SAS at the top of their game. Maybe the training is above average according to MLC, but you at least had the previous experience and discipline from the forces unlike PC Bloggs straight from school or from PCSO status with no life experience in the topic
Who took out terrorists in NI, Iranian Embassy siege and other hostage situations around the country and the world. No not regular firearms police. Special forces, who have now been drafted in on this because of their experience and training.
|
This is a situation where highly trained special forces may help. And they help train special police teams anyway.
But this is an exceptional circumstance.
|
June 17th 1982. Barry Prudom shot two police officers dead, wounded one more and shot dead a civilian in North Yorkshire. The Hunt lasted 17 days during which time he travelled between North Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.
archive.thisisyork.co.uk/2001/12/13/293466.html
Massive Police hunt which highlighted weaknesses in the Police response to firearms incidents. Masses of unarmed Bobbies searching tracts of North Yorkshire with limited firearms cover.
Police drafted in Eddie McGee an ex SAS soldier with tracking skills.
Police firearms training and tactics have come a long way since then and as an ex Firearms Trainer I can speak with some authority on the subject.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Thu 8 Jul 10 at 23:27
|
>> You choose the cream of the military to
>> incorporate into a firearms team, snipers, ex SBS or SAS at the top of their
>> game.
Might be a problem there, in that the headcount of the SAS and SBS together is about 500 people, whereas the total number of firearm's officers is close to 7,000.
>> Maybe the training is above average according to MLC, but you at least had
>> the previous experience and discipline from the forces unlike PC Bloggs straight from school or
>> from PCSO status with no life experience in the topic
Different training and experience. The police don't typically need to have expertise in demolitions and free fall parachuting, likewise the SAS don't have much call for controlling suspects in the street, the ins and outs of policing and dealing with the public.
>> Who took out terrorists in NI, Iranian Embassy siege and other hostage situations around the
>> country and the world. No not regular firearms police.
There are over 21,000 police operations involving the use of firearms every year, including hostage takings. They don't, and in fact couldn't, just "call in the SAS" every time there was such an operation.
You've cherry picked the Iranian Embassy and then been very vague on NI and "around the country and the world".
But yes, if a certain situation calls for an assault with military tactics, then you would obviously call in the military.
>> Special forces, who have now been
>> drafted in on this because of their experience and training.
Sure, if the unconfirmed reports are to be believed, and no doubt the expertise of the police and the expertise of the army will be well blended.
If however, you are suggesting that they should just have brought in the SAS and SBS en-masse (especially when there is only one person dead, and perhaps there are other places in the world where their skills might be more appropriate) rather than use the police, then I think you are missing quite a few important considerations.
|
As a lay person I would say Fullchat and Steelspark posts are spot on.
To follow up on:
>> Police drafted in Eddie McGee an ex SAS soldier with tracking skills.
In this situation, all that is needed is someone with tracking skills. Although having typed that and thought, with four associates in custody, I think I'd use interrogation skills first on those four. They might all be going away for a long time especially the ones providing the gun and car.*
* Yes I know they will claim to have been hostages but the police involved are intelligent.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 9 Jul 10 at 00:28
|
>> think I'd use interrogation skills first on those four.
Oh come on rtj. You know perfectly well that 'interrogation skills' are illegal in this country. Prising open their 'right to silence' with a telephone directory or substantial bit of big garden hose with a lumpy brass union on the end isn't allowed.
Pity in a way of course. But we wouldn't want our finest to get blase about that sort of thing, would we?
|
|
I actually meant interview skills ;-) Honest. Not that they deserve it if they have helped this man murder someone and injure others.
|
>>>June 17th 1982. Barry Prudom shot two police officers dead, wounded one more and shot dead a civilian in North Yorkshire. The Hunt lasted 17 days during which time he travelled between North Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.
Interesting Fullchat... I'll read the link at lunchtime.
Funnily enough just before they found the Lexus I was in the Cambs Fens and found myself behind a briskly driven tatty black Lexus with a hanging underskirt at the front and three occupants. I went cold for a moment but noticed it had normal wheels and a budget private plate then by the time I got home it was announced the found the one they were looking for.
It did cross my mind though there's no reason why he couldn't have been here.... or anywhere else in the country.... it's only a few hours down the A1.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 9 Jul 10 at 07:52
|
Looking at it from his point of view just now, it'd be a pretty bleak outlook.
Who can you really trust? There's a 10k reward for your location, and theres the threat of prosecution for anyone found to be assisting you. Even the folks you can absolutely trust, how can you be sure they don't do something silly that gives the game away to someone else?
You can't step out in daylight, just because you can't hear a helicopter doesn't mean it's not scouring the area from downwind via zoom lens on the camera. At night time you have to be careful not to stand out alone on the infrared kit but by the same token you can't really be next to anyone else.
Then there's your driving goal, getting one up on the police, so that means time to write more goading letters, time and chance to attack another police officer all the while not getting caught.
Every civilian has to be assumed to be looking out for you since the recent photos were published and if they see you, you have to assume they'll call it in.
He must be feeling pretty cornered right about now. Good. The fear must be pretty difficult to keep a lid on too.
|
I do not think he cares Craig.....and the last thing he is frightened about is dying - I believe that he has long gone from the area of Rothbury and will be hiding in the Newcastle / Gateshead area with support from criminal associates.
Speaking of police armed officers - I think bringing in the Met tactical support officers to Rothbury was a waste of time - they are alright in a built up area but they need completely different skills in the open countryside , tracking and survival experts caught Prudom.
I laughed out loud at the completely out of comfort zone firearms officers searching the banks of the river wearing trainers.....
|
|
Cpt Flack, have you ever heard the term 'stop digging, the hole's getting deeper'
|
"ex Firearms Trainer I can speak with some authority on the subject."
Then can you confirm whether your selection process gets it right everytime you recruit a PC into the unit?
If no, do you whittle these people out or do you "develop" them to fit in?
If yes, then there have been several cases and occasions, which you probably know about, where IMO the firearms individuals or team has been over zealous.
As a member of the public I want protection from the best firearms officers the police can offer. I don't want gunho types being given the chance to take out the wrong or innocent person because they are hyped up. I want a controlled, disciplined firearms officer that is going to make the right decision. So it was just a suggestion that the right people from the military would be "halfway" there to giving the Police Service an advantage. I am not confining those to special forces, as they are so short in number, but across the military. Combined with the police training and urban familiarisation, you could have an excellent firearms unit.
(And just in case you think I am anti police, I have been a witness on behalf of two officers on two different occasions. One was a traffic incident that went to court. The other was at an incident where a MOP died, and I had to give a statement to the IPCC. In both cases the officers were exonerated)
Pick and Shovel hung up. ;-)
|
>> If yes, then there have been several cases and occasions, which you probably know about,
>> where IMO the firearms individuals or team has been over zealous.
>> As a member of the public I want protection from the best firearms officers the
>> police can offer. I don't want gunho types being given the chance to take out
>> the wrong or innocent person because they are hyped up. I want a controlled, disciplined
>> firearms officer that is going to make the right decision.
Why do you think that military types would be any better than other rigorously selected police officers?
Do they have a better track record than the police with minimising civilian casualties and not overreacting to situations?
tinyurl.com/qk6qv
|
|
You'll just have to take it from me that many apply, but only a few get selected. The selection procedure is rigorous and the chop rate during training is in the region of 60%.
|
The police have offered a £10k reward for information on Mr. Moat. If he's not caught by tonight then it'll increase to £20k. I guess that'll make it a Raoul over.
I'll get my coat. Sorry.
|
>> I'll get my coat. Sorry.
Perhaps you can borrow Zookeepers when he's finished with it
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=1899&m=36393&v=e
;o)
|
Damiit. In that case..........
Dear Mr Moat,
It has come to my notice that John Terry has been sleeping with your wife while you were in prison.
Yours Sincerely,
Wayne Bridge.
|
Good old British humour eh. Nothing but text messages past few days about this fella and most are repeats!
Not even roualmoatly funny ;-)
Last edited by: CraigP on Fri 9 Jul 10 at 13:28
|
|
It's all happening close, real close to where I am staying, armed response unit outside our local pub, car searched. Went to Rothbury Wednesday, heaving with press and armed police more from your roving reporter on Monday
|
Are plod using this as some kind of training excerise or what?
Rothbury is full of tooled up coppers, but it would seem unlikely he going to stroll down the high street for a paper!
To pre-empt the usual patronising reponse from online plod, this is merely speculation as to whether this is being used as a 'live' training excercise for several forces.
|
Well I'm sure we are all glad to see you are enjoying your holiday in the tranquil Northumbria countryside Zero ..........
Just don't give any burly ginger hitchhikers a lift will you.........
|
Breaking News on the BBC -
There has been a sighting of Moat in Durham - near the Castle !
IGMC
|
Have car share available. A1 southbound, leaving Rothbury Sat morning around 10.30.
Only £5000 single journey
|
Looking at the news, Northumbria police seem to have employed Gwendolyn from Wallace and Grommit as the acting Chief Constable
|
|
When I commented on the haircut my wife said I wouldn't have said that if it was a man. I replied that a male Chief Constable (acting or otherwise) would have a sensible haircut. But if he'd had said a mullet I would comment.
|
>> Looking at the news, Northumbria police seem to have employed Gwendolyn from Wallace and Grommit
>> as the acting Chief Constable
You mean Wendolene?
Wendolene:
tinyurl.com/35vkea9
Sue Sim:
tinyurl.com/323uqn5
I think they may be related.
|
PMSL!!
Thars rather cruel, though!
|
...Have car share available. A1 southbound, leaving Rothbury Sat morning around 10.30....
Zero,
You could do worse than have a look at the Durham Miners' Gala on your way past on the A1(M).
It's not something you'll see anywhere else in the country.
Parade starts at 9am in Market Place, Durham City.
news.bbc.co.uk/local/wear/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8800000/8800605.stm
|
>> leaving Rothbury Sat morning around 10.30.
>> Only £5000 single journey
Someone dropped out then Zero?
And I think you should warn potential takers that the journey will end in the middle of a vast traffic jam in the wilds of Northamptonshire.
Hope you enjoy the race though.
|
|
major stuff seems to be going down here, roads stiff with lots of fast blues and twos
|
|
The police have him surrounded and are negotiating.
|
|
Oh I thought you meant Zero.....
|
|
Anyway you can't negotiate with Zero.
|
|
apparently he broke into a house to steal the car keys, but it turned out to be a feed so he stayed to shoot it out
|
dAmn iPhone keyboard imeant ceed of course
I can see the main road into rothbury from the window about 1/4 mile away - constant stream of blues lights in and out
|
|
We figured that out I was going to edit it out for you !
|
>> dAmn iPhone keyboard imeant ceed of course
>>
Technology too much after the obsolete car?
|
|
I have seen a minute of BBC coverage of this incident, and it both disgraceful and distasteful.
|
|
I always rated that John Sopel - ranting on asking perfectly lucid and articulate people to repeat themselves ad nausium tonight - complete twaddle.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Fri 9 Jul 10 at 22:02
|
I concur total hyped up speculative drivel. Not untypical these days.
Moat will be feeling he is in control. That sort of guy.
Three resolutions:
1. He'll give himself up to a life stretch
2. He'll take his own life as he realises he has lost control and is going to do life.
3. He's not brave enough to pull the trigger so he will try to make the Police do it for him.
So advantages and disadvantages.
1. Great cost to the state.
2. Little cost other than fighting a blame culture. IPCC inquiry and inquest. Negotiators and those close to the action will feel some responsibility for an unsuccessful resolution who wont have dealt with it right in the eyes of family and media speculation. Legally aided negligence/compensation claims.
3. Again little long term cost . In the short term IPCC inquiry and inquest. Media and family accusations that the Police could have dealt with it better etc etc. Legally aided negligence/compensation claims.
Oh and massive impact on the 'gun slinging trigger happy Rambo/s' who take the shot. They will go through the mill and also their close families.
Now which is the best result???
I see Gazza has arrived. All ok now.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 9 Jul 10 at 22:51
|
I see Gazza has arrived. All ok now.
>
>>>>>you couldnt make this bit up could you
if you read it in a book you would just laugh
the news on sky as i type is quite good
|
|
The BBC's finest have been truly abysmal - that Sopel should be handcuffed to a desk in future....bring back Kate Aidie.
|
|
Seems that the Police will be employing Danny Savage as a Tactical Adviser....
|
|
why would they use a dj though?
|
|
It's pouring with rain up there. The news channels say the police shone lights on the guy and crept towards him. There was a poor recording of a shot or shots and a lot of yelling. Then lots of sirens. It is now being said that he shot himself.
|
|
Good riddance however he died.
|
It would have been better if he had been taken alive and had to answer for his actions.
Strange how he was seemingly living in, or so close to, the village, perhaps there are other conspirators ...
|
....Three resolutions:
1. He'll give himself up to a life stretch
2. He'll take his own life as he realises he has lost control and is going to do life.
3. He's not brave enough to pull the trigger so he will try to make the Police do it for him....
And you criticise the media for meaningless speculation.
I'm about to toss a coin.
There will be three resolutions:
Heads, tails or it will land on its edge. :)
|
|
Each for his own but I found the 3 outcome/consequences summary interesting.
|
...Each for his own but I found the 3 outcome/consequences summary interesting...
My only point was that I couldn't conceive of a fourth outcome.
But then, I couldn't predict Gazza turning up, either.
|
|
Seems like the whole thing has been magnified and distorted beyond belief and ended in unfortunate circumstances. I've never seen anything like it in terms of pretty awful tabloid reporting - including the BBC in my opinion. I hope some lessons are learned in that respect. If he had been persuaded to give up, I can't imagine how he could ever have had a fair hearing/trial with that media circus in the background. I don't think I'll bother with the BBC until the hype has died down.
|
>>>I can't imagine how he could ever have had a fair hearing/trial with that media circus in the background.
Come on Baz.... he'd shot three people killing one and threatened to kill more. He was never going to get a community service order.
|
the carnival is over
good
normal people can now get back to normal lives
|
|
Indeed, I agree, but it's for the courts to decide that , not the media!
|
Very true Baz.
I did think this was a classic example of how communications available to ordinary folks have skewed the media system these days. On all sorts of forums there were folks within the area posting and tweeting too making their news well ahead of the BBC... even Sky seemed to be using input from these sources when their reporters were held away from the scene.
|
...I can't imagine how he could ever have had a fair hearing/trial with that media circus in the background...
Baz,
The people who would give this man a fair trial are jurors - the likes of you and me.
So unless you are saying we are all too weak and feeble minded to consider the case on its merits - and I don't think you are saying that - then he could have a fair trial.
|
>> a fair trial are jurors
I still have faith that even though the public are blindingly stupid. People are still pretty sharp and switched on.
|
...I still have faith that even though the public are blindingly stupid. People are still pretty sharp and switched on...
Spot on, particularly when they are confronted with something they know requires thought, care, and attention.
As far as I can tell, jurors take their role seriously.
|
If tried, the man would certainly have been convicted of murder, fair trial or not.
Paul Gascoigne turned up at the scene and was quoted as saying he wanted to give 'Moaty' a can of lager and some food. On learning this, Gascoigne's agent said he was 'speechless'.
Mr Moat does seem to have had a host of friends as well as being a dedicated writer of texts. It is all most confusing.
|
And so your roving reporter returns to his abode, briefly,before he departs for the GP.
Mr Moat seemed to follow us around. We got caught in a jam on the A1 just north of Gateshead on Sunday. We find out later that evening its where mr Moat shot the copper.
On Tuesday we traveled north up the coast, only to hear on the radio that an hour or so after we left, that Rothbury was locked down. Much calming of Nicole required. We returned to Long Framlington, past a check point and dined in the local pub where the police had the road to Rothbury sealed off.
The locals were very appologetic, telling us that things like this never normally happened, and we all got slowly blootered after dining on a fine steak.
We went into Rothbury the next morning, as it was the route to get to Kielder water. It was stiff with all sorts of police and press hardware tho no road blocks.
On Thursday we went there again to try to get into Cragside, it was shut, so we had a walk along the river, from the priory to thrum mill. It was 400 mteres past thrum mill that Moat shot himslef on the saturday morning.
If you havent been there, you cant believe the country just east and north past Rothbury. Its as remote as any part of england I know. It was clear that moat would not have the equipment or training to get far that way, so everything was covered west and east by the police, who seemed to have moved out of the town in force. I suspect this was a key part of the plan, to make moat think that Rothbury itself was a bit safer for him. It seems to have worked and tempted him out.
The locals were superb hospitable and pleasant, and on the whole after a slow start the Northumbria police did a good job for them. You have to bear in mind they are not equiped or experienced in this kind of thing. As the locals said, this kind of thing just never happens there.
|
...We got caught in a jam on the A1 just north of Gateshead on Sunday...
I passed the A1/A66 junction at Scotch Corner on Sunday afternoon.
The message boards were saying A1/A69 exit shut - which is 40 miles up the road - but it's the next major route west across the Pennines.
I didn't give the closure a second thought, but the junction is at West Denton which is where the polis was shot.
It's a favourite place for traffic cars to park up, so I was told.
|
And you have had the cheek to call ME a drama queen on more than one occasion :)
Aimed at Z, not you Iffy!
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Sun 11 Jul 10 at 05:57
|
If you think the north east of England is remote you are not well travelled Zero.
Were you deliberately rubbernecking to get caught up in the incident? It would have been easy to avoid it in that area.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 11 Jul 10 at 09:28
|
I see Moat's brother is now bleating about the use of a taser and the cops' technique generally.
If he and the rest of the family had offered Moat the support, and more importantly, guidance they should have done, we wouldn't be in this mess.
Send the family bill for the police overtime - it's mostly their fault.
|
>> Moat's brother is now bleating about the use of a taser
If a taser was used when the man was pointing a cocked shotgun at his own head, then I think the brother has more than a point. If they had just shot him dead when they found him, as they might have done in America, everyone would have known where they were. Doing whatever was done in private after a long standoff, and then refusing to say what happened until an official version has been prepared, is just asking for hostile or paranoid speculation.
It's true that people's families quite often have a lot to answer for in cases like this. But there seems no particular reason to blame other people for Mr Moat's condition without considerable inside knowlege, which we haven't got. It isn't very like other cases of this sort. There are oddities. Moat appears better respected and more articulate than the general run of berserkers.
|
|
Going to lock this up now - two reasons, it's running beyond 100 replies (which make sit difficult to read on a smartphone etc....I know I tried in the States !) and it's no longer motoring related. By all means start a new thread in Non Motoring if you want.
|
Police search for Black Lexus IS200 SE V322 HKX - Dave_
