>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28459472
>>
>> At last!
>>
>> Cue uproar from BRAKE!
>>
>> Pat
But Green Party transport spokeswoman Caroline Russell said: "The government say they want to reduce the speed differential between lorries and cars to improve safety, but their move to raise the speed limit for lorries ignores basic physics.
"Lorries are heavy and by increasing the speed at which they travel, the government is greatly increasing the risk and severity of crashes.
"By raising the limit for lorries they are also increasing the speed differential between lorries and vulnerable road users: people walking and riding on bikes or on horses.
Caroline my dear, If I get hit by an HGV at 40mph I am dead. If I get by an HGV at 50 mph I am dead. I don't see much differential in that sweetheart.
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>> >>
>> If I get hit by an HGV at 40mph I am dead.
>> If I get by an HGV at 50 mph I am dead. I don't see
>> much differential in that sweetheart.
>>
Except that a lorry at 40 mph has an extra 74 feet in which to stop.
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Why the condescending and rather sexist "sweetheart". Don't agree with her but a valid point of view surely.
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>> Why the condescending and rather sexist "sweetheart". Don't agree with her but a valid point
>> of view surely.
I thought it sounded better than calling her a "stupid misguided uniformed tart with a selfish agenda".
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Didn't realise she was in uniform.
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That came out of the blue (at least to me)?
There's been talk for years about reducing the limit to 40 for everyone on rural A roads.
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It says this is an historic and now outdated rule. If I'd been asked I'd have had it in my head that the 40mph for lorries wasn't very old - in the last ten years perhaps?
Or is it that its been there since 1903 but only in the last ten years or so has technology allowed lorries to be tracked sufficiently that drivers take some notice of it?
I'm sure they went quicker in "Hell Drivers", with all the advantages of speeded up film.
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>> I'm sure they went quicker in "Hell Drivers", with all the advantages of speeded up
>> film.
Enjoy, the full film
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5MtiQ1pjXc
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Yeah well.
It used to be you could go into a library, look in a card catalogue for a book, and inadvertently pick up the wrong one, which could lead to some delightful diversions.
I now discover the modern equivalent is autocorrect. Instead of "Hell Drivers" I ended up with "Bell Divers", which took me to a lovely little three minute film.
Imagine your job is to drill concrete. In an enclosed metal box. Underwater. With no diving gear. And a cardigan.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPoz7hv8YWc
Sorry about the thread drift. At least Felix pines no more, and I have to say I didn't remember the Sean Connery Versus the Giant Squid sequence (actually I do have a movie which really is John Wayne versus the Giant Squid, but that's another story).
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>>
>> Or is it that its been there since 1903
An old ex-policeman told me the limit everywhere for lorries used to be 20MPH and they'd do 'em at 25.
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>> An old ex-policeman told me the limit everywhere for lorries used to be 20MPH and
>> they'd do 'em at 25.
>>
An old poster on C4P can confirm that that is so.
In his teenage cycling days he found the Watneys lorries trundling along at 20 pmh very useful for pace making and slipstreaming!
On one occasion I ducked in behind a lorry to very quickly realise that it was towing a trailer. "Goodness me", I said.
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Seems sensible to me. 40mph lorries just cause hold ups and cars to take risks to get past.
However, I have a question - which is more [financially] important to a lorry driver these days; arriving earlier, using less driving hours on a particular trip or using less fuel?
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A lot of them go at 50 on A roads already. Soon they will be doing 60 and we will have to take even worse risks to get past them.
:o}
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Followed yet another "elephant overtake" on the A74M dual carriageway the other day. 5 miles it took, 5 blinking miles ! Just because one truck jockey was convinced he or she could squeeze 0.000000000something of a mph more out of their wagon load of urgent dog food or whatever it was.
Sometimes, and this definitely one of them, I wish my imaginary 007 style machine guns hidden in the indicators really worked.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Thu 24 Jul 14 at 15:21
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>> Followed yet another "elephant overtake" on the A74M dual carriageway the other day. 5 miles
>> it took, 5 blinking miles ! Just because one truck jockey was convinced he or
>> she could squeeze 0.000000000something of a mph more out of their wagon load of urgent
>> dog food or whatever it was.
>>
>> Sometimes, and this definitely one of them, I wish my imaginary 007 style machine guns
>> hidden in the indicators really worked.
>>
I sympathise; it's bad manners from both, as the driver being overtaken could easily knock his cruise control back a couple of clicks to let the other guy in.
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>> Followed yet another "elephant overtake" on the A74M dual carriageway the other day. 5 miles it took, 5 blinking miles !
If anyone knows the A34, a couple of years ago I (and quite a few others!) were stuck behind a similar lorry driver from the M40 junction right through to the Abingdon junction when he finally completed his overtake manoeuvre and pulled back in.
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>> A lot of them go at 50 on A roads already. Soon they will be
>> doing 60 and we will have to take even worse risks to get past them.
>>
>>
>> :o}
>>
They do so, by and large, with the tacit co-operation of the police, who know damn well that lorries running at 50 mph generate both less tailbacks and less risk of impatient car drivers overtaking in the wrong place.
As for 60; it can be done but only with the aid of either a seriously steep downhill gradient or judicious placing of a magnet. Goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes GVW are restricted to 90 kph or 56 mph. Buses can do 62 mph.
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Did some homework...
Lorry speed limit was 20mph until 1957, when it rose to 30. It further rose to 40 in 1967 and 60 in 1971.
More detail at www.rchs.org.uk/trial/4-2%20Road%20haulage.pdf
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Most deliveries are timed now and you can't get tipped much before your allocated slot.
Most firms pay a fuel bonus so that wins hands down.
I don't know why they are talking about raising the limit on dual carriageways for lorries to 60MPH since were all limited to a maximum of 56MPH anyway.
Pat
Edit: That is unless going down Beattock, fully freighted, on the M74 southbound with nerves of steel:)
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I remain to be convinced whether this will offer benefits.
Most lorries seem to do more than 40 mph on single carriageways anyway. But whether they do or not, there's often a long line of drivers (in cars more powerful than mine) behind who don't attempt to overtake.
For myself, my actions depend largely on how I'm feeling at the time:
A) Sometimes I just can't be arrased, and I'll pootle along behind until maybe we go in separate directions or a bit of dual-carriageway turns up.
B) Other times I just do NOT want to spend time with nothing but the view of the back end of an HGV, so I darn well WILL overtake it, even if it appears to be doing 58mph anyway.
And if other drivers feel the same way as me, therein lies the potential problem: There's still going to be a difference between the speed limits for lorries and cars, but everyone's moving faster. So more drivers will fall into the 'mimser' category and not attempt an overtake - making the crocodile queue even lengthier - but they and the lorries are going to be going faster than previously. So if I am in mode 'B', I'm going to have to do a greater length of overtake(s) and have to be travelling faster than at present, in order to get past that lorry at the front. Surely that puts me and everyone else at greater risk.
Until I get wiped-out, at least.
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I have thought for some time that limits should be the same for everyone. Having different limits for different types of vehicle on a particular road is bound to cause miss-matches and congestion. I may be wrong, but don't the Americans have 'one size fits all' speed limits?
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Why do coaches have a higher speed limit than lorries? I would think the passengers would be more precious than the cargo on a lorry.
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Dont think coaches weigh in at anywhere near 44 tonnes max.
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>> Dont think coaches weigh in at anywhere near 44 tonnes max.
You mean 'freight, self loading'?
;>)
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Since I've been getting stuck in more jams on the way to work, I've been looking at vehicle UVW's and one coach was 19500kgs - didn't know they were so heavy +a couple of tons of passengers and luggage. I've learned so much about lorry running gear from mindless staring!
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In my lorry (32 tonne GVW Renault 4-axle curtain-sider) I'm not pulling top gear when driving at 40 mph, and I suspect most others will be the same.
Our company has, like Tesco and a lot of others, fitted tracker systems in all our vehicles and there is officially zero tolerance of speeding. Consequently, I am one of those drivers who is trundling about below 40 mph on single-carriageway roads, on pain of disciplinary action from my employer should I transgress; I can assure you that it's extremely boring, especially on a Friday when I'm often returning from Montgomery to Carmarthen.
I concur with the observations made by the AA's spokesman; that car drivers are generally happy to follow an HGV that is doing 50 mph, only overtaking if it's safe. At 40 mph they will try all sorts of rash and dangerous stunts including trying to pass where it's not only dangerous but also illegal.
There is considerably more to this than meets the eye, though. At the moment, you've got the ludicrous situation where a long stretch of straight A-road may have a blanket 40 mph speed limit yet the narrow and twisty side roads leading off it have a 60mph NSL restriction. Expect all that to change; I predict that most rural lanes will end up with a 40 mph limit, especially if the cycling lobby has anything to do with it.
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In Australia trucks and people towing can go at the same speed as cars and in any lane on the freeway (motorway).
Can lead to a few 'brown trousers' moments since tailgating is rife and speed limits are adhered to fanatically given the zero leeway enforcement regime. Couple this with undertaking and I'm surprised more people aren't flattened by the B-Doubles. since EVERYONE is doing EXACTLY 100kmh (or maybe 110kmh) then all journeys are a long distance elephant race.
Maybe this is 'better', maybe it isn't, increasing the speed limit for lorries in the UK might make the inside lane move a little faster and obviate the need for overtaking on national limit single carriageways ?
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>> Our company has, like Tesco and a lot of others, fitted tracker systems in all
>> our vehicles and there is officially zero tolerance of speeding. Consequently, I am one of
>> those drivers who is trundling about below 40 mph on single-carriageway roads, on pain of
>> disciplinary action from my employer should I transgress;
Yes, I disagree with earlier posters, my experience is that HGV drivers generally stick to 40 on rural A roads.
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I suppose speed limits for UK roads are set by UK Gov in mph and the speed limits on vehicle classes are set by EU gov in kph.
>> I don't know why they are talking about raising the limit on dual carriageways for
>> lorries to 60MPH since were all limited to a maximum of 56MPH anyway.
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I do of course leave a suitable gap, but supermarket trucks that are limited to 50 are quite useful to my vintage car on motorways. I can go faster, but as it seems happiest at an indicated 47 and 50 is still good, such things are handy.
My speedo is more accurate than most cars as I recalibrated it, quite an easy task and probably only took me about an hour.
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Out of interest, if there were no speed limit, what speed lorries are capable of doing with full load?
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I'd guess most aren't fully loaded anyway, as to weight, but 56mph?
An empty 8 wheel tipper is a different case, seemingly! Followed one on the A684 from Hawes to Leyburn a couple of years ago and had to work at keeping up.
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Couple of years back - I was doing 80-85mph on I15 across the Mojave Desert, and I was over taken by a Mac truck, hauling three loaded stone hoppers (so say 40 tons plus)
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Before the days of speed limiters I used to get 84 mph out of my Scania 142 V8 fully loaded with potatoes on the M5.
Tates were loaded close to Lands End for Walkers Crisps and had to be in the factory in Leicester ASAP....happy days!
This is why it is imprinted on my brain to check in my n/s rear view mirror up every on slip road I pass, and I still do it today in the car.
Pat
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>> Out of interest, if there were no speed limit, what speed lorries are capable of
>> doing with full load?
>>
>>
>>
I've had a Bedford TK flatbed up to 80 mph before; ears are still ringing!
Many years ago, I used to work for a small company who sub-contracted to one of Boots the chemists designated hauliers running out of Nottingham; usually driving one of our old bangers but sometimes sent out on their own lorries. One of their units was known as the "Rochdale Flyer" and worked exclusively to that depot, usually pulling small single-axle trailers full of light stuff like Pampers nappies etc. A colleague took it out one night, had his foot down as he was running late, doing an indicated 70 he said along the M62. He was pulled by a police car who had clocked him at nearly 85; he showed the copper his tachograph card which showed his speedo to be running 15 mph slow. Subsequent examination of the tractor unit showed that it had been fitted with a differential from a bus, which of course raised the final drive gearing but bypassed the tachograph pickup.
He got a fine and an endorsement, but the company came very close to losing their operating licence over it.
Modern trucks could probably do that quite easily if you tweaked them; the deciding factor is the speed at which the windscreen gives up the ghost and crumples back into the driver's face; this I believe is one reason why truck racing is subject to a 100mph speed limit on the track.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 29 Jul 14 at 21:59
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I just missed a job once that would have involved driving passengers from somewhere to somewhere else (in Europe) in a Mercedes Sprinter bus-type thing with a big diesel and high-ratio back axle. Something about the job put me off, I don't remember what.
But the driving sounded good.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 29 Jul 14 at 22:15
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On the rural interstates in Nevada the truck speed limit is 75. Idaho 65. On our March ski road trip we experienced a good few double trailers tanking down gradients at an indicated 85. We were happy to stay behind until the next upgrade...my friend had a puny 4.7 V8 Toyota Tundra which struggled to do a ton. And boy did it suck gas at that speed!
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Slightly off track...
Are modern truck engines subject to EU emissions rules?
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Bit of an oversight if they aren't!
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They most certainly are.
Pat
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And are they taxed differently depending on the emissions output?
I'm just curious and no nothing of truck VED etc.
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Apologies for copy and paste.
>> Across Europe there are a number of different incentives for early adoption of Euro 6. Some offer a subsidy towards the additional cost of Euro 6, others encourage the use of vehicles with lower emissions through lower road use charges. In the UK the Reduced Pollution Certificate (RPC) is available for Euro 6 compliant vehicles first registered before the mandatory introduction on 31st December 2013. The RPC provides a discount to the Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) payable. The discount level varies according to the taxation class, with lighter vehicles benefitting by a small amount (for example a 7.5t 2 axle rigid gets an annual saving of £5), whilst heavier trucks save more (4 axle rigids and articulated vehicles can save up to £500 per year). The Euro 6 RPC scheme differs from earlier RPC schemes because the RPC will only be able to provide a VED discount for a limited time with December 2016 being the last date the RPC can be used to obtain a reduced VED rate for the following 12 months’ road fund license.
<<
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Wed 30 Jul 14 at 13:07
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Got to be honest, I don't support this at all. Every so often I follow an HGV which is choosing to ignore the 40 mph limit and doing between 50-56, and it's frightening. Watching from behind it's obvious that the driver isn't entirely in control, with wide excursions into the other lane on corners and twitchy reactions from the trailer.
I occasionally run alongside the A413 and although there's a path, it's frequently overgrown in summer with nettles and brambles which means I have to run in the carriageway for a couple of miles.
Believe me, until you've tried it you won't believe how frightening it can be and from a purely subjective point of view HGV drivers are the worst, with many only spotting me at the last minute and making a violent swerve to avoid collision. When this happens I get to watch the trailer tilt towards me as it reacts to the change in momentum...
Bear in mind that I've only just been missed with a 40mph limit - the risk to pedestrians / cyclists / riders / broken down vehicles etc increases disproportionately. You can argue that drivers should drive at appropriate speeds, but, frankly, they don't and won't in future.
Why not point out the rule in the Highway Code that says slow-moving vehicles should pull in from time to time to let people pass? Far cheaper than railroading a change in the law. Fortunately, I suspect, this'll be like the 80mph* limit on motorways and won't actually get passed.
I'll compromise. You want to drive your lorry at 56mph on A-roads? Then it must be factory-fitted with a forward-looking camera and an alerting system similar to that fitted to Volvos and Mercs when it detects a pedestrian in the carriageway.
* This I'm entirely in support of. Minimal risk by increasing it and excellent source of revenue if cameras set up to snap at 90+.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Wed 30 Jul 14 at 17:46
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>>it's frightening. Watching from behind it's obvious that the driver isn't entirely in control, <<
'sfunnny, we always remark on the same thing on the M25 around Heathrow about the planes landing and taking off.
Difference is, we are happy to trust that all is not as it appears and you're in full control.
A lorry with air suspension on the trailer and unit does appear to lean from behind.......and it's understandable that an amateur viewing this may be alarmed for no reason at all!
I wouldn't dream of judging how well you fly you're plane, so how qualified are you to judge the finer points of lorry driving?
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Wed 30 Jul 14 at 18:38
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>> I wouldn't dream of judging how well you fly your plane, so how qualified are
>> you to judge the finer points of lorry driving?
>>
>> Pat
>>
I don't think there's any comparison, to be honest. It is entirely different - my job is 95% risk management, 5% actual hands-on skills.
Straying onto the wrong side with oncoming cars does not strike me as "in control", nor does failing to observe someone dressed in fluorescent orange until the last minute. I don't see how deliberately increasing the risk in these situations benefits anyone.
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>>I don't think there's any comparison, to be honest. It is entirely different - my job is 95% risk management, 5% actual hands-on skills.
<<
Exactly the same as ours.
Staying on your own side of the road until the last minute on a road with as much white paint on it as that one is essential.
On the other hand, for the trailer to clear the kerb on some of those bends, with the width of that carriageway, then the lorry would have to go over the white lines onto the other side.
Like WP, I fail to understand why any jogger/runner ever runs on a main road when there are lovely quiet country lanes around.
Surely breathing all those exhaust fumes negates any health benefits?
Then again, I suppose it's good for an exhibitionist ego?
Pat
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>>I don't think there's any comparison, to be honest. It is entirely different - my job is 95% risk management, 5% actual hands-on skills.
<<
>Exactly the same as ours.<
Fast forward to the day RyanAir start recruiting cigarette smoking, mobile phone using exHGV jockeys for their lowcost European services :)
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Thu 31 Jul 14 at 07:53
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>> Staying on your own side of the road until the last minute on a road
>> with as much white paint on it as that one is essential.
>>
Why? Doesn't seem to bother most drivers who drive a smooth arc as they pass.
>> Like WP, I fail to understand why any jogger/runner ever runs on a main road
>> when there are lovely quiet country lanes around.
>>
How do you think you're supposed to get to the quiet country lanes?
>> Surely breathing all those exhaust fumes negates any health benefits?
>>
>> Then again, I suppose it's good for an exhibitionist ego?
>>
>> Pat
>>
I can't believe you're writing this after your rants at Zero for personal insults. Exhibitionist ego? Where'd you get that from? Because I run?
>> On the other hand, for the trailer to clear the kerb on some of those bends,
>> with the width of that carriageway, then the lorry would have to go over the
>> white lines onto the other side.
Then they should be going at such a speed that they can give way to oncoming traffic, not forcing them into the hedge. A lower speed will reduce the radius required to turn, too.
>> Risk management
>>
Oh, come on. Really? Life is an exercise in risk management - and we all take risks.
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>> can't believe you're writing this after your rants at Zero for personal insults. Exhibitionist ego? Where'd you get that from? Because I run? <<
If you read my properly you will see that I was very careful to say ANY jogger/runner.
Nothing personal in that unless of course 'the cap fits' :)
Pat
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>> I occasionally run alongside the A413 and although there's a path, it's frequently overgrown in
>> summer with nettles and brambles which means I have to run in the carriageway for
>> a couple of miles.
>>
>> Believe me, until you've tried it you won't believe how frightening it can be and
>> from a purely subjective point of view HGV drivers are the worst,
Why on earth don't you do something about it.. and not run along a major 'A' road.
If it is frightening, at what point will you think 'this is not for me'?
If you think that emergency service personnel have to have extra training to be allowed to work on a 'fast road' because of the dangers involved, why would anyone want to run on it?
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The A413 between Aylesbury and say Whitchurch is not what I'd call a 'fast' road, it's just a rural A road. That's probably the bit FF means.
My first thought was of the 413 from Wendover to the Chalfonts. I wouldn't run or cycle on that given a choice.
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>> The A413 between Aylesbury and say Whitchurch is not what I'd call a 'fast' road,
>> it's just a rural A road. That's probably the bit FF means.
That's the exact bit I mean (though in reality only about two miles of it - the path is OK for the rest). I can at least step onto the grass verge if necessary.
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I used to run on roads, partly due to location, but can stick to pavements these days, for which I'm grateful. So I'm curious FF - is this the sort of thing you're talking about?
goo.gl/maps/VZesZ (google maps)
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Nope, it's this bit - goo.gl/maps/onqYV
[Random start and end point selected]
The verge is not neatly mown as it is in Streetview - the grass / nettles are knee high and while the tarmac path is still there, brambles stick out from the hedge every few yards at head height making it a somewhat precarious place to walk, let alone run.
But my argument stands - that bit of road has excellent visibility and a hatched section in the middle to allow for safe passing of pedestrians / cyclists.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Wed 30 Jul 14 at 20:59
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>> Nope, it's this bit - goo.gl/maps/onqYV
Ok, thanks. Pity that path's overgrown - have you tried contacting the council to see if they can clear it?
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>> a somewhat precarious place
>> to walk, let alone run.
Then I would avoid walking and running on it like the plague. Running is a leisure pursuit, I doubt very much you're commuting, so there's no need to use that road. Why do it? I'm baffled.
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Probably doesn't want to use the car to drive somewhere else to start running.
The point FF was making was about driver behaviour, which affects cyclists and walkers in exactly the same way.
Those quiet country lanes have traffic too, and stretches where there is nowhere to jump to. I live on one, perhaps not always that quiet. I regularly stop short when I see a runner coming towards me and there is oncoming, passing when I can pull out.
They usually look surprised that somebody would do that - I assume most people are prepared to drive at them (or within a foot) leaving them to throw themselves into a hedge if necessary.
It costs only a few seconds in a car to give adequate space. Lorries of course take a lot more getting going again which probably increases reluctance to stop.
I honestly think most drivers need recalibrating as regards runners, cyclists and walkers. Probably to do with the 'cocoon' effect.
I must say I wouldn't run there; but it's much the same for cyclists and walkers and all are entitled not to be buzzed.
I've been knocked off my feet while walking, by a van mirror that luckily didn't hit me in the head. I got in as much as I could but he had oncoming traffic and I imagine in his mind he had no choice than to cut me close - you can see when following people sometimes that actually waiting for a chance to pass is the last option on their list, if it's there at all.
Whether that is reason enough to keep the 40 limit is a different question.
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>> Then I would avoid walking and running on it like the plague. Running is a
>> leisure pursuit, I doubt very much you're commuting, so there's no need to use that
>> road. Why do it? I'm baffled.
>>
Is "living on it" a good excuse? ;-)
Don't really want to jump in the car for the 2 mile walk into town... or the other way into Whitchurch.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Thu 31 Jul 14 at 10:33
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>> Is "living on it" a good excuse? ;-)
Yes, I suppose that's a pretty good one! :-)
Still, if I were you I'd just run round and round in circles in my front garden till I got dizzy. ;-)
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>> Why not point out the rule in the Highway Code that says slow-moving vehicles should
>> pull in from time to time to let people pass? Far cheaper than railroading a
>> change in the law. Fortunately, I suspect, this'll be like the 80mph* limit on motorways
>> and won't actually get passed.
>>
>> I'll compromise. You want to drive your lorry at 56mph on A-roads? Then it must
>> be factory-fitted with a forward-looking camera and an alerting system similar to that fitted to
>> Volvos and Mercs when it detects a pedestrian in the carriageway.
>>
We do, if we can. Unfortunately, it normally follows that the roads with the riskiest overtaking places are also the ones with least number of safe lay-bys to pull in to. I mentioned earlier in this thread that my employers are sticklers for observing speed limits; I don't have a problem with that although it usually entails us doing 38 mph rather than 40 to avoid the risk of speeding on overrun down gradients. During the last 18 months or so when I've been following this regime, I've had to put up with a massive increase in the number of rash, stupid and downright dangerous overtakes from other vehicles; not just cars it has to be said but lorries as well.
I'd question the effectiveness of such early warning systems anyway. Like parking sensors, drivers would come to rely on the electronic gadgetry rather than using their eyes as God intended them to. You know that in your trade, radar can malfunction with tragic and devastating consequences, so why encourage their use on other methods of transport?
I would also point out that the proposed limit is 50 not 56; the latter is indeed too fast for the majority of single-carriageway roads and in practice one tends to drive between 40 and 50 for much of the time.
We are actually fitted with two perfectly good and functional devices to detect pedestrians in the road by the way. They're called eyes. Sadly their use is often compromised by the ever-increasing amount of diversions which reduce the amount of time spent on observing the road ahead; the six mirrors and four cameras on my own vehicle, and the speedometer to which I have to pay closer attention than most, or else drive slower for reasons stated above.
Incidentally, I've noticed a marked increase in the amount of devices currently fitted to pedestrians and cyclists which have the same effect, namely headphones and mobile phones. whilst I wouldn't dream of accusing you of being stupid enough to use such paraphenalia whilst you're exercising, there's a lot who do and if we're going to enforce draconian measures on motorists then use of personal entertainment or mobile phones whilst walking, jogging or cycling should be banned as well.
For one thing it might help to make us a less insular and more polite society.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sat 2 Aug 14 at 12:06
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Lorry speed limits to rise. - Zero
