Look away if apostrophes aren't interesting to you.
Link to Cambridge local news
tinyurl.com/omxpf6g
I wonder if they've been watching
www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
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Excellent, at last its official. We should now declare open season on pedants, hunt them down and shoot them.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 17 Jan 14 at 08:36
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>> Excellent, at last its official. We should now declare open season on pedants, hunt them
>> down and shoot them.
>>
People who are careless with grammar should be hacked to death and buried in unmarked graves.
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>> >> Excellent, at last its official. We should now declare open season on pedants, hunt
>> them
>> >> down and shoot them.
>> >>
>>
>> People who are careless with grammar should be hacked to death and buried in unmarked
>> graves.
>>
In Surrey?
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>> In Surrey?
>>
Hehe.
As I'm being hunted down and shot anyway, my last request is that we all agree that there's only one 'o' in 'lose', and two in 'too'.
Spelling matters for easy reading, and matters more when the misspelling is a different word.
I excuse Zero who transgresses deliberately, presumably to promote his message that none of it matters at all.
I treasure his yuman right to protest non-violently, provided that he doesn't disrupt the boat race.
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>> I treasure his yuman right to protest non-violently, provided that he doesn't disrupt the boat race.
He will, Dugong, he will. But he's right, none of it matters.
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The trouble is that, unless we use a common code, there is a danger that we fail to understand each other properly. The situation is worse when it comes to accents; a speech and language therapist's father told her that, in the 1914-18 conflict, he found that troops from different parts of the UK were assigned to separate sectors, as their differing accents meant that they could not communicate fully.
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>> The trouble is that, unless we use a common code, there is a danger that
>> we fail to understand each other properly. The situation is worse when it comes to
>> accents; a speech and language therapist's father told her that, in the 1914-18 conflict, he
>> found that troops from different parts of the UK were assigned to separate sectors, as
>> their differing accents meant that they could not communicate fully.
This was of course before the words "telecommunications" and "global" To push your argument to its correct conclusion, we should all still be speaking and writing like Shakespeare.
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From yesterday's 'Eats, shoots, leaves' desktop calendar page (Christmas present, although TBH I would have preferred the usual Dilbert one):
Woman, without her man, is nothing.
Woman: without her, man is nothing.
:)
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"The butler called the guest's names."
or
"The butler called the guests' names."
or
"The butler called the guests names."
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 17 Jan 14 at 09:01
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>> "The butler called the guest's names."
>>
>> or
>>
>> "The butler called the guests' names."
>>
>> or
>>
>> "The butler called the guests names."
It should of course, as every half decent pedant should know, be "The Butler announced....."
Thats the trouble with pedants in general. They never actually back up their pedantry by getting it right.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 17 Jan 14 at 09:22
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Then the third example wouldn't work, would it. T'chah, as AC might say.
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>> From yesterday's 'Eats, shoots, leaves' desktop calendar page (Christmas present, although TBH I would have
>> preferred the usual Dilbert one):
>>
>> Woman, without her man, is nothing.
>>
>> Woman: without her, man is nothing.
>>
>> :)
As woman changes her mind about the meaning of that phrase on a daily, no hourly, basis the punctuation is worthless.
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I think Pat was 'fishing' in another thread this morning:
Every few months a select few on here start going on about breadmakers, recipe's and dishwashers.
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There's nothing difficult about apostrophes, a few simple rules, one or two optional choices. It isn't pedantic to use them properly, it's just literate. Blustering that they are redundant and ought to be done away with is coarse, destructive and ignorant.
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Now then tubby tommy, you leave my apostrophe's alone.
I like them and I'll use them where I see fit:)
Pat
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>> Now then tubby tommy, you leave my apostrophe's alone.
>>
>> I like them and I'll use them where I see fit:)
>>
>> Pat
And as Eric Morecambe said, "but not necessarily in the right order"
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on your own head be it, Pat ... but there's no apostrophe in the plural of apostrophe
Sorry!
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Do I care? No.
However, it makes me happy that I made you happy pointing it out to me.
Pat
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>> Do I care? No.
>>
>> However, it makes me happy that I made you happy pointing it out to me.
>>
>> Pat
>>
Well, that's good. Two happy people!
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>>To push your argument to its correct conclusion, we should all still be speaking and writing like Shakespeare.
As men in the street we don't know what accent Shakespeare's was although linguists have no doubt re-created it, as they have Chaucer's. Otherwise we still *do* since our spoken and written language is riddled with words and expressions of his. Howard Bloom, doyen of Shakespeare critics has even subtitled his book on the Bard "The Invention of the Human", so far has his thought influenced later generations.
It is true that different parts of the country are closer in one sense, however language codes have become more numerous and mutually difficult, for example IT v. Plain English, the sub-culture, peer group, texting and generational ones.
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If you think it doesn't matter....
Our Christmas turkey hadn't arrived, so we ate one of our friends.
Less interesting perhaps, but less cannibalistic, with an apostrophe after the s.
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>> If you think it doesn't matter....
>>
>> Our Christmas turkey hadn't arrived, so we ate one of our friends.
>>
>> Less interesting perhaps, but less cannibalistic, with an apostrophe after the s.
And that reinforces the fact it doesn't matter. Everyone provides example of how punctuation matters, but inevitable its always out of context.
We know, for example, that you didn't eat your friend, because its an absurdity. Argument still stands, the punctuation didn't matter.
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" because its an absurdity"
Of course it's an absurdity; normally, Avant only eats stranger's ;-)
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>> And that reinforces the fact it doesn't matter. Everyone provides example of how punctuation matters, but inevitable its always out of context.
Zero, in individual cases where something simple is being conveyed it doesn't matter, because the meaning gets through and it doesn't matter much if it doesn't get through.
However, correct punctuation including the correct use of apostrophes is important sometimes in conveying meaning. So spreading the intellectually lazy view that it doesn't matter at all is an attempt to erode language itself down to a cruder level. This may suit some individuals but any fool can see that it isn't a good thing at all. Without precise meaning language is just noise.
Similarly, any fool can easily master the use of apostrophes. It isn't a mystery reserved for those of high intellect for God's sake. It's just basic English.
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Nice one, Haywain. Fear not - in my experience hay is marginally more edible than haywains.
I use the turkey example when I'm teaching effective writing precisely because (hopefully) it's an absurdity, and therefore makes people notice. This should make them more careful when it does still make sense even when incorrect (e.g. auditors report instead of auditors' report). It matters in cases like that because most clients of professional firms aren't like Zero and still think it matters.
Most people in business think, rightly or wrongly (and I'm old-fashioned enough to think rightly) that poor spelling, grammar etc. give an overall impression of someone who doesn't care, and whose work in general may be sloppy. I certainly take that view when looking at CVs as I do most days.
I'm not saying you're completely wrong, Zero: maybe in a generation or so the Zero view will be in the majority, rather than zero tolerance.
Last edited by: Avant on Sat 18 Jan 14 at 15:38
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I bet Zero gets his spelling etc. right in his CV.
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>> Most people in business think, rightly or wrongly (and I'm old-fashioned enough to think rightly)
>> that poor spelling, grammar etc. give an overall impression of someone who doesn't care, and
>> whose work in general may be sloppy. I certainly take that view when looking at
>> CVs as I do most days.
My CV is grammatically impeccable, as was my professional proposal writing and reports output.
>> I'm not saying you're completely wrong, Zero: maybe in a generation or so the Zero
>> view will be in the majority, rather than zero tolerance.
We were of course talking about a road sign, where honestly it really does not matter in the slightest, except to the outraged pedants, constantly on the look out to be outraged.
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>> a road sign, where honestly it really does not matter in the slightest, except to the outraged pedants, constantly on the look out to be outraged.
Where are these easily outraged pedants? I don't know any. And even on road signs, it does matter a bit. It's the thin end of the generalized illiteracy wedge.
'Hells Angels' doesn't have an apostrophe. It would take a very brave and dedicated pedant to follow them around painting apostrophes on their 'colors'. I hope that isn't why Iffy has been away for so long.
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>>'Hells Angels' doesn't have an apostrophe.
Probably still arguing about whether it's Hell's Angels or Hells Angel's.
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>>on signs it doesn't matter.
It matters depending on whether you are going to
Queens' College
or
Queen's College
The former in Cambridge, the latter in Oxford.
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>> The former in Cambridge, the latter in Oxford.
>
If you have need up in the wrong town, I would suggest college of any kind is a waste of time.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 20 Jan 14 at 10:18
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>> The former in Cambridge, the latter in Oxford
My former colleague Alex was keen on that distinction. As a Cambridge graduate such things mattered to him.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 20 Jan 14 at 10:18
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>> My former colleague Alex was keen on that distinction. As a Cambridge graduate such things
>> mattered to him.
>>
For once, I am inclined to agree with Zero. If he didn't know which town to go to, he didn't deserve a place at Oxbridge.
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Here's a good example for Zero.
The rules on a local council's single occupancy tax concession refer to:
"students partners or dependants".
What it actually means is "students' partners or dependants", ie the partners or dependants of students.
But without punctuation it would mean what a punctuation-less legal document would mean,
ie "students (and) partners (and) dependants", as if written with commas.
Or perhaps it means "students' partners" or "dependants".
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Tue 21 Jan 14 at 15:51
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Ooh, you wouldn't let it lie, would you!*
www.cambridge-news.co.uk/News/Guerrilla-grammarians-armed-with-marker-pens-strike-blow-against-Cambridge-City-Councils-apostrophe-ban-20140123060000.htm
*Vic Reeves Big Night Out, circa 1990. Which of course, possibly has a missing apostrophe.
PS Do we think Kathy Salaman is a chives or a spirit level kind of girl?
Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 08:30
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I think it matters, some of the corporate stuff that goes around at work is quite bad, with no apostrophes or confusion between subjects and objects. Some of it comes from senior people. I don't think it's pedantic, we were taught at school how to write proper :-) and I'm just a school drop-out.
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Now, I'm a bit of an apostrophe pedant too but.........in the report from the Cambridge paper it mentioned that one of the guerillas had put an apostrophe in ' Pepys Court '
Surely this is wrong....The ' Pepys ' is not possessive...unless it belonged or once belonged to him. It's just named after a person...like Smith Court or Jones Court. It just happens that the name ends in 's'.
I have a rather nice Victorian cast iron road sign liberated from a demolition area. As the Victorians were keen on getting things right, I believe it to be correct. It reads ' Jowett's Place ' I'm assuming, in this case, that a Mr Jowett owned or built the properties. There's a ' Jowett Street ' not far away with no ' s ' or apostrophe.
HO
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That's what I thought when I read it. Unless they have some earlier reference. But the story says this only applies to new names.
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Spotted on the Telegraph site this morning:
Dave Lee Travis 'told police groping women was norm in 1970s'
I didn't think the BIBs had a monopoly.
;>)
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Lucky Police!
I spotted on the back of a bottle of washing-up liquid today that the directions are: "Squirt liquid into bowl or sink in warm water"
Bit tricky to achieve that but I'm working on it.....
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I bought a new battery charger from Halfords a month ago....my 40 yr old one ist kaput.
Just looked at a slip of paper in the box. ' Suitable for engines of up to 1800cc or over '
Huh ????
HO
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That is not bad grammar - it is functional illiteracy!
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Try tossing into a green salad.
The News Quiz had that one. I'm remembering it in the voice of Charlotte Green.
Ahhh
But I think it may have been Susan Rae.
Ahhh again.
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>> I'm remembering it in the voice of Charlotte Green.
She of 'cross flannel cherry' fame.
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It may be best to sit down to read the following. Ensure all weapons are out of range.
Warning!
Avoid if you are suffering from high blood pressure etc.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25912674
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There's nothing new about this hk. Anyone who has had anything to do with schoolchildren over the last thirty years knows that enormous numbers of teachers can't read or write, or add or subtract, or utter a proper sentence.
That includes head teachers obviously. Some of the documents I've read from children's/grandchildren's schools have been beyond belief. One of the reasons perhaps for my chronic high blood pressure.
That said, I have an old friend who was a head teacher for years and moved on to further education. But he was at school with me and can read and write.
When I tried teaching I could read and write but it made no difference: I was still lousy. Other things seemed to count more than basic literacy. It was a bit like that when I was at school too, but the three rs were thought important in those days. No longer alas.
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>> Look away if apostrophes aren't interesting to you.
Drivers going past Sonning Bridge, near Reading, have expressed annoyance at a closed road sign which uses an incorrect apostrophe.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26351494
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I'd rather we were getting angry at Oxfordshire council's complete lack of action on repairing the road to get it re-opened, frankly. It's causing major traffic problems in Reading. But, of course, NIMBY Oxfordshire don't care, nor will they sanction the new bridge we desperately need.
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>> nor will they sanction the new bridge we desperately need.
Never say never
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-27190454
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That is a proposal to lift the existing road above the fields prone to flooding. They will argue that this will make a new bridge unnecessary.
Which is a LOOB.
It's a tactic in their fight against a new bridge. Biggest NIMBY-minded shenanigans ever, been going on for 50 years now.
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To be fair, putting a new, bigger stronger bridge in Sonning would be daft. A whole 'nother route/road is required.
....which is the conclusion that has been reached every single time. Before it gets shelved because nobody wants to build it.
And I think its closer to 60 years.
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I know NF. No-one is asking for a new bridge in Sonning itself, rather a new bridge bypassing Sonning. So OCC proposing to raise the existing road is a red herring. It's not about the rare occasions it floods anyway. The existing route is hopelessly outdated and needs bypassing, with a link from the A3290 to Lower Caversham, and a new road round the east and north of Cavsersham to the A4074.
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Amen to all that from the Oxfordshire side of the river. Apparently OCC's nightmare vision is of traffic using the A4074 to get from Oxford to the M4. It's one of the few roads round here that still allow proper driving, so perhaps someone at OCC wants to preserve it as a monument.
...but, of course, NIMBY Oxfordshire don't care...
It feels more like 'can't be bothered' with OCC. I've been to Headington several times lately, and there's a stretch of the A40 just inside the Eastern Ring Road where the surface has simply gone. It has what must be an unenforceable bus lane because the markings are barely there, and when I had to stop a little abruptly at a red pelican light, the whole car skittered about as the tyres hunted for some road to grip. First visit was eight months ago, so it's not something that's just happened.
Nearer home, there's a bit round the corner that seemed to subside into an underground drain last summer. The first attempt to excavate and repair failed, and since then every few weeks two blokes with a wheelbarrow have shovelled a bit more loose Tarmac into the depression, bashed it flattish and hoped for the best. Must have done that four times now and it still keeps sinking. OCC is simply rubbish at roads.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:54
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>>OCC is simply rubbish at roads.
More concise, and no less accurate, would be "OCC is simply rubbish".
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That's what I wrote at first, then relented a little when I considered that they're actually quite good at recycling and waste collection.
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Almost as much fun as those signs you see from time to time with "Advanced Warning" printed on them. Sigh.
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Email from Garmin today, subject: "Putting VIRB through it’s paces" :o
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Oh, that pesky grammar - Zero
