| Motoring Discussion > Driving Test Pass rates | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: No FM2R | Replies: 83 |
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New Wed 1 Jan 14 17:32
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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www.drivingtesttips.biz/driving-test-pass-rates.html From a low of 36% to a high of 76% seems like one hell of a spread? Surely more than simply environmental issues like road size and amount of traffic can account for? |
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New Wed 1 Jan 14 17:48
Driving Test Pass rates - madf
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Simples Pay someone to sit it for you - and don't get caught.. or live in the Boondocks. See FortWilliam 70% + Or a high "ethnic " population - see Bradford sub 40% Last edited by: madf on Wed 1 Jan 14 at 17:50
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New Wed 1 Jan 14 18:03
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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I don't even see what you're getting at. Further I think you'll find you're using the word "ethnic" incorrectly. Are you saying that a place such as Bradford is full of people who take their own tests whereas in Fort William there are "professionals" available? Or that its all down to population density? Or that somehow religious or cultural differences cause differing driving abilities? |
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New Wed 1 Jan 14 18:19
Driving Test Pass rates - Robin O'Reliant
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Cultural differences. When I was instructing in London Wood Green and Wanstead had the lowest pass rates in the country, the test centre clientele at both places was about 90% of candidates with limited English speaking ability who were raised in a totally different environment. Many did not have the money to take sufficient lessons either. Add in the fact that test centres in areas of high ethnic population are where the busiest roads are and you can see the reason for the discrepancies in the pass rates. Lowly populated regions always had a high pass rate. |
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New Wed 1 Jan 14 20:03
Driving Test Pass rates - Bromptonaut
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>> Or a high "ethnic " population - see Bradford sub 40% I'm going to play the Not a dig at madf but..... Even in quotes the term ethnic used that way is incorrect and verges on offensive. Too often it's used by folks who pronounce it effniks and amounts to ill concealed racism. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 1 Jan 14 at 20:04
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 00:12
Driving Test Pass rates - Harleyman
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>> Too often it's used by folks who pronounce it effniks and amounts to ill concealed >> racism. >> And too often people are put off speaking their minds by the threat of being called racist by well-meaning liberals should they even dare to mention Asians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis or whatever, hence the creeping use of "ethnic" in much the same way as Americans say "rest-room" instead of "toilet". This is not a poke at you BTW Bromp but it has to be said. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 00:16
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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>>too often people are put off speaking their minds by the threat of being called racist So, people are put off from saying something racist because of a fear of being called racist? |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 00:24
Driving Test Pass rates - Harleyman
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>> >>too often people are put off speaking their minds by the threat of being called >> racist >> >> So, people are put off from saying something racist because of a fear of being >> called racist? >> >> >> I rest my case. No, people are put off saying the blindingly obvious ( for example that there is a high immigrant population in Bradford and this may well be a contributory factor to the low pass rate) because they fear being labelled racist for saying so. Last edited by: Harleyman on Thu 2 Jan 14 at 00:24
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 01:00
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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>> for example that there is a high immigrant population in Bradford and this may well be a contributory factor to the low pass rate I see nothing wrong, and certainly not racist, with your statement [above]. Makes perfect sense that people not used to UK Roads, driving habits etc. etc. will fail more. No problem. >>...........a high "ethnic " population............. However, I find this statement dubious at best and bigoted and racist at worst. What on earth can be the relationship between religion, culture or family history and a bad performance at a driving test? Is the point that if you are not of the right / normal / same / whatever religion, from the right culture or have the right ancestry then you will be, by definition, unable to achieve the pass rates of someone who is from another ethnic group? e.g. I don't care that you were born in this country, have lived or your life in this country, are British etc. etc., you're from a different ethnic group to me so you won't be as likely to pass your test. And that would be assuming that the speaker knew what an ethnic group was, whereas it may well be that their ignorance even covers that understanding. Not only would I accept your first statement, I'd probably believe there to be truth in it. Had you made the second statement I would suspect and probably believe you to be prejudiced. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 2 Jan 14 at 01:01
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 16:06
Driving Test Pass rates - Harleyman
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I am suggesting that the second is becoming commonly used nowadays as a euphemism for the first. Blame PC-speak for that; personally I very much doubt if most people say it out of malice, more likely because they think it's less offensive. I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not defending it. It probably is out of ignorance, in the purest sense of THAT word, inasmuch as many don't understand the difference between the two. We should be thankful that we do use some of these euphemisms. You don't hear of inner-city areas being referred to as ghettoes but in the strictest sense of the word that's what they are; "a part of a city, especially a slum area, occupied by a minority group or groups." Last edited by: Harleyman on Thu 2 Jan 14 at 16:09
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 16:35
Driving Test Pass rates - Bromptonaut
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>> I am suggesting that the second is becoming commonly used nowadays as a euphemism for >> the first. Blame PC-speak for that; personally I very much doubt if most people say >> it out of malice, more likely because they think it's less offensive. Maybe that is an interesting reflection on usage. West Wales is not, I guess, an area in which one sees many people from Black and Minority Ethnic (BEM) backgrounds. Terminology and what is thought of as 'PC' may be very different from London. I write from Northants but with the perspective of recent employment in London. Tweny years ago we had a plumber here who used the word 'darkies' without any malice (or any clue that it might shock). The term 'immigrants' is only really applicable to recent arrivals. The three members of staff in my last office who were non white were all UK born ladies in their forties. They'd happily describe themselves as BEM and as West African or Caribbean as a sub group. Describing them collectively as ethnics would be offensive. Not quite at the level of the N word but it would not pass without comment and reprimand. NoFM set out the practical reasons why earlier. Socially/politically in areas wit a cultural mix the word has become associated with the pronunciation 'effnics' and use by those with just enough wit to realise than N or P word might cause offence - even in all white company. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 16:45
Driving Test Pass rates - Harleyman
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>> Maybe that is an interesting reflection on usage. West Wales is not, I guess, an >> area in which one sees many people from Black and Minority Ethnic (BEM) backgrounds. Terminology >> and what is thought of as 'PC' may be very different from London. >> >> I write from Northants but with the perspective of recent employment in London. Tweny years >> ago we had a plumber here who used the word 'darkies' without any malice (or >> any clue that it might shock). >> >> The term 'immigrants' is only really applicable to recent arrivals. >> >> The three members of staff in my last office who were non white were all >> UK born ladies in their forties. They'd happily describe themselves as BEM and as West >> African or Caribbean as a sub group. Describing them collectively as ethnics would be offensive. >> Not quite at the level of the N word but it would not pass without >> comment and reprimand. NoFM set out the practical reasons why earlier. >> >> Socially/politically in areas wit a cultural mix the word has become associated with the pronunciation >> 'effnics' and use by those with just enough wit to realise than N or P >> word might cause offence - even in all white company. >> You'd be in for a rude shock down here then.... it's often said that rural Wales is a fair few years behind the times and I quite often hear the "P" word applied to darker-skinned people of various ethnic origins. Then again, being an ethnic minority myself it's probably wise to let 'em get on with it....;-) |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 21:54
Driving Test Pass rates - Westpig
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>> However, I find this statement dubious at best and bigoted and racist at worst. What >> on earth can be the relationship between religion, culture or family history and a bad >> performance at a driving test? >> >> Is the point that if you are not of the right / normal / same >> / whatever religion, from the right culture or have the right ancestry then you will >> be, by definition, unable to achieve the pass rates of someone who is from another >> ethnic group? If you think something and it's race related...and not overtly offensive...should you be banned from discussing it? So if I wonder why so many Indian women seem to be crap drivers, should I really have kept that to to myself..or..am I allowed to discuss it...so that someone could come up with a solution as to either why that is or why I am wrong in my viewpoint. However, closing me down, through the liberal usage of the term 'racist' isn't healthy..because those that might have misconceived ideas on some aspects of life, will never learn the bigger picture....and...those that unnecessarily bandy the racist slur about never get properly challenged...and...both are wrong. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 09:13
Driving Test Pass rates - CGNorwich
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No need to speculate chaps. Here are the official government statistics relating to driving tests. You will see that they are analysed every which way including sex,ethnic origins and age. Hours of fun for armchair analysts! You will need Excel or similar to download. www.gov.uk/government/publications/car-practical-driving-test-operational-statistics |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 16:18
Driving Test Pass rates - madf
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>> >> Or a high "ethnic " population - see Bradford sub 40% >> >> I'm going to play the >> >> Not a dig at madf but..... >> >> Even in quotes the term ethnic used that way is incorrect and verges on offensive. >> >> >> Too often it's used by folks who pronounce it effniks and amounts to ill concealed >> racism. >> . Last edited by: madf on Thu 2 Jan 14 at 16:19
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New Wed 1 Jan 14 18:14
Driving Test Pass rates - Zero
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>> Surely more than simply environmental issues like road size and amount of traffic can account >> for? nope. Most of the high fail rates are in traffic hell holes, and the high pass rates are in the sticks. Sure there are some exceptions, but mostly it fits. |
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New Wed 1 Jan 14 20:00
Driving Test Pass rates - Bromptonaut
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Not much of a story really. The vast majority are a few points either side of 50%. Some tendency for lowest to be in major cities where traffic and social factors are in play. High rates in rural Scotland with low traffic density and liklihood a fair number of candidates will have had opportunity to cut driving teeth off the highway. Reminder. We all have ethnic origin. No obvious factor for ethnicity whether white, black, south Asian or Chinese. |
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New Wed 1 Jan 14 20:57
Driving Test Pass rates - Shiny
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| Like hello! "ethnic" is colloquiel short for ethnic minority. |
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New Wed 1 Jan 14 21:12
Driving Test Pass rates - Bromptonaut
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>> Like hello! "ethnic" is colloquial short for ethnic minority. Maybe, sometimes and by the unthinking. It's too often used in the sense I suggested upthread to gain any validity as shorthand in polite conversation. |
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New Wed 1 Jan 14 21:45
Driving Test Pass rates - Armel Coussine
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Bromptonaut is quite right of course. However the level and quality of discourse varies greatly between individuals and social groups, and is bound to vary in a place like this. Not everyone who uses 'ethnic' like that is racist. But not being racist doesn't necessarily sensitize a person to the nuanced racism so familiar to us all. Not all people who aren't especially racist can be bothered to comment on what may seem to them to be quibbling distinctions. Some may see it as that egregious thing, taking gratuitous, theatrical offence on behalf of others. Some use words in a precise manner and some don't. All these phenomena can be observed in this very place. I usually try to keep out of it but don't always succeed. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 08:53
Driving Test Pass rates - Collos
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| I think the number who actually took a test is the most interesting figure it was down a tremendous amount. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 18:00
Driving Test Pass rates - madf
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The pass rates from Bradford suggest ethnicity is THE major factor. : Bradford (Heaton) Asian or Asian British 763 288 37.7 Black or Black British 65 19 29.2 Chinese 7 2 28.6 Mixed 51 21 41.2 No Preference Given 6,723 2,420 36.0 Other 66 32 48.5 Prefer not to say 39 15 38.5 White 468 225 48.1 Bradford (Heaton) 8,182 3,022 36.9 White 48% .. Overall 36.9% |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 19:36
Driving Test Pass rates - Bromptonaut
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>> The pass rates from Bradford suggest ethnicity is THE major factor. >> >> : >> Bradford (Heaton) >> Asian or Asian British 763 288 37.7 >> Black or Black British 65 19 29.2 >> Chinese 7 2 28.6 >> Mixed 51 21 41.2 >> No Preference Given 6,723 2,420 36.0 >> Other 66 32 48.5 >> Prefer not to say 39 15 38.5 >> White 468 225 48.1 >> Bradford (Heaton) 8,182 3,022 36.9 >> >> >> White 48% .. >> Overall 36.9% What does 'no preference given' mean? As it covers 85% of candidates it's a big factor. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 20:12
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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>>The pass rates from Bradford suggest ethnicity is THE major factor No. They do not. I know you deeply wish they did, but they don't. Firstly the vast majority do not give any clues as to their ethnic group. Secondly, you are making a wishful link. Since the number one reason for failure is action or anticipation at a road junction, I would suggest that familiarity with the roads is THE major factor. How would you relate that to ethnicity? As opposed to, say, recent immigration? Or do you think that they are the same thing? |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 09:03
Driving Test Pass rates - Cliff Pope
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>> the high >> pass rates are in the sticks. >> >> Sure there are some exceptions, but mostly it fits. >> It certainly seems to, comparing the test centres nearest to us. But what exactly is the test measuring? It can't be an absolute standard, because surely that would require a complete mix of traffic conditions, unavailable in remoter areas. Is it measuring how well the candidate copes with whatever kind of traffic is encountered on the test? It's obviously more difficult driving in a traffic hell-hole, but why should that produce a higher failure rate? Are candidates in those circumstances expected to exhibit a proportionately higher ability to cope? If that is the case, you'd have thought a pass from a hell-hole centre would carry more weight, eg with insurance companies, just like a degree from a more challenging university. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 15:22
Driving Test Pass rates - Bromptonaut
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There is actually quite a wide variation in pass rates in remote Scotland. Fort William, Lochgilphead and Lerwick (Shetland) are high. OTOH the three centres on the Western Isles - Stornoway, Balivanich (Uist/Benbecula) and Barra are around average. Stornoway is the only place on the chain most of us would recognise as a town. A partial one way system, busy periods around ferry arrival departure and even in last few years traffic lights. A long way from Tarbert or Ness where single track roads are the norm and the bigest hazard is the sheep. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 16:21
Driving Test Pass rates - madf
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You must remember some remote towns - certainly when I passed my test - had no traffic lights , zebra crossings or roundabouts... I would imagine traffic in Fort William is as sleepy now as when I was last there in the 1960s.. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 16:24
Driving Test Pass rates - Alanovich
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| I remember a rural cousin passing his test on his 17th birthday (Carmarthen centre). This after years of driving stuff around fields and woodlands, no lessons at all. 1987. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 16:26
Driving Test Pass rates - Runfer D'Hills
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| Sleepier most probably. Angus has put his Morris Minor on sorn I hear, but in fairness Morag now has a Fiesta so it might be similar. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 16:37
Driving Test Pass rates - Old Navy
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Its the ex-pat tourists you have to watch out for, even though they drive on the left most of the time, unlike the continental residents. :-)
Last edited by: Uncle Albert on Thu 2 Jan 14 at 16:37
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 19:57
Driving Test Pass rates - RattleandSmoke
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The centre I passed at has closed so it is hard to compare, I think it was around 35%. it was replaced by West Didsbury which is about 3.5 miles down the road in a more affluent area. West Didsbury has a pass rate of 45.1%. Certainly rural areas have a higher pass rate, I think this is partly because less traffic means less unpredictable things you might have to deal with. Innercity areas tend to also have low pass rates because there is a much higher amount of people who don't speak good English and also people tend to be poorer and thus not as well prepared./ |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 20:05
Driving Test Pass rates - RattleandSmoke
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Just done a very quick sort in Excel. Beverley LVG Driving Test Centre - Brodick (Isle of Arran) Driving Test Centre - Campbeltown Driving Test Centre - Gairloch Driving Test Centre - Golspie Driving Test Centre - Grantown-On-Spey Driving Test Centre - Gravesend Driving Test Centre - Inveraray Driving Test Centre - Island of Mull (Salen) Driving Test Centre - Islay Island Driving Test Centre - Isle of Skye (Broadford) Driving Test Centre - Isle of Skye (Portree) Driving Test Centre - Isle of Tiree Driving Test Centre - Kingussie Driving Test Centre - Kyle of Lochalsh Driving Test Centre - Lairg Driving Test Centre - Mallaig Driving Test Centre - Rothesay Driving Test Centre - South Uist Island Driving Test Centre - Ullapool Driving Test Centre - Whalley Range - Wanstead Driving Test Centre 36.70% pass rate Bradford (Heaton) Driving Test Centre 36.90% pass rate Wood Green Driving Test Centre 38.20% pass rate Brentwood Driving Test Centre 38.60% pass rate Wednesbury Driving Test Centre 39.00% pass rate Barking Driving Test Centre 39.20% pass rate Belvedere Driving Test Centre 39.50% pass rate Barnet Driving Test Centre 39.60% pass rate Paisley Driving Test Centre 39.70% pass rate Stevenage Driving Test Centre 39.80% pass rate Bradford (Thornbury) Driving Test Centre 40.30% pass rate Leeds Driving Test Centre 40.50% pass rate Goodmayes Driving Test Centre 40.60% pass rate Glasgow (Shieldhall) Driving Test Centre 40.80% pass rate Hamilton Driving Test Centre 41.20% pass rate Rochdale Driving Test Centre 41.20% pass rate Colchester Driving Test Centre 41.40% pass rate Coventry Driving Test Centre 41.60% pass rate Rhyl Driving Test Centre 41.70% pass rate Chelmsford Driving Test Centre 41.90% pass rate Birmingham (South Yardley) Driving Test Centre 42.00% pass rate Basildon Driving Test Centre 42.20% pass rate Heckmondwike Driving Test Centre 42.20% pass rate Birmingham (Kingstanding) Driving Test Centre 42.30% pass rate Wrexham Driving Test Centre 42.70% pass rate Hither Green Driving Test Centre 43.00% pass rate St Albans Driving Test Centre 43.00% pass rate Barnsley Driving Test Centre 43.30% pass rate Lanark Driving Test Centre 43.40% pass rate Wakefield Driving Test Centre 43.40% pass rate Luton Driving Test Centre 43.60% pass rate Elswick Driving Test Centre 43.90% pass rate Hayes Driving Test Centre 44.00% pass rate Glasgow (Baillieston) Driving Test Centre 44.20% pass rate Tilbury Driving Test Centre 44.20% pass rate Hornchurch Driving Test Centre 44.40% pass rate Birmingham (Kings Heath) Driving Test Centre 44.60% pass rate Chingford Driving Test Centre 44.60% pass rate Plymouth Driving Test Centre 44.60% pass rate Mill Hill Driving Test Centre 44.70% pass rate Failsworth Driving Test Centre 44.80% pass rate Leicester (Wigston) Driving Test Centre 44.90% pass rate Stirling Driving Test Centre 45.00% pass rate Leicester (Gipsy Lane) Driving Test Centre 45.10% pass rate West Didsbury Driving Test Centre 45.10% pass rate Birmingham (Garrets Green ) Driving Test Centre 45.20% pass rate Croydon Driving Test Centre 45.30% pass rate Erith Driving Test Centre 45.30% pass rate Hendon Driving Test Centre 45.30% pass rate Grimsby Driving Test Centre 45.40% pass rate Canterbury Driving Test Centre 45.70% pass rate Pontefract Driving Test Centre 45.70% pass rate Kilmarnock Driving Test Centre 45.80% pass rate Letchworth Driving Test Centre 45.90% pass rate Norris Green Driving Test Centre 46.00% pass rate Enfield Driving Test Centre 46.20% pass rate Glasgow (Springburn Park) Driving Test Centre 46.20% pass rate South Norwood Driving Test Centre 46.20% pass rate Redditch (Worcs) Driving Test Centre 46.30% pass rate Widnes Driving Test Centre 46.30% pass rate Wallasey Driving Test Centre 46.50% pass rate Stoke on Trent Driving Test Centre 46.60% pass rate Cheetham Hill Driving Test Centre 46.90% pass rate Chester Driving Test Centre 47.10% pass rate Bishops Stortford Driving Test Centre 47.20% pass rate Greenford Driving Test Centre 47.20% pass rate Hastings Driving Test Centre 47.20% pass rate Scunthorpe Driving Test Centre 47.20% pass rate Loughton Driving Test Centre 47.30% pass rate Rotherham Driving Test Centre 47.40% pass rate Gateshead Driving Test Centre 47.50% pass rate Clacton-on-Sea Driving Test Centre 47.60% pass rate Gillingham Driving Test Centre 47.70% pass rate Airdrie Driving Test Centre 47.80% pass rate Glasgow (Anniesland) Driving Test Centre 47.80% pass rate Hull Driving Test Centre 47.80% pass rate Chesterfield Driving Test Centre 47.90% pass rate Newcastle-Under-Lyme Driving Test Centre 47.90% pass rate Morden Driving Test Centre 48.00% pass rate Edinburgh (Currie) Driving Test Centre 48.20% pass rate Bedford Driving Test Centre 48.30% pass rate Isleworth Driving Test Centre 48.30% pass rate Bala Driving Test Centre 48.40% pass rate Blackburn with Darwen Driving Test Centre 48.50% pass rate Crawley Driving Test Centre 48.50% pass rate Sidcup Driving Test Centre 48.70% pass rate Borehamwood Driving Test Centre 48.80% pass rate Burton on Trent Driving Test Centre 49.00% pass rate Portsmouth Driving Test Centre 49.00% pass rate Herne Bay Driving Test Centre 49.10% pass rate Southall Driving Test Centre 49.10% pass rate Leighton Buzzard Driving Test Centre 49.30% pass rate Sunderland Driving Test Centre 49.40% pass rate Cheltenham Driving Test Centre 49.50% pass rate Dunfermline Driving Test Centre 49.50% pass rate Sale Driving Test Centre 49.50% pass rate Southampton (Forest Hills) Driving Test Centre 49.60% pass rate Birmingham (Sutton Coldfield) Driving Test Centre 49.70% pass rate Bristol (Kingswood) Driving Test Centre 49.70% pass rate Aylesbury Driving Test Centre 49.80% pass rate Huddersfield Driving Test Centre 49.90% pass rate Ballachulish Driving Test Centre 50.00% pass rate Barra Island Driving Test Centre 50.00% pass rate Doncaster Driving Test Centre 50.00% pass rate Preston Driving Test Centre 50.00% pass rate Warrington Driving Test Centre 50.00% pass rate Longbenton Driving Test Centre 50.20% pass rate Horsforth Driving Test Centre 50.30% pass rate Irvine Driving Test Centre 50.30% pass rate Sutton Driving Test Centre 50.30% pass rate Blackpool Driving Test Centre 50.40% pass rate Darlington Driving Test Centre 50.40% pass rate Kettering Driving Test Centre 50.40% pass rate Slough Driving Test Centre 50.40% pass rate Castle Douglas Driving Test Centre 50.50% pass rate Winchester Driving Test Centre 50.50% pass rate Chertsey Driving Test Centre 50.60% pass rate Dumfries Driving Test Centre 50.60% pass rate Lowestoft Driving Test Centre 50.60% pass rate South Shields Driving Test Centre 50.60% pass rate Eastbourne Driving Test Centre 50.70% pass rate Southport Driving Test Centre 50.70% pass rate Middlesbrough Driving Test Centre 51.00% pass rate Perth Driving Test Centre 51.00% pass rate Pinner Driving Test Centre 51.00% pass rate Birmingham (Shirley) Driving Test Centre 51.20% pass rate Dumbarton Driving Test Centre 51.20% pass rate Skipton Driving Test Centre 51.20% pass rate Upton Driving Test Centre 51.20% pass rate Worcester Driving Test Centre 51.20% pass rate Bredbury Driving Test Centre 51.30% pass rate Peterborough Driving Test Centre 51.30% pass rate Inverness Driving Test Centre 51.40% pass rate St Helens Driving Test Centre 51.40% pass rate Worksop Driving Test Centre 51.40% pass rate Kings Lynn Driving Test Centre 51.50% pass rate Wolverhampton Driving Test Centre 51.50% pass rate Ashford (Middlesex) Driving Test Centre 51.60% pass rate Garston Driving Test Centre 51.60% pass rate Halifax Driving Test Centre 51.60% pass rate Telford Driving Test Centre 51.60% pass rate Uxbridge Driving Test Centre 51.60% pass rate Bathgate Driving Test Centre 51.70% pass rate Gloucester Driving Test Centre 51.70% pass rate Lower Gornal Driving Test Centre 51.80% pass rate berdeen (Balgownie Road) Driving Test Centre 52.00% pass rate Nottingham (Chalfont Drive) Driving Test Centre 52.00% pass rate Falkirk Driving Test Centre 52.10% pass rate Ayr Driving Test Centre 52.20% pass rate Elgin Driving Test Centre 52.20% pass rate Llanelli Driving Test Centre 52.20% pass rate Nottingham (Colwick) Driving Test Centre 52.20% pass rate Kirkcaldy Driving Test Centre 52.30% pass rate Reading Driving Test Centre 52.30% pass rate Dundee Driving Test Centre 52.40% pass rate Edinburgh (Musselburgh) Driving Test Centre 52.40% pass rate Callander Driving Test Centre 52.50% pass rate Nelson Driving Test Centre 52.50% pass rate Bury St Edmunds Driving Test Centre 52.60% pass rate Basingstoke Driving Test Centre 52.70% pass rate Workington Driving Test Centre 52.70% pass rate Loughborough Driving Test Centre 52.80% pass rate Nuneaton Driving Test Centre 52.80% pass rate Newport (Gwent) Driving Test Centre 52.90% pass rate Tolworth Driving Test Centre 52.90% pass rate Watford Driving Test Centre 52.90% pass rate Bangor Driving Test Centre 53.00% pass rate Sheffield (Parkway) Driving Test Centre 53.00% pass rate Stornoway Driving Test Centre 53.00% pass rate Worthing Driving Test Centre 53.00% pass rate Exeter Driving Test Centre 53.10% pass rate Ludlow Driving Test Centre 53.10% pass rate Newport (Isle of Wight) Driving Test Centre 53.20% pass rate Northampton Driving Test Centre 53.20% pass rate Penzance Driving Test Centre 53.40% pass rate Shrewsbury Driving Test Centre 53.40% pass rate Banbury Driving Test Centre 53.50% pass rate Barry Driving Test Centre 53.50% pass rate Bletchley Driving Test Centre 53.50% pass rate Folkestone Driving Test Centre 53.50% pass rate Derby Driving Test Centre 53.60% pass rate Weston-Super-Mare Driving Test Centre 53.70% pass rate Hexham Driving Test Centre 53.80% pass rate Scarborough Driving Test Centre 53.80% pass rate Chichester Driving Test Centre 53.90% pass rate Chippenham Driving Test Centre 53.90% pass rate Lee on the Solent Driving Test Centre 54.00% pass rate Bodmin Driving Test Centre 54.10% pass rate Burgess Hill Driving Test Centre 54.10% pass rate Greenock Driving Test Centre 54.10% pass rate Oxford (Cowley) Driving Test Centre 54.10% pass rate Rugby Driving Test Centre 54.10% pass rate Whitchurch Driving Test Centre 54.10% pass rate Chorley Driving Test Centre 54.30% pass rate Sevenoaks Driving Test Centre 54.30% pass rate Atherton Driving Test Centre 54.40% pass rate Cambridge (Cowley Road) Driving Test Centre 54.50% pass rate Bournemouth Driving Test Centre 54.60% pass rate Hinckley Driving Test Centre 54.60% pass rate Macclesfield Driving Test Centre 54.60% pass rate Sheffield (Middlewood Road) Driving Test Centre 54.60% pass rate Ashfield Driving Test Centre 54.70% pass rate Bridgend Driving Test Centre 54.70% pass rate Cannock Driving Test Centre 54.70% pass rate Crewe Driving Test Centre 54.70% pass rate Hartlepool Driving Test Centre 54.70% pass rate Thurso Driving Test Centre 54.70% pass rate Lincoln Driving Test Centre 54.80% pass rate Reigate Driving Test Centre 54.80% pass rate Bolton Driving Test Centre 54.90% pass rate Bristol (Southmead) Driving Test Centre 54.90% pass rate Girvan Driving Test Centre 54.90% pass rate Hereford Driving Test Centre 54.90% pass rate Pontypridd Driving Test Centre 54.90% pass rate Salisbury Driving Test Centre 54.90% pass rate Lichfield Driving Test Centre 55.00% pass rate Newbury Driving Test Centre 55.00% pass rate Peebles Driving Test Centre 55.00% pass rate Stafford Driving Test Centre 55.10% pass rate Trowbridge Driving Test Centre 55.10% pass rate York Driving Test Centre 55.20% pass rate Swansea Driving Test Centre 55.30% pass rate Bridlington Driving Test Centre 55.40% pass rate Camborne Driving Test Centre 55.40% pass rate Hyde Driving Test Centre 55.40% pass rate Southampton (Maybush) Driving Test Centre 55.40% pass rate Swindon Driving Test Centre 55.40% pass rate West Wickham Driving Test Centre 55.50% pass rate Maidstone Driving Test Centre 55.60% pass rate Saltcoats Driving Test Centre 55.60% pass rate Barnstaple Driving Test Centre 55.70% pass rate Carmarthen Driving Test Centre 55.80% pass rate Heysham Driving Test Centre 55.90% pass rate High Wycombe Driving Test Centre 55.90% pass rate Cambridge (Chesterton Road) Driving Test Centre 56.00% pass rate Cardiff (Fairwater) Driving Test Centre 56.00% pass rate Fraserburgh Driving Test Centre 56.30% pass rate Wick Driving Test Centre 56.40% pass rate Ipswich Driving Test Centre 56.70% pass rate Aberdeen Driving Test Centre 56.80% pass rate Aberystwyth (Park Avenue) Driving Test Centre 56.80% pass rate Blyth Driving Test Centre 56.80% pass rate Duns Driving Test Centre 56.90% pass rate Knaresborough Driving Test Centre 56.90% pass rate Norwich Driving Test Centre 56.90% pass rate Westbury Driving Test Centre 57.00% pass rate Oswestry Driving Test Centre 57.10% pass rate Farnborough Driving Test Centre 57.20% pass rate Bristol (Brislington) Driving Test Centre 57.50% pass rate Abergavenny Driving Test Centre 57.60% pass rate Northwich Driving Test Centre 57.70% pass rate Yeovil Driving Test Centre 57.80% pass rate Ashford (Kent) Driving Test Centre 57.90% pass rate Pembroke Dock Driving Test Centre 58.00% pass rate Taunton Driving Test Centre 58.10% pass rate Warwick Driving Test Centre 58.10% pass rate Carlisle Driving Test Centre 58.20% pass rate Launceston Driving Test Centre 58.40% pass rate Newton Stewart Driving Test Centre 58.50% pass rate Guildford Driving Test Centre 58.70% pass rate Buckie Driving Test Centre 59.00% pass rate Forfar Driving Test Centre 59.30% pass rate Monmouth Driving Test Centre 59.30% pass rate Peterhead Driving Test Centre 59.40% pass rate Oban Driving Test Centre 59.50% pass rate Alnwick Driving Test Centre 59.70% pass rate Durham Meadowfield Driving Test Centre 60.80% pass rate Merthyr Tydfil Driving Test Centre 60.80% pass rate Haddington Driving Test Centre 61.00% pass rate Montrose Driving Test Centre 61.10% pass rate Huntly Driving Test Centre 61.20% pass rate Tunbridge Wells Driving Test Centre 61.20% pass rate Malton Driving Test Centre 61.30% pass rate Northallerton Driving Test Centre 61.30% pass rate Arbroath Driving Test Centre 61.50% pass rate Cardigan Driving Test Centre 61.50% pass rate Banff Driving Test Centre 61.60% pass rate Buxton Driving Test Centre 61.80% pass rate Louth Driving Test Centre 61.90% pass rate Alness Driving Test Centre 62.10% pass rate Galashiels Driving Test Centre 62.10% pass rate Newton Abbot Driving Test Centre 62.10% pass rate Hawick Driving Test Centre 62.30% pass rate Dorchester Driving Test Centre 62.40% pass rate Pwllheli Driving Test Centre 62.50% pass rate Melton Mowbray Driving Test Centre 62.70% pass rate Whitby Driving Test Centre 63.00% pass rate Brecon Driving Test Centre 63.10% pass rate Orkney (Kirkwall) Driving Test Centre 63.10% pass rate Skegness Driving Test Centre 63.60% pass rate Crieff Driving Test Centre 63.70% pass rate Newtown Driving Test Centre 63.80% pass rate Lampeter Driving Test Centre 63.90% pass rate Barrow In Furness Driving Test Centre 64.00% pass rate Boston Driving Test Centre 64.10% pass rate Berwick-On-Tweed Driving Test Centre 64.20% pass rate Grantham Driving Test Centre 64.30% pass rate Cumnock Driving Test Centre 64.70% pass rate Inverurie Driving Test Centre 65.60% pass rate Benbecula Island Driving Test Centre 66.00% pass rate Llandrindod Wells Driving Test Centre 66.70% pass rate Kelso Driving Test Centre 67.40% pass rate Dunoon Driving Test Centre 68.60% pass rate Kendal Driving Test Centre 69.50% pass rate Stranraer Driving Test Centre 70.50% pass rate Fort William Driving Test Centre 71.90% pass rate Lerwick Driving Test Centre 73.20% pass rate Lochgilphead Driving Test Centre 73.30% pass rate Ballater Driving Test Centre 76.20% pass rate I think the two major factors, ethnicity and geographic factors of the area tell all you need to know. Rhyl might seem unusual as it is in quite a rural area in North Wales but it is also an area of extreme poverty and lost of Eastern European immigrants who might not speak English that well. My nearest test centre is an area with lots of £1m+ properties but when realise it is also the major test centre for South Manchester the average pass rate becomes clearer. Either way all crap drivers need to sit their test at Ballater Driving Test centre!. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 21:01
Driving Test Pass rates - commerdriver
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| Proof, if proof were needed, that Scotsmen are the best drivers :-) |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 21:11
Driving Test Pass rates - Zero
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| or the worse examiners.... |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 21:14
Driving Test Pass rates - Zero
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just goes to prove, you really don't want to try and pass your test in East London. If I were a learner I wouldn't even consider it. In fact I didn't. I passed in Weybridge (now closed) - Had a good pass rate. |
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 21:27
Driving Test Pass rates - Harleyman
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The surprise is Stevenage. Relatively modern road system, traffic levels not as high as London, yet still under 40% pass rate. I lived there in the early 90's and still visit fairly regularly, it's not that bad a place to drive round. Last edited by: Harleyman on Thu 2 Jan 14 at 21:28
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New Thu 2 Jan 14 23:13
Driving Test Pass rates - CGNorwich
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| Yes Stevenage does look low. The two factors which reduce the average pass rates are a large proportion of Asian and Black candidates or a larger than average amount of women candidates. Looking at the statistics as a whole these groups generally have a lower pass rate. Stevenage does not have a preponderance of either of these groups. |
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 03:56
Driving Test Pass rates - madf
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>> Yes Stevenage does look low. The two factors which reduce the average pass rates are >> a large proportion of Asian and Black candidates or a larger than average amount of >> women candidates. Looking at the statistics as a whole these groups generally have a lower >> pass rate. Stevenage does not have a preponderance of either of these groups. >> Sorry.. your statement - although factual - is racist :-) according to some above |
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 08:25
Driving Test Pass rates - Zero
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| I thought he was being sexist as well. |
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 11:02
Driving Test Pass rates - Bromptonaut
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>> Sorry.. your statement - although factual - is racist :-) according to some above If that's really what the stats show then there's nothing inherently racist in saying so. My objection to the posts above was use of the words ethnic/ethnics. The next question is to ask why pass rates are lower for those groups. Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 3 Jan 14 at 12:59
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 11:17
Driving Test Pass rates - Zero
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>> The next question is to ask why pass rates are lower for those groups. Is it because the Highway Code is only available in English and Taff? And will it get worse when the Driving theory test can only be taken in those same languages? And is this a good or a bad thing? |
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 12:46
Driving Test Pass rates - Cliff Pope
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>> >> And is this a good or a bad thing? >> It depends whether the purpose of a driving test is to identify substandard drivers and prevent them from joining the car-driving community, or merely to delay them and put their names back in the lottery for another 45-70 % chance of success. Only a tiny proportion of drivers never succeed in passing. Does that really mean the others have eventually all been brought up to standard? |
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 11:33
Driving Test Pass rates - Robin O'Reliant
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>> The next question is to ask why pass rates are lower for those groups. In my own experience working mainly in east London it was very difficult to persuade Asian pupils to take enough lessons before their test, and to a slightly lesser extent the same was true of black pupils. They had the attitude that once they could actually move the car unaided they should apply even though you were telling them they were not ready. I would never let anyone who I considered below standard to have my car for a test but there were plenty who would just take the money so they went to them instead. Women have a lower pass rate because they take the test to personally. If they find the examiner a bit off putting they can go to pieces whereas the average male will just shrug his shoulders and get on with it. Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 3 Jan 14 at 13:00
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 16:19
Driving Test Pass rates - Westpig
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>> If that's really what the stats show then there's nothing inherently racist in saying so. That might well be the case..but there's still an army of people out there willing to try to stop you saying it, because it 'offends' their idea of what racism is about..you know the type, the ones that will make themselves offended on behalf of those they think ought to be offended, but often/usually aren't. >> My objection to the posts above was use of the words ethnic/ethnics. You shouldn't object really. Not everyone can keep up with the constant shift...one minute a word is acceptable, the next minute it isn't. Unless you are in an organisation that a myriad of people looking out for it and constantly updating you, it's simple to slip up. It was once acceptable to say 'coloured', now it isn't, although it remains factually correct in some/most cases. There will come a time when BME will not be appropriate, yet it is at the moment..and with this, why is it acceptable to be able to say' Black and Minority Ethnic', but not 'Black and Ethnic Minority'? Someone who pops over from another planet, will leave scratching his/her/its head. The people that need challenging are the out and out unpleasant who would do someone down purely because of:....(insert whatever it is that they don't like...most recently on here it was fat people)....not the inadvertent users of language that used to be alright, but has changed and they haven't noticed. |
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 16:16
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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>>your statement - although factual - is racist :-) Correct? >>The two factors which reduce the average pass rates are a large proportion of Asian and >>Black candidates (ditto female) So you see that as a direct cause/effect relationship? -> If there are more asian/black, the fail rate *will* be higher. And how do you think being Asian/Black is causing that? Or do you just believe that *they* are worse drivers than *us*? Or perhaps in those areas there are more Black/Asian actually attempting their test and so *that* may be why the proportions are different? A "correct" statement would be that "of the people who failed the larger proportion is Asian/Black". That would be a statement of fact rather than some leap as to cause. |
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 16:50
Driving Test Pass rates - CGNorwich
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A "correct" statement would be that "of the people who failed the larger proportion is Asian/Black". No it wouldn't be correct at all. Of the people who failed the test the largest proportion overall is almost certainly white simply because more of them took the test. What is true is that in virtually every test centre the fail rate for those identified as black or asian is higher than those identified as white. Because of this it is also true that in every test centre with a significant number of asian or black candidates the pass rate is lower that if those black or asian candidates had not taken the test Why this should be I do not know and have not speculated upon. I would thank you for not attributing me with beliefs that I do not hold. |
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 18:24
Driving Test Pass rates - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> What is true is that in virtually every test centre the fail rate for those >> identified as black or asian is higher than those identified as white. Because of this >> it is also true that in every test centre with a significant number of asian >> or black candidates the pass rate is lower that if those black or asian candidates >> had not taken the test >> >> >> Why this should be I do not know and have not speculated upon. I >> would thank you for not attributing me with beliefs that I do not hold. >> As I said a few posts up, my own experience gained over two decades was that a significant proportion from those communities were not prepared to take the number of lessons required to reach test standard. |
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 18:38
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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>>I would thank you for not attributing me with beliefs that I do not hold. I repeated your sentence. If you haven't communicated your beliefs accurately, then you are of course free to correct. Or do you believe that accurate communication is the responsibility of the listener? In any case, in case it helps you cope, I was talking about your sentence and its treatment, not to you. |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 10:53
Driving Test Pass rates - Cliff Pope
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>> >> What is true is that in virtually every test centre the fail rate for those >> identified as black or asian is higher than those identified as white. Because of this >> it is also true that in every test centre with a significant number of asian >> or black candidates the pass rate is lower that if those black or asian candidates >> had not taken the test >> It might of course be that a higher proportion of black or asian candidates are women, another group that apparently does less well. Again, one can only speculate on insufficient data. Perhaps the men can drive already, and the women, being traditionally more secluded or less dominant in a household, have come to driving later in life. Or again. the age profile of different groups might be relevant. We are not told figures on pass rates by age, and we cannot assume that those would be the same across other groups. It's all a bit inconclusive and meaningless unless my original question is addressed - what is the test for? Is it supposed to be a uniform test of equal standard across the country, or is it intended to be appropriate for the traffic conditions local to the test centre? |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 11:14
Driving Test Pass rates - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> It's all a bit inconclusive and meaningless unless my original question is addressed - what >> is the test for? Is it supposed to be a uniform test of equal standard >> across the country, or is it intended to be appropriate for the traffic conditions local >> to the test centre? >> It's to demonstrate you can drive a car in a safe manner with no instruction. It can only take into account local conditions, you can't ship 1.1/2 million drivers to London every year to take a driving test. Anyone who spends their life sitting behind learner drivers becomes pretty adept at deciding whether a trainee knows what he or she is doing by the manner in which they handle the car, whether they are in busy traffic or on a quiet rural lane. After the test the only effective teacher is experience and how the individual uses it to improve their driving. Unfortunately, as in any walk of life someone can be an experienced idiot. The importance of the driving test is vastly over-rated, as if there is some training and testing method out there that will cure all ills if only we can discover it. There isn't, you can impart the skills and the knowledge needed to give a good grounding in what is required to be a safe driver but you have no control over the psychological make up of every individual who gains a driving licence and if someone is sloppy and incompetent in every other aspect of their life, or aggressive and violent or whatever else in the way of human flaws then it will carry through to how they behave behind the wheel. Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Sat 4 Jan 14 at 11:15
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 16:54
Driving Test Pass rates - Manatee
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Spot on Mark, allowing CG's correction which just shows how easy it is to slip up. You can infer very little useful from those numbers IMO, at least regarding the correlation between race and driving skill, when 85% don't answer the question and we have no insight into the other differences between the groups such as age, wealth, etc. For example, to the extent that you are seeing any trend at all, it might simply be that poor people do worse (maybe because they can't afford as many lessons, but that would be speculation too). Regarding "ethnic" - I just bought a jar of chilli powder. It says on the jar that it "ADDS FLAVOUR AND HEAT TO ETHNIC DISHES". Should I complain to Aldi? I strongly suspect it would add flavour and heat to non-ethnic dishes, whatever they are, as well. Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 3 Jan 14 at 16:56
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New Fri 3 Jan 14 09:29
Driving Test Pass rates - Collos
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| Most East Europeans will have come from an EU country and already have a driving licence. |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 08:18
Driving Test Pass rates - Fursty Ferret
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| I did my tractor driving test in deepest rural Devon when I was 14. The test consisted of driving up the high street, round the church, and back again. No passenger seats in a tractor... |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 10:49
Driving Test Pass rates - Robin O'Reliant
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>> I did my tractor driving test in deepest rural Devon when I was 14. The >> test consisted of driving up the high street, round the church, and back again. No >> passenger seats in a tractor... >> My bike test was pretty much the same, a couple of trips round the block with the examiner watching from the side of the road. A lot different from today's multi part mega expensive one. |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 18:49
Driving Test Pass rates - movilogo
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Pass rates for immigrants is expected to be lower because their home countries may not have same driving standard. However second generation migrants (frown up in UK) should have better pass rates. I wonder how many EU nationals will be able to pass British driving tests! |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 19:36
Driving Test Pass rates - Zero
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>> I wonder how many EU nationals will be able to pass British driving tests! I wonder how many Brits would pass an EU national driving test. |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 20:15
Driving Test Pass rates - Mark
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Ok Just to try and make this simple as I have not has the luxury of a public sector funded education about how these things should be discussed (following the arrival of the thought police) lets examine a simple Google search (just the first page on google) that I typed in for UK driving test fraud. The page brings back 10 main entries. The page is here: www.google.co.uk/search?q=driving+test+fraud&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr&ei=_mTIUrjQBoaw7Qap4oHoBQ Go through the names; an Allyson Ng seems to have been found guilty for selling test answers; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23608228 A Guillaume De Vendrines who even wore a plastic mask to take driving assessment test on behalf of others; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23402395 A Mr Ibrahim who along with many multicultural sounding colleagues committed a number of driving test frauds www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23419083 who Et all, Et all, et all www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/book-theory-test-onlinecouk-fined-85000-ripping-drivers-2047219 news.sky.com/story/1045674/police-crackdown-on-driving-test-fraud www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-407717/Lives-risk-driving-test-fraud-hits-terrifying-levels.html www.express.co.uk/news/uk/262788/Driving-test-cheats-jailed-for-ridiculous-scam Now this may be a very credible and obviously worthwhile “business” that helps those in genuine need. However will I be considered a little old fashioned if I find it difficult to see how all this crime comes from eh em lets say it “ethnic” minority perpetrators? Can this be that because in most parts of the developing world the driving test is not regarded as a test of competence rather as an ability to pay or to bribe? Or is for some other reason? Perhaps the “ethnic” minorities do truly struggle with lesson costs and test fees here in the UK and therefore need to find a way to avoid these costs; perhaps a grant should be made available to them. Whichever way you cut it the cake I do find it strange that the a minority of the UK population find it acceptable to become (at least on Google) the majority perpetrators of UK based driving test fraud. The obvious story here is that whilst we may regard the driving test as a way of keeping incompetent drivers off the road not all sectors of UK society might agree, rather they treat it as a straighforward commercial transaction with little regard to the potential consequences. As always Mark Last edited by: Mark on Sat 4 Jan 14 at 20:16
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 20:45
Driving Test Pass rates - Fullchat
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| Its academic really. If you hold an EU licence you can drive here for as long as the EU licence is valid. |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 20:46
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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I have no idea what your overall point is, however... Isn't a "public sector funded education" simply a state education, like most people have? Any why would you need that to know how "these things" should be discussed? And should I assume therefore that you had a private education? |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 20:53
Driving Test Pass rates - Armel Coussine
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| It's a load of cobblers FMR. He isn't saying anything. Mere flimflam. |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 20:58
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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| That's a relief, I thought I was missing a well hidden point. |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 22:29
Driving Test Pass rates - Westpig
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>> It's a load of cobblers FMR. He isn't saying anything. Mere flimflam. >> He's actually saying what a lot of people think..now whether you agree with the point or not is another matter..he has a right to think it and query it. If you think him wrong, debate it. I happen to think he has a point. Even if I thought him wrong (which I don't) he still has a right to think it and discuss it. |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 22:27
Driving Test Pass rates - Westpig
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>> Isn't a "public sector funded education" simply a state education, like most people have? I took that to mean that he hasn't been employed in the public sector and therefore has not 'benefited' from the education he would have received on how to conduct oneself with regards racial matters. >> Any why would you need that to know how "these things" should be discussed? So that you are not ridiculed or shot down in flames if you use a wrong word..or..accused of being racist if you wish to raise a perfectly valid point, but someone else doesn't like it. |
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New Sat 4 Jan 14 23:53
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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>>...........he hasn't been employed in the public sector and.......... Oh, got it now. Didn't see that at all. >>accused of being racist if you wish to raise a perfectly valid point, but someone else doesn't like it. Isn't that becoming a bit well-worn? I think its fairly clear when someone uses a wrong word or phrase trying to explain a point and when they are actually a racist. Obviously there will be misunderstandings, but I think there are far more cases of racists trying to hide behind this defense than there are people who are genuinely misunderstood. |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 00:56
Driving Test Pass rates - Armel Coussine
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If there is a point that Mark is making, it's very well concealed behind too many links and too many words. As far as I can make out, he is hinting broadly, without saying it, that driving test fraud is a criminal enterprise run by Asian and other third world immigrants. But there's a hell of a lot of nudge nudge wink win er hum 'ethnic' balderdash. I know what that means even if you say you don't Westpig. The suggestion that only people who have been employed in the public sector know how to talk about 'these matters' without sounding racist is the most ridiculous piece of balderdash I've seen here for ages (and that is really saying something). Mark may well be a fine fellow with respectable attitudes for all I know, despite the impression he gives in that post. But he can't write or make a point for toffee nuts. He needs to think more, rely less on weblinks and keep it short and to the point. And of course to keep shtum unless he actually has something worth saying that hasn't been rehearsed already ad nauseam. |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 01:06
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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My last 60 seconds; 1) Mild surprise that AC called me "Mark". 2) Gobsmacked and outraged when I read his opinions, for some reason I read the last paragraph first. 3) Mildly embarrassed and blushing to prove it when I realized he didn't mean me. |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 02:30
Driving Test Pass rates - Armel Coussine
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>> embarrassed and blushing Heh heh... Mark: person giving good imitation of closet racist, perhaps by accident. FMR: psychopathic individual provisionally on side of angels. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 5 Jan 14 at 02:30
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 01:39
Driving Test Pass rates - FocalPoint
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"The suggestion that only people who have been employed in the public sector know how to talk about 'these matters' without sounding racist is the most ridiculous piece of balderdash I've seen here for ages..." AC, to be scrupulously fair, Mark said, "...I have not has (?had) the luxury of a public sector funded education..." I'm not sure whether this makes much difference to your point, or whether Mark is merely sneering about other posters who supposedly have been educated privately. Last edited by: FocalPoint on Sun 5 Jan 14 at 01:39
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 02:22
Driving Test Pass rates - Armel Coussine
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Actually FP I was responding to Westpig's explanation of what he thought Mark meant by that. It didn't seem to mean anything to me, but I thought Westpig had understood the sentence better than I had. I found the whole tone of Mark's post very roundabout and annoying. People should say what they mean if they think they can get away with it. Someone clearly having difficulty saying something that ought to be simple is often trying to say something peripheral to the issue, but without actually saying it. Always deeply suspect, that (and damn distasteful). If Mark thinks Asian and other third world immigrants are more of a bunch of crooks than we are (personally I find the suggestion humiliating, we're just as crooked as them and more sophisticated) he should simply say so, not go nudge nudge wink wink like that. |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 13:03
Driving Test Pass rates - Westpig
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>> If Mark thinks Asian and other third world immigrants are more of a bunch of >> crooks than we are (personally I find the suggestion humiliating, we're just as crooked as >> them and more sophisticated) he should simply say so, not go nudge nudge wink wink >> like that. >> I took it to mean that there are more people from certain parts of the world (Pakistan for instance) that indulge in driving test fraud here, when compared to other members of our society ..because ...culturally it is a common practice where they or their families come from. That doesn't say all foreigners are more crooks than we are..or...those type of foreigners are more crooked than we are..just that, that particular community is more disposed to that particular crime. It is shameful to try to ensure it is ignored and cannot be discussed anywhere..that is why those young girls in Bradford were abused for so long and all the agencies ignored it..too afraid to pipe up and investigate the obvious. IMO, the reason why people like Mark wrap it up like they do..is they expect to be labelled racist, for merely raising the issue....whether or not they are racist. Mark might be BNP...however, he might not be. He might be right about the above, he might not be. I think however, he should be able to raise issues like this and debate them. I'm fairly sure Baroness Warsi has piped up with something similar on voting fraud. Edit...found it: tinyurl.com/nhl92eu It cannot surprise you that many people don't feel comfortable talking about race and when they do, it comes out half hearted..can you blame them? Last edited by: Westpig on Sun 5 Jan 14 at 13:07
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 13:16
Driving Test Pass rates - Armel Coussine
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>> It cannot surprise you that many people don't feel comfortable talking about race and when they do, it comes out half hearted..can you blame them? I'm not really surprised Wp, and I suppose you can't really blame them, but if it's so difficult for them, why do they try? Perhaps they are encouraged by the amount of crap from both sides - closet and 'anti' - especially on the internet, but also in the mainstream media. I nearly always regret making severe polemical posts. As in this case. |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 16:03
Driving Test Pass rates - Westpig
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>> I'm not really surprised Wp, and I suppose you can't really blame them, but if >> it's so difficult for them, why do they try? If it were me..it would be because I'd be thinking: - why shouldn't I express how I feel? - why shouldn't I be able to discuss the full picture? - if there's something wrong, why should it be brushed under the carpet? >> Perhaps they are encouraged by the >> amount of crap from both sides - closet and 'anti' - especially on the internet, >> but also in the mainstream media. ...and therein lies a main problem. If you have a mild or mildish viewpoint and it doesn't fit your opponents one...you get labelled as having an extreme viewpoint....which is pretty irritating, because it's a means of suppressing your perfectly entitled views, it's a means of closing you down. There are of course extreme views out there..and they are often hidden within the general views of the rest of us...but we aren't all extreme...and that applies to both sides. Last edited by: Westpig on Sun 5 Jan 14 at 16:04
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 16:57
Driving Test Pass rates - Bromptonaut
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>> I took it to mean that there are more people from certain parts of the >> world (Pakistan for instance) that indulge in driving test fraud here, when compared to other >> members of our society ..because ...culturally it is a common practice where they or their >> families come from. Is it true that driving license fraud is more common amongst some parts of the minority ethnic community in the UK than in the 'indigenous' white community? Investigating that my first inquiry would be to look for some numbers to tell me it's true. Media headlines don't do that. Particularly on parts of the the print side, words like immigrants, asylum seekers or Muslims are used to reinforce prejudices and sell papers. John Smith convicted of driving test fraud is less likely to be an Express headline than in Mohammed Iqbal is convicted. Westpig's suggestion that it's a cultural thing, unless born out by evidence, to my mind verges on racist as it takes a broad assumption about a culture and implies they're all at - even second/third generation generation. If those running the test centres have a similar perception they might be looking a lot harder at documentation for Asian candidates than for people with UK sounding names. There mat be other reasons for recent arrivals, asylum seekers and illegals, irrespective of their racial/cultural background, to 'buy' a license. It's not just a permit to drive but an identity document as well. They'll need it to open a bank account or prove identity for a myriad of purposes. It might also allow them to drive for a living. |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 17:42
Driving Test Pass rates - Westpig
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>> Is it true that driving license fraud is more common amongst some parts of the >> minority ethnic community in the UK than in the 'indigenous' white community? You'd need to look at the proportion of people from any given group, not just the whole numbers..because there might well be say (my figures for discussion purposes) a 15/85 split in crime figures from any given sub group against a main group..but the sub group might only number 2 or 3% of the population. >> >> Investigating that my first inquiry would be to look for some numbers to tell me >> it's true. Media headlines don't do that. Particularly on parts of the the print side, >> words like immigrants, asylum seekers or Muslims are used to reinforce prejudices and sell papers. >> John Smith convicted of driving test fraud is less likely to be an Express headline >> than in Mohammed Iqbal is convicted. Can we 100% agree on that...then move on to the fact that there might well be a disproportionate number from any given group who are likely to commit any given crime (whether or not the Press etc are unfair in how they report it). That is my general experience in 31 years of policing. A lot of Nigerians did bank/business fraud, quite a few Chinese illegally gambled, a lot of Romanians did ATM fraud, etc. >> >> Westpig's suggestion that it's a cultural thing, unless born out by evidence, to my mind >> verges on racist as it takes a broad assumption about a culture and implies they're >> all at - See, that's your prejudice coming out. I have given no implication whatsoever that they are 'all at it'..just that there may be disproportionate numbers from that given community 'at it'..(those disproportionate numbers could easily still be incredibly small in the big scheme of things and IMO probably are). I think that should be looked at and discussed and dealt with..not ignored just in case some think it racist. How else will you target that crime? Tail in donkey? Your viewpoint, highlights what I've said in other posts. You've tried to twist my angle into one that sees bad in all from an angle of race, one that is indeed overtly racist (let's face it, it's either racist* or it isn't)...yet all I'm saying is 'let's address why the numbers don't add up' and if that has to involve race or any given community..then so be it, be honest about it, deal with it. If you think about it..any police force targeting a criminal for any specific crime, that involves giving out a description based on skin colour or language, etc..is being racist if you follow a strict definition. >> even second/third generation generation. If those running the test centres have a >> similar perception they might be looking a lot harder at documentation for Asian candidates than >> for people with UK sounding names. They might be..and in some instances they'd be justified..if they need to look to reduce whatever crime/problem they are looking at...same principle as the Old Bill looking at young black men in some London Boroughs, when trying to address specific street crime...because it is people from that demographic that the victims are saying commit that crime in numbers. You'd be pretty inefficient if you ignored that element, albeit you have to obviously remember other people commit that crime as well...and.. a small proportion of that community are the ones committing the crimes. * using the definition that most would understand i.e. a negative connotation given to someone just because of their race etc..as opposed to any literal usage of the term racism. Last edited by: Westpig on Sun 5 Jan 14 at 17:45
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 17:41
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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>>..can you blame them? Yes. If you have a strongly held view, but someone can shut you up by saying that "your view is ...ist", then that view is not strongly held, nor particularly important to you. >> I think however, he should be able to raise issues like this and debate them. No, you think he should be able to raise issues like this and anybody who thinks that might be a racist point of view should not have the right to speak or challenge it. Essentially if I think something is racist, and I might be right or I might be wrong, I do not have the right to debate it. That to one side..... If someone is racist, and they voice racist views, *WHY* are they so offended by being called racist? If someone is not racist and is not voicing racist views, *WHY* are they so scared of the accusation? Mostly, I believe, because if it walks like a duck...... |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 19:04
Driving Test Pass rates - Armel Coussine
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>> because if it walks like a duck...... That's a solid point FMR. I agree. But in Westpig's defence, I would say that although I haven't met him I don't think he's racist, and accept his claim to have a 'mild or mildish' attitude to this issue, despite long experience of assorted crims, many of foreign origin, who may be all too eager to play the race card when rumbled. These are indeed complex issues whose complexity can be exploited by some. The real problem is one of discourse. Why should a copper after years of saying at intervals 'You're nicked, Rastus/Ali/Sebastian/whatever' suddenly click into bien-pensant journalist or writer mode and steer skilfully through the shoals of everyone's inflamed sensibilities? It's a bit much to expect really, even from an articulate person - coppers have to be able to string a sentence together - let alone someone who lacks vocabulary. That's one reason why I regret coming down so hard on that Mark, even if he did waddle and quack a bit. My own attitudes are far from mild but I don't really expect anyone else to share them fully or enjoy sailing close to the wind verbally as I do. Not everyone is a word pro. |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 20:18
Driving Test Pass rates - Westpig
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>> >> because if it walks like a duck...... >> >> That's a solid point FMR. I agree. How about...'that's all you want to see'. >> >> But in Westpig's defence, I would say that although I haven't met him I don't >> think he's racist, neither do I...but it depends on your definition. Personally I think I'm more 'realist' than 'racist', however, that's for others to judge. >> despite long experience of assorted crims, many of foreign origin, who may be >> all too eager to play the race card when rumbled. Oh, I can read through all that nonsense...it's irritating, but par for the course...if you don't rise to the bait, they'll usually calm down. >> The real problem is one of discourse. Why should a copper after years of saying >> at intervals 'You're nicked, Rastus/Ali/Sebastian/whatever' suddenly click into bien-pensant journalist or writer mode and steer >> skilfully through the shoals of everyone's inflamed sensibilities? It's a bit much to expect really, >> even from an articulate person - coppers have to be able to string a sentence >> together - let alone someone who lacks vocabulary. I read through that as well....by far the majority of the world's peoples are nice folk...it's just the awful that need sitting on..whoever they are..and from whatever background..and the rest of us should keep an open mind.. and... not allow the few to have over the many...and if on occasions that includes having to look at it from a race angle, so be it. >> >> That's one reason why I regret coming down so hard on that Mark, even if >> he did waddle and quack a bit. In your opinion |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 21:09
Driving Test Pass rates - Armel Coussine
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>> In your opinion Well obviously. But I'd be surprised if some others didn't share it. There's a way of coming on that sets one's teeth on edge, for pretty good reason. I am an experienced judge of that sort of thing, although anyone can be wrong about anything. A thing that often happens here is that anyone meeting resistance digs their heels in and insists, even when they are wrong. I think you may be doing that in this case Wp. I also think 'subtle', smarmy closet racism is a lot more widespread than you make out. 'I'm not being racist, but...' OFFS. Yes you are you carphound, one wants to scream. But it would be a waste of breath. You can't save an idiot from being an idiot or make a nasty person nice just by arguing with them. Nevertheless I don't think we're a racist nation. We aren't all nasty idiots by any means. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 5 Jan 14 at 21:11
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 20:06
Driving Test Pass rates - Westpig
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>> No, you think he should be able to raise issues like this and anybody who >> thinks that might be a racist point of view should not have the right to >> speak or challenge it. Essentially if I think something is racist, and I might be >> right or I might be wrong, I do not have the right to debate it. You do..and are...my point is 'racism' can be an easily flung term to close down debate..and it is often used as such. >> >> >> That to one side..... >> >> If someone is racist, and they voice racist views, *WHY* are they so offended by >> being called racist? >> >> If someone is not racist and is not voicing racist views, *WHY* are they so >> scared of the accusation? How about: - you hold views that you do not believe are racist...but someone else does think you are racist?......that would be somewhat irritating........or - You hold views that are not racist and someone else doesn't really think they are either, but bungs racism into the kitty, because they don't agree with your viewpoint and want to win the arguement. >> >> Mostly, I believe, because if it walks like a duck...... If you think I'm racist..say so..you are not usually shy. Personally I think it is madness to label someone racist, purely for either pointing out fact..or discussing whether or not something is fact...on a subject matter pertinent to people's that are different. Should that area of thought or conversation be a closed down subject? I know some of you think it should be..I however, do not....and that does not mean I look down on people that are different, I just believe you should be able to 'say it as it is' positive and negative, warts and all.....you know, the walking like a duck thing. Last edited by: Westpig on Sun 5 Jan 14 at 20:07
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 20:20
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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To clear one thing up straight away; >> If you think I'm racist..say so..you are not usually shy. I do not think you are racist. I do think you are naive about those who are and I think some of the things you say are questionable. But as I said earlier on another subject, you don't have to be dumb to do dumb stuff. >> - you hold views that you do not believe are racist...but someone else does think >> you are racist?......that would be somewhat irritating........or It would be irritating. Very. And I would explain again why I do not consider myself to be. Probably pretty bluntly. But I would *NOT* stop saying what I thought to be correct. If I am racist, then why would someone telling me I am stop me saying anything? If I am not racist, on what level would I allow an untrue accusation to stop me saying something I thought was right? >>>> Mostly, I believe, because if it walks like a duck...... I can only think of two reasons why someone would object to being called racist; 1) They *are* racist but are ashamed about it so run away when accused. 2) They are *not* racist and so would fight the accusation hard. >> Personally I think it is madness to label someone racist, purely for either pointing out >> fact..or discussing whether or not something is fact...on a subject matter pertinent to >>people's that are different. I agree. Not only would I not do that, I am most unlikely to call anybody racist in anything other than the most extreme situation. Although I may well label something they said as a racist point of view. >> Should that area of thought or conversation be a closed down subject? I know some >> of you think it should be..I however, do not No, I do not. However, if someone says something I consider to be racist, then I will call them on that. And I would hope for better a better response from that person than "oh, people always say I'm being racist just to make me be quiet...whine...whine" And if someone wonders why people *keep* calling them racist, or keep saying that something they said was racist, then refer to me comment "if it walks like a duck...." |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 20:37
Driving Test Pass rates - Westpig
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>> To clear one thing up straight away; >> >> >> If you think I'm racist..say so..you are not usually shy. >> >> I do not think you are racist. I am actually quite glad you and AC have confirmed your thoughts in that respect. >> I do think you are naive about those >> who are That area hasn't really been covered. I have no doubt there are those out there who hide or try to hide behind a veneer or respectability, but are really quite awful...thankfully though, they are few in number...just like crooks in other aspects of criminality. >> and I think some of the things you say are questionable. matter of opinion >> >> - you hold views that you do not believe are racist...but someone else does >> think >> >> you are racist?......that would be somewhat irritating........or >> >> It would be irritating. Very. And I would explain again why I do not consider >> myself to be. Probably pretty bluntly. But I would *NOT* stop saying what I thought >> to be correct. Pretty much covers my angle nicely. >> And I would hope for better a better response >> from that person than "oh, people always say I'm being racist just to make me >> be quiet...whine...whine" Do you not think it's irritating that if you think something and some others around you seem to think similarly, but you know if it's mentioned, someone will raise the 'r' element? Do you not think it's a raise your eyes to the ceiling moment and a thought of 'not again'. >> And if someone wonders why people *keep* calling them racist, or keep saying that something >> they said was racist, then refer to me comment "if it walks like a duck...." ...or...the whole thing is about to do a full circle and sanity will regain itself and there will be more freedom of speech and there will be more free actions when it comes to sensitivities about race..e.g. if some members of some communities wish to groom underage girls in the future, the authorities will step in, rather than not dare say/do anything. I sincerely hope so anyway. >> |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 21:59
Driving Test Pass rates - No FM2R
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One of the biggest issues is that growing band of the "professionally offended on someone else's behalf" and the "Desperate to be seen to be politically correct". But honestly, and I've said it before, I think its usually fairly easy to tell the difference between someone who holds racist views and someone who does not hold racist views talking about racial matters. |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 08:13
Driving Test Pass rates - Zero
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> >> A Mr Ibrahim who along with many multicultural sounding colleagues committed a number of driving >> test frauds www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23419083 who >> >> Et all, Et all, et all Andrew Cursley is multicultural sounding? |
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New Sun 5 Jan 14 13:39
Driving Test Pass rates - Armel Coussine
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>>> Et all, Et all, et all I suppose I should admit that that grated on my usually dormant pedantic side. 'Et al.' (with the full stop) is abbreviation of Latin 'et alii', 'and others', 'and the rest'. Oh dear. Deep in the social poo as usual... and I was always too idle to be anything but crap at Latin. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 5 Jan 14 at 13:40
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