Excellent day out at the NRM yesterday. Mallard and the other 5 remaining streamlined A4 Pacific class locomotives are together on display and the rest of the Museum is excellent too!
tinyurl.com/m2ekpa7
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Myself & a few friends decided last night to visit the NRM next Thursday. Train from Settle, brunch in Leeds, NRM then 4 or 5 of our favourite pubs. I've not been to the NRM for years, although we enjoy 6 monthly social trips to York. I do like York, especially with a covering of snow and twinkling Xmas lights.
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I spent a very pleasant hour yesterday in the York Tap, entrance from the station. 20 beers available and some sandwiches and pork pies but no pub grub as such.
www.yorkmix.com/food-drink/the-york-pub-that-taps-in-to-our-brewing-heritage/
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Bittern. one of the 6, will be doing its long postponed 90 MPH anniversary runs on the East coast Main line next month.
Thursday 5th December, York/Newcastle/York
Sat 7th December, York/Kings X
90mph where line speed permits.
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Zero, you know about these things and Google isn't helping me. Do you know of a good viewing point in Cambridgeshire I could take Mrs C to on the Saturday? She'd love to see Bittern whizz by I'm sure.
My level of knowledge about these things is such I just had to find a map of the East Coast main line to see if it actually goes anywhere near me, which it seems to.
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So the Sat 7th Dec run includes Peterborough to Kings X?
Good quiet uncluttered viewing point is the very very quiet single track road to the east of Connington airfield... goo.gl/maps/cFWDi
If you want an overhead view/video the smaller of the two bridges on the Woodwalton side of Abbots Ripton is an ideal place... goo.gl/maps/Dv0do
If you fancy a sweeping but slightly more distant view park up on the no through road out of Woodwalton ( goo.gl/maps/jzyti ) and walk up to the disused church. You can get some quite arty shots of the church with trains in the distance from here.... unless the trackside undergrowth has been allowed to grow tall.
Of course rail spotters may have better places.
Hopefully Zero will give some more details/timings... not going to be after dark on this return trip? That would challenge the video.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 6 Nov 13 at 11:03
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Ah, that's excellent FL. Many thanks indeed. We know Woodwalton quite well as we go butterfly hunting at the nature reserve there each year.
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Firstly, nowhere with a view is going to be clear of Gricers. If you have thoughts of being on your own to capture the lingering long video at any of those good viewing spots - forget it. Do go tho, its a hell of sight (captured Bittern on video at 90mph on its high speed test run earlier this year)
Departure from York on the 9th London run is 14:15, expect it through conington around 17:00 BUT, it has to water somewhere, runs north stop and water in Connington loop. I'll have more details of exact timings by location, fast or slow line, water spots and likely 90mph running stretches nearer the time.
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>
>> If you fancy a sweeping but slightly more distant view park up on the no
>> through road out of Woodwalton ( goo.gl/maps/jzyti ) and walk up to the disused church.
>> You can get some quite arty shots of the church with trains in the distance
This was my arty attempt at Woodwalton
www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6sGoBXAWiw
Filmed spring 2012.
>> Hopefully Zero will give some more details/timings... not going to be after dark on this
>> return trip? That would challenge the video.
Zero is going for a shot in the dark, Up the grade into Knebworth. Lets see if the footplate crew can keep the 90mph up hill. Pride and history will ensure they have a damn good crack.
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A nice lingering shot of the field where we kept our horses when we lived there Zero!
I've just been to re-MOT the C3 and called at Woodwalton church on the way back. All scaffolding round the tower now but they assure me it will be down for Dec. Sadly the trackside undergrowth will interfere with photos/videos. On a blue sky sunny day though that could make a good video location as from the rail side of the graveyard you can get a near 180deg pan round, if it was a grey day like today everything would merge into the mist.
Also called at the Wennington Rd bridge near Abbots Ripton. That gives an excellent long head on shot of about 2 clear miles north. At 5'9" I can just see over the parapet and easilt rest the camera on it for stability... but an 18" footstool would help. Looking back south the stool is essential as the parapet is higher.
>>>nowhere with a view is going to be clear of Gricers
They won't camp out overnight to grab a spot will they???
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 6 Nov 13 at 14:29
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Just been out to review the last of the 3 places I mentioned... www.car4play.com/redirect.php?http://goo.gl/maps/cFWDi At the back of Connington airfield into the fen down very poor single track roads.
This is indeed very uncluttered with quite long sight lines to the north. A very immediate feel as the trains make the fen bounce as they pass very close to you. Not much parking if the grass is soggy like today.
Terrible light even at 3.30pm... guess it will be half dark by 5pm when the Bittern comes through. Did have a go at some practice video angles though on the elec trains... and some quite good results on 12 shot burst (using a new to me bridge camera).
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>> >>>nowhere with a view is going to be clear of Gricers
>>
>> They won't camp out overnight to grab a spot will they???
Its not unknown, but an hour before its due it will be heaving. And then the jostling starts.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 6 Nov 13 at 22:36
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Bitterns 90MPH run south
Timings
York [YRK] 10 1419
Colton Jn pass 1425
Hambleton North Jn pass 1431
Temple Hirst Jn. pass 1435
Shaftholme Jn pass 1442
Doncaster [DON] UF pass 1446
Loversall Carr Jn pass 1450
Retford [RET] 1503 1534
Newark F.C. [XNK] pass 1550
Newark North Gate [NNG] 2 pass 1550
Claypole Loop pass 1554
Grantham [GRA] 1 pass 1602
Stoke Jn. pass 1607 FL
Tallington Jn. pass 1618
Peterborough [PBO] UF pass 1625
Connington South Jn pass 1634 SL
Connington Loop 1636 1711 FL
Huntingdon [HUN] pass 1721 FL FL
Sandy [SDY] pass 1731 FL
Hitchin [HIT] 1 pass 1741 SL
Stevenage [SVG] 1 pass 1748
Woolmer Green Jn. [XGN] pass 1753 FL
Digswell Jn. pass 1757 SL
Welwyn Garden City [WGC] 2 pass 1801 2
Potters Bar [PBR] 1 1816 1820
Alexandra Palace [AAP] 2 pass 1832 SL
Finsbury Park [FPK] 3 pass 1838
Holloway Sth. Jn. pass 1841 FL 1
Belle Isle [XKB] pass 1844 FL2
London Kings Cross [KGX] 4 1848
Its going to be cranking it up from the water stop at Retford, 90mph through Newark Northgate for sure, that time from Newark to Stoke Junction indicates they expect to be lashing it at top speed. Don't worry about the light, choose a station or crossing with some good lighting it will be atmospheric.
BONUS
there is another A4 in the area on the main line that day, not 90MPH approved, this one is 60009 Union of South Africa in BR green - Kings Cross-Spalding-Lincoln-Newark-Kings Cross - Timings to come.
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Thanks Z. Noted and, as our HR lady said to me the other day "diarized". Oh dear.
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Welwyn Garden City [WGC] 2 pass 1801 2
Potters Bar [PBR] 1 1816 1820
Alexandra Palace [AAP] 2 pass 1832 SL
Maybe I am being thick, but cannot dedeuce (or decode) the additional information. I know it is fast, but surely Heisenberg is not an issue :)
eg
2 times for one location, (but only a short gap)
SL
2 pass?
Last edited by: sherlock1947 on Thu 28 Nov 13 at 09:47
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Are they moving on the Sunday too?
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Moving what where?
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 28 Nov 13 at 10:15
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If it arrives at King's Cross on Saturday evening, what happens then?
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Ah right, I see what you mean.
At 19:18 they slap a diesel on the back, and haul the whole train backwards out of Kings X.
London Kings Cross [KGX] 1 1918 FL1
Belle Isle [XKB] pass 1920 FL
Holloway Sth. Jn. pass 1923 GL
Finsbury Park [FPK] pass 1926 SL2
Ferme Park Recp. [XFD] 1937 2004
Harringay Park Jn pass 2008
Upper Holloway [UHL] 1 pass 2010
Junction Road Jn [XJR] pass 2011 3
Gospel Oak [GPO] 4 pass 2016 5
Kensal Green Jn [XKG] pass 2028
Harlesden Jn pass 2030 HLG
Willesden Railnet Receptn pass 2033
Wembley Yard South Jn. pass 2036
Wembley Eur Frt Ops Cntre 2042
the Coaches and diesel are then dumped and then Bittern and its support coach are off to its home base at Southall
Wembley H.S. 2135
Wembley Yard South Jn. pass 2138 UR
Willesden No7 [XXW] pass 2141
Acton Canal Wharf pass 2143
Acton Wells Jn pass 2145
Acton Main Line [AML] GL 2148 2152 GL 1½
Acton West pass 2157 RL GL
Southall East Jn pass 2207 GL
Southall [STL] 2208 2228 GL
Southall Loco Services Ltd 2233
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>> Poor thing. How undignified. What's wrong with this:
>>
>> i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/09/26/article-2432940-184A8D9C00000578-223_634x422.jpg
>>
Plans are afoot at the moment to build a Gresley P2 just like the Cock o the North. I think it's the group that built Tornado.
Big article in last month's Railway Mag.
Ted
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>> Plans are afoot at the moment to build a Gresley P2
Was intrigued in Swindon last week to see they said the last steam loco built there, in inflation adjusted terms, cost about £100k in today's money.
Tornado was what, £3m? Is that because they had all the infrastructure back then so making a bit of steel and a few pipes was sixpence, whilst today it has to be handmade in Chine and shipped in via the moon, or what?
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>>Is that because they had all the infrastructure back then so making a bit of steel and a few pipes was sixpence
Partly. Partly also because they've used the wrong inflation rate. Inflation isn't uniform across all assets.
In 1950 few people could afford motor cars. Today anybody can.
In 1950 anybody* could afford the few hundreds that a house cost. Today nobody can.
etc. etc.
*obviously I'm not serious here, but you get the point.
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>>>In 1950 anybody* could afford the few hundreds that a house cost. Today nobody can.
It is my opinion folks with just a spare bit of cash in the 1950s could buy a house very easily... several in fact. The landlord of out first city flat in a terraced Victorian street had done just that in the late 50s and early 60s ending up with a large rental portfolio with no borrowing.
Even in the late 70s our first house only cost 6x the vale of the used cars we were running then.
Perhaps someone with the figures to hand will say I'm wrong but that was how it seemed.
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>> >>>In 1950 anybody* could afford the few hundreds that a house cost. Today nobody can.
Clearly they can, or no houses would ever be bought or sold again.
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>> >> >>>In 1950 anybody* could afford the few hundreds that a house cost. Today nobody
>> can.
>>
>> Clearly they can, or no houses would ever be bought or sold again.
>>
*obviously I'm not serious here, but you get the point.
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You were not being serious about the anybody, I was talking about the nobody.
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In* 1950* anybody* could* afford* the* few* hundreds* that* a* house* cost*. Today* nobody* can*.
Looks a bit like a Christmas tree with all those...
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>> >> Plans are afoot at the moment to build a Gresley P2
>>
>> Was intrigued in Swindon last week to see they said the last steam loco built
>> there, in inflation adjusted terms, cost about £100k in today's money.
>>
>> Tornado was what, £3m? Is that because they had all the infrastructure back then so
>> making a bit of steel and a few pipes was sixpence, whilst today it has
>> to be handmade in Chine and shipped in via the moon, or what?
Economy of scale. At Stratford works for example 6,500 workers turned out a steam engine (ok small shunting engine) in just over 9 hours for £7.5k on the rails in todays money.
Tornado was a one off, and although based on Arthur Peppercorns originally drawings and plans, was changed to incorporate performance improvements in steam engine design, and to meet modern requirements with respect to weight, safety and operation.
One of the things they did was to increase the water capacity, lack of water refuelling being one of the major headaches for running steam on the main line.
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www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-128554.html
www.misuk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/House-Prices-in-the-1950s-to-2011.pdf
A couple of interesting reads.
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>>Interesting reads
Really?
"We all know that property has risen in value over the years but by just how much is
enlightening, and adds further credence to the fact that, despite peaks and troughs in property
values, houses are still a fairly safe bet for sustained capital growth."
Non-inflation-adjusted numbers aren't enlightening. And the current position gives no indication for future sustained capital growth.
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>>Really?
I thought so. I didn't say accurate, informative or life-changing. Just interesting.
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>> there, in inflation adjusted terms, cost about £100k in today's money.
A Coronation class pacific, built at Crewe by the LMS in the late 30s cost about £5K to produce. Probably similar to an A4 for the LNER.
Price of a decent second hand car today.....but a lot more steel !
Ted
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>> Poor thing. How undignified. What's wrong with this:
>>
>> i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/09/26/article-2432940-184A8D9C00000578-223_634x422.jpg
Bcause the turntable at Kings X is now here.
www.flickr.com/photos/julesfoto/10027153696/
The rest was cut up to make tornado.
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Not living up to your name are you ;0
Welwyn Garden City Platform 2 Pass (no stop) 18:01
Potters Bar Platform 1 stop 18:16 depart 18:20
Alexandra Palace Platform 2 pass (not stop) 18:32 Slow line.
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Thanks for the Bittern route Zero.
Atmosphere perhaps in the half dark but not ideal for video... if only I had Dog's 2.8 lens!
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Have you seen some of my night shots?
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What, you mean you're allowed to train spot in the dark? Would've thought you'd have to be home for tea and then get your homework done?
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>>>Have you seen some of my night shots?
No I haven't... chuck a link up if you will please.
I'll be using a Lumix bridge camera with a 2.8-5.2 lens... is your video camera similar on aperture?
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>> >>>Have you seen some of my night shots?
>>
>> No I haven't... chuck a link up if you will please.
>>
>> I'll be using a Lumix bridge camera with a 2.8-5.2 lens... is your video camera
>> similar on aperture?
F1.8 - 3.9 vid camera.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX10ayDggBs
Choose a well lit station, and go onto manual mode, fixed focus and exposure (unlike me here - I have since learned to use the manual features on the camera) because the bright pinprick of the train headlight stews up the autofocus. High Iso speed is fine, graininess gives it texture.
This is a poorly lit station with fixed focus and exposure
www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4BsFsJ2Eec
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And here is the provisional booked timings for the other A4, 60009 Union of South Africa on the same day, Sat 7th Dec.
WTT Route Allowances
Location Pl Arr Dep Line Path Eng Pth Prf
London Kings Cross [KGX] 2 0908 FL1
Belle Isle [XKB] pass 0911 FL 1
Finsbury Park [FPK] 5 pass 0914
Alexandra Palace [AAP] 3 pass 0917 SL
Potters Bar [PBR] 3 0930 0934
Welwyn Garden City [WGC] 3 pass 0946
Digswell Jn. pass 0948 FL
Woolmer Green Jn. [XGN] pass 0951
Stevenage [SVG] 3 0956 0958
Hitchin [HIT] pass 1003 SL
Sandy [SDY] 2 pass 1015 SL
Huntingdon [HUN] 3 pass 1032 SL SL
Holme Jn. [XHO] 1050 1111 FL 1
Peterborough [PBO] 4 1122 1125
Werrington Jn pass 1130
Spalding [SPA] pass 1151 4
Sleaford South Jn pass 1213
Sleaford [SLR] 2 pass 1216
Sleaford North Jn pass 1222 1
Pelham Street Jn. pass 1245
Lincoln Central [LCN] 4 1247
Water stop probably at Holme Junction (thats the london side of Holme Level Crossing)
Return
Lincoln Central [LCN] 4 1745
West Holmes Jn pass 1748
Boultham Jn pass 1751 1
Newark Crossing East Jn pass 1812
Newark North Gate [NNG] 3 1815 1824
Claypole Loop pass 1831
Grantham [GRA] 1 pass 1841
Stoke Jn. pass 1847 SL
Tallington Jn. pass 1857
Peterborough [PBO] 2 1907 1910 FL
Connington South Jn pass 1920 SL
Connington Loop 1922 2001 FL
Huntingdon [HUN] 2 pass 2010 SL FL
Sandy [SDY] 1 pass 2030 SL
Hitchin [HIT] 1 pass 2042 SL
Stevenage [SVG] 1 2051 2054
Woolmer Green Jn. [XGN] pass 2058 FL
Digswell Jn. pass 2101 SL
Welwyn Garden City [WGC] 2 pass 2104
Potters Bar [PBR] 1 2117 2120
Alexandra Palace [AAP] 2 pass 2132 SL 3
Finsbury Park [FPK] 3 pass 2140 2 1
Holloway Sth. Jn. pass 2145 FL
Belle Isle [XKB] pass 2147 FL2
London Kings Cross [KGX] 1 2150
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Can you see the water stop from the road at Holme?
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>> Can you see the water stop from the road at Holme?
Not the main road across Holme level crossing no, connigton loop is its too far south from there, BUT if you go to the next crossing south you will see the road that runs along side the railway from there to Holme, and just where it bends away from the railway is *usually* where the water tanker parks on the Network Rail access road.
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>> And here is the provisional booked timings for the other A4, 60009 Union of South
>> Africa on the same day, Sat 7th Dec.
Can that, 60009 is broken, One of the Britannias will stand in. Just leaves one A4, Bittern doing its 90mph run.
Bittern was also due to do a 90mph run, Newcastle to York, today. Thats probably been overruled because Network Rail is putting in a blanket 75mph speed limit this afternoon up north due to adverse weather.
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Thanks. Just seemed a bit odd stopping at PB not WGC!
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Thanks Zero, know that bit of road well. Might cycle up to the watering place as there is very little parking if a few about and take a chance it stops there then pedal like mad before it leaves to the Connington farm crossing to do a video.
Going to do a test video there at the same time of night on a normal train and see how it looks.
BTW thanks for the link to your footage. I'll look into my manual settings on video as I think focus hunting would be a real issue for me in poor light.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 29 Nov 13 at 11:57
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Any updates on timings Zero? Busy pre-Christmas shopping day but hope to get up to one of the bridges.
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And of course had we not missed it by 3mins the experience might have been better!
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Been out all day getting fen mud on the car
Lesson no 1. ....... Get there early
I'll show you the vid when I get home and edited it
It ended up stuffed behind a late running train south of connington and is now 40 mins late
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And for those of you who missed it
South Muskham, just north of Newark on Trent. I made back down the A1 in time to film it again in the dark at Welwyn North, but by then it was 40 minutes late (NR planning issue) so I packed up and went home
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHYQlXgYlSk
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Nice video, but why is there a cat singing "If it takes forever" at the start?
(*_*)
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Do you know why it didn't stop for water at the Connington loop? We arrived there at about the time it was due to arrive and linger for almost 30mins only to be told it had just whooshed past.
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>> Do you know why it didn't stop for water at the Connington loop? We arrived
>> there at about the time it was due to arrive and linger for almost 30mins
>> only to be told it had just whooshed past.
According the actual schedule it was through peterborough at 17:25, then sat in Connington loop from 16:35 to 17:11
The loop is quite long but I don't think it was doing much whooshing at that point.
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>> And for those of you who missed it
>>
>> South Muskham, just north of Newark on Trent. I made back down the A1 in
>> time to film it again in the dark at Welwyn North, but by then it
>> was 40 minutes late (NR planning issue) so I packed up and went home
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHYQlXgYlSk
You are slowly, very, very, slowly getting the hang of this aren't you?
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One of its headlight bulbs is out. Needs to get that sorted asap.
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Thats its "90 mph high intensity lamp" as mandated by Network Rail for a high speed (over 75) loco.
In truth, its been stolen off Tornado.
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So what are the north/south limits of the Connington loop when related to Google maps, does it go as far south as the (near to) Higney Grange ballast yard??
Might help me not miss the next one if I know that.
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>> So what are the north/south limits of the Connington loop when related to Google maps,
>> does it go as far south as the (near to) Higney Grange ballast yard??
>>
>> Might help me not miss the next one if I know that.
According to my Track Atlas going south from Holme Crossing
14 chains - Connington North Junction
2 miles 16 chains Connington South Junction.
The ballast yard northern junction is 10 chains south of there and that loop goes another mile and and half south to Woodwalton Junction.
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Ahhh understood thanks. So when a train like a steam special is shown stopping (for water) at Connington loop could it be almost anywhere from Holme crossing down to Woodwalton?
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>> Ahhh understood thanks. So when a train like a steam special is shown stopping (for
>> water) at Connington loop could it be almost anywhere from Holme crossing down to Woodwalton?
The loco stop position is surely determined by point(s) at which bowser can get to the track.
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>> >> Ahhh understood thanks. So when a train like a steam special is shown stopping
>> (for
>> >> water) at Connington loop could it be almost anywhere from Holme crossing down to
>> Woodwalton?
>>
>> The loco stop position is surely determined by point(s) at which bowser can get to
>> the track.
our posts crossed. Yes thats the case. The support coach does have a set of hydrant keys, standpipe, couplings and pipes. But as no-one rarely knows where there is a suitable hydrant, they don't often get used.
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Almost, except it has to be within hose reach of an 8000 gallon big red water tanker with "FIRE" printed down the side.
So, there has to be an access road, (public or Network Rail) the hose can't cross live tracks and the hose is not that long.
So Northbound, (UP) its always at that spot I pointed out just south of Holme crossing.
South (DOWN) I don't know the precise location, but would need to do some clever guess work using google maps and an explore of the area.
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>>>So Northbound, (UP) its always at that spot I pointed out just south of Holme crossing.
>>>South (DOWN) I don't know the precise location, but would need to do some clever guess >>>work using google maps and an explore of the area.
Ahhh that explains why we missed it. Not being a train buff I'd not thought of different up/down locations and not being able to pop a hose across the lines!
So at the estimated arrivel time we drove to the "up" location and of course it wasn't there and others about said it had gone. We assumed that meant it wasn't stopping for water and went home for beer and Chinese.
My guess for the down line location would be close to Higney Grange where the old ballast yard was... does it still operate?
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sun 8 Dec 13 at 16:18
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>> My guess for the down line location would be close to Higney Grange where the
>> old ballast yard was... does it still operate?
No. But.
Its sometimes cleared and relied as an engineering works yard when major is work is planned on the ECML. There is a Network Rail access gate off the road from church end
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National Railway Museum - The Great Gathering - legacylad
