| Non-motoring > Civil duty: tactical voting | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Armel Coussine | Replies: 41 |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 17:13
Civil duty: tactical voting - Armel Coussine
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I can still hardly believe that I voted Conservative for the first time in my life last night. All right, it was just a local council thing, but from little acorns mighty oaks do grow. It was quiet in the polling station and the volunteers looked genuinely pleased to see us as we were the only voters at that time. There were four candidates: Con, LibDem, KIPPER and Green. This is West Sussex so Labour hadn't bothered. Con always wins round here. And the Con candidate had a charmingly funny name. Even so it felt very strange putting my mark against him. But I'm glad I did because he got about 1,000 votes, LibDem 500 or so and Green 120 or so (Herself voted Green, bless her). But the Johnny-come-lately Vuvuzelakip candidate - a lady - got 700! Thank God a few of us are sane enough to hold the line. I'm only half joking. (I read by the way that a German version of UKIP is making its appearance. But were I a Teuton I would have voted for Mutti). |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 18:48
Civil duty: tactical voting - -
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Amazing, otherwise intelligent people still vote for the least worse version (not a scrap of difference between them) of the three cheeks, yah boo. One's duty is to use ones loaf, realise the three cheeks have so far and will continue to lead us into the toilet, and vote with principle. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:15
Civil duty: tactical voting - Armel Coussine
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>> One's duty is to use ones loaf... and vote with principle. I'm stupid and unprincipled eh? Just as well we are friends gb or I might burst into tears or get shirty. I teased a French friend, from a Communist family and a Socialist voter, for having to vote for Sarko in a presidential election a few years ago to prevent the Front National from winning. Now it's her turn to tease me. I wish you wouldn't use that repulsive schoolboy three cheeks image. It's disgusting and misleading. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:52
Civil duty: tactical voting - Dog
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>>I wish you wouldn't use that repulsive schoolboy three cheeks image. It's disgusting and misleading. I beg to differ, the saying "two cheeks of the same backside" originated from the the esteemed George Galloway when referring to the Lab-Con trick. Now that Clogg has wormed his way onto the gravy train, the backside has got bigger and so now has three cheeks. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 20:07
Civil duty: tactical voting - Armel Coussine
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It's awful Perro, vulgar and misleading. The parties aren't all the same. And it isn't 'a' trick, it's a huge enormous old box of tricks that has grown steadily bigger ever since the primal horde. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 20:47
Civil duty: tactical voting - Dog
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>>me. And it isn't 'a' trick, it's a huge enormous old box of tricks that has grown steadily bigger ever since the primal horde. Well it seems like a trick to many people Sire, including me, I've seen Labour and Conservative governments in number 10 over my lifetime, both promise one thing at the general election, and then go back on their promises once they gain power. Blair, Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, not much difference really, I never voted for Blair once, I made the mistake of voting for Cameron at the last election, mainly to get the lefties out of office, but I'm with UKIP from now on. I never gave you a frownie btw :) Last edited by: Dog on Fri 27 Sep 13 at 20:48
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 21:15
Civil duty: tactical voting - -
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>> I never gave you a frownie btw :) >> Nor me, can't think why AC's post deserved one either but there yergo. Thing is i like the non professional basis of UKIP, look at the complete hash professional politicians of all three hues have reaped on this country, indeed its only yah boo that stopped another involvement in yet another futile war (so Cameron and his little baseball hatted sidekick could have their very own, bless), and all three factions were as keen as mustard for involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan...when it suited them. Farage IMO scored an own goal by doing the medias bidding over Godfrey Bloom, he knee jerk reacted and i sincerely hope he's kicking himself for not treating the whole furore with the contempt it deserved. Some reporters ask for a good thwack on the head with a tightly rolled up wad of papers, might even knock some sense into a few. UKIP is comprised of people not indoctrinated into the political common purpose career path, which i'm extremely grateful for, if they were career politicians they'd just be the fourth cheek. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 22:03
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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>>Farage IMO scored an own goal by doing the medias bidding over Godfrey Bloom, he knee jerk reacted and i sincerely hope he's kicking himself for not treating the whole furore with the contempt it deserved.<< It hasnt been reported quite as it happened. Bloom had been wavering on the direction UKIP had been taking for a while, he essentially wanted it to remain an old boys club, but Farage realised a while ago that it wouldnt get UKIP policies on the books and that is really rather the point of a political party. Crowther suspended him, not Nigel and then Bloom quit, it had been coming for a while - also, he was suspended for attacking the journo ( not the original joke he made ) which is a daft reaction for a supposedly mature politician and he had to be held up to the same scrutiny as any other member hence the suspension. Much as we all want to give someone a clout once in a while, it isnt how civilised people behave and UKIP wont do itself any favours by accepting it. It seems harsh to some but the leadership team wanted the conference to be about policy and Bloom did suck up all the media coverage so almost no policy got out which obviously peed off those who had been working on it for a long time ready to launch at conference. As I say, more complex than a loud mouth getting the sack. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 23:34
Civil duty: tactical voting - Armel Coussine
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>> I never gave you a frownie btw :) Didn't suspect you Perro, or anyone really. Can't say I'm that bothered. But did you miss the quote marks round the article 'a'? They meant that (IMO of course) politics is never one trick. It's a whole set of semi-arcane techniques and 'tricks' developed over millennia, one that has been proven over time to more or less work in articulating the relations between rulers and ruled. Constantly changing and adapting to changing economic and global-political circumstances, but fundamentally the same. The 'political discourse lite' I mentioned the other day is one of the myriad layers of that. Politics is complicated and one ought to acknowledge that with a complicated response. For example, I am not at all keen on UKIP or its general line, but I can't help wishing Stu's missus well in her campaign, bearing in mind that all I know of Stu or her is 'virtual'. Weird eh? George Galloway is no sort of example to us. He's another damn oversimplifier to score points. Frightful chap. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 27 Sep 13 at 23:37
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 00:17
Civil duty: tactical voting - Armel Coussine
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I've been brooding about this silly three cheeks business. What it trumpets to all and sundry is that some people think our quite old, quite successful democratic political system is a grotesque a r se consisting of more or less identical venal and corrupt parties, with a government of idiots. How can you refute the vulgar cynicism of Islamist twits like Choudary if you indulge in it yourselves? That's what bothers me. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 03:00
Civil duty: tactical voting - No FM2R
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Whilst I think such comments are silly, I think its more basic than that. Like "Main S tealer", "His poodle", and loads of similar comments, also silly nicknames for politicians and companies, I think its all to establish some kind of a supposed superiority. "Aren't I cool and smart, I use demeaning and usually juvenile nicknames". |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 07:39
Civil duty: tactical voting - Dog
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>>But did you miss the quote marks round the article 'a'? I'm tired Sire, tired of all the lies, tired of all the corruption, tired of all the wars and all the killing, tired of hearing about people with £billions while others have to choose between eat or heat. Just because we have done things more or less the same for countless millennia, doesn't mean that is the only way, it's their way of course - of keeping the people down. Ann agrees with you about GG though, he's a good speaker, she says, but a frightful bully. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 15:49
Civil duty: tactical voting - Armel Coussine
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>> I'm tired ... of all the lies, tired of all the corruption, tired of all the wars and all the killing, tired of hearing about people with £billions while others have to choose between eat or heat. Like all decent people Perro (although lies are sometimes better than the truth, corruption is sometimes the best way to achieve something good, wars are inevitable and some people need to be killed, and inequality is part of the human condition). We'd all like to see some improvement here and there, and sometimes we do see improvement, or think we do. But (forgive me) the kippers are if anything less capable of doing anything about it than the three buttocks as you rudely call them. There's no them and us, until some of us go into politics or big business and mutate into 'them'. They are us, we are them. That's about the size of it. It isn't simple at all. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 18:52
Civil duty: tactical voting - Dog
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>>Like all decent people Perro (although lies are sometimes better than the truth, corruption is sometimes the best way to achieve something good, wars are inevitable and some people need to be killed, and inequality is part of the human condition). Perhaps it would have been better if I'd stayed indecent then Sire, back when I knew less than nothing, almost. I managed to move on from council property in South London to a little cottage in Cornwall by not listening to good advice from others, but by listening to my heart, ploughing my own furrow and going my own way. By using that philosophy I intend to vote for UKIP at next years council elections, the European elections, and the general election the following year - because my heart, and mind, tells me to. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 19:10
Civil duty: tactical voting - Armel Coussine
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>> using that philosophy I intend to vote for UKIP at next years council elections, the European elections, and the general election the following year - because my heart, and mind, tells me to. You can't improve on that as a general approach. I wouldn't try to convert you and wouldn't expect to succeed if I did. Still, can't help mentioning a different view. Peace and love man to raaaas... |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:15
Civil duty: tactical voting - CGNorwich
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| Voting for the least worst party seems a fairly sensible pan to me. The only difference is that I include all the parties when making a choice. Blind faith in UKIP or indeed any other party is at best likely to lead to massive disillusionment when you realise that they do not have all the answers or perhaps not any of them. I see no evidence to suggest that given a sniff of power UKIP would not at best act much as any other political party. At worst my fear is that some of their members more extreme tendencies might come to the fore |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:40
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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>>I see no evidence to suggest that given a sniff of power UKIP would not at best act much as any other political party. At worst my fear is that some of their members more extreme tendencies might come to the fore << If you could hear them squealing at being sidelined for the newer, more balanced UKIP you wouldnt be so worried, New UKIP has had quite an effect on the troops. One of our councillors is waging war on council expenses - he is making quite a thing of exposing the cosy world of councillor expenses and perks, it is eye opening to say the least and if I am voted in I intend to follow his example - even the most cynical of Kippers were shocked at the lavish habits at tax payers expense. What you need to understand about Kippers is that this kind of thing drives us, it is disugusting and abusive, light needs to shine in the darkest corners. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 23:03
Civil duty: tactical voting - CGNorwich
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"If you could hear them squealing at being sidelined for the newer, more balanced UKIP you wouldn't be so worried, New UKIP has had quite an effect on the troops." So there's new UKIP is there? When did this come about? What happened to the old unbalanced members after they were dragged off squealing? |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 23:32
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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>>So there's new UKIP is there? When did this come about? What happened to the old unbalanced members after they were dragged off squealing?<< Yep, Nigel spoke about it on C4 News after Bloom was suspended and he basically said that Bloom was from a different era and this had been coming for a while. When Bloom announced he was quitting he said that 'New UKIP' was not for him so it is an accepted concept. I think Nigel was planning to quietly slide into the new way of doing things to keep the noisey ones quiet but he changed tack and used the Bloom incident to mark a break with the past, perhaps the only way he could turn the Bloom incident into a positive. It has been in the making for a few years, the 'old UKIP' members are still about but the huge rise in party numbers has turned them into a small minority ( we are about 30% bigger now ), some of them even resort to calling ME a leftwing luvvie, as if. The 'Uncle Alberts' are being left behind and a great number of 'ideas' people have come in, our Young Independance wing is producing some very interesting policy discussions. I would say there are maybe 100 potential troublemakers, but out of 31,000 that isnt bad and they are mostly well known. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 18:52
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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>>(I read by the way that a German version of UKIP is making its appearance. But were I a Teuton I would have voted for Mutti).<< It isnt, not even close, I am suprised at someone of your obvious intellect being so poorly informed. The only way AFD is like UKIP is their anti-establishment political position on their respective political spectrum, but German politics aint much like ours so it is a loose comparison at best. AFD are closer to Cameroon Tories than anything, they are pro-EU for heavens sake, hardly sounds like UKIP. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 18:57
Civil duty: tactical voting - R.P.
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| What a circus eh ? |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:06
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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Just wait until my misses is on the campaign trail - she has a prospective MEP candidate running her campaign and possibly the most enthusiastic ex-Tory on the planet as her main cheerleader, from the experience point of view it is huge fun. My turn wont come until 2015 at the earliest, that should be amusing! |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:16
Civil duty: tactical voting - Armel Coussine
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>> What a circus eh ? :o} |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:23
Civil duty: tactical voting - Runfer D'Hills
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When I become Lord High Dictator and undisputed Emporer, the populace will not be allowed to vote for "Parties". Instead the said "Parties" will each have to publish 10 major manifesto pledges in advance of elections, each of which must be clearly and understandably summarised in one sentence. All those pledges from all Parties standing for a parliamentary seat will be listed on a multiple choice questionaire with a simple "do you agree with this proposal or not?" answer option for each one. It would not, on the questionaire, be made apparent which Party had made which pledge so that the voter would actually have to vote for the manifesto pledges they agreed with and against those they didn't, without knowing from the form which candidate or party stood for which proposals. Unless of course they had previously taken the time to read and understand each manifesto (which I stongly suspect would not be a huge percentage of them). All questionaires would be randomly printed in terms of the order of the questions which would not be an issue as each one would include a bar code or similar to allow it to be re-read when counted in the correct order by a computer. This would help to prevent those who sought to falsely drive the vote towards their party by rehearsing the order of the answers in advance. There would of course be more spoiled ballot papers due to lack of understanding but at least the "good" ones would have been completed by people who took the time to consider their answers and were therefore by default more fully entitled to a contributory view. There, sorted. No more "I'm not voting for them because my grandad would turn in his grave" or "I hated Maggie" or "I'm not voting for those lefties" Just simply votes for policies. Up to the parties then to write manifestos people want. Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Fri 27 Sep 13 at 19:25
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:33
Civil duty: tactical voting - Dutchie
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There are so many things to sort out by the politicians when will they start.Housing shortage,energy bills run by a six companies cartel.Fuel prices far to high. The list is endless.Never mind the scientist are telling us global warning is upon us.Why worry. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:38
Civil duty: tactical voting - -
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Never mind the scientist are telling us global warning is upon us.Why worry. >> Thank goodness for that, last winters heating bill put our gas payments way up, be leaving it off all winter will we. Chucking me winter tyres in the skip tomorrow too. By the way are ALL scientists agreeing with this. :-)) |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:41
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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>>By the way are ALL scientists agreeing with this.<< All the ones with big salaries and grants are... |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:44
Civil duty: tactical voting - -
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>> All the ones with big salaries and grants are... >> Influenced opinion?, perish the thought..;) |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 20:08
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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>>Influenced opinion?, perish the thought..;) << You should be standing for us you know, I reckon you have the right attitude to do really well. If you dont join soon ill turn you into my project, I already have someone halfway over the line, I hate to see talent wasted. I am seeing the branch chairman tomorrow, I shall tell him about you, he doesnt live that far from you :-) |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 19:46
Civil duty: tactical voting - Armel Coussine
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You can't be serious Runfer. People are always voting for a candidate, not a party. Of course they may be voting for the candidate because he belongs to a party. But sometimes the candidate makes a personal difference. Parties are very imperfect but they are the way things are organised at present. We don't just have government for its policies and 'pledges' but for its capacity to run things on the hoof without getting bogged down and deal with the threatening outside world. That's why no sane person would seek high elected office. That stuff is for specialised nutters, far more talented than people seem to think. Who are necessary until we can devise something better. |
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New Fri 27 Sep 13 22:35
Civil duty: tactical voting - Lygonos
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Let it run for another few years and I'm pretty sure the history of UKIP will be a fairly good mirror-image for Orwell's Animal Farm. UKIP are not interested in any sense of consensus, and are thus simply yet another party of self-interest. They have nothing to offer the nation that's not already there. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 07:55
Civil duty: tactical voting - Roger.
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Lygonos - you seem to have almost a visceral hatred of UKIP. OK- that's your stance and you are entitled to your view that the party's ideas are not for you, but could you tell me which policy in particular drives your intense dislike? I really am interested to know. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 08:40
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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>>I really am interested to know << I doubt it is really on policy, I dont know if you do but I often find most of our most enthusiastic haters assume that the best source for policy information is the Daily Mirror etc. Note that not one newspaper has writeen a single line about Amjad Bashir despite his excellent speech. Funny that. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 09:16
Civil duty: tactical voting - R.P.
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| Im going to vote for Humph - as long as he promises to ban anyone over the 13 wearing Crocs. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 09:21
Civil duty: tactical voting - Runfer D'Hills
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Oh I have many plans, that one is, be assured, an absolute given though... :-) |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 09:30
Civil duty: tactical voting - CGNorwich
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I think that Lygonos has told you fairly succinctly what he thinks of UKIP, a view I myself share. For an of Analysis of what is wrong with Ukippery I cannot do better than quote Matthew Parris: "The spirit of Ukippery is paranoid. It distorts and simplifies the world, perceiving a range of different ills and difficulties as all proceeding from two sources: foreigners abroad, and in Britain a ‘metropolitan liberal elite’ (typically thought to be in league with foreigners). None of the problems it identifies (with immigration, with EU bureaucracy, with the cost of the EU, with the ambitions of some Europeanists, with political correctness, with health-and-safety, with human rights legislation etc) are anything less than real; but to the un-extremist mind they need to be tackled ad hoc, one by one, rather than seen as the hydra-headed expression of a single monster. Very well, you ask, if immigration/foreigners/Brussels are not the overwhelming cause of the problems of modern Britain, what is? I would reply that there is no overwhelming cause, but many: some insoluble. I’d number among these a general decadence arising from nearly 70 years of peace, security and rising incomes. The uncompetitiveness that renders us easy prey for the manufactories of, not Europe, but China and the developing world; the levels of welfare provision that rob indigenous Britons of hunger to work (not the poor immigrants who then take the work)… but this analysis lays many of our problems at the door of many of the voters attracted to Ukip, and is of less interest to the party. It is the single-cause, single-prism, single-root-explanation way of interpreting the world and its sorrows (a way of thinking and seeing that has its attraction to all human beings) that leads to (or is the fount of) extremism: it is one of the reasons religion, with its forces-of-evil focus, has so often led people that way. You could have asked me, in the heyday of McCarthyism, to tell you what was extremist about the senator’s campaign to root out communist influences. You could have asked me during the witch hunts of Salem to tell you what was extremist about identifying agents of evil among us. And in reply I could have looked for crazy utterances or promises. But were I being more thoughtful I would instead have recommended the analysis above." ' |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 09:48
Civil duty: tactical voting - madf
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When times are hard, people look for easy solutions on a plate. And here I am NOT comparing UKIP to the National Socialists but it is no coincidence that the rise of Hitler to power coincided with economic hardship coupled with two opposing movements - Communism and National Socialism - offering effectively simple solutions to a very complex problem. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 09:52
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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>>The spirit of Ukippery is paranoid. It distorts and simplifies the world, perceiving a range of different ills and difficulties as all proceeding from two sources: foreigners abroad, and in Britain a ‘metropolitan liberal elite’ (typically thought to be in league with foreigners). None of the problems it identifies (with immigration, with EU bureaucracy, with the cost of the EU, with the ambitions of some Europeanists, with political correctness, with health-and-safety, with human rights legislation etc) are anything less than real; but to the un-extremist mind they need to be tackled ad hoc, one by one, rather than seen as the hydra-headed expression of a single monster.<< Anyone who believes that is just wrong. That is the problem looking from the outside in, you cant see much through the frosted glass. Explain how campaigning for a railway station, or a petrol station, or improving resident connection with local politicians is 'paranoid' - you cant and you wont because it isnt. I dont blame people for seeing UKIP as you do, I read the same media as you and I had many doubts when I joined the party about what I would find, but having joined I actually met the real people behind it who simply dont match the description. I know where the impression comes from and I could point out a handful on the fringes of the party that would reinforce the view, but they simply have loud voices and make a good story - you often find they are 'party jumpers' too that have been on the scene for years in various incarnations and we are just their latest rest stop. As for taking extreme views, consider this - banks are evil, capitalism is evil, energy companies are evil - your next PM, extremism incorporated. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 10:12
Civil duty: tactical voting - CGNorwich
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Ah. Only member of the Party truly understand its aims do they? We on the outside are to be pitied for our failure to understand its aims. Well I've been reading the views of a number of them on this forum for the past few years and I think I have a pretty good idea where they are coming from. And as for: "consider this - banks are evil, capitalism is evil, energy companies are evil - your next PM, extremism incorporated." Just daft. |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 13:40
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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>>And as for: "consider this - banks are evil, capitalism is evil, energy companies are evil - your next PM, extremism incorporated." Just daft.<< Exactly. When you inflate the reality it becomes distorted. The only difference is it is your team so you say its daft, anyone else and you are quite happy to caricature - I get it, thats politics, but it is daft whichever party you support. I take each individual as they come and having spent the morning with a couple of MEP candidates and council candidates, one of them Muslim, there was no mention of race, no mention of the EU and the main topic was the inner workings of the local political parties and a host of local issues like the roads, weeds and litter. We met the local Labour candidate who was a nice enough chap, it was all very civilised - what you find is that everyone knows everyone else. Just for a laugh, the BNP has a Thai bride wife and he is terrified his party will find out. Funny world, truth is stranger than fiction it seems. Last edited by: FoR on Sat 28 Sep 13 at 13:41
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 14:20
Civil duty: tactical voting - CGNorwich
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I don't have a team and I don't think I have caricatured anybody. It's the simplistic view that most Ukippers have that everything that they believe to be wrong with the country somehow stems from membership of the EU ,immigration and our politicians that I find worrying. I think that if you were to question a few of your supporters as to why they vote UKIP I doubt whether they will answer that it your policy on roads , weeds and litter that they support. The world economics and politics are infinitely complicated, Cynical people like Farage preach a simplistic policy designed to appeal to people who would love or yearn for an easy solution. Withdraw from the EU - the economy will improve. Stop immigration - the youngsters will have jobs. Taxes too high - we will reduce them. Well it's not that simple. If it were someone would have done it, but of course the UKIP view is that all non Ukip politicians are the same are and simply in it for what they can get out of it - the "three cheeks view" of the world as espoused by your supporter. I'm afraid UKIP is a party for the naive led by the cynical |
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New Sat 28 Sep 13 14:48
Civil duty: tactical voting - Stuu
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>> It's the simplistic view that most Ukippers have << Most? How many do you actually know? Out of 31,000 members, what is your sample? >>they believe to be wrong with the country somehow stems from membership of the EU ,immigration and our politicians that I find worrying << If politicians are not responsible for the decisions taken about how this country is run, who is? What a daft thing to say, of course the people that make the decisions are responsible for them. You misunderstand slogans for personally held beliefs - Labour call the Tories 'nasty' because it sells, they dont actually believe it and often work together on committees together to good effect. Politics at the coalface IS simplistic. It may not suit the great thinkers of our time but engaging with most people who cant relate to politics isnt easy and if you come at them with a complex argument they loose the will to listen. We spoke to quite a few people today on the doorstep who simply felt alienated by the whole political scene, as if they as an individual simply dont matter - people have given up on, or given in to politics as it is and they have opted to simply ride the train wherever it may go. Farage isnt alone, all party leaders do it, offering simplistic solutions to complex problems, Milliband wants to solve living standards by a price freeze - simplistic and not certain to have the effect it sounds like it would - what it is though is a simple concept - energy bills are high so say you will stop them going up - had Farage said it you would have been here criticising it, but if Milliband says it, or Cameron, you suddenly loose interest. I get it, but dont kid yourself that you hold other party leaders to the same scrutiny, I have seen enough from you to know you dont. As for the three cheeks thing, it isnt my kind of langauge, but I know of a scandal that was suppressed jointly by the Labour and Tory councillors about a member who quietly left by the back door - kept quiet to save their own skins through association - they may not all be the same, but they are not as different as they want the public to think. |
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