| Non-motoring > The Great Divide | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Pat | Replies: 26 |
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 07:24
The Great Divide - Pat
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In my capacity as a Trustee of the charity I'm involved with I have been dealing with Gwynedd Council over the last two weeks. We had been approached by Shelter Cymru to see if we could prevent a lorry driver becoming homeless after he had to give up work two years ago to look after his wife who subsequently passed away. After stringent checks we all agreed he fitted our criteria and I attempted to contact the correct department at Gwynedd Council as a matter of urgency to prevent eviction. There is only a switchboard number available and everything is spoken in Welsh first and then repeated in English (I can live with that). I called seven times over 48 hours only to be told that a Rent Officer wasn't available and would call me back. It didn't happen until the third day. During this time, I emailed them with my concerns and asked for an urgent call back. I emailed them in English and this was my reply. >>Annwyl Pat Nicholson, Diolch am eich ymholiad. Mae eich ymholiad wedi cael ei yrru ymlaen i'r Gwasanaeth Galw Gwynedd ar gyfer gweithrediad pellach. Os ydych angen cysylltu â ni ynglyn â'r ymholiad, yna dynodwch y cyfeirnod canlynol: Ymh/**** Diolch << I have been able to translate it but surely I am justified in feeling peeved? I'm not sure why I feel peeved but I just do. Maybe it's because it's a bit like people who do thing intentionally and then claim they have been discriminated against. ...or because it proved so difficult to pay a tenants rent arrears and I noe realise how difficult it was for him, so recently bereaved to contact anyone to understand the grossly unfair bedroom tax. Maybe it's a throwback from my lorry driving days when everyone would talk to each other in Welsh in my presence when I was in that area. Whatever, but I'm annoyed! Pat |
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 07:39
The Great Divide - R.P.
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Pat do you need help from the local CAB ? message me if you do and I'll give you my contact number. Gwynedd's Social Housing has been contracted out to another organisation - Our Office is next door to them - we also work closely with Shelter in Gwynedd. These are the Landlords. www.ccgwynedd.org/ Last edited by: R.P. on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 07:41
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 07:45
The Great Divide - R.P.
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| Second thoughts - get his consent - e-mail me his details and I'll take it from there. |
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 08:18
The Great Divide - Pat
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I did email you last week RP, but assumed you must be on holiday;) as I didn't get a reply! It's all done and dusted now and when I finally got to the rent officer he was charming and gave me his direct phone number. We just need to get him moved to the top of the list for a one bed home now. Thanks anyway. Pat Last edited by: pda on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 08:18
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 08:34
The Great Divide - Roger.
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There is no one so bigoted, or with so big a chip on his/her shoulder, as a Welsh language activist! My wife is Welsh and proud to be Welsh too, as is quite proper. She does not speak Welsh; her mother had some Welsh and her maternal grandmother was bi-lingual. This loss of language was deliberate government policy many years ago, but these days is just as a result of practicality. We lived in West Wales - South Pembrokeshire (Little England beyond Wales and south of the Landsker Line) - for many years. There, the first language is English and hardly any native born folk speak Welsh. In fact it was not wholly unknown for the Welsh element of dual language road signs to be defaced rather than the English element! It was a matter of some interest for many motorists in the days of more easily identifiable regional number plates that one's car had "DE" as the county identifier, thus showing in some folk's eyes that one was a South Pembrokeshire native! North Pembrokeshire is more Welsh and the whole county is surrounded by two counties - Carmarthenshire and Cardiganshire which are quite aggressively Welsh. In fact, a phone call to Carmarthen hospital is, or was, answered in Welsh, making my wife grumble and saying that it made her feel like a stranger in her own country! Last edited by: Roger on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 08:35
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 08:24
The Great Divide - tyro
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"I'm not sure why I feel peeved but I just do." Well, I'd say that the reason you feel peeved is that you have just been treated with great discourtesy. |
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 09:03
The Great Divide - Old Navy
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I frequently worked in the Western Isles over a five year period, the locals I worked with, and most others, often spoke Gaelic amongst themselves but would switch to English when a non Gaelic speaker was with earshot. They were ferociously Scottish but the most pleasant and generous people you could wish to meet. Having said that I was in the Scottish Parliament building on Monday and every notice is in English and Gaelic, I did wonder at the time how many Gaelic speakers, or non English speaking Gaelic speakers used the building, (If there are any). Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 09:07
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 09:20
The Great Divide - tyro
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Old Navy, I live in a part of the Highlands were over half the population spoke Gaelic in 1960. Today there are only a handful of people who do. I'm pretty sure that, with the possible exception of small children whose parents want them to be Gaelic speakers, there are no non-English-speaking Gaelic speakers in Scotland. With regard to your experience in the Western Isles, I remember being told exactly the same thing. If a stranger went into a shop where the locals were chatting away to each other in Gaelic, they would always switch to English out of courtesy to the stranger. However, from my time in Wales, I remember it being said that if a group of locals in a Welsh speaking area were chatting away to each other in English and a stranger came into the shop, it was quite common for them to . . . Well, you can guess the rest. |
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 10:09
The Great Divide - Alanovich
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>> However, from my time in Wales, I remember it being said that if a group >> of locals in a Welsh speaking area were chatting away to each other in English >> and a stranger came into the shop, it was quite common for them to . >> . . >> >> Well, you can guess the rest. Yep. When my mother first had a property in Carmarthenshire in about 1985, this happened to me in local shops several times. Haven't experienced it in recent years, though. However, when we were first there the supermarkets and larger chain stores hadn't arrived in number, so all shopping was done in local shops for local people, as they say in Royston Vasey. These days, I'd mostly visit Tescos/Morrisons when I'm in the area. It would be bizarre indeed if the above anecdotal situation arose in such a store. There is also much more tourism and through traffic due to the improved road connections, so the locals get far more contact with the outside world these days. |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 13:25
The Great Divide - Bromptonaut
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>> Old Navy, I live in a part of the Highlands were over half the population >> spoke Gaelic in 1960. Today there are only a handful of people who do. I'm >> pretty sure that, with the possible exception of small children whose parents want them to >> be Gaelic speakers, there are no non-English-speaking Gaelic speakers in Scotland. There may well be those amongst the older generation who's English is limited though. I've heard the odd speaker on the Western Isles use English in a way that suggested their brain was working in Gaelic. |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 15:03
The Great Divide - tyro
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| Indeed. There are still people in (or from) the Western Isles (and even on or two on / from the mainland) for whom Gaelic is their first language. |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 15:25
The Great Divide - Bromptonaut
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Gaelic and Welsh were the language of hearth and home. Many of the older generation would arrive at school (tuition in English) aged 4/5 with very little English. Probably common until TV arrived in the late fifities/early sixties. A number of people who've written of life on Lewis or Harris including Finlay McLeod (Crowdie and Cream etc) mention this. Peter May's fictional Finn McLeod is of same background in late sixties, though possibly only as a device to introduce him to companion character Marsali. |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 13:19
The Great Divide - Bromptonaut
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>> I frequently worked in the Western Isles over a five year period, the locals I >> worked with, and most others, often spoke Gaelic amongst themselves but would switch to English >> when a non Gaelic speaker was with earshot. They were ferociously Scottish but the most >> pleasant and generous people you could wish to meet. Spent a good few weeks holidaying on Hebrides from Barra to Butt and noted same practice. Owner of one B&B chided her six/seven yo daughter for talking gaelic in front of vositrs. >> Having said that I was in the Scottish Parliament building on Monday and every notice >> is in English and Gaelic, I did wonder at the time how many Gaelic speakers, >> or non English speaking Gaelic speakers used the building, (If there are any). AFAIK Gaelic was never the language of Edinburgh (or Glasgow). Widely used in public buildings though including Turnhouse airport. |
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 09:28
The Great Divide - Gromit
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tyro: Well, I'd say that the reason you feel peeved is that you have just been treated with great discourtesy. Seconded! Its downright rude to address someone in a language you know they're unlikely to understand. And its easy to avoid - call a phone number in Brussels, for example, and you'll likely be answered with "Hallo, bonjour!". There's the opening to repsond in Flemish, French or English as you wish (or are able to) with no offence caused to anyone... |
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 10:03
The Great Divide - bathtub tom
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A colleague holidayed extensively in Wales and often experienced conversations suddenly switching to Welsh when he entered shops and pubs. He learnt Welsh and took great delight in using it as he left such premises. |
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 14:56
The Great Divide - devonite
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| Reminds me of the time a few of my friends and I, dashed out from the pub at closing time and into the "Chinese", who was apparently just about to close. instead of saying "velly sollee me closee" he took our orders, and then started having a conversation with the "Chef". Unfortunately for him, one of our group was fluent in Mandarin, and when the meals were ready,took great delight in telling him where he could stick his chopsticks!! and we all walked out leaving the food. Apparently he was being none too nice to us!. |
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 19:40
The Great Divide - Westpig
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>> I have been able to translate it but surely I am justified in feeling peeved? >> >> I'm not sure why I feel peeved but I just do. You are peeved because some backward uncaring tit has used a serious message to make a petty, ignorant and ridiculous 'statement' to someone who does not speak his/her language. It is exceptionally rude and unprofessional. No one outside of Wales gives two hoots what they speak. We might admire their attachment to their culture..but not when they are exceptionally rude to other people in the process, it does their 'cause' more harm and shows an inferiority complex. Last edited by: Westpig on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 19:40
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 19:47
The Great Divide - R.P.
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| The employees of GCC have to be seen to be believed. Trust me. |
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New Thu 19 Sep 13 21:59
The Great Divide - Zero
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>> I emailed them in English and this was my reply. >> >> >>Annwyl Pat Nicholson, >> >> Diolch am eich ymholiad. Astonishingly rude, and completely against their own guidelines for accessibility. |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 12:57
The Great Divide - madf
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| I'll vote for Welsh Independence... |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 13:33
The Great Divide - RattleandSmoke
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The problem in Wales is it is not just divided between England but also North/South Wales. I do like North Wales and most my experience of the Welsh has been very helpful but you do get the odd stuck up idiot who hates the English. This employee was out of order to reply back in Welsh. The language is spoken by a minirity even within Wales. Most people from South Wales I have spoken to have cannot speak the language. I guess there can only be around 500,000 Welsh speakers given the fact it is mostly spoken in North Wales and most the population of Wales is the English speaking south although I guess the younger people of South Wales now speak it as it is taught in schools. |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 13:37
The Great Divide - Alanovich
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>> Most people from South Wales I have spoken to >> have cannot speak the language. That'll be South East Wales. With the exception of Pembrokeshire and Swansea, it's widely spoken further west. Barely a word spoken in Cardiff/Valleys. |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 13:40
The Great Divide - RattleandSmoke
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It was the Valleys/Cardiff area I was meaning really. What surprises me how wildly Welsh is spoken on the Merseyside border. I have no problem at all with people speaking Welsh but they can't have it both ways. If they want the help of any English organisations such as the PDA then they do not have the right to have a bee in their bonnet about the language. |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 13:57
The Great Divide - DP
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I have family up in the North, and have always been made incredibly welcome, although much of that is because we are related to locals. I know that English "strangers" get a very hard time, and there's an undercurrent of nationalism in this region that is never far from the surface. In my experience, people there actually speak a mix of both English and Welsh, and very amusingly often in the same sentence. My cousins will commonly start a sentence in English and finish it in Welsh, or vice-versa. They are truly bilingual. It's a skill they had from childhood that always impressed me, and of which I must admit to feeling a little envious at times. Both became teachers, and as fluent Welsh speakers had job opportunities all over the country. Both walked into well paid jobs, and with 3 bed houses selling for 30k not that long ago, they're both mortgage free in their 30s. If you don't mind staying in Wales, it's a good life. Last edited by: DP on Fri 20 Sep 13 at 13:59
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 13:58
The Great Divide - Cliff Pope
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I've lived in Carmarthenshire, nearly on the meeting of Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire, for 28 years, and I have never ever had anyone deliberately use Welsh just to embarass me. In fact, Welsh people seem to have an uncanny ability to assess one's linguistic non-abilities at a glance, and respond accordingly. In a busy shop or pub they can be holding several conversations simultaneously, flipping effortlessly between Welsh and English, bantering with a friend in Welsh while negotiating a price in English. Yes, official telephone responses often have a Welsh greeting first before the English, but that's OK. (Apart from the automatic announcer at Aberystwyth station, who will tell an entirely empty platform not to leave unattended bags or they will be blown up, and not to smoke. ) Road signs at the side of the road invariably have the Welsh first. But a sign written on the road surface puts the English first. At least, I judge "first" as being the bit of writing you would see first, or headlights illuminate first. It has the bizare implication that English eyesight is shorter than Welsh, so we need earlier warning to slow down. |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 14:09
The Great Divide - Alanovich
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>> I've lived in Carmarthenshire, nearly on the meeting of Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire, for 28 years, >> and I have never ever had anyone deliberately use Welsh just to embarass me. It has happened to me in a farming supplies store in Nantgaredig and a couple of pubs in Carmarthen itself. Hasn't happened to me personally for quite a few years, though. I'm a regular there as mother still lives there (Towy Valley - going next weekend as it goes). But my Mum ran a pub/restaurant for a few years not so long ago, and found that a lot of the locals were quite rude in their use of Welsh when dining there. They knew who she was as she'd been in the area 20 years, but would use Welsh to her on entering the premises even if she greeted them in English, and feigned incomprehension, surprise and disapproval when informed Welsh was unfortunately not spoken. Then the patronising began. Maybe Mum should have learnt Welsh, but the condescending and parochial attitude amongst some (but a long way form all) of the rural community there is still about. |
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New Fri 20 Sep 13 14:25
The Great Divide - Cliff Pope
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>> >> of the rural community there is still about. >> That's really odd. I'd have put the farmers and workers I've met and know as the salt of the earth. Any slight sense of resentment I've picked up has been from the town/academic community. Perhaps like any rural people they tend not to like townees or newcomers straight off. Or maybe, developing an idea I have sometimes expounded, people are always treated in exactly the way they expect to be treated, and bring patronage, prejudice, bullying, or kindness upon themselves, by some mysterious mechanism? |
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