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I'm looking to buy my son a new laptop for xmas. All the ones i,ve looked at come with Windows 8. Most of the stuff i read about Windows 8 isn't very complimentary, should i avoid it, or is it even possible to avoid !
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If you go into a high street shop to buy the laptop then almost impossible to avoid. If you buy online or get it somewhere without an OS installed, you can sort it out.
Windows 8 design paradigm is appalling. Microsoft recognised tablets with a touch interface were taking away an awful lot of sales. Instead of realising it was the convenience of the tablet that was one of the factors and not touch that was driving this, they slapped on an interface that needed touch. And justified it by sharing code with their ill fated tablets.
Their approach to tablets so far has been terrible too. Intel based ones running Windows 8 too expensive. Windows RT ones on ARM too expensive and one app that should have been included from day one was Outlook and they kept that for the Windows 8 one. Surprised Balmer lasted this long.
Anyway if I were you, I'd look to get Windows 7 or a laptop without an OS and install Windows 7 yourself.
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I see some online retailers are selling laptops with Windows 7 / 8 - Windows 7 installable because of downgrade rights to older versions.
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You could wait for Windows 8.1 which MS has just released to PC manufacturers; which I believe looks more like a normal operating system!
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>> You could wait for Windows 8.1 which MS has just released to PC manufacturers; which
>> I believe looks more like a normal operating system!
Kind of, its just a kludge, Available on October 18th I think,
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Meant to add, it will be pushed as a fixpack to existing win 8.0 users but it seems it may have a one-time choice to activate the Win7-esque desktop feature.
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Yep, the return of the Start Button, but no start menu behind it. Metro still lurks behind it.
On the basis you're pretty much with Win 8 on new machines in consumer world then I'd either grit my teeth and get used to it, or install one of the cheap/free gui customisers like classic shell:-
www.classicshell.net/
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It looks like there is still a market for PCs with Win7 or without an OS out of the box.
Why does no one in the UK fill it ?
snogard.de offer No OS, Win 7 or Win 8. For a home PC does it really matter if it is Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge or Haswell to your typical home user ? How are snogard offering Win 7 ? It must be generally available for them to selling new PCs with it pre-installed.
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I can still buy legal shrink-wrapped genuine copies of all flavours of Win7
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Exactly !
So why are the high street stores not pre-packaging it in an out of the box PC or laptop offer ?
What's stopping them ?
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>> Exactly !
>> So why are the high street stores not pre-packaging it in an out of the
>> box PC or laptop offer ?
>>
>> What's stopping them ?
>>
Maybe Microsoft are. Companies don't like acknowledging their latest product is worse that the one it replaced.
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If that were true then no one would be supplying new PCs with Win 7 as MS would not let anyone have a licence.
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>> If that were true then no one would be supplying new PCs with Win 7
>> as MS would not let anyone have a licence.
>>
True enough I suppose, but the big retail outlets must supply the vast majority of the world's PCs and they could well be under pressure to go with the latest OS.
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They get whats called "retail support" - bribes to you and me. Like a machine shipped with win 7 will cost them 50 dollars for a license, one shipped with 8 will cost 5 bucks.
Huge backlash tho, the PC makers are blaming MS for killing the PC market (and believe me, in relative terms the PC/Laptop market has turned into a rotting corpse) with Windows 8 and they are kicking back and some are now shipping with OS choice (7 or 8) at first boot up. The corporates have told MS they are not moving to 8 so they have to keep 7 alive.
It cost Balmer his job, and MS have panicked and gone and bought Nokia in some wild attempt to keep the Win 8 UI alive.
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>It cost Balmer his job, and MS have panicked and gone and bought Nokia in some wild attempt to keep
>the Win 8 UI alive.
Microsoft bought Nokia for their patents, just like Google bought Motorola Mobile for the patents.
The battleground now is the mobile market.
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>> Microsoft bought Nokia for their patents
>>
Imagine if that's true, Microsoft tyres and when you get a flat you get the Blue Skid of Death.
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>> >It cost Balmer his job, and MS have panicked and gone and bought Nokia in
>> some wild attempt to keep
>> >the Win 8 UI alive.
>>
>> Microsoft bought Nokia for their patents,
They bought them because Nokia were going to bring out an android line or fold, and a chunk of MS's plan for mobile would fold with them.
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>They bought them because Nokia were going to bring out an android line or fold, and a chunk of MS's plan
>for mobile would fold with them.
Not that simple Zero.
The PC age is dead. It's mobile and The Cloud now.
Whoever controls the mobile arena is going to reap the rewards. It's patents, patents, patents. Watch this space.
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>> >They bought them because Nokia were going to bring out an android line or fold,
>> and a chunk of MS's plan
>> >for mobile would fold with them.
>>
>> Not that simple Zero.
>>
>> The PC age is dead. It's mobile and The Cloud now.
I've been telling you that.
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Big retailers sell Windows preloaded PCs because
1. Microsoft wants in that way and Microsoft provide help in ads and store set up via considerable investment
2. Selling Windows PC means some customers will buy Office, Anti virus etc from them - extra revenue for retailers
3. Their support team is trained on Windows. Imagine maintaining different teams for each Linux distros!
Profit margin on software is much higher than hardware! If people move away from Mac/Windows, it's an alarm bell ringing for retailers!
>> It cost Balmer his job
But once Bslmer is gone, will Microsoft ditch Windows 8? Don't think so. Using Windows 8, MS followed Apple's footstep. They want to take cut of all software sold via their own marketplace.
Last edited by: movilogo on Sat 14 Sep 13 at 21:43
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The problem for Microsoft is how to move away from the UI that is basically shared between Windows 8 desktop and Windows 8 tablet. An about turn might be difficult and mobile is the thing.
They probably should have kept a Windows 7 R2 for those that wanted it and gone for a tablet/ type OS for the others. Underneath they could share an OS but the UI and apps would be different.
A touch UI that relies on interacting with the screen does not work properly for a desktop OS. Touchpads with multi-touch maybe. But that could be done in Windows 7.
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>> It looks like there is still a market for PCs with Win7 or without an
>> OS out of the box.
>>
>> Why does no one in the UK fill it ?
>>
I know very little about the technicalities of computers. It seems Novatech still offer a choice of windows 7 or 8.
(Immediately under 'price', where it says 'no operating system installed')
www.novatech.co.uk/pc/range/novatechlifenta20.html
Depending which OS you go for can double the price of the PC!
Last edited by: Duncan on Sun 15 Sep 13 at 10:10
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>>
>> (Immediately under 'price', where it says 'no operating system installed')
>>
>> www.novatech.co.uk/pc/range/novatechlifenta20.html
>>
>> Depending which OS you go for can double the price of the PC!
>>
Win 8 systems cheaper than Win 7, no surprise there!
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Which brings you back to Zero's comment about "retail support" above.
It appears the high street retailers aren't interested in small profits just the fat juicy ones.
This website is only a small representation of the real world but when you look at how many here want Win7 rather than Win8 you'd think some profit is better than none. There you go Rattle...
Mobile is where it is at as people have said but I'm still not sure about Cloud technology. Many people copy what they have at work and Banks, Automotive etc... are traditionally conservative about that kind of thing. Internal Clouds will exist, but then they already do so no change there. A few companies are inviting employees to "run what you brung" to get away from supplying hardware but I'd be very skeptical about installing company spyware on my own hardware. I'd want something with a separate boot for work and home use, I would not want all the company spyware tracking home use.
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Looking on ebay you can get a genuine 64 bit Win7 DVD from around £40, so maybe a clean machine with no OS is the way to go. Desktops are still my machine of choice, portability is of no use to me and I hate touch screens even on mobile phones. They are just too slow and clumsy.
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>> Looking on ebay you can get a genuine 64 bit Win7 DVD from around £40,
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>>Desktops are still my machine of choice, portability is of no use to me and I hate touch screens even on mobile phones
I'm with this^ O'geezer.
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My main computers are all either desktop or work laptop. A touch interface is of no use. In fact my work laptop (Windows 7) is normally accessed via an RDP session from an iMac when at home - to use keyboard, mouse and higher resolution (and larger) display.
But I have three Android devices. Phone, main tablet (10") and now a new 7" (trying out Android 4.3 on this and it is very good... tablet that is.... it's a Nook HD which has good specifications).
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>> >>Desktops are still my machine of choice, portability is of no use to me and
>> I hate touch screens even on mobile phones
>>
>> I'm with this^ O'geezer.
>>
So am I.
And... I prefer to have the applications and data on the PC, and not on the cloud.
1/ That way I am in control of the data.
2/ I am not dependant on the internet, ie speed and accessibility.
Many of the tools I use on my work PC are now based on the cloud (EPC, accessory catalogue etc ) and at best I suffer lag (too many users, both at my work and I guess trying to access from all other dealers...) or at worst no access at all.
A customer standing at my desk wants his parts NOW, or at least know when/how much, while he is with me, if the site is down there is nothing I can do for him....
Customers are not best pleased when I phone, and tell them we do have the part in stock, now would he like to travel back to us to buy it? - after driving 5 miles or more...
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Now sit back and think about this.
how much data do you have that you need to be in control of? If you are a normal user, not much at all really.
And then consider, how much of your internet use is dependent on a link to the internet?
Most of it I'll wager.
There are try few technical or security reasons why you need to stick to a PC. Me? I do it because the ergonomics are so much better. A keyboard I can use comfortably, and a screen I don't have to hold.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 16 Sep 13 at 07:36
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There are try few technical or security reasons why you need to stick to a PC. Me? I do it because the ergonomics are so much better. A keyboard I can use comfortably, and a screen I don't have to hold.
And a far bigger screen.
Another couple of points in the anti touch screen argument is I don't want to spend my life cleaning the screen of fingermarks and since one needs a mouse for other things, darting between a mouse and screen takes longer (my right hand operation is a bit impaired, works at big things ok but useless at delicate stuff).
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>> And then consider, how much of your internet use is dependent on a link to
>> the internet?
>>
>> Most of it I'll wager.
I would say 100% of internet use is dependent on a link to the internet!
At home I need to be in control of most of the data - pictures, documents, etc...
At work, I don't need control of the data, but I do require dependable access to it -something I used to have when it was on a local server, but now that that data is on the vehicle manufacturers server it isn't so reliably or quickly accessible.
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>>
>> I would say 100% of internet use is dependent on a link to the internet!
Typo - you know what I meant. there really is no use for a home PC without the internet.
>> At home I need to be in control of most of the data - pictures,
>> documents, etc...
You are not in control, you only store them. They could be stored anywhere, Unless you are the only person that looks at them or access them and only ever need them at home in one place.
As soon as you fill in, or send off any electronic form, you are no longer in control of it or the data it holds.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 16 Sep 13 at 22:15
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>> >> At home I need to be in control of most of the data - pictures, documents, etc...
>>
>> You are not in control, you only store them. They could be stored anywhere, Unless
>> you are the only person that looks at them or access them and only ever need them at home in one place.
Beg to differ.
If they are stored on my machine, then I am in control of who gains access (bar being hacked or HD failure -hence backing up!) and I am also in control of my availability of said files.
If however, they are on the cloud, then the owners of that part of the cloud have ultimate control - and I will need internet connection to view said files.
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MS must be getting desperate:
Microsoft offers $200 token for used iPads.
Microsoft has launched a US marketing offer for people to exchange "gently used" iPads for Microsoft products such as Surface tablets.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24079527
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>> >> there really is no use for a home
>> PC without the internet.
>>
Well, in the days before the internet was available properly in the domestic environment, I had a PC for word processing and games. Even in the days of Amstrad green screen efforts they had a use, albeit limited. An uncle of mine used a green screen jobbie for writing freelance articles for a specialist media. Pretty comprehensively trounced a typewriter for that.
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I'd still have a PC if I had no internet precisely for the reasons Alanovic states. Going back to manually doing my accounts in a Simplex D would not be something I'd look forward to and spreadsheets don't make mistakes adding up.
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>> >> >> there really is no use for a home
>> >> PC without the internet.
>> >>
>>
>> Well, in the days before the internet was available properly in the domestic environment, I
>> had a PC for word processing and games. Even in the days of Amstrad green
>> screen efforts they had a use, albeit limited. An uncle of mine used a green
>> screen jobbie for writing freelance articles for a specialist media. Pretty comprehensively trounced a typewriter
>> for that.
Exactly we really are scratching around to justify why we had one 'back in the day"
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Windows 8 - rtj70
