All right, Spain. You've asked for this.
You've issued one of your five-yearly threats to seize, impound, disrupt, tax or otherwise penalise Gibraltar and its residents on the grounds that this small bit of rock is attached to the bigger bit of rock you call home.
For some, this provides irrefutable proof that Gibraltar is Spanish. Presumably in the same way that China is Russian and Denmark belongs to Germany.
Let’s look at the facts, shall we?
1. Gibraltar is about as Spanish as pie and chips. The first recorded occupants were Lebanese traders , followed by Germans, Romans, and the Islamic empire. The first castle was built by a Berber sultan and it wasn't captured by the Spanish until 1462.
2. Twelve years later you sold it.
3. You spent 200 years or so invading much of the world, killing millions of Amerindians with smallpox , and burning and torturing those that survived because they didn’t think eating a thin bit of flour and water was the same thing as eating the body of a man they’d never met .
4. You tried to do the same here, first by marriage and then by invasion . Not the best way to make friends.
5. You did nothing very much with Gib for two centuries and then lost it in a fight with us and the Dutch. The fight was about whether a French prince could succeed to the Spanish crown and thus rule half of Europe. Most of Europe didn’t like the idea, and you were invaded by pretty much everyone up to and including the Holy Roman Empire.
6. Unsurprisingly, you lost. We all signed the Treaty of Utrecht in which the French prince was allowed to have Spain so long as he promised to be nice and sign away a few things. Article X states: “The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications and forts hereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.”
7. There’s not a lot of wriggle-room in that. Lawyers, eh?
8. What you gave us in 1714 was a 300-year-old Moorish castle, a medieval town and a fishing port. In the years since we have turned it into a naval base, a financial centre, tourist destination and online gaming base which turns over £650million a year and provides employment for 10,000 of your citizens. You’re welcome.
9. The last person who seriously laid claim to it is the fascist dictator you’d rather forget, and there were referendums in 1967 and 2002 which found 99% of the population wanted to remain British.
10. In 500 years of warring you've lost far more often than you've won and you have, most noticeably, consistently failed to win against us. You tried to seize Gibraltar by force twice in the 18th century and failed miserably on each attempt, since we smashed your Armada in 1588 it’s never been the same since.
Considering all this, it is entirely understandable that with your economy on its backside, suicides endemic following eviction and a government not so much beleaguered as halfway to hell and still digging you might feel the need to hark back to the days of empire and rattle the old sabre a bit.
You are though on rather shaky ground, not just because you signed a contract and the 30,000 Gibraltarians want you in charge of them about as much as they want to contract the ebola virus.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 12 Sep 13 at 01:24
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Probably not likely to make the Spaniels say "oh, you're right, we're sorry, you can keep it".
If they sent the armada now we'd all be eating humble paella by Christmas.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 12:34
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>> a naval base, a financial centre, tourist destination and online gaming base which turns over £650million a year and provides employment for 10,000 of your citizens. You’re welcome.
I can't possibly think why they'd want it.
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>>If they sent the armada now we'd all be eating humble paella by Christmas.
21,000 people in the Spanish Armada. Total.
35,000 regular, 27,000 regular reserves and 3,000 volunteer reserves in the British Navy.
Now, I've no idea how that works out in type of staff, skills and duties, nor how it pans out in terms of equipment and readiness.
But given those figures and Spain's almost total lack of dosh, I am unconcerned about the unlikely possibility of Paella for Christmas Lunch.
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That is a huge number of people to crew and support 78 Vessels!
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>> That is a huge number of people to crew and support 78 Vessels!
>>
And many of them are smaller than the motor yachts in Spanish marinas.
tinyurl.com/n6cr9xr
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 14:29
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Perhaps it includes the Marines. They've got a few.
Still, my point remains.
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Why are so many people so keen to see the worst in everything.
The Spanish have a total of 54 vessels.
That's less.
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I was once involved in an annual fast patrol boat exercise off the coast of Norway. It was always easy to spot our solitary contribution amongst the squadrons of boats from the Scandinavian countries, it was the only one that was totally unarmed, the others were all armed to the teeth with guns and missiles.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 14:35
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>> Why are so many people so keen to see the worst in everything.
I'm not, really. We should still have the beating of Spain if came to hey lads, hey.
I just wanted to use the humble paella line.
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The Spanish have fewer vessels to meet a lesser Naval commitment SFAIK, BUT they still have a carrier with Harrier aircraft to operate from it - we haven't! Marines tend to be on RN vessels and only have their own small high speed Landing Craft
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We have a couple of Dauntless class boats that could be fired up in a crisis - they are supposed to be the dogs' whatsit on eliminating airborne threats, we also have a couple of underwater boats that would prove a major psychological threat, at the very least to any Carrier class ship they put to sea. Please refer to the Falklands War for willingness to press a trigger finger if required.
I suppose a flight of mixed fixed wing aircraft and a tanker could be deployed to Gibraltar if required if someone could find the keys.
Personally the thought of two European powers (and NATO allies) going to a shooting war in this day and age is beyond belief.
What's forgotten here (probably) that what there is of UK Forces has been battle tested a lot recently - I'm sure the military will would be there if requried.
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>> two European powers (and NATO allies) going to a shooting war in this day....
It would be a war of the media and a whole bunch of political posturing.
Which is probably more scary.
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>> Why are so many people so keen to see the worst in everything.
>>
>> The Spanish have a total of 54 vessels.
>>
>> That's less.
>>
That's fewer!
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Depends.
54 vessels is fewer than 78 vessels, but 54 is less than 78.
And I meant that 54 is less than 78. Unclear though, I agree.
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>> I am unconcerned about
>> the unlikely possibility of Paella for Christmas Lunch.
Fair comment. They do have even fewer ships than the Royal Navy.
They could come in their aircraft carrier just to embarrass us.
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>>They could come in their aircraft carrier just to embarrass us
I don't think submarines embarrass very easily.
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The mere fact that it exists is embarrassing! They have one and we don't!
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So what?
Doesn't embarrass me.
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We have a very large and probably unsinkable aircraft carrier.....
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>> We have a very large and probably unsinkable aircraft carrier.....
>>
Unfortunately it is not very mobile. :-)
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Unsinkable but of limited use as it can't go anywhere ans we haven't got much to put on it in any event
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Stating the facts of our lack of worthwhile military capability, at a time when we need it, is not whining.
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>> Stating the facts of our lack of worthwhile military capability, at a time when we
>> need it, is not whining.
>>
I don't think we need it to deal with Spanish sabre rattling, however a (very) few old and well past their use by date submarines and the same few surface ships shown in the media whenever there is a "diplomatic spat" would not get us far in a shooting war. Successive governments have decimated our Navy and Air Force over many years and the Army is next. People (and politicians) need to realise that we are no longer a world power and certainly can't afford to become one again.
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>>
>> I don't think submarines embarrass very easily.
>>
The sub that sank the Belgrano certainly embarrassed us quite a lot. We've been explaining it ever since.
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>> The sub that sank the Belgrano certainly embarrassed us quite a lot. We've been explaining
>> it ever since.
>>
My mates who sank it were not the slightest bit embarrassed, nor felt the need to explain themselves. It was war, the Belgrano was a threat, it was sunk. No problem.
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"In 2002 Britain accidentally invaded Spain when a detachment of Marines from 45 Commando mistakenly stormed a beach in La Linea de la Concepción, the Spanish town that borders Gibraltar.
They were repulsed by two Spanish police officers"
elpais.com/elpais/2013/08/09/inenglish/1376066743_105037.html
:}
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>> They were repulsed by two Spanish police officers"
>>
>
Perhaps they shouldn't have looked at them then.
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When I first spotted the news I thought it had to be about France messing us about.
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In May 2013, Navantia announced that a serious weight imbalance design flaw had been identified which will delay the delivery of the first submarine to the Spanish Navy until possibly 2017.[15] Excess weight of 75 - 100 tons has been added to the sub during construction and the current design is not able to resurface after diving.[16][17] A former Spanish official says the problem can be traced to a miscalculation — someone apparently put a decimal point in the wrong place.[18] Lengthening the submarine would create additional buoyancy, though at a cost of €7.5m per metre.[16] With the project also suffering with an underperforming AIP system (which was to allow the submarine to stay underway for 28 days but was only managing one week) the Spanish Defence Ministry announced in June 2013 that Navantia has signed on the US company General Dynamics Electric Boat to help solve the troubled project.[19]
From Wiki. Don't look good does it.
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"There’s not a lot of wriggle-room in that. Lawyers, eh?"
More than your partial quoting of the Treaty of Utrecht would allow Meldrew.
Under the terms of the treaty no trade was to be allowed between Gibralter and Spain unless in an emergency
"But if any goods be found imported by Gibraltar, either by way of barter for purchasing provisions, or under any other pretence, the same shall be confiscated, and complaint being made thereof, those persons who have acted contrary to the faith of this treaty, shall be severely punished."
I take it you will insist that the Gibralter authorities enforce this provision?
Seriously once this current spat has passed its really about time the UK and Spain sat down together and came to some sort of joint sovereignty agreement instead of partaking in all this adolescent posturing.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 15:46
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'Joint sovereignty' is only possible if all parties are in harmony. If they aren't, it's a meaningless, downright idiotic idea. Would this country want joint sovereignty with Spain or Argentina over some territory they were claiming? Only if it meant to hand the territory over.
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"Joint sovereignty' is only possible if all parties are in harmony"
True and its about time they got in harmony. Spain and The UK aren't enemies, they're joint members of the EU with much in common. Three hundred years of arguing about the ownership of a large piece of rock is surely long enough. It can't be beyond the wit of the two supposedly moderate democratic governments to sort out a solution. They need their heads knocking together.
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Three hundred years of arguing
>> about the ownership of a large piece of rock is surely long enough. It can't
>> be beyond the wit of the two supposedly moderate democratic governments to sort out a
>> solution. They need their heads knocking together.
>>
In fairness when the parties are at total odds over a single issue, it remains far from simple.
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>> It can't be beyond the wit of the two supposedly moderate democratic governments to sort out a solution
Of course its not. But that's not the issue.
However, suppose the ideal solution is that Gibraltar should be Spanish. Do you think that either The Sun or the Mirror could cope with that or that the UK electorate had the with to undertsand it?
Equally, suppose it was the other way and that Gibraltar should remain British; Do you suppose that El Pais or El Mundo or the Spanish electorate could understand?
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>> >> It can't be beyond the wit of the two supposedly moderate democratic governments to
>> sort out a solution
>>
>> Of course its not. But that's not the issue.
>>
>> However, suppose the ideal solution is that Gibraltar should be Spanish. Do you think that
>> either The Sun or the Mirror could cope with that or that the UK electorate
>> had the with to undertsand it?
>>
>> Equally, suppose it was the other way and that Gibraltar should remain British; Do you
>> suppose that El Pais or El Mundo or the Spanish electorate could understand?
>>
And the Gibraltar Chronicle it's readers and the electorate of Gibraltar would have a say.
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>> >> It can't be beyond the wit of the two supposedly moderate democratic governments to
>> sort out a solution
>>
>> Of course its not. But that's not the issue.
>>
>> However, suppose the ideal solution is that Gibraltar should be Spanish. Do you think that
>> either The Sun or the Mirror could cope with that or that the UK electorate
>> had the with to undertsand it?
>>
>> Equally, suppose it was the other way and that Gibraltar should remain British; Do you
>> suppose that El Pais or El Mundo or the Spanish electorate could understand?
There is a slight fly in the ointment here, beyond the ire of newspapers. The people of Gibraltar are rabidly anti Spanish, on such a high level thats difficult for an outsider (British or Spanish) to understand. The last thing the Spanish need is another stroppy province.
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"Equally, suppose it was the other way and that Gibraltar should remain British; Do you suppose that El Pais or El Mundo or the Spanish electorate could understand?"
If two civilised countries can't agree to share a rock I fear there's little hope for the world.
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I wouldn't be so down CGN, countries lay claim to others and have done for a while. We're still all here.
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The world will end, its just a matter of time, not Gibraltar.
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Down - I'm never down! I'm just amused and constantly amazed by the things that people, and countries argue about.
Tweedledum and Tweedledee
Agreed to have a battle;
For Tweedledum said Tweedledee
Had spoiled his nice new rattle.
Just then flew down a monstrous crow,
As black as a tar-barrel;
Which frightened both the heroes so,
They quite forgot their quarrel
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Well I suppose that's one way to look at it.
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What use is their aircraft carrier in a war between Spain and the UK?
The range of a Eurofighter is 1,800 miles.
What really counts is number of aircraft, where we seem to outnumber them three to one.
Aircraft carriers are about projecting your military power across the globe, not down the street.
Anyway, this conversation is only a bit of fun. We know that we aren't going to landing marines in Spain, or having dogfights over London.
This will all die down quickly....if not...then it's just a quick tactical nuclear strike on Madrid...
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As most of Gibraltar's business is online UK gambling. let the Spanish have Gibraltar. The UK gambling companies relocate to the UK, Spanish lose their jobs. (and gambllng taxes)
Job Done.
Uk sub sinks Spanish aircraft carrier as it's in UK waters...oops a Belgrano moment...
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Range of a Eurofighter is almost whatever you want it to be, if you can refuel them in the air. However as our own tankers are few in number and over 40 years old, we finished up having to get the use of an Italian one to get 4 Typhoons to Singapore in May. Currently there is an advanced Tanker project, put out to tender and, at a current cost of 1 million pounds a day and running 18 months late had yet to refuel any RAF aircraft, on operations as opposed to trials Don't you just love MOD procurement?
Last edited by: Meldrew on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 18:45
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Why do they need planes? They've got 3 nuke subs. Nuke Spain . That will solve loads of problems..
Holiday in Spain to the eternal sunlight of our phosphorescent beaches Admire the half life of strontium 90. See the ruins of Gibraltar.
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The Llanitos do not want to be Spanish.
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Gibraltar is an evolution of Jebel Tarik, Tarik's Mountain in Arabic. Tarik and his men led the Saracen invasion of Spain which incidentally helped civilise the then very rough West Europeans.
I shouldn't wonder if Tarik is laughing in his grave at the continued mindless squabbling of those backward, shaggy, thuggish European tribes.
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>> Tarik and his men led the Saracen invasion
They would have understood very thoroughly that what you hold, you have. People did understand that in those days, before they all had lawyers and could run blubbing to the UN...
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Not a massive issue as being made out. This sort of thing goes on all the time, they get a little temper tantrum and start silly boarder nonsense.
Although I'm not too sure why they want control of more territory that doesn't want to be Spanish? I would have thought they would have their hands full already with Independence movements inside Spain.
The ships 'sent' have been on a long planned exercise, uk ships stop there fairly often.
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Spain has economic and other major problems, as is the case with so many other countries.
Simple way to divert public concern is to do a bit of sabre-rattling...:-)
It's a tactic that's been used for many years by politicians.
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>> Simple way to divert public concern is to do a bit of sabre-rattling...:-)
It occurred to me I wasn't sure what a rattled sabre actually sounded like, so I had a Google for an mp3, with no success. But I did find an interesting byway in Chilean history, so thank you for the nudge.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saber_noise
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From that wiki article - nasty stuff! Darned Belgians.
When the sabre was used by mounted police against crowds, the results could be appalling, as in a key scene in Doctor Zhivago. The sabre was later phased out in favour of the baton (or night stick) for both practical and humanitarian reasons. The Gendarmerie of Belgium used them until at least 1950.
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Don't forget the bit of lethal sabre rattling which took place not three miles from where I sit and type this.
The Peterloo massacre still looms large in the history of Mancunians.
Ted
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>> Peterloo massacre
Wasn't just 'rattling' that time Ted.
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How's about we give Gibraltar to, oh I don't know, Morocco? See how that sits with them.
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>> How's about we give Gibraltar to, oh I don't know, Morocco? See how that sits
>> with them.
With who? The Moroccans or the Gibraltarians?
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You knew who I meant. And you knew I was kidding.
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so was I, My bit was funnier.
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I;d be moving pretty quick if you were.
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Deliberate Spanish ploy to lure the British Navy over to the Med then Argentina invades the Falklands. Eye off the ball and all that.
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Only if they row across (or punt, AC).
The Glorious Armada de la Republica Argentina currently has 42 ships. Sadly only 12 of those are actually seaworthy and one of those sank whilst it was moored in January and the Antarctic Patrol ship caught fire. And that's "seaworthy" rather than actually "at sea".
Their finances mean that even those ships which can sail are restricted to no more than 12 days at sea per year each.
They can only afford for the Submarines to be submerged for no more than 6 hours each. The shells and torpedoes are all out of date and may or may not work. And they have no money to repair or build anything, in fact they can't even afford the fuel.
And the last foreign trip they made of any significance involved their trainer getting seized in Ghana of all places for unpaid debts. And despite the fact that they got it back, its now moored up because they haven't got eh cash to finance its next trip.
And their air force is better but still rubbish. They're still flying 50yr old Mirage, they have no military radar covering their own country and they've had to disband their transport fleet. Half their Hercules are grounded because they can't afford the spares and even the half-decent jets they do have are a bunch of 1970s Skyhawks they bought from the US and they struggle to maintain them.
Of course they did recently agree to by 25 odd second hand Mirages from the Spanish (imagine the state of those!) and are currently trying to negotiate delivery & price. I'm sure that's unrelated to their support of Spain over Gibraltar.
They own a total of about 150/175 aircraft, but that includes the ones that don't fly (normal seen as an essential function of a airplane) - even if they fixed them all tomorrow, which they can't, its still only about 1/5 of what the UK has.
Cristina Kirchner (President) & Hector Timerman (Foreign Secretary) said that Argentina would take no military action. What they mean is that they can't.
I wouldn't worry about any Argentine military action.
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Not really! In Gib they are about 4 days closer to Falklands so reaction time is reduced
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These are good webcams, I get stressed out just watching em!
www.frontierqueue.gi/Default.aspx
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Thought for Today - Gibraltar - Manatee
