As a non-smoker I have no view one way or the other but, as I understand it these give smokers an intake of nicotine without the risk of cancer and without noxious fumes. This sound like a reasonable answer for the smokers and the public.
However, my broadsheet newspaper reports today, that Transport for London plans to ban them on the ground they "Look too realistic". This is the thin end of the wedge! Am I going to be banned because my face looks like a car crash? Staff are already banned from using them and this is going to be extended to passengers. For me this falls into the "Haven't they got anything better to do?" category
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I can sympathise with the authorities, because they make the things look as closely to the real thing as they can, its going to cause real problems in banning the real thing.
Why do they have to make them look like the real thing? Make you look like a complete prikc with a plastic thing stuck in your gob with an led on the end and fake smoke coming off it.
Ah question answered. The ridicule will probably make you want to give up completely.
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>> my broadsheet newspaper reports today
tinyurl.com/lp83pd9
>> "Haven't they got anything better to do?"
Probably not. Mind the gap.
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Perlease! That isn't a broadsheet - it is a freebie funded by a vast property supplement full of houses where i don't want to live and/or can't afford!
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Only one of a couple I found with a quick google search.
The Times wanted some wonga to view the full article. Sod that.
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They don't look remotely like real cigarettes and to me they taste choking and horrible, far more so than toxic smoke.
Nicotine chewing gum is far less unpleasant.
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The "Full Article" was only about 100 words max, saying what I posted.
Passengers on public transport in London could be banned from using electronic cigarettes because they look too realistic.
Transport for London staff have already been banned from using e-cigarettes at work and are expected to take e-cigarette breaks, despite the devices posing no health or safety concerns.
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I know several people who seized on electronic cigarettes not long ago but they have all returned to the real thing.
I read the other day that there are now calls in France for them to be banned. Certainly a couple of the specialist shops selling them in my part of the world seem to have closed.
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Just goes to show how much of the original protesting about cigarettes was nothing to do with health concerns about secondary smoking and often to do with people disapproving for no good reason other than wanting to jump on a bandwagon.
I wouldn't use an electronic cigarette, but what on earth has it got to do with anyone else?
Except thought control.
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Banned on the grounds of what one has to wonder? Swindling the Governments out of squillions of taxes perhaps?
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>> Banned on the grounds of what one has to wonder?
because it makes enforcing the real thing more difficult and expensive.
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>
>>
>> because it makes enforcing the real thing more difficult and expensive.
>>
Exactly. You'd have staff going round all day checking whether someone is smoking a real cigarette or sucking a plastic dummy.
As for e cigarettes themselves they are just a gimmick. Horrid things that do not come close to replicating a real fag.
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>> Transport for London staff have already been banned from using e-cigarettes at work
...reason being (according to the article) that it didn't look good from a company image point of view.
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As a regular used of TFL I can't think of any inspiring aspects of the company "Image"!
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I don't understand the point of these things at all. They suggest the user really wants to stop smoking, but is too weak to do so.
Most people who smoke proper cigarettes in this day and age have no real interest in stopping. And why should they? It's a free country.
Most people who really want to stop, stop. They might try and fail a couple of times, but they will get there.
People who use e-cigs kind of bump along the middle with a bizarre, defeatist "I don't want to smoke any more but I'm addicted and these help" view .
Break the nicotine addiction (2-3 days and it's all over) and do it properly. Or go and buy 20 B&H and enjoy them.
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Your post seems to blur the lines between wanting to give up and having the strength of will to do so.
Do you mean to suggest that if somebody doesn't have the willpower to give up, then they really don't want to?
If so, I would disagree, although it is a view that is often aired.
I want a billion pounds, but I'm not prepared to take the risk and put in the effort to get it. It doesn't mean that I don't want it, it just means that I just don't want it enough to put the effort in.
Same with smoking. I reckon that there are plenty of people who, if they could choose, would give up, but just won't put the effort in.
These e-cigarettes would potentially seem a good answer. You quit (kind of), with no effort required.
Certainly it seems that there is a growing demand for them (at least for now).
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>> Your post seems to blur the lines between wanting to give up and having the
>> strength of will to do so.
>>
>> Do you mean to suggest that if somebody doesn't have the willpower to give up,
>> then they really don't want to?
>>
>> If so, I would disagree, although it is a view that is often aired.
I would hazard a guess that you have a: never smoked, or b: tried to give up and succeeded. Its really quite simple, you really need to want to give up to enable you summon up sufficient willpower to do so. So I disagree with your disagreement.
Using an e ciggy, you don't give up you are just "smoking" something else, and could easily go back to 20 marlborough in moments. You are, quite simply, still addicted, just using an alternative because the real thing is banned in public.
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>> I would hazard a guess that you have a: never smoked, or b: tried to
>> give up and succeeded. Its really quite simple, you really need to want to give
>> up to enable you summon up sufficient willpower to do so. So I disagree with
>> your disagreement.
Yes, I understand that Zero (and I can understand it without ever needing to be a smoker, because the same thing applies to anything that requires effort/willpower etc).
But, just because you don't have the willpower, doesn't mean that you don't want to give up, it just means that you don't want to give up enough to summon the willpower (or don't want to work hard enough to make a billion dollars).
An e-cigarette seems to do away with the need for willpower.
So, for the sub-set of people who do want to give up, but not enough to summon the willpower, the e-cigarette seems a potentially good solution.
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>> Yes, I understand that Zero (and I can understand it without ever needing to be
>> a smoker, because the same thing applies to anything that requires effort/willpower etc).
>>
>> But, just because you don't have the willpower, doesn't mean that you don't want to
>> give up, it just means that you don't want to give up enough to summon
>> the willpower (or don't want to work hard enough to make a billion dollars).
>>
>> An e-cigarette seems to do away with the need for willpower.
>>
>> So, for the sub-set of people who do want to give up, but not enough
>> to summon the willpower, the e-cigarette seems a potentially good solution.
Afraid you dont understand, at all, not even close. We are talking about a chemical and or physiological addiction here. Using an An e cigarette means you are still addicted on both fronts. You need to have been there (or still there).
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People who have never recognised an addiction in themselves simply don't understand the phenomenon. It looks simple to them, black and white. It has that dimension but there's lots more to it.
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>> People who have never recognised an addiction in themselves simply don't understand the phenomenon. It
>> looks simple to them, black and white. It has that dimension but there's lots more
>> to it.
The issue here is not really addiction, it is about wanting something and wanting it badly enough to get it.
Whether that is breaking an addiction, or otherwise.
I've had my addictions (but smoking hasn't been one of them), which I wanted to rid myself off, but for long periods didn't have the willpower to rid myself. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't have flipped a golden switch if I could.
The old saying "he doesn't want it enough", doesn't take into account the fact that getting it could suddenly become much easier.
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>> Afraid you dont understand, at all, not even close. We are talking about a chemical
>> and or physiological addiction here. Using an An e cigarette means you are still addicted
>> on both fronts. You need to have been there (or still there).
Ah, that's a completely different matter.
You originally said that a person only really wanted to quit if you wanted it enough to be able do it through willpower. That is wrong.
If you are saying that e-cigarette users are still addicted, that is correct.
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>> >> Afraid you dont understand, at all, not even close. We are talking about a
>> chemical
>> >> and or physiological addiction here. Using an An e cigarette means you are still
>> addicted
>> >> on both fronts. You need to have been there (or still there).
>>
>> Ah, that's a completely different matter.
>>
>> You originally said that a person only really wanted to quit if you wanted it
>> enough to be able do it through willpower. That is wrong.
Its not wrong. You don't quit unless you really want to. Why would you bother to trouble your willpower if you don't want to?
Subject closed, its clear you have no experience or first hand knowledge of the matter.
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>> Its not wrong. You don't quit unless you really want to. Why would you bother
>> to trouble your willpower if you don't want to?
It is wrong. You've confused two different things.
You can want something, but not want it enough to summon the willpower.
But with e-cigarettes you don't need to summon the willpower.
>> Subject closed, its clear you have no experience or first hand knowledge of the matter.
Any adult has experience of not having the willpower to get something that they would otherwise want.
You're not able, or willing, to address the point, so this is your get out, claiming that only people who have smoked can understand not having the willpower to do something.
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>> >> Its not wrong. You don't quit unless you really want to. Why would you
>> bother
>> >> to trouble your willpower if you don't want to?
>>
>> It is wrong. You've confused two different things.
>>
>> You can want something, but not want it enough to summon the willpower.
>>
>> But with e-cigarettes you don't need to summon the willpower.
>>
>> >> Subject closed, its clear you have no experience or first hand knowledge of the
>> matter.
>>
>> Any adult has experience of not having the willpower to get something that they would
>> otherwise want.
>>
>> You're not able, or willing, to address the point, so this is your get out,
>> claiming that only people who have smoked can understand not having the willpower to do
>> something.
You have no idea what you are talking about, None at all. Never smoked, never tried giving up, no skin in the game at all. Everyone else on here who have been there and done it - or failed dont know what they are talking about according to you.
I have been there and done it. Your credentials, and your examples are worthless. You are talking drivel, completely ignoring the chemical and psychological addiction. Stop blathering about the desire to make money its not the same thing at all.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 9 Aug 13 at 21:12
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>> I have been there and done it. Your credentials, and your examples are worthless. You
>> are talking drivel, completely ignoring the chemical and psychological addiction. Stop blathering about the desire
>> to make money its not the same thing at all.
I see that we are at the insult phase again.
As usual, a line of reasoning is advanced, and you can't actually explain why it might be wrong. All you can do is say that it is.
So we get insults, and now some claim that you have some special insight into human psychology (yet you can't explain it to other humans).
Insult phase...silence next?
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>> >> I have been there and done it. Your credentials, and your examples are worthless.
>> You
>> >> are talking drivel, completely ignoring the chemical and psychological addiction. Stop blathering about the
>> desire
>> >> to make money its not the same thing at all.
>>
>> I see that we are at the insult phase again.
>>
>> As usual, a line of reasoning is advanced, and you can't actually explain why it
>> might be wrong. All you can do is say that it is.
Its not an insult, its facts, unless I have you wrong.
For example
Please honestly, regale us with your insight, experience and knowledge of how you became addicted, (drugs, alcohol, gambling, nicotine) and beat the habit. Maybe describe the physical cravings and cold turkey effects you had?
No? none of that?
Ok maybe you would like to tell us your experience of counselling and guiding those so addicted through the phases of giving up?
No experience there either?
Ok how about your experience and training in the psychology of physical or mental dependence and how to devise quitting or coping strategies?
No? none of that either?
Ok maybe, just maybe, be honest and say you are completely ignoring the chemical and psychological addiction, you have no idea whats involved, and that using making money as an example was just a rough guess?
Will you be that honest? or do you just want to carry on having a row like you normally do?
Now tell me all of that is untrue.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 9 Aug 13 at 21:36
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>> If you are saying that e-cigarette users are still addicted, that is correct.
Stands to reason guv dunnit?
You haven't a clue SS.
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>> Stands to reason guv dunnit?
>>
>> You haven't a clue SS.
You're not stupid AC, so you've either mis-read or misunderstood what I've said.
Or do you genuinely think that you must be a smoker to understand the concept of not having enough willpower to do something?
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Yes, I genuinely do. It isn't a business plan. It's 'human psychology'.
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>> Yes, I genuinely do. It isn't a business plan. It's 'human psychology'.
Yes, well we're all human (more or less).
We've all had things that we wanted to do that were difficult, and require willpower, and so have insight into the concept of not having enough willpower to do something (or not do it).
Is it not fair to say that:
1) Somebody could want something, but not want it enough to summon the willpower.
2) That if the need for willpower was removed that person might take what they wanted.
If not, what special insight does a smoker have to know that the above is wrong?
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>> Is it not fair to say that:
I didn't say anything about fairness. It didn't cross my mind. Everything you say, the schematic analysis of willpower and wanting things quite a lot but not that much, stuff like that, is all fine as far as it goes.
But the reality of any addiction is bushier than that. Nice Nigerian word, 'bushy', and not at all complimentary by the way. You have to go there to know what it's like, believe me.
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>> Or go and buy 20 B&H and enjoy them<<
I'll just go for that option thanks DP:)...but well done you for giving up!
Pat
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Does nobody remember the King's Cross fire? I don't want people looking like they're smoking whilst I'm on the tube, thanks!
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I have given up but equally I respect the right of anyone else to continue smoking. As an ex smoker I have been on the receiving end of all the bitching and sanctimonious lecturing (smokers and fat people are the last groups society considers it acceptable to marginalise), and it sucks. But to me it's black and white. Smoke and enjoy, or quit. What is the point of an e-cig? It's not proper smoking but it's still a dependency.
Last edited by: DP on Fri 9 Aug 13 at 19:18
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The nicotine intake with no, or a lesser, risk of lung cancer? Nicotine patches might do the trick.
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>> But to me it's black and white. Smoke and
>> enjoy, or quit. What is the point of an e-cig? It's not proper smoking but
>> it's still a dependency.
So, the person who understands that they are seriously damaging their health, but can't find the willpower to quit, should just keep smoking, rather than exchanging it for a relatively harmless dependency?
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>> So, the person who understands that they are seriously damaging their health, but can't find
>> the willpower to quit, should just keep smoking, rather than exchanging it for a relatively
>> harmless dependency?
Harm not known, cost of alternatives certainly is and just as penal as the real thing. Its a real "screw the suckers" market.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 9 Aug 13 at 19:43
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>> rather than exchanging it for a relatively harmless dependency?
>>
>> Harm not known
Perhaps not, but do you pick something were the harm is known and is very substantial, or do you pick something where there is, currently, no known significant harm?
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Fri 9 Aug 13 at 20:06
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>> >> rather than exchanging it for a relatively harmless dependency?
>> >>
>> >> Harm not known
>>
>> Perhaps not, but do you pick something were the harm is known and is very
>> substantial, or do you pick something where there is, currently, no known significant harm?
You are still picking something that is an expensive and widely seen as antisocial (and soon to be banned from the sound of it) habit.
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Willpower alone is a terrible way to quit. There are a number of excellent resources out there which dramatically increase success rates and remove pretty much all of the trauma involved in quitting.
You need the desire to quit, but willpower isn't a requirement. I don't have any of the latter and I managed it. :-)
I firmly believe if you want to stop and approach it intelligently, utilising the most suitable of the many help methods, anyone can do it. I also believe most people continue to smoke primarily because they are happy to do so. The addiction can be dealt with, but you need to want to.
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>>
>> I firmly believe if you want to stop and approach it intelligently, utilising the most
>> suitable of the many help methods, anyone can do it. I also believe most people
>> continue to smoke primarily because they are happy to do so. The addiction can be
>> dealt with, but you need to want to.
>>
>>
>>
Absolutely spot on there DP.
Interestingly I have found it's the heaviest smokers - 40 a day plus who manage to make the break immediately and stay off them. I think it's because they smoke so many in the day there is no actual enjoyment, it's just a habit and when they break it they don't feel they are missing anything. I smoke 10 - 12 cigarettes a day and I enjoy every single one which has made giving up so hard I've given up giving up.
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>> Interestingly I have found it's the heaviest smokers - 40 a day plus who manage
>> to make the break immediately and stay off them. I think it's because they smoke
>> so many in the day there is no actual enjoyment, it's just a habit and
>> when they break it they don't feel they are missing anything. I smoke 10 -
>> 12 cigarettes a day and I enjoy every single one which has made giving up
>> so hard I've given up giving up.
I smoked about 20 a day for just shy of 20 years. My personal view started to change when I had kids because I couldn't reconcile my deep desire for them not to smoke with my own continued indulgence in the weed. Having to interrupt whatever I was doing also, for some bizarre reason after nearly 20 years, started to get on my nerves.
I've tried and failed with cold turkey / willpower twice before, but my research told me that so did 95% of other people who try this. The success rate is appalling.
Did a bit of research, and decided to give Allen Carr's Easyway book a whirl. It's been 10 months since I finished it, and put the last one out, and not been tempted once since, even after a few beers, or being around other smokers.
But whatever method you use, you need to want to do it.
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If Transport for London plans to ban them on the ground they "Look too realistic" can my wife not use her dildo on the Tube anymore?
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your wifes dildo looks like an e-ciggly?
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>> If Transport for London plans to ban them on the ground they "Look too realistic"
>> can my wife not use her dildo on the Tube anymore?
>>
Between which lips?
;-)
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the batteries run out just as quick as an e-cig
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I smoked quite heavily at one time: I gave up, cold turkey - no problems.
Reason - I wanted to enough.
I eat too much now. I am fat now.
Will I slim down? I am not sure that I want to enough to do so.
I think it's all in the mind- well, for me anyway.
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Electronic Cigarettes - Zero
