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Volume one is here
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 22 Mar 13 at 01:31
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From the previous thread.....
madf wrote:
>> That would make this "austerity" look like the summer teaparty which it is.
>>
I think that you are right, madf.
And in the spirit of the saying "Only Nixon can go to China", then "Only Labour can administer austerity".
The problem is that we don't have a Labour Party any more, but a bunch of careerist wonks who haven't got the foggiest idea of what a democratic socialist party should be about - just a smidgeon of social conscience backed by a few sound bites, slogans, affiliated pressure groups, and the politics of envy.
We need an Atlee. We are going to get a Miliband - and the wrong one at that.
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>> "Only
>> Labour can administer austerity".
>> The problem is that we don't have a Labour Party any more, but a bunch
No party can administer the required amount of austerity while it is still financed by, and its MP's are sponsored by, Unions
>> We need an Atlee. We are going to get a Miliband - and the wrong
>> one at that.
We need the aftermath of a world war to get people to accept austerity.
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The Cyprus Parliament has 100% rejected the bailout..
The IMF can make a Labour Government implement austerity.. Did it in the 1970s. The ONLY Gov't to cut NHS spending year on year - ever..iirc.
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>> The Cyprus Parliament has 100% rejected the bailout..
>>
>>
>> The IMF can make a Labour Government implement austerity.. Did it in the 1970s. The
>> ONLY Gov't to cut NHS spending year on year - ever..iirc.
and they got kicked out next term. Will never do that again.
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The NHS has become a sort of god of which no one dare speak ill. Its destined to eat up an even larger share of the national income with its ring fenced budget. Its as though people believe that if only enough is spent on medical care they will live forever.
Doesn't seem to be working though
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>> and they got kicked out next term. Will never do that again.
If Callaghan had gone for an election in Autumn 78 he'd probably have won. The IMF stuff was behind them by then. It was mishandling of the 'Social Contract' and the winter strikes that did for him.
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Amazing! as Zero states - big rejection! 56 MPs and the voting was 36 votes against, and 19 abstentions. One MP didn't even show up. Cyprus's parliament has 56 seats.. I doesn't get clearer cut than that so where next for the beleaguered Prime Minister? Talk of Russian energy supplier Gazprom coughing u €2.5 billion to get the rights to off-shore gas drilling.
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>> Amazing! as Zero states - big rejection! 56 MPs and the voting was 36 votes
>> against, and 19 abstentions. One MP didn't even show up. Cyprus's parliament has 56 seats..
>> I doesn't get clearer cut than that
Gosh, never seen such a clear cut display of sovereignty.
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>>Gosh, never seen such a clear cut display of sovereignty<<
The EU Commission wont like it, pesky thing sovereignty.
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The economy was a basket case - the tories ultimately turned that around. Somehow you wish they could come back sometimes....
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The EU was a grand idea in principle, provided it's members were broadly similar in their economies. Allowing countries that were little more than banana republics to jump on a massive gravy train to which they could contribute nothing turned it into a disaster.
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Cyprus is a strategic place, need to keep it out the hands of the Russians economically and militarily. ideally we should kick the turks off and ship the greeks back to greece
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 19 Mar 13 at 21:18
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ftalphaville.ft.com/2013/03/19/1430332/so-are-they-stupid/?
is worth reading.
Edit: you may have to register but it's free and worth reading on key events in finance.. also the comments,
Last edited by: madf on Tue 19 Mar 13 at 21:26
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That's a bold statement start another war.Look what has happened to Iraq ten years on total mess.
The day of policing the world is over for the time being we have to get our own house in order first.Putin is crafty well in with the Germans speaks their language perfect not to be underestimated.
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Well done Cyprus' MP's, Merkel and the unelected chiefs of the EU must be fuming.
Happy days.
Farage will have some interesting barbed comments in due course, looking forward to those.
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>> Well done Cyprus' MP's, Merkel and the unelected chiefs of the EU must be fuming.
>>
>> Happy days.
Indeed. Very happy - Whats you suggestion on how the Cypriots obtain the required amount of finance to capitalise their banking system BTW.
>>
>> Farage will have some interesting barbed comments in due course, looking forward to those.
Do you think he might say that this shows the Cypriot Government and parliament was able to exploit its national sovereignty even tho they were in the EU?
No? perhaps not.
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>> The economy was a basket case
That was the tory narrative. My recollection is that, notwithstanding BL etc, the country had a thriving set of small and medium scale engineering and consumer product businesses albeit under invested.
The monetarist experiment pushed them over the cliff as cost of working capital, never mind investment, went way out of reach.
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>> >> The economy was a basket case
>>
>> That was the tory narrative. My recollection is that, notwithstanding BL etc, the country had
>> a thriving set of small and medium scale engineering and consumer product businesses albeit under
>> invested.
Thriving? Were they thriving they would still be around. My recollection differs, seems to me they were inefficient, unreliable, expensive crap. And I excluded BL from that too because as you intimated it would be unfair to include that great beacon of socialist achievement.
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>> Thriving? Were they thriving they would still be around. My recollection differs, seems to me
>> they were inefficient, unreliable, expensive crap. And I excluded BL from that too because as
>> you intimated it would be unfair to include that great beacon of socialist achievement.
As I made clear they were thriving until the monetarist experiment pushed their financing costs through the roof and a high pound jiggered their export markets.
BL was of course the result of rescuing BMC and several other outfits from the consequences of a peculiarly British form of capitalism. One that focused on the directors dining room over the boardroom and regarded 'shop' in the dining room as an offence.
The Germans meanwhile all ate in the same dining room and invited the Unions into the boardroom.
Who surged ahead?
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>
>> BL was of course the result of rescuing BMC and several other outfits from the
>> consequences of a peculiarly British form of capitalism.
It was originally nationalised. A peculiar form of British socialism.
>>One that focused on the directors dining
>> room over the boardroom and regarded 'shop' in the dining room as an offence.
>>
>> The Germans meanwhile all ate in the same dining room and invited the Unions into
>> the boardroom.
>>
>> Who surged ahead?
German unions were shareholders in the company, British Unions could never consider dabbling in such capitalistic filth.
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>> It was originally nationalised. A peculiar form of British socialism.
BMC was a limited company listed on the LSE following the merger of Austin and Morris in te fifties. It subsequently swallowed up other bits of UK car manufacturing including Jaguar, Rover and Standard Triumph.
It was Nationalised after various utter failures to manage after the war had reduced it to a basket case.
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I might be easier if you listed the "Thriving" companies, that were destroyed by those nasty monetarists despite the brave efforts of the hard working union brotherhood to save them.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 19 Mar 13 at 23:03
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>> I might be easier if you listed the "Thriving" companies, that were destroyed by those
>> nasty monetarists despite the brave efforts of the hard working union brotherhood to save them.
Nothing to do with Unions as we're mostly talking of small/medium businesses where labour and management co-existed. Local to my home in Yorkshire were assorted woollen related mills/weavers, food machinery, electricals and sanitary ware.
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Oh right, you cant.
Thought not.
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>> Nothing to do with Unions as we're mostly talking of small/medium businesses where labour and
>> management co-existed. Local to my home in Yorkshire were assorted woollen related mills/weavers, food machinery,
>> electricals and sanitary ware.
I agree it was for the most part noting to do with unions. But it was largely inevitable.
In Colne Valley in the 70s there must have been dozens of businesses combing, spinning, weaving, dyeing and finishing. Within 10 years there were very few. I dealt with some of those struggling businesses in the early 80s. I was proudly shown a 100 year old machine still in use at one firm, an extreme example but much of the machinery was decades old.
Far eastern labour was far cheaper. One enterprising firm in particular established a good business buying up old spinning frames and looms and exporting them to developing countries who used them to produce much more cheaply than the Yorkshire firms could, even the ones who didn't go bust but installed up to date replacement machinery.
They were nearly all gone by 1990.
Earlier in the 70s I worked for a bank in Bradford. Lots of mills struggling. I remember a fraud where three connected firms colluded in cross firing cheques to stay afloat, the disgraced directors demonstrating just what basically honest people can be driven to when they are desperate enough (now they'd just have a perfectly legal pre-pack administration and legally run off with what was left of the creditors' money).
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If you lived in Colne around that time would you want to get paid little working in a mill, or would you get better pay trying to get a job with Rolls Royce? Not huge numbers employed by Rolls Royce near Colne (Barnoldswick) I suppose - around 1000.
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>> If you lived in Colne around that time would you want to get paid little
>> working in a mill, or would you get better pay trying to get a job
>> with Rolls Royce? Not huge numbers employed by Rolls Royce near Colne (Barnoldswick) I suppose
>> - around 1000.
Colne Valley = Huddersfield in this case.
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>> Colne Valley = Huddersfield in this case.
Not a million miles away. I assumed Colne as in close to Burnley as they were an area with cotton mills.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 20 Mar 13 at 21:25
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I think most of the mills were further east of Huddersfield, in the Heavy Woollen District.
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>> I think most of the mills were further east of Huddersfield, in the Heavy Woollen
>> District.
Funnily enough, the heavy woollen cloth manufacturing and associated processes...centred on Dewsbury, Batley, Heckmondwike. I went to school on the curiously named Yorkshire Woollen District Transport bus to Cleckheaton.
Huddersfield and Bradford were well known for fine worsted yarn and wool suit fabric. If you were counting mills, Bradford would probably win.
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Fair enough, I knew there were a lot in HWD some of my family worked in them during their heyday. I didn't realise there were that many in Bradford.
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>> German unions were shareholders in the company, British Unions could never consider dabbling in such
>> capitalistic filth.
>>
Typical Tory sneering at Trade Unions. The Labour Party, fully backed by the TUC, were champions of "Industrial Democracy" (as it was called then) as early as the 1960s, and the 1979 Manifesto clearly indicated that they regarded Germany as a good example of how to organize things properly.
Whereas the Tory approach (which no doubt you voted for in the 1980s) was to sell off the family silver at rock bottom prices (Privatisation) and squander the income from North Sea Oil, while simultaneously creating mass unemployment and stimulating Scottish Nationalism.
The Tories are ALWAYS wrong. They consistently stand against progress and reform then later have to reluctantly accept that they were wrong. Extension of the franchise, setting up the NHS, the minimum wage, equal rights, Lords reform - you name it and they come up with a weasel argument against it. Then when it becomes accepted as the norm they talk about it as if they had invented it.
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>> >> German unions were shareholders in the company, British Unions could never consider dabbling in
>> such
>> >> capitalistic filth.
>> >>
>> Typical Tory sneering at Trade Unions. The Labour Party, fully backed by the TUC, were
>> champions of "Industrial Democracy" (as it was called then) as early as the 1960s, and
>> the 1979 Manifesto clearly indicated that they regarded Germany as a good example of how
>> to organize things properly.
Can you provide any good examples where the labour party/unions actually put that into practise?
>> Whereas the Tory approach (which no doubt you voted for in the 1980s) was to
>> sell off the family silver at rock bottom prices (Privatisation) and squander the income from
>> North Sea Oil, while simultaneously creating mass unemployment and stimulating Scottish Nationalism.
>>
>> The Tories are ALWAYS wrong. They consistently stand against progress and reform then later have
>> to reluctantly accept that they were wrong. Extension of the franchise, setting up the NHS,
>> the minimum wage, equal rights, Lords reform - you name it and they come up
>> with a weasel argument against it. Then when it becomes accepted as the norm they
>> talk about it as if they had invented it.
Wow - touched a nerve there haven't we. Sell off the family silver? Like the Post office you mean? remember the days when you had to wait 56 weeks for a telephone to be installed, or moved?
Clearly the nasty tories have really screwed your life up haven't they. Oh wait - they haven't. I seem to really you are doing quite nicely. German Car I seem to recall.
And no, I didn't vote only for the tories. Only when their was no power because the miners were on strike.
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>> ...remember the days when you had to wait 56 weeks for a telephone to be installed, or moved?
What? EVERYBODY had to wait 56 weeks to get a phone installed? Where did you get that from? The Daily Mail?
>> Clearly the nasty tories have really screwed your life up haven't they. Oh wait - they haven't.
>> I seem to really you are doing quite nicely. German Car I seem to recall.
I managed to fight through the Tory years and look after myself. A lot of people (including some of my own relatives) were not so fortunate. The difference between you and I is that I have compassion for these people, whereas you callously regard them as "collateral damage". (I believe the usual Tory phrase is "A price worth paying")
Actually, I seem to have been the one to touch a raw nerve with you. You really don't like the thought that a nasty lefty like me is driving a better car than a nice middle-class chap like yourself. Yes it is German. An A5. A very handsome and capable car, and made in country whose worker/management relationship is exactly what you Tories hate.
>> And no, I didn't vote only for the tories. Only when their was no power because the miners were on strike.
Well, that's your outlook isn't it. "All strikes are wrong". The working class should know their place.
And despite your protestations to the contrary you are a Tory. If it looks like a Tory and walks like a Tory then it is a Zero Tory!
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>>And despite your protestations to the contrary you are a Tory. If it looks like a Tory and walks like a Tory then it is a Zero Tory!<<
Another great reason to vote UKIP. Thanks for that :-)
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WHO REMOVED MY RATHER TAME REPLY TO LONDONERS LAST POST AND WHY!
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^ I'm with this geezer, I saw the reply, and it was tame.
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>> WHO REMOVED MY RATHER TAME REPLY TO LONDONERS LAST POST AND WHY!
Not me (for a change). If it was rather tame, why are you SHOUTING! ;)
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>>The Tories are ALWAYS wrong
Do you mean individual politicians? Because they're all a bunch of gits whichever party they're from, including UKIP.
Or do you mean the policies behind the fundamental approach? Because in this case I disagree with you. Which bit of the promoted "belief" system do you disagree with?
Fundamentally I disagree with the Labour manifesto, agree with the Conservative manifesto, think the Libs are firmly embedded on a wonky fence, that other parties are simply pointless and that generally politicians from any party are total gits.
Unfortunately the politicians are our second biggest problem. The primary issue is the electorate.
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>> The Labour Party, fully backed by the TUC, were champions of "Industrial Democracy" (as it was called then) as early as the 1960s, and the 1979 Manifesto clearly indicated that they regarded Germany as a good example of how to organize things properly
The Labour Party and TUC may have indicated that, but the unions in (for example) the mining industry and the car industry behaved very differently. Union donkeys and moronic management suits between them ran the car industry into the ground.
I wasn't a Tory then and I'm not one now. But I could see what was in front of my eyes working in management jobs and labour jobs.
'Arthur Scargill is a breath of fresh air,' I remember a distinguished intellectual saying after a few years in the US. Ideologues can be truly idiotic. I wasn't at all keen on Mrs Thatcher but she was better than him.
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I'm not surprised German unions were organised properly. 1. Vic Feather set (or helped to set) the framework for German union organisation immediately post-war. 2. As I understand the situation in Germany, directors and managers were frequently to be seen on the "shop floor" and even spoke to the employees on a regular basis! However, it has to be said that, wearing his TUC hat, Feather was resistant to very same joint workers/employers councils, maybe as they cut across individual TU fiefdoms. In his case, older and less wise perhaps.
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>> As I understand the situation in Germany, directors and managers were frequently to be seen on the "shop floor" and even spoke to the employees on a regular basis!
Germany; 1985 - 1990 or thereabouts, specifically Munich. The Workers' Council was a total nightmare which even the workers disliked. It worked in favour of the WC Mgmt, and workers who didn't want to actually work. Everybody else suffered.
Employees who wished to work overtime had to apply for permission which was frequently refused. Even if the employee was trying to accumulate TOIL, the Workers Council still knew better.
Directors & Managers spent no particular amount of time talking to the workers, but considerable amounts of their time talking to the idiots at the Workers Council.
Various members of the Workers Council would drive the streets on a Saturday afternoon, on a Sunday, or after hours during the week looking for people working that they had not authorised. Those of us who were trying to complete stuff had to work more or less clandestinely.
They must have been deeply admired by the idiots at BL.
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The 1980s were indeed a decade of great economic change. It can't be ignored that many suffered as a result and my personal sympathies go out to those people and indeed communities who were detrimentally affected.
However, coins have two sides, the fashion business conversely went into hyper drive. Many of today's premium brands were born in the '80s and some continue to enjoy success to this day. My own personal experience of that decade was that everything more or less turned to gold commercially. My annual income by 1990 was more than 15 times that which I had been earning in 1980 and in my industry that was nothing particularly unusual.
It became almost believable that things would just always be like that and it would have been easy to become arrogant. The economic downturn of 1992 ( which we now know to have been relatively minor by today's standards ) was the first sign of a wobble in the High St which at that time faced no real competition. Sure there were mail order catalogues but they represented a small percentage of total activity and were at that time quite old in their customer profile.
Then came the internet...That changed everything again.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Tue 19 Mar 13 at 22:29
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Let them print money.
As my role model Queen Marie Antoinette might have said were she still among us.
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Funny AC, my role model was the inventor if the guillotine ! ;-0
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>> The IMF can make a Labour Government implement austerity.. Did it in the 1970s. The
>> ONLY Gov't to cut NHS spending year on year - ever..iirc.
>>
>>
And it was a labour government that devalued the pound in 1967.
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"And it was a labour government that devalued the pound in 1967."
but it was the Conservatives who repealed the Corn laws in 1846. ;-)
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>>The primary issue is the electorate.
How can we sack it and get a better one?
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The problem that the politicians have is they have bought votes and bribed countries to buy our exports with borrowed money for years and payback time is rapidly approaching.
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World markets are not going to crash .. but the Cypriot financial services sector is...
tinyurl.com/bwozyls
As for Tories being wrong all the time.. remind me of the last Labour Government which left the economy in rude health when it left power?
Don't bother answering: there has not been one.
This is not to say Tory Governments have been economic wunderkidz.. far from it. They have had their disasters as well... but when push comes to shove, they have done what is needful.
I have been very rude about Ed Balls.. I note no-one - but no-one - has rushed to defend his masterly grasp of how to run a country's economy into teh ground. Nor has anyone rushed to praise Gordon Brown.
Says it all really. Labour I am afraid have as much economic credibility as Ed Balls.
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>> As for Tories being wrong all the time.. remind me of the last Labour Government
>> which left the economy in rude health when it left power?
>>
>> Don't bother answering: there has not been one.
I don't think 45-51 was exactly a failure, in 1964 Reggie Maudling left a message for the incoming Labour Chancellor apologising for leaving everything in a mess. Even 74-9 was looking up bu the end, certainly the worst of inflation was over, an inflation arising largely out of Barber's boom in 72-4.
>> Says it all really. Labour I am afraid have as much economic credibility as Ed
>> Balls.
Economic credibility is a funny thing. If you put the Govt's policies forward without attribution they're still well recieved. If however you preface them with 'George Osborne says' they score less well than Labour's prefaced with 'Ed Balls says'.
George is in a hole and digging.
A government using monetary policy to reflate the economy while simultaneously defalting it with fiscal policy is left foot braking while right foot acceralrating.
And while Brown was a flawed leader, temperamentally unsuited to role, his work on the world stage in 2008 did much to manage through the worst bits of the banking crisis.
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Anyway, back to Cyprus. The deed is apparently not to be done, but irreparable damage has been done to confidence in the banking system.
When the banks reopen in Cyprus, who in his right mind would leave his life savings in them?
Who will ever lend money to Cyprus again?
The repercussions go far wider than Cyprus. Are you still fully confidant in our government's pledge to guarantee £85,000 ? Next time there is a Northern Rock style crisis, won't you want to go out and join the queue and get your money out sooner?
They (EU, Cyprus government?) must be completely bonkers to have even breathed this idea. They have recklessly endangered the entire precarious structure of banking trust and confidence, in Europe and possibly around the world.
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>> Who will ever lend money to Cyprus again?
The Russians. After the Cypriots have sold their inheritance to them.
>> The repercussions go far wider than Cyprus. Are you still fully confidant in our government's
>> pledge to guarantee £85,000 ?
Yes. They have previous of doing just that, (when it was a lower sum admittedly)
Next time there is a Northern Rock style crisis, won't
>> you want to go out and join the queue and get your money out sooner?
No because of above.
>> They (EU, Cyprus government?) must be completely bonkers to have even breathed this idea. They
>> have recklessly endangered the entire precarious structure of banking trust and confidence, in Europe and
>> possibly around the world.
Seems strange I know, banking is all about 'Trust" the system wont work or hold up without it. But its not quite so black and white.
They (the big Western banking economies) could easily let Cypriot banks fold. They are seen by other bank customers in the west as banana republic banks - Inevitable they fold from time to time. Take BCCI for example, UK Gov and Bank Inc were quite happy to see them fold. Desirable even, makes the big Western Banks look so much safer.....
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If I were the ECB I would let Cyprus go bust.
There will be minimal impact on anyone else - except the Russians.
It will serve as a lesson to others who need bailing out.
I suspect it could have been deliberately designed to fail as surely no-one could be so stupid as to propose the plan they did and expect it to work?
Last edited by: madf on Wed 20 Mar 13 at 10:00
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>>If I were the ECB I would let Cyprus go bust.
>>There will be minimal impact on anyone else.
Or, alternatively it will be domino number one toppling.
Every economy seems to be running on huge doses of wishful thinking.
The expectation that economic growth will miraculously pull us all out of the gargantuan deficits and debts with minimal austerity is, quite frankly, a joke.
Haircuts everywhere are required to re-jig the economies: political suicide however - even the tough old Tories won't dream of trimming pensions for the current recipients.
Must be the immigrants' fault.
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>> The expectation that economic growth will miraculously pull us all out of the gargantuan deficits
>> and debts with minimal austerity is, quite frankly, a joke.
MAy well be true but equally, austerity alone will not do the trick as by shrinking govt activity/welfare it further shrinks the economy and tax take. See Greece/Spain.
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>> austerity alone will not do the trick as by shrinking govt activity/welfare it further shrinks the economy and tax take.
Currently it can be argued that pensions, benefits, and public service workers' salaries are being (partially) paid out of borrowings.
Giving people money to then claw back 50% through NI, income tax, VAT, etc isn't very efficient.
It also means that by cutting spending by 10 billion, you only effectively improve the deficit by 5 billion.
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>>
>> Seems strange I know, banking is all about 'Trust" the system wont work or hold
>> up without it. But its not quite so black and white.
>>
>> They (the big Western banking economies) could easily let Cypriot banks fold.
>>
But paradoxically that wouldn't endanger trust in the banking system, rather the opposite. It would demonstrate that "bad" banks can fail and deserve to, but would reinforce confidence in our "good" banks.
But implanting the suspicion in people's minds that it is legitimate for a democratic government to help itself to 6% of someone's bank account undermines the whole basis of trust.
It doesn't matter whether the idea would be stupid or not, or whether you accept any deep parallels between Cyprus and the UK, the genie is out of the bottle. The idea has been floated, and the doubt planted - "Perhaps that could happen even here, to my money."
Look at the deep suspicion in the world of private pensions now, because of previous government actions. There is nothing that ordinary people now believe a government would not stoop to. Many of the wilder ideas have been sensibly scotched by professional commentators, but that hasn't stilled the fears.
Governments sow the suspicions of deception, and reap the consequences.
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>> The problem that the politicians have is they have bought votes and bribed countries to
>> buy our exports with borrowed money for years and payback time is rapidly approaching.
>>
It's called overseas aid!
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Growth and inflation would do it. Hard though.
Growth & Austerity? Not sure how that can be done.
Not that we need austerity so much as efficiency. Mind you, that wouldn't help growth either.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 20 Mar 13 at 12:40
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Anyone could cut the UK deficit to nil in 4 years with no growth.
Cut all - ALL UK Government funded salaries and benefits by 25%. (Not all at once). Includes state pensions.
Halve overseas aid.
Cut Legal Aid budget by half - only £1billion saved but.
No benefits to any newcomer to the UK without a record of paying tax and NIO for 5 years.
Politically unacceptable. At present.
NHS? Simple. Miss 2 appointments = go to end of queue. Self inflicted illness? Go to end of queue. Immigrants? See Benefits.
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>> Anyone could cut the UK deficit to nil in 4 years with no growth.
>>
>> Cut all - ALL UK Government funded salaries and benefits by 25%. (Not all at
>> once). Includes state pensions.
>>
>> Halve overseas aid.
>> Cut Legal Aid budget by half - only £1billion saved but.
>>
>>
>> No benefits to any newcomer to the UK without a record of paying tax and
>> NIO for 5 years.
>>
>>
>> Politically unacceptable. At present.
>>
>> NHS? Simple. Miss 2 appointments = go to end of queue. Self inflicted illness? Go
>> to end of queue. Immigrants? See Benefits.
On the benefits/salaries thing since the majority of OAPs and governmemt employees spend their cash (rather than saving/investing big chunks) only effect of a cut of that magnitude is to reduce tax base and increase welfare spend. Deficit gets bigger not smaller.
Legal aid is already cut to the core with far too many 'litigants in person' clogging up the civil courts and particulalry Tribunals. Do we want rape and murder supects defending themselves?
What's a self inflicted illness? You choose to drive knowing the risks and get injured in an accident. Is that self inflicted? The two appointments thing is already in place to a degree but if you push it too far it becomes mistake, hard cases and you or your own offspring which I doubt is what you intend. That's why it is and always will be politically unacceptable.
My fiver says several of the Welfare Cuts coming in next week will be reversed or eased when their impact on the 'deserving' turns up in MPs surgeries.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 20 Mar 13 at 13:21
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Bromp's answer above sums up nicely - and far more lucidly that I ever could :-) - why Labour as a political party will never ever solve the deficit.
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It's simple to cut the deficit. Just lop the appropriate amount off the spending of your favourite hobbyhorse department be that benefits, overseas aid, defence or the NHS.
The tricky bit is not to wreck the economy at the same time.
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The Irish cut salaries and benefits by between 10 and 25%.
After three years of pain, it worked.
The Germans paid for rebuilding the East by cutting salaries and benefits in the West and extending working age before retirement. My cousin was one: it caused a great deal of pain at the time...
Worked in the long term...
Spending money on benefits year after year without creating jobs is a waste of money.
As for wrecking the economy,, see Greece and Cyprus as a lesson of how to do it. Just keep borrowing money to pay for benefits and a bolshie and workshy Government.
Last edited by: madf on Wed 20 Mar 13 at 15:06
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The UK's debt is rising by £446,575,342 per day.
And debt doesn't just disappear.
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>> And debt doesn't just disappear.
Au contraire:
Creditors can get 'haircuts' and debtors get a 'comb-over'.
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The loss that the Greek Government incurred from hosting the Olympics has not helped
tinyurl.com/bu67pow
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>> The Irish cut salaries and benefits by between 10 and 25%.
>>
>> After three years of pain, it worked.
>>
Not from the perspective of my brother in law who lives in Cork it's not.
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That's probably at least partly due to Ireland living even more of a pipe-dream of pretend growth than us through the 90s and early 00s.
The established economies are learning that you can't continuously improve lifestyles without backing it up with improved efficiency and productivity.
Even harder now that we appear not to be screwing the Third World over as much as we used to economically.
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I estimate that UK living standards are about 15% too high for the economic capacity of the country to support.
Anyone who thinks we can grow our way out of it is either seriously deluded .... or Ed Balls.
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"I estimate that UK living standards are about 15% too high for the economic capacity of the country to support."
Whose living standards - yours , mine - city bankers', the disabled, the poor, the 80 year old widow down the road?
Most people advocating swinging cuts expect them to be applied to someone else.
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Mine are about 600% too high for my economy to support.
It's a miracle!
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>> Most people advocating swinging cuts expect them to be applied to someone else.
>>
>>
>>
As does everyone advocating tax increases.
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>> "I estimate that UK living standards are about 15% too high for the economic capacity
>> of the country to support."
>>
>> Whose living standards - yours , mine - city bankers', the disabled, the poor, the
>> 80 year old widow down the road?
>>
>> Most people advocating swinging cuts expect them to be applied to someone else.
>>
>>
>
If I recall I suggested cutting pensions by some 25%,
I am an OAP...
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So far as I know, if the State Pension was cut, many people would get the loss replaced by an equivalent increase in Tax Credits to make their overall income made up to a Government decreed minimum overall weekly income.
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>> So far as I know, if the State Pension was cut, many people would get
>> the loss replaced by an equivalent increase in Tax Credits to make their overall income
>> made up to a Government decreed minimum overall weekly income.
>>
I assume madf would propose that these be cut as well. This sort of thing is easy to propose but effectively it would condemn millions of the most vulnerable in our society to a miserable existence. UK state pensions are hardly generous.
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>> I am an OAP...
And presumably an OAP with other means of support; means test the pension?
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Isn't means testing any benefit expensive?
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>> Isn't means testing any benefit expensive?
Indeedy.
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The heating allowence benefit springs to mind. There was some fuss a few years ago made about giving it to expats in spain and that they shouldn't get it. A review was done and it was cheaper to just give everybody rather than set up all the means testing mechanisms.
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Peeps still need to heat their homes in the Med during the Winter months, many use leccie which is damn expensive, the older Villas are made to keep out the heat during the Summer but they are akin to a cold storage facility at times, especially if they are inland.
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My point was more to the cost of means testing rather than the heating costs in spain.
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This info is 5 years old but the last comment, re Greece, could be seen as the writing on the wall!
Aon found the value of Britain's state pension for a single person is 30.8% of the average wage. This figure is 32.5% in Ireland, 39.9% in Germany and 51.2% in France. Greece pays the most generous state pension at 95.7%.
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My state pension - including some SERPS is £8101.08 per year. SWMBO has her own - thankfully - of £5715.84 per year. Not huge amounts by any standards. My private and work pensions bring us up to a little over £16k per year.
Riches beyond the dreams of avarice, eh?
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Well, being it's a bit quiet here so far, and Zero has gorn AWOL, I thought I'd repost this from Ian and Mary on the expat-in-Spain forum:
"What an amazing and interesting thread this has been. I have just read the whole thing through. I have strong agreements with some parts and strong disagreements with others, at times from the same poster. However on the voting issue, I take my right to cast my vote, fought for long and hard by ordinary folk last century, as a civic responsibility and make it my business to cast that vote at every opportunity. Should, in the land of Utopia, every eligible voter take that view then all politicians would have to take a very different stance to that which is prevalent today and that being Britain actually is a totalitarian one-party State. I am not a party member of any party but perhaps on the side of a Peoples' Republic with a certain deeply held conscience towards my fellow man and a fervent believer in the principles of the Bill of Rights negotiated by the Levellers at a small Putney church. Putting that aside, I adopt the stance at elections that no politician will ever do me or mine any good and try to work out which one will do me the least harm, casting my vote in that direction.
However, whilst I am truly in favour of a properly run European Economic Community and Free Trade Area, in an atmosphere of true co-operation I am bitterly opposed to the European Union and totally Eurosceptic in the current situation. Britain is NOT innocent in all this by a very long way and does harm those citizens that speak along these lines. I have worked for the EU in the early nineties and responsible for a couple of large technical research projects (EU funded) and the budgets. Large sums of money were "disappearing from the budgets and I was the fool that stood up and was counted blowing the whistle. This money was disappearing into a blackhole within the British Establishment without a doubt, then the persecution started (once the Metropolitan Police held the case) and was unrelenting for over 6 years and we are allowed even now (ten years afterwards) only to bump along the bottom. My family is under the protection of another nation outside the EU. At one stage our lives were threatened by State agencies, I was denied access to medical care and with health broken , career broken, business in ruins we were forced out of two homes. I don't want sympathy, I am not brave or courageous but just stood up to do the right thing. But be aware Britain is probably the most corrupt evil country in the EU, it is just that it all is done in a "nice" "gentlemanly" "public school" way. In its turn that makes this country even more dishonest than the rest put together. This incident was made even worse when a Scotsman was appointed head of what became OLAF (previously Anti Fraud Administration) whose sole purpose in life was not to prosecute fraud but to protect the gravy train particularly amongst the British Establishment. Bitter? Yes! Unbowed? No!
You think Cyprus was a one off? Think again, that was only the opening salvo of stripping you and I of all we own and forcing us into abject poverty. We all need to wake up and smell the coffee FAST!"
Reply from Mary:
"Well, not knowing the detail of what happened I can't make a worthwhile comment on your post apart from stating that I am in favour of an EU but not this one.
But it evoked a memory of a day back in the late 1980s/early 90s, can't remember exactly, when we had Janey Buchan, the MEP for Glasgow, as a dinner guest at our house. Her husband was Norman Buchan, Labour M.P.
Some of the things she related about EU funds and budgets seemed to us at the time a trifle OTT.....But as years passed and more was revealed we began to understand that whatever its intention, the EU as it is now is a fundamentally corrupt organisation with zero accountability to the poor ignorant mugs aka European taxpayers who fund this huge bureaucracy".
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>> and Zero has gorn AWOL
Has he? Was here yesterday.
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Took the hump over one of his posts being edited I think.
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>> Took the hump over one of his posts being edited I think.
>>
Yes, a sensitive soul, Plenty of bluster but must have led a sheltered life. :-)
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I am surprised anyone who posts on here is "sensitive",
I can recommend rhino skin extract.
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I'm sensitive. And delicate.
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>> I'm sensitive. And delicate.
>>
very true..
Best cooked slowly over an open fire and marinaded with marmalade and red wine. Served lightly crisped..
Yum yum.
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What kind of scary-ars e dinner parties do you go to?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 21 Mar 13 at 13:45
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>> I am surprised anyone who posts on here is "sensitive",
>>
>>
>> I can recommend rhino skin extract.
>>
Its illegal to import.
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Been busy,
Apparently it wasn't "edited" or "deleted", no mods admit to doing it and "would I care to re-post it"
Apparently stuff just "disappears into the ether" on here I was told.
What a load of old pony.
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>> "would I care to re-post it"
Well, go on. We all want to see how tame you can be when you try.
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I dunno what happened Zero - I certainly didn't remove it (or anything for that matter) - what you told me that you posted didn't strike me as deletable. I provoked the discussion - sorry.
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Could we have two medium Four Seasons and two Diet Cokes please Rob while you're on?
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Deep Fried for Humph, and an Irn Bru.
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And bring a spare drivers door mirror for the Cashcow, glue must be nearly dry now so about due for another clout with a flamboyant Trannie!?..;)
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>> What a load of old pony.
The horsemeat thread is elsewhere ;)
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And ... there's more:
"I think anyone with even half a brain cell can see that tying varying strength economies together to a single currency is fraught with problems and at a basic level just does not work. A country with a strong economy like Germany, needs a strong currency, whereas a weak economy like Spain needs a weak one. Tying them together simply produces a tug of war with Germany pulling it in their direction and Spain pulling it in the opposite direction with a result that doesn't favour or help either country.
The EU finance ministers see and understand this themselves, but just like the deceitful and disingenuous UK Politicians also understand that to change it effectively means destroying their own power base and given that turkeys don't generally vote for Christmas are somewhat loathe to do anything about it. So, instead as the cracks appear, which they will, they simply try and plaster over them with unsustainable solutions which merely put off the inevitable, presumably for some other poor sucker to have to sort out and in the meantime they continue with their whopping salaries and pension benefits and just hope the cracks don't appear again during their tenure.
So what's the answer? Get rid of the country pushing the Euro up so high that is causing the weaker EU economies to struggle. That country of course is Germany.
Whoa I hear you say, surely it's Germany that's underwriting and guaranteeing almost the whole of the EU's money supply? Indeed it is, but to understand how, you need to follow the money trail and see just how it has grown and strengthened Germanys economy.
Germany has played the same neat little trick that banks have on their customers. And here's how it works.
Germany is a very strong engineering and manufacturing country, it produces some of the worlds most popular, reliable and desirable brands such as BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche in the car market and Bosch, Siemens, AEG etc in the consumer goods market.
So how do people in a weaker economic, lower standard of living countries like Spain afford these luxury German brands? More often than not they'll borrow money to buy them. Where do they borrow from? Banks. Where do the Banks get that money from? The Spanish Central Bank, where does that get it from? The European Central Bank and where does that get it from (when it's not printing it)? Germany.
Germany lends/guarantees money loans to the ECB to effectively finance the purchase of its own exports. Rinse and repeat that cycle a few times and you can see how Germany's economy has grown so strong, but has also exposed itself to quite large loans to the EU which it is now getting worried will never be repaid.
The nifty little consumer lending trick is no longer working quite as well as it once did and less money is flowing into the German coffers via exports which is the reason Frau Merkel is now stamping her little foot up and down insisting that the EU force smaller EU economies to raise more of their own money rather than relying on EU bailout money. Now of course that it isn't in Germanys interest to do so.
So, the upshot is, get rid of Germany, let the euro fall to wherever it needs to on the currency markets so these weaker economies like Spain can start exporting more of their own products, raise productivity and bring in more money than has recently been flowing out.
Painful in the short to medium term, but the only sustainable long term answer for these weaker economies to start growing again".
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Dog that article is complete gibberish...
1. "I think anyone with even half a brain cell can see that tying varying strength economies together to a single currency is fraught with problems and at a basic level just does not work"
So the unification of East and West Germany did not work.?
And the USA does not work?
And the UK does not work?
Spherical objects.
2."So what's the answer? Get rid of the country pushing the Euro up so high that is causing the weaker EU economies to struggle. That country of course is Germany."
BS> The Euro is grossly undervalued due to the weaker EU countries. If they(the weaker countries) left the EC, the Euro would strengthen. One of the major reasons for the strength of German exports is the weakness of the Euro allowing Germany a major price advantage.
3. The reason why Greece, Italy and France struggle is because they let their labour costs rise. whilst at the same time Germany reduced its costs through austerity after reunification.
(See France and Hollande's crazy policies...)
Moronic analysis when they can't get their facts right.
Last edited by: madf on Thu 21 Mar 13 at 16:32
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>> Dog that article is complete gibberish...
Disagree.
>> So the unification of East and West Germany did not work.?
It worked because they unified. Taxpayer money has been redistributed (not lent) to the region formerly in East Germany.
>> And the USA does not work?
Ditto. They are the same country. Wealth is transferred internally.
>>
>> And the UK does not work?
Ditto again. Separate Scotland and tie it to sterling? It will be uncompetitive and unsustainable, just like the economies of Spain, Greece, Portugal etc tied to Germany's currrency.
>> Spherical objects.
Yours I'm afraid. You don't understand it, or choose not to perhaps, since you seem intelligent. Are you trolling a bit? No offence.
I'm finding difficult to add comments point by point because you don't quote properly and your comments are mixed with Dog's.
Separating the currencies (the chucking Germany out part) would work, until other euro countries got out of step with each other.
The real answer is EITHER to go back to separate currencies and retain fiscal independence, OR become, politically, one country or 'United Sates of Europe' so that wealth is transferred internally between regions.
I thought we'd all accepted long ago that you can't sustain fiscal union without political union? Since nobody but an idiot would think you can, I infer that the people who did it were committed to that political union even though they had no explicit mandate for it.
Crooks.
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>>
>> It worked because they unified. Taxpayer money has been redistributed (not lent) to the region formerly in East Germany.
>>
>> I thought we'd all accepted long ago that you can't sustain fiscal union without political
>> union? Since nobody but an idiot would think you can, I infer that the people
>> who did it were committed to that political union even though they had no explicit
>> mandate for it.
>>
>> Crooks.
>>
My view too. Either you go the whole nine yards with a common currency or you don't bother at all.
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The trouble is the current Eurozone model doesnt quite work but to make it work it requires unification on a level that the people of some of the countries involved wouldnt like.
Truth is under unification Germany will be steering the ship and one thing that austerity in the southern euro states has shown is that the people REALLY dont like being told what to do by Germany. The Germans also only believe in unity until it gets to the point where they end up subsidising everyone else and euroscepticism is the result.
Merkel couldnt just bung Cyprus a bag of cash because she has elections coming up, but Im not sure Cyprus really cares about her domestic issues.
Unification sounds wonderful in theory, but you need to take the people with you and by the looks of it, at times the rest of the Eurozone has decided not to forget the historical German tendancy for taking things over.
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>>9 Meters RR !
Would it be pedantic to say 8.2296 metres?
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 21 Mar 13 at 17:52
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>> 9 Meters RR !
>>
>>
Would that be gas or electric meters Rob?
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It's easy to blame Germany.
BUT they stuck to the rules = deficits 3% of GDP, cut wages at home.
No-one else did.
To blame them when it goes tits up is like blaming the police for all the criminals they catch..
That article is rubbish. It started of by deciding it was all Germany's fault and writing a narrative to suit it.
Last edited by: madf on Thu 21 Mar 13 at 18:08
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>>BUT they stuck to the rules = deficits 3% of GDP, cut wages at home.
No-one else did.<<
Nobody else was ever going to and only the blinkered thought they would, that is the biggest joke of all.
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Some get it!
For a financial union to work there has to be full federal political union.
Some of you are OK with political union, some are not.
I'm not - so for me, all else follows.
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Going to lock this for a new volume in a couple of minutes....(in case I'm accused of stifling debates :-) )
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>>Dog that article is complete gibberish...
I'm only the messenger of course madf, although I am in the pro EEC anti-EU camp.
If anyone wants to follow the quite interesting replies to that earlier "I think anyone with even half a brain cell" post:
www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/146742-cyprus-shock-horror-12.html today 5.40pm
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@madf, Thu 21 Mar 13 18:07
>> It's easy to blame Germany.
>> BUT they stuck to the rules = deficits 3% of GDP, cut wages at home.
Actually, madf, Germany didn't.
I refer you to the BBC analysis, www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16290598
"But actually Germany - along with Italy - was the first big country to break the 3% rule."
(my emphasis)
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Cyprus Bailout Volume 2 - Londoner
