Someone well known to me, an enthusiast a lot younger than me but far better than I am at buying and selling cars, has recently acquired a Subaru which is cosmetically and mechanically more or less immaculate, but whose turbo blew with seized bearings on the drive home. He is a restrained, sympathetic driver and assures me he had not been giving it a bit of foot to see how it went. The car has had most things done recently, suspension bushes, brakes etc., with bills to prove it. It is a 90,000 mile car though and the turbo is known to be a weak point. Was he just unlucky, or might the seller have let his friends have a go in it while it was on Ebay resulting in cooked bearings? No way we will ever know now.
A new unit will cost a pretty penny. It has titanium rotor blades, lightweight, strong as steel, extremely high melting point, ideal for turbo rotors but very expensive in itself and very expensive to work or machine. The new owner is toying with the idea of a slightly used turbo but I don't think it's a good idea. Of course I wouldn't have bought a used turbo car myself in the first place, being old, doddering and timid. But I approve of him doing it and share his grief.
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My first thought would be whether the turbo had taken anything else with it.
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>> whether the turbo had taken anything else with it.
What, chunks of titanium in the engine? I don't think so. If it was that sort of kablooie he would have noticed and told me.
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>> >> whether the turbo had taken anything else with it.
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>> What, chunks of titanium in the engine? I don't think so. If it was that
>> sort of kablooie he would have noticed and told me.
There's probably a lot to be said for finding a marque specialist. My thoughts would be of related faults (e.g. EGR valve) or oil starvation possibly as a result of obstructed oil feeds that might have contributed to failure of the turbo, or collateral damage like oil or bits of metal in the intercooler that could affect performance anyway or, worse, end up in the engine.
I don't know is any of this is likely or possible on a Subaru but I'd want to be dealing with somebody who does. I suspect some repeat turbo failures are due to the underlying problem or resultant damage not being fixed when the turbo is replaced.
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Probably get an exchange one won't he ? Driving my first non-turbo car in years, I have to say I miss a little boost. The 335i BMW petrol engine with a twin-turbo set up must be a gem.
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He is a restrained, sympathetic driver and assures me he had not been giving it a bit of foot to see how it went.
That restraint - or rather, someone else's - may have been the origin of the problem. When Mrs Beest's been pootling the S60 round Reading for a couple of weeks its turbo gets sticky and starts producing 'Engine Service Required' messages when asked to work hard. Once I get hold of it again, a bit of judicious booting - fourth gear seems to work better than third for this - gets it spinning happily. In fact - fingers crossed, and damaged mirror notwithstanding - it's sounding better now than it has for a couple of years. A well-sorted turbo is a fine thing.
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All makes of car will suffer the odd turbo failure, of course. However, judging by the internet forums, and personal experience, BMW turbos seem more prone to break than most.
You might say that BMWs tend to be driven in a spirited manner (or thrashed even), and that this is what causes the failures. However, my own style is rather gentle(*) and the turbo on my car blew at under 80K miles.
It won't put me off getting another BMW to replace the Audi when it's time to change cars, though. :-)
(*) confirmed by the dealer, who said that I got unusual long life from other consumables such as tyres, brake disks & pads, etc.
[Edit] Seen WdB's post. No, my gentle style did not contribute to the turbo failure, due to it getting good workouts on the motorway.
Last edited by: Londoner on Sat 12 Jan 13 at 16:16
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He should be able to get an exchange unit from a specialist like Turbo Technics. Should be cheaper than buying a new one, and it will be just as good, if not better.
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Yep, as Corax suggests, TT would be my first port of call.
Being gentle or not with a petrol turbo wouldn't make a great deal of difference IMO, what will shorten its life without a doubt is long distance oil changes and or not using a high quality real fully synthetic oil, and turning that hot running engine off without allowing it to tick over for a few minutes to cool the spinner will kill it off for sure.
Lots of Scooby's run turbo timers (timer keeps the engine running for a few minutes after locking and leaving), and many owners splash out on Millers full sythnetic 10w60 oil, the chap who rebuilt my lads RA engine (who also rallies Scoobs) to produce some serious power swears by that Millers, it kept the lads engine together which was no small feat.
Easy DIY job to change the blower by the way.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 12 Jan 13 at 19:05
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>> Lots of Scooby's run turbo timers (timer keeps the engine running for a few minutes
>> after locking and leaving),
>>
Now that explains why I saw an unattended Subaru in a Tesco car park with the engine running before it suddenly switched itself off!
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>>
>> >> Lots of Scooby's run turbo timers (timer keeps the engine running for a few
>> minutes
>> >> after locking and leaving),
>> >>
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>> Now that explains why I saw an unattended Subaru in a Tesco car park with
>> the engine running before it suddenly switched itself off!
>>
All highly illegal of course and I will be repoting him to the highest orfority forfwiv.
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>>Easy DIY job to change the blower by the way<<
For a competent DIYer with a good selection of tools.
^_^
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This problem when it breaks is that it sometimes throws bits into the intercooler. If any bits are missing from the turbo then the intercooler MUST be removed and any spare bits of vanes etc taken out, otherwise they will be sucked in when the new turbo is fitted with consequential results...turbos are not necessarily inherently fragile.
I had a used turbo fitted to one of my cars by a marque specialist who I trusted, and it wasn't any issue. He sourced, and vouched for, the unit, and it made a world of difference to the car - it spooled up quicker and generally drove so much better. Don't discount it if the price of a new one is a concern.
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As someone who normally buys privately, at 5 or 6 years old, buying a car with a turbo does concern me. Hence my penchant for the normally aspirated BMW 3.0 6 cyl.
I would love a 6yo 335 petrol for my next car (when they are sub £10k) but the thought of two turbo's to go wrong gives me the colywobbles.
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>> As someone who normally buys privately, at 5 or 6 years old, buying a car
>> with a turbo does concern me. Turbo's to go wrong gives me the colywobbles.
>>
Not really a problem these days, if of course the car has been looked after. My first Saab still had the original turbo at 9 years old, and 6 years in my ownership taking it from 70k-ish to 172k (it was smoking a little, hence the preemptive strike with a used replacement referred to in my previous post).
I have taken my current Saab 9-5 Aero (8.5 years old, 6 years in my ownership) from 71k to currently 189k, it still has the original turbo fitted, with no smoke or other issues. With both of them, I always changed the oil and filter every 6,000 miles rather than the manufacturer-recommended 12k/18k - back to the recent "Do enthusiasts know better" thread! I have always used fully synth Mobil 1 oil, 0W30 when the cars were younger, moving to 5W30 when the 0W30 became difficult to get hold of, and for the last 3 changes Shell Helix Ultra 5W40. And of course genuine Saab filters.
But I DO use the not insignificant performance on a regular basis, and ONLY when warm, AND I let it simmer when I pull off the autobahn.
Last edited by: Mike H on Sun 13 Jan 13 at 08:20
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As noted above BMW Diesels suffer regular turbo trouble, the approved used 320 in the family went west @ 45k miles which seems to be the normal interval, replaced under warranty, the main dealer also claimed to have replaced the troublesome early engine breather with the upgrade at the same time but that turned out to be a lie when the inlet manifold swirl flaps were removed @ around 80k miles when it was found to be the old sort that blocked and changed.
The car had previously been serviced as per schedule which meant someting like 15k between oil changes.
Once warranty was out @50k the car was serviced properly with around 6k intervals with Millers or Fuchs oils, and it was allowed to cool a bit before shutdown, low and behold it was still on that second blower @120k when sold.
I'm convinced that ridiculous service intervals coupled with unsympathetic driving is causing the increasing number of failures (ignoring Fords poor oil supply design on Focus Diesels) in modern designs, the posts here who have long trouble free lifespans confirm this.
Notice that responsible Japanese makers haven't gone down the starship mileage oil service intervals route, and don't feature heavily in reports of early failures.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 13 Jan 13 at 09:42
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>> Notice that responsible Japanese makers haven't gone down the starship mileage oil service intervals route
Mitsubishi extended the Shogun 3.2TD service intervals from 9,000 to 12,500 miles.
This did coincide with enlarging to sump to 9.8 litres though...
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>> This did coincide with enlarging to sump to 9.8 litres though...
9.8 litres? Jesus, Mary and Joseph, thats so much oil you would need a North Sea rig as a dipstick.
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>>9.8 litres? Jesus, Mary and Joseph, thats so much oil you would need a North Sea rig as a dipstick.
My Almera takes 2.6 Litres IIRC. Means I can, just about, get away with a can every couple of years.
I do around 4K a year now.
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>> Notice that responsible Japanese makers haven't gone down the starship mileage oil service intervals route,
>> and don't feature heavily in reports of early failures.
Honda's CTDi engines can suffer turbo failure, but you do have to wonder about the oil change intervals on those. Exhaust manifold cracking too, and they're not particularly economical. You'd have to have a love affair with torque not to choose one of the bombproof petrols instead.
That poor oil supply on Focus diesels GB. Is that more the 1.6 than the 2.0? I remember Workshop Tech on HJ saying that the 1.6 tends to get dirty very quickly with subsequent early turbo failure due to a blocked oil feed pipe. The 2.0 is better in this regard for some reason, though it wouldn't make me want one.
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>> That poor oil supply on Focus diesels GB. Is that more the 1.6 than the
>> 2.0? I remember Workshop Tech on HJ saying that the 1.6 tends to get dirty
>> very quickly with subsequent early turbo failure due to a blocked oil feed pipe. The
>> 2.0 is better in this regard for some reason, though it wouldn't make me want
>> one.
Thats the One C, and be careful what you say about Ford the God of Cars here, you'll end up getting funny comments..;)
''This did coincide with enlarging to sump to 9.8 litres though... ''
Thats interesting Lygonos, i'd hazard a guess the filters a big lump of a thing too not teacup sized as many now seem to be.
I wonder if any car/4x4 makers have got round to spinner filtering systems yet as with HGV's.
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>>Honda's CTDi engines can suffer turbo failure, but you do have to wonder about the oil change intervals on those.
I ran one in a CRV to just under 100,000 without signs of problems. The standard interval is 12,500 miles, and I did oil changes at mid-interval.
The Outlander services are 9,000, but that reflects the DPF burn off process that dilutes the oil with diesel. It's just had its second service and I will now start with the halfway oil changes.
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>> I ran one in a CRV to just under 100,000 without signs of problems. The
>> standard interval is 12,500 miles, and I did oil changes at mid-interval.
Sorry, I should have made that clearer. Not the manufacturer oil change interval, more the treatment of owners - maybe missing oil changes amongst other things.
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Just out of interest the Hilux had the usual 9k service intervals with a 7.5 litre sump, that interval was the same in Oz on kms, so roughly 6k miles.
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>> That poor oil supply on Focus diesels GB. Is that more the 1.6 than the
>> 2.0? I remember Workshop Tech on HJ saying that the 1.6 tends to get dirty
>> very quickly with subsequent early turbo failure due to a blocked oil feed pipe. The
>> 2.0 is better in this regard for some reason, though it wouldn't make me want
>> one.
>>
I have a Volvo V50 2.0D which is going strong at 176,000 whereas my BiL had a 1.6 HDI Berlingo that had the turbo die at just over 100,000, a replacement S/h unit he fitted followed it soon after and he ended up scrapping the car.
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>> I have a Volvo V50 2.0D which is going strong at 176,000
TJ, would this be the older four cylinder 2.0? Did you have to replace the DPF? I've heard that this is part of the service around 100k at a cost of £900. Ouch.
Apart from this, has the car been up to expectations?
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Mine has no DPF so don't have to worry there. I got the car 2 years ago with 106,000. It had already had the DMF and clutch done. I had the cambelt done at 144,000. Since then the only non service items/consumables have been a front wheel bearing, front suspension bushes and the intercooler. So all in all I would say not too bad.
Also have a V40 1.9d with the Renault engine, which Mrs J uses which has done 206.000 again with no massive bills.
Good info on the Volvo forums www.volvoforums.org.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=58
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BMW's turbo issues are probably something to do with their ludicrous service intervals. My 320d is on the same oil it left the factory with at 17,000 miles, and is still 2,900 miles off its first oil change according to the computer.
I don't care what the marketing people say, this is plain bad for a turbo engine. It will be the second or third owner's problem I guess. Not BMWs anyway.
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>> I don't care what the marketing people say, this is plain bad for a turbo
>> engine. It will be the second or third owner's problem I guess.
I suspect you might be visiting the garage before then...
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>> I suspect you might be visiting the garage before then...
>>
And I suspect that you are right. :-)
BMW's "Condition Based Servicing" (CBS) is not just bad for turbos.
I had a long chat with a mechanic at a BMW dealership once about CBS. He didn't think much of it, but told me that the fleets liked it. They save money, and have disposed of the car to the next mug who can pick up the problems caused by skimped servicing.
As a private buyer, I agreed my own service routine with the dealer, with more frequent oil changes. Apart from the turbo, the car ran like new throughout the time that I had it.
BTW, I tried getting Audi to agree to different service intervals, but they just shout "Warranty!" and won't have it.
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>>BTW, I tried getting Audi to agree to different service intervals, but they just shout "Warranty!" and won't have it.
Why on earth wouldn't they agree to additional servicing at your cost?
Ah - got it. They think the more they mess about with it, the more likely it is to go wrong. I had a dealer like that once!
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>> BTW, I tried getting Audi to agree to different service intervals, but they just shout
>> "Warranty!" and won't have it.
I simply slipped a half mileage DIY service in using a genuine filter and better than they used oil.
The attitude you encountered would see me going out the door never to return.
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I am told that the turbo in question (OP) is a rare thing fitted to a very small number of examples and unlikely to be available on exchange from TT or the like. Phased impeller or exhaust geometry ... something like that, to ensure good turbo boost at low revs... might be more complicated to fit as a result. No standard kit available.
We will see. Watch this space.
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What subaru is it AC? Has he tried ringing TT? Even if they didn't have that type, they would be able to rebuild his originals.
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>>Phased impeller or exhaust geometry ... something like that, to ensure good
>> turbo boost at low revs...
Is that similar to the variable vane turbos fitted to most diesels?
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My last seven cars have had turbochargers, most of them had very high mileages on. Never had a single problem with a turbo on any of them - I put it down to being careful with servicing, oil change at least every 6k without fail, and (usually!) allowing the engine at least 30 seconds of running when I stop. The engines get good use, plenty of making progress :)
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>> I simply slipped a half mileage DIY service in using a genuine filter and better
>> than they used oil.
I used to do the same on my Scenic. 18,000 mile oil changes were heavily implicated in the premature demise of turbochargers on the 1.9 F9Q dCi engines.
My car had endless problems at 62k, but had not even a hint of the turbo whine that signalled one of these engines was starting to think about lunching its turbo.
The turbos on my old Golf GTI 1.8T and Volvo S60 2.0T were original and perfectly healthy at 140 and 150k respectively. Both had had oil changes every 10k from new.
Last edited by: DP on Mon 14 Jan 13 at 10:55
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Its so simple and relatively cheap to do DP, certainly when compared with the results of not doing so, blowed if i can work out why people who intend to keep their cars don't practise it.
Is there a common theme developing here, follow the makers high mileage fleet sales service intervals at your apres warranty peril?
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 14 Jan 13 at 10:57
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>> I suspect you might be visiting the garage before then...
>>
Hope not, although there is a little list for the first service. It's going to be a bit more than an oil change.
Cars are becoming like appliances. No user serviceable parts inside, and an increasing detachment of users from the engineering under the skin. I suspect a lot of people couldn't tell you why an oil change is even required at all, let alone why 18-20,000 miles+ is too long between them.
Last edited by: DP on Mon 14 Jan 13 at 11:53
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Turbo's need fresh clean oil to work correctly, seized bearings come from lack of clean oil ie: late or no oil changes or poor quality oil.
That said car at 90k will have had the back side thrashed out of it from cold at a few stages in it's life doing the blower no good at all and then shut down while the turbo bearings are still spooling down to a stop as they do this the oil is stopped as the engine is switched off.
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I find it difficult to believe turbos can be switched of whilst still red hot - at least in 99% of normal driving.
After all you cannot just drive off a motorway and stop dead.. you have a slip road even to services usually 0.25miles long and with a 20mph limit.
And how many people drive up 1 in 3 hills? Apart from a few in Wales or Northern Scotland.
Most car engines die from neglect and skipped servicing... judging by the scrapyards..
True there are some muppets.. But they are just that.. idiots . Many end up killing themselves - or others.
Last edited by: madf on Wed 16 Jan 13 at 14:16
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A car like the above are taken to track days and thrashed by the young lads who know no better but can drive at full pelt around the track then come back to pit lane and turn the key off without knowing no better.
It should be left to spool down or driven at a slower speed for a short bit to let it slow down and feed those bearings of the much needed fresh oil.
If i was buying a car of that type it must be cheap or have a full service history with receipts to back it up. Its a rally car afterall detuned for the road a tiny bit.
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Turbochargers: fragile, or abused? - Bromptonaut
