Like many other BR's I visit other car forums from time to time, I've read quite a few contributors suggesting other users move away from manufactures recommendations regarding servicing and in particular the grade of oil that should be used.
I've been in the belief that oil makers and manufactures have spent many a few quid in research for the best grade of oil for the type of engine used, for instance, my 2L PD engine has always had a diet of 5w-30w (Castrol Edge or SLX III as it used to be), but I've seen that some drivers are recommending a different grade (5w-40w).
Will this make a real difference? and if so will that be good or bad
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OH GAWD. Not a bloomin' oil thread!
In a word; no, in modern cars, so long as you don't deviate too far from the manufacturer's spec. At least not under what most of us would call "normal" useage.
Mess with oils on vintage vehicles at your peril though.
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>> OH GAWD. Not a bloomin' oil thread!
>> Mess with oils on vintage vehicles at your peril though.
Nahhh, any old 20W/50 slop will do in the old 'uns. Modern 16v turbo engines MUST have the manufacturer's specific synthetic oil to VW / Ford / GM standard*, 'cos of the tolerances.
*delete as appropriate ;)
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>>
>> Nahhh, any old 20W/50 slop will do in the old 'uns.
Non-detergent SAE 50 in the 45 (and all other old Harleys) unless you fancy rebuilding the bottom end. Roller bearing engine, see, relies on volume rather than pressure. That's one reason why I distrust Haynes' books of lies, they recommend Castrol 20/50 for Ironhead Sportsters; I followed their advice and it cost me a crank. Stuck to straight 50 ever since and never had any more problems.
To an extent you are right, but I did say you shouldn't move TOO far from the manufacturer's spec. And if you're going to hammer the motor on a regular basis, stands to reason you put the right stuff in.
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OK sorry guys didn't mean to stir up an old topic, but it worries me when I visit my other regular forum and see contributors giving advice to new car owners that they should move onto a different grade of oil because in their 'opinion' the manufactures have got it wrong and a change will improve the longevity of the engine when quite possible the opposite could be true.
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In my experience, enthusiasts often do know better.
Not talking specifically about oil, but preventative maintenance generally - there's a chap on the forums I frequent who has done 300,000+ miles in the same model car as me, and several who do their own maintenance.
As a chartered engineer myself, I've often been able to help people diagnose issues - when the owners have not been getting anywhere with their local dealer. In part this is because after a while you get to know the weak spots on a car, and what needs to be done to fix/avoid the problem.
Manufacturers often have a different agenda to the person who wants to keep their car for years. Otherwise we'd have more manufacturers recommending gearbox oil changes, instead of 'sealed for life', for example. So for example, if you heard from a series of people that the auto gearbox failed at around 120k, would you not consider an oil change every 60k?
Returning to oil, it's possible that manufacturers are more interested in getting flattering mpg and cost-per-mile over the first 80,000 miles, than in long-term durability. All my cars get oil changes every 5k-10k.
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The "All the gear, no idea" amateur in a shed is bound to know more than a manufacturer that has spent millions on design, development, and research. Be it which oil and how often, which end to put new tyres, how to polish your chassis, or which headlamp bulbs to use. :-)
I do agree with Tigger though, the manufacturers have little interest in long term durability, they want to sell you a new car, or parts at a huge mark up which make repair uneconomic.
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Strictly, a non detergent oil is a low detergent oil I think, but yes, you don't mix low with high detergent oils.
If you put high detergent oil (all modern regular oils are) in an engine that has had low detergent oil, you clean off any deposits and block oil ways with lumps.
For Vintage and Veteran cars, if you know where to go, easily obtained, my last gallon was even cheap at a show.
As said earlier, low detergent oils are usually for roller and ball bearing cranks, white metal I think is high detergent and shell bearings definitely. Total loss oil engines are usually low detergent too.
My JAP LTOW in the Morgan SS Aero runs on straight 50, which is thicker than recommended in period but I also over oil as oil is cheap - rebuilds aren't. I guess I may lose a bit of power from doing this but not much, and the engine - some of which is over 80 years old may last longer.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Mon 31 Dec 12 at 09:36
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I really want to believe that the manufacturers have done extensive testing on every aspect of a car, including oil, tyres etc.
But I keep coming across designs which should never have left the design computer and realise that maybe the testing wasn't that extensive after all.
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Oh it was, but the bean counters rule, not the engineers.
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>> Oh it was, but the bean counters rule, not the engineers.
>>
Like Ford's CVT gearbox placed in a car with the engine's max torque 10% higher than the gearbox rating?
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>> Like Ford's CVT gearbox placed in a car with the engine's max torque 10% higher
>> than the gearbox rating?
Not the one where they've been no help whatsoever to owners who find they have all but scrap cars on their driveways, or something approaching £4k to find to replace because no parts are available...:-)
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When I look at the oil makers (sorry to harp back to oil) they seem to make claims for their products which sometimes don't equate to what I'm being told by enthusiasts is best practice, the data sheets for my type of oil claim that they are 'good' for up to 30K miles, and yet I'm being told that if I want my engine to last any length of time then I should change it every 5-6K miles, who do I go with? the R&D department of a multimillion pound oil company or the guy who hangs onto the idea that more frequent changes on a new car will always be better (or a bit in-between?).
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If you really want to know you could contact an independent lab and ask for a test kit, extract some oil from your engine at say 7k miles and send it off for analysis. They'll give you a breakdown of all the chemicals and bits of metal floating around in the oil at that distance.
You can then make an informed decision if you want to leave the oil in for another 23k miles.
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Not sure it would, you would still need to know what you were looking at. IE what would you normally expect, what are the limits, if you do get certain amounts of debris how much earlier should you pull the oil change? Unless the lab is used to doing the model of that car plus the cost, doesn't take long but I don't know what the commercial cost would be.
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You could look at a US site called "Bob is the oil guy" tinyurl.com/2d5uh8
They take it to an elevated if not insane level, but there is much on interpretation.....
I did consider getting it done but common sense prevailed:)
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The US take oil changes to insane levels. In the 90's I worked with someone in Connecticut who ran a Volvo 240 2.0 petrol I think it was. He had an oil change every 3000 miles, his commute was 120 miles each way, every day.
That car had 500,000 miles on the clock and still sounded sweet as a nut when started up, no rattles or clanks. No chance of the sump plug rusting up :-)
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>> The US take oil changes to insane levels.
Hope he had a Fumoto drain valve on that Volvo.
Not so insane the Americans, in the early 70s i worked for a chap who owned a fleet of vans, his first van a 2 litre V4 petrol Transit he used to change the oil (Duckhams) once a month, roughly 4k miles.
At 200k hard miles that van ran as sweetly as it did the first day out.
Many years later i worked for one of the best maintained fleets of lorries in the country let alone the county, serviced impeccably engine oil @ 15k, gearbox and axles oils @ 45k to the gaffers schedule not to a cost (he always said oil was cheap so which method was more cost effective over time?), his overspecified tractor units were sold @ roughly 7 years old to an eager queue of owner drivers. Turbo failure? never heard of such a thing then unlike now.
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Americans have traditionally used crap oil and been bombarded with saturation oil company adverts and branding. 3K mile oil changes in a big slow revving V8? no needed, yet they thnik it is.
The lancer is specified oil changes at 9k miles, with any old oil. It gets 12k changes with semi synth.
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I haven't looked at BITOG for a while, but I found this tinyurl.com/ah8rlnp
which seems to be a good summation of OCI aspects. You could skip the statistical analysis and go to the summary. My stats are too rusty, and I've got to get some fizzy stuff for later!
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Very interesting reading, I've taken this from the text;
"Those who change oil frequently at 3k miles are not helping their engine. Those who leave it in for longer periods are not hurting the engine."
The studies seem to indicate that there is chemical reaction with new oil and the engine metal and early oil changes could in fact increase some of the metal wear.
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>>In my experience, enthusiasts often do know better.
>>....after a while you get to know the weak spots on a car, and what needs to be done to fix/avoid the problem.
>>....Otherwise we'd have more manufacturers recommending gearbox oil changes, instead of 'sealed for life', for example. So for example, if you heard from a series of people that the auto gearbox failed at around 120k, would you not consider an oil change every 60k?
I agree.
I have read and read the forums re my X Type and can now form an opinion on what to watch out for. There are members with fantastic know how in the USA.
The transfer box is sealed but I now have the details re inserting a drain plug etc.
Several owners have posted photos of wrecked internals or dry internals.
One other aspect of the forums is a very wide band of operating conditions in the USA / Canada that soon show up shortcomings.
One owner had rusted cills and the rust extended up the A pillar. Another claims over 300K miles to date on his car.
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Car makers make mistakes and have to make compromises.
Think of any Mercedes owners who had the forsight to Waxoyl their new cars between 1998 and 2006, people would have rediculed them at the time. They are probably the only ones not rot-boxes 6 years later.
Cars are lasting longer than ever and car makers are suffering low sales and closing factories, so it is in their interest for vehicles to last about 8 years before becoming uneconomical to maintain.
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>> Cars are lasting longer than ever and car makers are suffering low sales and closing
>> factories, so it is in their interest for vehicles to last about 8 years before
>> becoming uneconomical to maintain.
>
Any car company that used that as their business case would be out of business in 8 years.
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Perhaps not uneconomical to maintain, but certainly potentially uneconomical to have to pay for a major component replacement as the car value dips to below £2k or so.
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>> Perhaps not uneconomical to maintain, but certainly potentially uneconomical to have to pay for a
>> major component replacement as the car value dips to below £2k or so.
>>
Yes but if you buy secondhand parts wisely and maintain them well and use an independent then it's not so uneconomic.
See GB...
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>> Car makers make mistakes and have to make compromises.
>>
>> Think of any Mercedes owners who had the forsight to Waxoyl their new cars between
>> 1998 and 2006, people would have rediculed them at the time. They are probably the
>> only ones not rot-boxes 6 years later.
>>
>> Cars are lasting longer than ever and car makers are suffering low sales and closing
>> factories, so it is in their interest for vehicles to last about 8 years before
>> becoming uneconomical to maintain.
>>
Yes that is the policy Renault and Mercedes adopted and look where it got them...
Mercedes wayyyy behind BMW when 15 years ago the opposite.
Renault? Appalling reputation and falling sales..
Way to go... not
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Apparently (urban myth incoming perhaps...) Henry Ford junior once asked his minions to scour scrapyards for dead Fords and find out which components still had a lot of useful life in them.
Once he knew this he then knew which components could be made cheaper to improve profits.
See also Bosch vs Delphi in the modern era :-)
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So then, potentially silly question alert !
If one were disposed to buy a car with a view to keeping it in daily use more or less in perpetuity. What car, which is currently available new, would it have to be given that reliable and sustainable longevity would be the main criterion?
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It is a silly question, perpetuated by those who think non-stop 'fettling' will preserve mechanical devices indefinitely - the same bunch who can tell the engine is 'smoother' with the glistening clean oil they've just put in at their 3000 miles oil change.
If you can 'feel' the difference after an oil change then you left it too long ;-)
The correct answer is to buy a banger and burn it out once something goes wrong.
The answer you're looking for Humph, is going to be lightweight, NA petrol and Japanese.
Or something with an XUD under the bonnet that was given a damn good Ziebarting at birth!
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>>which is currently available new,
>>
That's the snag - you don't know what you are buying.
My policy has always been to get something that's already run-in, done a few hundred thousand miles, proved it's got the build quality.
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you need a Lancer..... I am running it for you, only up to 65k so far.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 31 Dec 12 at 17:18
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Swift Sport is 1.6 NA, timing chain. VVT engines sound fairly unbreakable.
Weak link (pardon the pun) on Jap cars after +++ miles tends to be rear suspension - no idea how much cheese the Suzuki suspension contains (or the Lancer) but even so they should be good for half-a-dozen laps of the globe.
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>> you need a Lancer..... I am running it for you, only up to 65k so
>> far.
>>
Let me know when it's passed 200,000 miles, I don't trust these low-mileage cars with one allegedly careful owner. I suppose it spends all its time just pootling to the shops and back?
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>> Let me know when it's passed 200,000 miles, I don't trust these low-mileage cars with
>> one allegedly careful owner. I suppose it spends all its time just pootling to the
>> shops and back?
The shop must be a fair way away, its done 46k in three years
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>> If one were disposed to buy a car with a view to keeping it in
>> daily use more or less in perpetuity. What car, which is currently available new, would
>> it have to be given that reliable and sustainable longevity would be the main criterion?
Land Rover Defender for sustainable longevity, bit of a question mark over reliability but you'll have the parts to keep them going.
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Humph: Any Petrol Subaru except a high-output turbocharged Impreza
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>> If one were disposed to buy a car with a view to keeping it in
>> daily use more or less in perpetuity. What car, which is currently available new, would
>> it have to be given that reliable and sustainable longevity would be the main criterion?
>>
>>
For me, I went for a Toyota Landcruiser (used in winter and for towing the caravan) and a Mazda MX-5 (for summer and fun). I intend keeping both long-term. The Landcruiser is just coming up to six years old, the Mazda two - so I have quite some time to come.
By joining the relevant owners club for the toyota, and paying for a few TSBs prior to the warranty expiring, I had a couple of jobs done even though they were possibly not strictly needed - so I had the seals at the base of the injectors switched from copper to aluminium as there were a few tales of them failing at around 5 years/80,000 miles. I think its now ready for the next 100,000 miles.
As for the Mazda, its now time to seek out a rust proofing firm - despite their protestations, Mazda do not seem to have got on top of the tin worm.
So for me, its choosing a car wisely, then researching the weak points and taking preventative action.
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>> As for the Mazda, its now time to seek out a rust proofing firm -
>> despite their protestations, Mazda do not seem to have got on top of the tin
>> worm.
I have seen this outfit recommended on other forums.
www.jrclassics.co.uk/
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>> www.jrclassics.co.uk/
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Yes they were were one i would have used if i hadn't gone to Rustmaster due to more convenient.
Very thin on the ground pro rustproofers.
Well worth getting the LC5 injectors washer seals changed, great peace of mind job done and dusted.
My present MB probably has another 4 years before it will be make me mind up time, it will be 20 in 2006 and i expect it will need considerable time and expense to refurb the underbody by then, mechanically its still very sound due in no small measure to the good maintenance regime.
I expect around 2 to 4 grands worth of refurb work to bring it back to full underbody strength and condition, consisting of remedial cutting out of weakened metal and replacing with good, replacement of all suspension bushes and any other parts showing deterioration, followed by painting and rustproofing as necessary.
A 21 year old last of the 124 coupes *should* start to regain value by then, but its worth more to me than its book value anyway due to its unique and increasingly rare simplicity and sheer driving pleasure, plus its as cheap to run as a modern Diesel due to LPG which has been a complete success.
Tough decision that will be, as i might prefer to invest time and money instead into one of the last 55 ish plate cars of my choice that sneaks in before the VED bombshell date, Japanese most likely.
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In truth, there was a mildly hidden agenda behind my ramblings. The thought had not escaped me that we already own a car which might sort of fit the main criteria of a "keeper". My wife's Qashqai is the 1.6 petrol manual in base trim. It has an apparently reliable chain cam engine and the gizmo count is as low as they go. No auto wipers or lights to go wrong. No expensive xenons to replace in due course. No DPF naturally. Straightforward 5 speed manual gearbox. Sensible 16" wheels etc etc. The solid red paint might let it down by fading in years to come but I guess that could be fixed if required.
Not saying we will keep it long term but I suspect we could if wanted to.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Tue 1 Jan 13 at 10:40
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>> In truth, there was a mildly hidden agenda behind my ramblings. The thought had not
>> escaped me that we already own a car which might sort of fit the main
>> criteria of a "keeper". My wife's Qashqai is the 1.6 petrol manual in base trim.
>> It has an apparently reliable chain cam engine and the gizmo count is as low
>> as they go. No auto wipers or lights to go wrong. No expensive xenons to
>> replace in due course. No DPF naturally. Straightforward 5 speed manual gearbox. Sensible 16" wheels
600 pounds a year in mirrors........
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>> The solid red paint might let it down by fading in years to
>> come but I guess that could be fixed if required.
>>
A bit of time invested now and you could prevent that too. I had to replace the rear number plate on my red 8 year old car. When I removed the original plate I expected to see a different colour red strip across the boot lid. None of it, same colour as the surround. The car gets polished and waxed in the springtime then waxed again ready for winter.
What surprised me more was the factory holes for number plate screws showed absolutely no signs of corrosion. The original plate had been secured with tape.
Last edited by: gmac on Tue 1 Jan 13 at 14:19
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That Cashcow should run and run. SiL has an 04 Almera that gets scheduled services, an occasional wash, and no other tlc, but just keeps going. A good wash and wax Spring and Autumn will go a long way towards preserving the red paint!
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I tend to agree with you Gromit. It'll be 5 years old in March but it only has 36k miles on it and my wife likes it. I quite like it too now. It grew on me. We could change it anytime but when I discussed that with my wife she said that if she did she'd probably just want another Qashqai or similar and we both struggle to see what advantage there would be in a new one over the one she has.
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"...we both struggle to see what advantage there would be in a new one over the one she has."
Er, it'd be a different colour? :-) And more likely with a Renault 1.5 diesel :-(
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5 years is nothing on a modern car. Having the same thoughts about SWMBO's 6-year old X3 (and 66,000 miles). No reason to think it won't stay in our household until it's 10 years old.
Arguably, it's mileage that wears a car out, not outright age.
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>> www.jrclassics.co.uk/
>> Rustmaster
Thanks for the recommendations. I've pulled my finger out, and booked into rustmaster for Monday!
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Strewth mate give Mike at Rustmaster my regards if Hatfield is the one.;)
Suggest you approach from the Hatfield/Stanborough side if possible, we went via M1 and Harpenden, and travelled along miles of narrow lanes and blind bends before finding the farm industrial estate, the other approach is far better and safer imo.
Mike dropped us in St Albans where we spent several hours whilst they did the job, seeing the state of Mike's colleague afterwards who does the filthy work he earns every penny.
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Thanks GB; yes Hatfield it is. Mike gave me a very fair price - I presume that this is a quiet time of year. Thanks for the route recommendation!
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One other thing Tigger, if its likely to rain that day take some window cleaning chemicals with you to clean your windows and wiper blades before driving home, the fine waxoyl spray will end up coating everywhere and if the roads are wet you will have a nightmare journey home trying to peer through a greasy screen with wipers doing zilch.
Glad you got a decent deal.;)
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 2 Jan 13 at 13:32
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Hadn't thought of that - thanks!
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>> Strewth mate give Mike at Rustmaster my regards if Hatfield is the one.;)
>>
Mike did my rustproofing himself. And rather a good job he did too. Highly recommended if anyone else wants some decent rustproofing done.
I've just been out washing the car to get the stray wax off the paint - looks gorgeous again now!
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>> Mike did my rustproofing himself. And rather a good job he did too. Highly recommended
>> if anyone else wants some decent rustproofing done.
Very glad it went well Tigger, if i'd known we were keeping the MB as long as we have that should have been treated.
Pint of hindsight please barman.
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>> Pint of hindsight please barman.
Were you yellow, A1 northbound just north of Black cat at about 08:45 this morning GB?
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 8 Jan 13 at 19:57
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Not guilty Z.
Couldn't be two blokes as good looking as me shirley.;)
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One of your drivers will be upset at the Lancer throwing him obscene gestures then.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 8 Jan 13 at 20:30
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>> Manufacturers often have a different agenda to the person who wants to keep their car for years.
I've just thought of a good example. The Toyota Landcruiser went into the £400+ road tax bracket and sales fell. They were only 2 or 3 grammes over.
Toyota changed the oil in the diff to a lighter grade, which reduced the emissions to below the threshold, and the car went down to £200 or so a year road tax.
SO which grade of oil should the owner use?
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>>I've been in the belief that oil makers and manufactures have spent many a few quid in research for the best grade of oil for the type of engine used
You are correct. However, they have researched what the cheapest, lowest quality oil that can be used as well.
A manufacturer's oil recommendation is not driven by a desire to make the car last perfectly for as long as possible.
It is a recommendation taking into account the need for a certain percentage of vehicles to last a certain time/mileage, the implications of that oil choice on cost of servicing, the marketing impact of expensive oil vs. the perception of "special" oils, various trade agreements, joint ownership, or other economic agreements, servicing periods, overall cost of ownership, revenue generation within service departments, tax benefits and availability.
An "enthusiast" is likely to be *only* motivated by the longevity and quality of his vehicle. Consequently the recommendations may well be different.
You simple have to decide what your motivation and requirements are.
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I kept my VW Beetles for years.Rustproofed them myself waxoline red lead and bitumen.Took all the wings off they are bolted on and treated the metal behind it and inside the wings.They are still problaby driving somewhere.
Can't do all the work anymore just keep the cars clean and tidy and changed every three years on motability.
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Do enthusiasts know better? - Harleyman
