I wonder if anyone can advise me on the cheapest form of photo ID. My daughter is 28 and is unable to purchase alcohol on the rare occasions that she wishes to do so. The vendor demands photo ID - which is difficult because her passport expired 6 months ago and she doesn't wish to pay £72.50 for a new one, especially as she has no plans for going abroad anytime soon. She doesn't drive either, hence no photo driving licence.
I thought that a simple ID was available a few years ago, but can trace no information about that. Can anyone point me in the right direction, please?
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Why not just use the out of date passport?
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Can't she just apply for a provisional licence? Doesn't much matter whether or not she uses it.
Mind you, I don't know how much those cost either, these days.
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www.citizencard.com/
£12 currently with a £3 discount
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According to my 19yr old niece, its not reliably acceptable.
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"According to my 19yr old niece, its not reliably acceptable."
Thanks for the replies. Could you just verify what you are referring to please. NFM2R? The out of date passport post, or the Citizen card suggestion?
I would have thought that an out of date passport (6 months) would be OK for this purpose but apparently, this has been tried and refused.
The Citizen card seems a good idea - but how reliable is it? The fact that it's liked to a financial concern, i.e. Visa, isn't really needed.
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I was referring to the Citizen Card and a 19yr old trying to use it in Reading Town Centre.
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In theory should but accepted but at the end of the day its up to the individual shop club or bar.
Might be a good idea for her to check with the places she goes to and ask what ID they require.
Passport is most universally accepted but I would not recommend carrying one about. A target for thieves. THere is a good market for stolen passports. Driving licence is fairly universally accepted I understand but that will set her back £50
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Provisional driving licences are not always acceptable.
I don't know why she is complaining though, most 28 year old women would give their eye teeth to look too young to purchase alcohol.
Last edited by: Robin Regal on Sat 15 Dec 12 at 12:30
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If they wont accept prov driving licences, or expired passports, it seems to me nothing would be acceptable.
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If this is the way we are going to go about things, it must be time for a national identity card scheme.
You can see why vendors behave stupidly, they are obliged to - according to the regs, these are - "Acceptable forms of identification for the age verification conditions":
• Passport;
• Photocard Driver’s Licence;
• Cards issued by local schemes that have been verified through the Proof of Age Standards
Scheme (PASS) and bear the official PASS hologram ; and
• National Identity Card.
so basically they have to see something that no-one is obliged to have. This would appear to be a tax on looking too young ;-)
No mention of the documents being in date, that I could see, so maybe she could carry the rules along with her passport?
It occurred to me that a credit card with a photo, if such a thing is still available, might do but it's not on the list.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 15 Dec 12 at 12:59
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Definitely against their "uman rites, innit"
Looking young and being denied booze is just as discriminatory as old-ageism!
;-) ;-) ;-)
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Indeed. What does it matter if it's expired? Its an official document that proves DoB whether it's expired or not is irrelevant.
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IIRC The Lad had a Citizen Card at 15 as he kept being challenged over videos and games. Quite a few hoops to be jumped through including a 'referee' of professional standing.
Card comes with photo sealed in and a hologram. I think the supermarkets accept them but pubs/clubs can make their own rules. Were very tight at the O2 Academy in Brum when we went to see Nightwish a few weeks ago.
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>> If they wont accept prov driving licences, or expired passports, it seems to me nothing
>> would be acceptable.
If she's now in her late twenties and passport is expired then it will have issued over ten years ago. The photo may not help much!!
Miss B's passport was issued when she was 16. She'll be 20 tomorrow and to be honest doesn't look much like the passport photo. Radically different hair, face has filled out a bit etc etc. OK for crossing borders where the chip confirms the detail but not sure I'd risk my profession on basis of it's ID.
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Our local collection desk at the Post Office sorting depot accept my OAP bus pass. As did supermarket staff when I offered it after a self service checkout threw a tantrum when I tried to buy booze. :-)
I would stick with the passport, It is only out of date for escape from the UK.
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I find it amazing that photo ID isn't compulsory, yet more and more shops, companies and the like are insisting on it. If it's not compulsory then why should I be made to show one?
If this Country wants everyone to have photo ID, then they should provide it for free IMHO.
I don't a passport or a photo driving licence and it's damn annoying sometimes because of the problems it causes. Until such time I need to update my driving licence from the pink paper one I have, or the need to obtain a passport to travel abroad I will have to keep on showing a recent utility bill and credit/debit card to people to prove who I am when asked.
Sometimes the occasional jobsworth will accept my work photo pass, but more often than not they won't.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 15 Dec 12 at 15:02
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If it caused me that much aggro, I would get a Photo Driving license, no reason not to is there?
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It's the principle of the thing.
ie, not compulsory, so therefore why should I have one?
And I'm damned if I'm paying for one (awaits John H to accuse me of being tight again - lol)
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>> It's the principle of the thing.
>>
>> ie, not compulsory, so therefore why should I have one?
Yeah quite right, inconvenience yourself for principals. Thats the way to go.
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>>It's the principle of the thing.
That's right, you rip that nose from your face. That'll show'em.
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>> That's right, you rip that nose from your face.
If I did that, then I would have to update the photo ID again - even more expense ;)
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>> It's the principle of the thing.
When my principles are as inconvenient as that, I usually get some new ones.
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>> It's the principle of the thing.
>>
>> ie, not compulsory, so therefore why should I have one?
>>
>> And I'm damned if I'm paying for one (awaits John H to accuse me of
>> being tight again - lol)
>>
No need to worry. I don't show my photo ID I to anyone except the issuer (for entry to business premises).
I don't carry my driving licence on me either.
At one of the local recycling centres, I am regularly asked for ID to prove I live in the the district. I refuse and tell them they have no powers to ask for my ID, and if they want they can run an ANPR check to confirm that my car's registered keeper lives in the district.
Sometimes banks ask for ID and when asked what form is acceptable, they usually say a credit card will do. If I have time to kill, and want to have some fun, I produce a card[*] that I have which bears just my name and account number, and my signature. It has no start/end date, no issue number, no 3 digit security code on the back, and no chip. That always foxes them, results in a manager being called, who is equally foxed, and then eventually allow the transaction to proceed. Never been refused.
[*] sorry, can't reveal the card in question except that it is no longer issued, is valid until death of the holder or demise of the issuer, and was only issued in very limited numbers at a certain time.
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>>>If I have time to kill, and want to have some fun, I produce a card[*] that I have which bears just my name and account number, and my signature. It has no start/end date, no issue number, no 3 digit security code on the back, and no chip. That always foxes them, results in a manager being called, who is equally foxed, and then eventually allow the transaction to proceed. Never been refused.<<<
I have played a similar sort of game, when asked for ID, get them to agree to accepting a driving licence before I produce the pink jigsaw puzzle dating back over 23 years. Has always been accepted, as nobody is prpared for loss of face once they have agreed to accept a DL!
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with all respect, JohnH, you are being a bit of a prick here.
My take on it anyways.
If I feel that someone has the right to know who I am, no problem, if not, they can get stuffed.
But being anti for the sake of being anti is just bloody-mindedness on your part.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 16 Dec 12 at 18:03
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...At one of the local recycling centres, ...
My local recycling centre is close to a city boundary - different local authority to whom I pay my rates. It is more than convenient for non contributors to use the facility I contribute to.
So I would have no issue proving my right to use the facility.
They were asking for postcodes during the summer on exit. Not too difficult to "borrow" one. I did inquire that if I gave the wrong postcode would I have to go back and take my stuff out of the skips :) The answer was no, it was just a survey.
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>> I would get a Photo Driving license, no reason not to is there?
I dunno, you don't want them having your photo do you? You never know what they might do with it. They might enhance it digitally and make you look like Gerard Depardieu (winsome photo in today's comic of the French sex god and heartthrob).
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I sometimes say "Gérard Depardieu" for fun in my best Clouseau accent, but I lost the urge to watch his films after being made to watch Jean de Florette.
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>> lost the urge to watch his films after being made to watch Jean de Florette.
He must have been good in some things but I can't remember what. But do try and catch that photo in the Terrorflag in the piece about French millionaires moving to Belgium to pay less tax. You would swear he was British if you didn't know.
:o}
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Gerard Depardieu was really hit hard with the ugly stick at birth.
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I got refused a drink in Florida, when I was in my mid thirties with huge grey streaks in my hair...the only ID I had was my UK police warrant card with sergeant written in it...still got refused.
I tried to explain that you had to be 18.5 years old to even join the Old Bill and to make sergeant in 2.5 years has never been achieved (21 being the age limit for drinking there). Fell on deaf ears.
Jobsworths are jobsworths.
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Just looked in my wallet - I have 3 x photo ID - national press card, drivers license and a works ID card.
When I travel, I also carry a national Identity Document (like a mini passport) and 2 x passports.
This 'human rights/big brother' issue is getting silly.
Who am I going to trust - some bloke with a valid passport, or some bloke with a gas bill?
No wonder 'identity theft' is so rife in UK these days - if you can open accounts etc without proving who you are, then the system is open to abuse.
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>> Jobsworths are jobsworths.
People like that are worse than jobsworths. They are killjoys who deserve a carefully thought-out revenge. Anyway the bar owner should fire them because they are bad for business.
But life's too short to bother really... I imagine the bar next door recognized yr mature years and official gravitas Westpig?
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>> Jobsworths are jobsworths.
Something got me thinking about this the other day. The jobsworth has evolved since the term was coined on Esther Rantzen's That's Life nigh on 40 yrs ago.
In those days it was a person in a secure job. Either through an odd form of devotion to duty or for entertainment they did their best to make sure petty rules were enforced.
Now they'd actually like to to oblige. But there are rules that say they've got to record so many challenges a day (say for age on a checkout). If they don't they're 'exited' form their insecure casualised employment by managers under pressure from similar targets.
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>> Now they'd actually like to to oblige. But there are rules that say they've got
>> to record so many challenges a day (say for age on a checkout). If they
>> don't they're 'exited' form their insecure casualised employment by managers under pressure from similar targets.
>>
Jobsworth reporting to a senior jobsworth reporting to a HQ jobsworth who is afraid of the Government Big Brother taking away their licence to trade if the checkout operator cannot prove that the shop does ask for age verification. The jobsworth pen pushers in the civil service have a lot to answer for.
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It's all very well calling people jobsworths but if you've ever worked in a bar you will know that you and your manager can be liable for a fine up to £10,000 for serving alcohol to the underaged. Knowing that, if someone asked you to serve them a drink and you weren't entirely happy with their ID would you serve them?
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>> It's all very well calling people jobsworths but if you've ever worked in a bar
>> you will know that you and your manager can be liable for a fine up
>> to £10,000 for serving alcohol to the underaged.
>>
+1
Which is why in my post I said the real jobsworth is the official who enforces the legislation and who has powers to close down your business if you can't show you have met the daily target of challenges made to prove that the customers are old enough to buy this or that.
Last edited by: John H on Sat 15 Dec 12 at 20:28
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"Which is why in my post I said the real jobsworth is the official who enforces the legislation and who has powers to close down your business if you can't show you have met the daily target of challenges made to prove that the customers are old enough to buy this or that."
There is no "daily target of challenges". The police and the courts enforce the law and if you are caught breaking it you, your manager and the bar owners are are in deep trouble. It's nothing to do with "jobsworths", it's the law of the land.
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JohnH, if I as an officer of the law, in an official capacity, were to ask you for ID, could you produce one?
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>> JohnH, if I as an officer of the law, in an official capacity,
>>
In England?
>> were to ask you for ID, could you produce one?
>>
No.
Official Police website
www.met.police.uk/stopandsearch/what_is.htm
"It's up to you whether you provide your name and address. You don't have to, ... "
So I'd tell you to speak to my Solicitor.
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>>
>> So I'd tell you to speak to my Solicitor.
>>
>>
>>
That still might leave them a bit stumped; 'We've stopped a man, he's given us your number, who is he?' :-)
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 16 Dec 12 at 10:54
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>> Official Police website
>>
>> www.met.police.uk/stopandsearch/what_is.htm
>>
>> "It's up to you whether you provide your name and address. You don't have to,
True you don't. However they can then arrest you and take you back to the nick to ascertain who you are.
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>>
>> >> Official Police website
>> >>
>> >> www.met.police.uk/stopandsearch/what_is.htm
>> >>
>> >> "It's up to you whether you provide your name and address. You don't have
>> to,
>>
>> True you don't. However they can then arrest you and take you back to the
>> nick to ascertain who you are.
Not sure they can do that unless they propose to report you for an offence. I expect they could find one though, including obstruction.
They might also simply refuse to let you pass, for example if you were trying to get into a football match - they can IIRC do whatever is reasonable, should they decide there might be a breach of the peace, to prevent it.
In other words, you would have started a battle that you can't win if they don't want you to.
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Simplified version of Sec 24 PACE 1984:
Section 24
A constable may arrest any person he has reasonable grounds to suspect is committing, is about to commit, or has committed an offence, and the arrest is necessary because one or more of the following Conditions are satisfied:
C - Protect a Child or vulnerable person
O - Prevent Obstruction of the highway
P - Prevent physical injury to the relevant person, or any other person
P - Prevent offences against Public Decency
L - Prevent Loss or damage to property
A - Address not known or not verifiable
N - Name not known or not verifiable
I - Allow a Prompt and Effective Investigation of the offence
D - Prevent the investigation being hindered by the Disappearance of the person
So if any offence has been committed and name and/or address not verifiable then a power of arrest exists. Contrary to what any barrack room lawyer may think.
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"Contrary to what any barrack room lawyer may think."
They normally go quiet when faced with the police or other authority, preferring to pick arguments with the likes of shop assistants or post office clerks.
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>> So if any offence has been committed and name and/or address not verifiable then a
>> power of arrest exists. Contrary to what any barrack room lawyer may think.
As a barrack room lawyer I'd say my working assumption is pretty spot on then.
The police hold all the trumps in any interaction with anybody who has anything to lose or gives a toss.
What is unfortunate is that the sociopaths who cause 99% of the trouble are largely unfazed by the law in any form.
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>> Simplified version of Sec 24 PACE 1984:
>> So if any offence has been committed and name and/or address not verifiable then a
>> power of arrest exists. Contrary to what any barrack room lawyer may think.
>>
Ifs and Buts. A completely different ballgame to be played in that scenario, which can lead tio a low ranking pleb Police Officer getting in to trouble. ;-)
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>> Ifs and Buts. A completely different ballgame to be played in that scenario, which can
>> lead tio a low ranking pleb Police Officer getting in to trouble. ;-)
Dont think so, refuse to identify yourself to a copper is always going to lead to a shed load of trouble for you, not the copper. Your on a no win situation, even if you try and play the race card.
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I will always identify myself to a copper if asked, even if they're being unreasonable. And cooperate in anyway I can.
The last thing they need is me making their life more difficult.
I've never been quite sure about how one gains the moral high-ground by being more bloody minded than the person one is dealing with.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 17 Dec 12 at 00:34
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>> Which is why in my post I said the real jobsworth is the official who
>> enforces the legislation and who has powers to close down your business if you can't
>> show you have met the daily target of challenges made to prove that the customers
>> are old enough to buy this or that.
There is no target form 'pen pushing Civil Servants'.
The business wants to be able to show it is enforcing and age policy in case of challenge, perhaps after a slip up. Its managers then require staff to record challenges on a regular basis.
Junior/middle managers who've not got the brains or balls to exercise discretion enforce it aggressively as a target.
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>> It's all very well calling people jobsworths but if you've ever worked in a bar
>> you will know that you and your manager can be liable for a fine up
>> to £10,000 for serving alcohol to the underaged. Knowing that, if someone asked you to
>> serve them a drink and you weren't entirely happy with their ID would you serve
>> them?
There's a big difference between your statement and making everyone cough up ID regardless of your suspicion. There have been plenty of press articles of pensioners having to produce ID , which is plainly ridiculous...and the result of a jobsworth.
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I have never been asked for ID in a bar.
Either I have always looked as old as Methuselah or bar staff can tell from my urgent demeanour and gritted teeth that any delay will lead to serious trouble.
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>> I have never been asked for ID in a bar.
Nor have I. Never been asked to prove my age when purchasing anything in fact. I think I was born looking thirty.
I use my LGV digicard as proof of address when collecting parcels from the sorting office, otherwise the only time I ever need ID is when picking up cars for work. The strictest checks are usually for not very valuable cars either - I've been asked to show my licence when collecting a 4-year-old SEAT, but not when taking away a classic Aston Martin worth 100x as much. The logo'd uniform, the truck and the fact that I'm there at all are usually all the proof needed.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Sat 15 Dec 12 at 23:39
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'There have been plenty of press articles of pensioners having to produce ID ,'
Well I suppose somewhere it might happen but its certainly never happened to me and I suspect never happened to you either. In my experience the number of people out there looking to take offence over trivial issues exceeds the so called "jobsworths" by a considerable factor.
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>> the number of people out there looking to take offence over trivial issues exceeds the so called "jobsworths" by a considerable factor.
Well done CGN. You've identified a new category of annoying modern person, the 'reverse jobsworth'. They're everywhere. Zero is one.
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>> the 'reverse jobsworth'
Is that a sub-species of the pompous ass?
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>> It's all very well calling people jobsworths but if you've ever worked in a bar
>> you will know that you and your manager can be liable for a fine up
>> to £10,000 for serving alcohol to the underaged.
Fortunately I've not been in that position as photo ID wasn't required when I was 18. Had it been, then yes I would have paid for one so I could then buy alcohol.
I guess I was one of the lucky ones though, for example, being able to get into the cinema at 14 to watch 18 cert rated movies without being asked my age.
Re: my earlier post. The point I was trying to make is that whilst photo ID isn't compulsory, everwhere you tend to go these days you get asked for it.
I can understand the need for them when buying alcohol, fags etc, but not for anything else.
I picked up a click and collect order the other day from my local Tesco and was even asked for photo ID there before they would let me have the thing I had already paid for. Fortunately a colleague of the jobsworth pointed out that providing the customer shows his clubcard and the payment card used to purchase the item, along with the print out of the order/email then that's all is required as proof.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 16 Dec 12 at 00:18
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>> I can understand the need for them when buying alcohol, fags etc, but not for
>> anything else.
Collecting post etc from depot or sorting office might be another. Can be high value stuff and shared letterboxes mean notification card easily falls into wrong hands.
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It's amazing isn't it, that a simple question can lead to 55 replies (at the last count) - but still there's no clear answer.
I guess this is another reason why there is so much pent-up frustration in the country today - life is made so much more difficult for the innocent when blunt measures are adopted in an attempt to curb the activities of the lawless and the antisocial. Rather like dolphins caught up in tuna nets (not that the tuna have done anything wrong!).
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Rather like dolphins caught up in tuna nets that the tuna largely ignore ;-)
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And checking stuff for Draiber's probate question shows you need photo id there too.
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Along these lines - if you're picked for a "random" stop and search by the police, do you have the right to insist that it's done in private in a police station? Or is the only way to accomplish this to be arrested?
Not that it particularly matters, but if the police would like to waste my time with an invasive and pointless search that's damaging to civil liberties in general, I'd like to waste as much of theirs as possible in return.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Sun 16 Dec 12 at 16:48
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Do you not want the police to be able to search anybody, or is it just you?
;-)
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>> Do you not want the police to be able to search anybody, or is it
>> just you?
>>
>> ;-)
>>
The option should be available to have the search done privately. If that means in a police station, so be it. I do not think that anybody should be subject to an invasive search which requires no explanation from the officer conducting it.
Right now the police have far-reaching powers that are being abused to an increasing extent - look at the 61% increase in arrests under anti-terrorism legislation. The police have not, overnight, found two-thirds more terrorists nor is the detection rate improving.
sniped at OP's request
We've sleepwalked into a situation where anything goes with the excuse "terrorism". Similar legislation leads to me being searched every time I go to work. snip
I cannot even move between the arrival and departure levels of the terminal due to being a security threat; in that I might have had contact with an undesirable on the apron. Never mind the fact that the cleaners have higher level access to the terminal than me.
Why do you think you can't take liquids through? Airport and airline executives sit on the board of the CAA, which in turn advises the department of transport, which lays down the law. These executives make a phenomenal amount of money from re-selling your liquids / creams / gels / pastes back to you once you're through security.
The next major accident in the UK will not be from terrorism (frankly, on a fundamental level the other passengers would probably kill the terrorist before they achieved anything) but from a pilot who, by having their genitals fingered by someone who appears to enjoy their job, will be brooding on this instead of the matter at hand when it really counts.
So as someone who suffers from pointless security on a daily basis - and apologies for the slightly wild and frustrated diversion here but I've been up since 3am and been subjected to exactly the experience described above - being told to empty my pockets to a bored policeman is not something I think is beneficial to society.
* I'll also point out that no other country in Europe has such draconian laws and are a pleasure to work from, and they don't appear to particularly suffer from aeroplanes flying into buildings.
Last edited by: R.P. on Mon 14 Jan 13 at 16:25
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IIRC, from two years ago, bottled water in AGP, flight-side, is about 2.80 euros for 75Cl.
As FF said, that's the reason you cannot buy in your local supermercado and take it with you.
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>> Along these lines - if you're picked for a "random" stop and search by the
>> police, do you have the right to insist that it's done in private in a
>> police station? Or is the only way to accomplish this to be arrested?
If a search means more than outer clothing, hats, gloves etc..it should always be done in private...e.g. police van.
If you want the outer clothing search done at the police station, just raise your voice and become a pain in the ass....and your wish will come true.
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I can well see why anybody subjected airport "security" on a regular basis would be sceptical, especially somebody who could well have his nail clippers confiscated before getting the keys to the aeroplane, complete with fire axe in cockpit.
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I always give my name too when asked. No policeman has asked for it for some years, but I can remember that when they did, especially when I was young, sometimes they cheekily started addressing me insinuatingly by my first name as if I was 'known' to them.
I know everyone does it now, even machines on the internet. But it isn't what I was brought up to do and it still grates.
However Westpig, Fullchat and Woodster can do it all they like. I sort of know them and they sort of know me.
:o}
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>> I know everyone does it now, even machines on the internet. But it isn't what
>> I was brought up to do and it still grates.
>>
Same here. Presumptious upstarts I'd like to say, but usually don't because that aside I'm rather good at the attitude test.
I have a good test for whether people really know me or not, because I never use my first name, only my second. So any cold caller, machine, pseudo-friend or policeman who has just got my name from a file isn't genuine, and I treat with great suspicion.
Not me-pal on this forum of course.
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>> I have a good test for whether people really know me or not, because I
>> never use my first name, only my second.
You like to be called pope? wow thats some ego you have their Your Holiness
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>> thats some ego you have their Your Holiness
Heh heh... but I have a friend of 50-odd years, a hard-working and enviably successful writer of biographies and other works, whose friends address and refer to him by his surname alone while everyone else also mentions the first name that appears on the books. So you can always tell whether people know him or not.
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Photo ID..... - sherlock47
