This post is inspired by a current thread on the new Toyota Auris. It's just the size and type of car that I'll be looking at when I replace my current chariot. Smart-looking both inside and out, 5 year warranty . . . and other good things.
Londoner (for it is he) walks into a Toyota dealership. He starts looking at an Auris, and a salesperson spots him and approaches.
Salesperson: "Can I help you?
L: Yes. I'm interested in the new Toyota Auris. I have a budget of "x" thousand pounds. I'd like Automatic transmission, Leather seats and Dual Zone aircon, please.
Salesperson: No problem! The "Excel" model has Dual Zone aircon as standard. You can also specify Leather seats and Automatic Transmission as options. But these will cost extra, of course.
L: So far, so good! How much?
Salesperson: [Beaming in expectation of a sale] The list price of an Auris with the options that you require would be well within your budget! Plus we'll negotiate a more attractive package for you.
L: Let's proceed then. Please tell me more about the car.
Salesperson: Well, it's got lots of features as standard, not just the ones that you mentioned. Park Assist for example.
L: Hmm - could be useful.
Salesperson: Also . . . Heated front seats.
L: I'd certainly appreciate them in winter!
Salesperson: Also . . . Cruise Control.
L: Hmm - never found a use for it, but never mind.
Salesperson: Also . . . Rear privacy glass.
L: Oh! I don't want that. I hate privacy glass! I'll have just plain glass please.
Salesperson: [Somewhat taken aback] But you can't! Rear privacy glass is standard on the "Excel" model.
L: OK. I'll go for another model then.
Salesperson: But you can't get the options that you want on the other models. They only come on the "Excel".
L: Thank You for your help - Good Morning! [Gets up].
Salesperson: But why don't you want privacy glass? It's useful. It's very popular.
L: I'm sure it is, but I can't help the way that I feel.
Exit Londoner towards Volkswagen dealers.
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>>
>> Exit Londoner towards Volkswagen dealers.
>>
I recall another thread discussing the similar inflexibility of Honda recently.
Firstly, I confess that I like privacy glass, both aesthetically (on estate cars only) and for security on such models. What I have found is that my children seem to experience travel sickness in cars fitted with it and I wish it were available only on the non-passenger windows but I haven't seen this.
I once walked away from a Honda Accord Tourer because I didn't want leather seats and similarly the other options I wanted were only available on the top EX model, I doubt this approach actually loses Toyota and Honda many sales really and we're in the minority Londoner ?
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I should have added - Londoner - get a Golf, you're down sizing from an Audi (and a BMW) IIRC, it won't feel like such a drop and you can petty much spec a VW exactly how you want it to be....
Or a Polo at a push (but I'd get the Golf).
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>> you can pretty much spec a VW exactly how you want it to be....
>>
I'd agree you generally find that VW are very flexible when it comes to availability of options, but engine availibilty is often managed in a way to upsell you. For example to get the higher powered version of the engine in the Up! we had to choose the top trim level, even though we didn't want/need heated seats and sat nav in a city car. Likewise if you want (ed) a 2.0 TDI engine in a Golf then you need a 'Match', or if you want a more powerful one than that, petrol or diesel, then GT spec is the minimum. It was ever thus thus though I think; I seem to recall that back in '92 when my Mother bought a Golf she wanted a 1.8 (with a heady 90bhp IIRC) so GL spec was required even though a CL was all that was wanted. Its 75bhp was deemed far too sluggish!!
They're all at it though; the days of being able to choose a manual, cloth trimmed Mercedes with a big engine are also gone. If you want a 3 litre C class then it'll come with a standard auto box and a minimum of 'AMG Sport' trim level...
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Are we to take it that you're not keen on rear privacy glass then?
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Today an inquest was told about the fate of Mr L, who jumped under a Boris Bus.
His sobbing wife said he had been told that VW's only specify Dual Zone Climate control with privacy glass....
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Peter's right that there's always been a bit of shading out of the top right and bottom left corners of the engine-model matrix: your base model Cortina could be a 1.3 or a 1.6 but not a 2.0, while if you wanted a second door mirror or two-speed wipers you had to go for a bigger engine (presumably to carry the extra weight.)
What seems different is that this has extended to 'love or loathe' features like privacy glass and 18" wheels. Many makers also make you buy the top model if you want anything but an all-black interior. Of course, they do what they feel their target market will bear; it would be nice to think that Londoner's Toyota salesman will report back to the effect that 'privacy glass cost me a sale today', but somehow I doubt that.
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So glad I live far enough north not to be able to hear the foot stamping tantrums of people not being able to get exactly what they want. :-)
I must have cruise control, but know how to compromise.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 07:35
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Londoner, it might be worth contacting Toyota head office at Epsom.
It can't be beyond the wit of someone to simply stop the gloom film or glass being applied or fitted to your car as it passes that point in operation.
IMO you met an idiot, by-pass him and go to the organ grinder...if he's an idiot too then send a letter to Mr T himself.
As for darkened glass, no i don't like it either though it does have its uses especially if the occupants are peculiar looking creatures or criminals, a gentle overall tint is classy.
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>> Exit Londoner towards Volkswagen dealers.
>>
Sadly, that may not help. I was idly browsing the specs for a Golf estate online a few months back, and apart from the base model, they all had privacy glass. But the same Catch 22 - to get the engine and other specs that I wanted, including standard fitments & options, I would have had to go for the higher-end model....as I wasn't actually buying, I didn't take it any further. Whether they would have deleted it if I was serious, I never found out.
My feelings are the same as yours, I don't care if people do want it, but I certainly don't. I'd be quite happy if it was an option that I could simply not specify. I've heard comments that it's very difficult parking at night with it.
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But honestly, dahling, nobody who is anybody looks where they're parking any more. That's strictly for the little people.
};---)
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>>I've heard comments that it's very difficult parking at night with
>> it.
>>
My car has privacy glass, it makes no difference to the view in the door mirrors when reversing.
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Have an Auris hybrid, so know the option problem. The lower trim level has 15" wheels with reasonable depth rubber but you do away with useful things like auto rear view mirror/wipers and headlights (appreciate that the "shouldn't have got rid of starting handles" brigade would debate their usefulness!).
VW seem to be the most flexible on options, although you'll probably wait for a fair time for delivery
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>> My car has privacy glass, it makes no difference to the view in the door
>> mirrors when reversing.
I think it was more peering through the side windows. Vehicles in front & behind are easier to judge I guess than what's at the side perhaps? Anyway, not a problem for me, my parking skills in my Saab are fine atm ;-)
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I may have a slight advantage, having driven HGVs reversing using mirrors is second nature. I rarely feel the need to turn my head to reverse safely. :-)
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>> I may have a slight advantage, having driven HGVs reversing using mirrors is second nature.
>> I rarely feel the need to turn my head to reverse safely. :-)
I hope your insurance company is not reading this....
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>> I hope your insurance company is not reading this....
>>
I have yet to bother any car insurance company with a claim, some people are skilled drivers, some are.................:-)
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>> >> I hope your insurance company is not reading this....
>> >>
>>
>> I have yet to bother any car insurance company with a claim, some people are
>> skilled drivers, some are.................:-)
Blind Lucky?
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>> Blind Lucky?
>>
Yes nearly 50 years of it.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 09:22
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>> ....Screwdrivers.
>>
>> Pat
>>
:-)
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Its not just a fashion fad, there are technical reasons. Cars are fitted with climate control. Privacy glass makes less of a greenhouse effect in the car and therefore easier for the climate control to , well, control the climate. And the less climate controlling it does, the less powerful the cooling needs to be, and the less powerful the cooling needs to be the lower petrol consumption needs to be.
So yes, it is beyond the wit of someone on the line just to miss out the sticky film, which is not sticky film its actually tinted glass, which arrived on the line 5 minutes before, because thats the time in production schedules those set of features are being fitted, in a very controlled way because thats the only way you can build ten of thousands of cars a day, and building tens of thousands of cars a day is the only way you get them at the price you are prepared to pay.
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>> So yes, it is beyond the wit of someone on the line just to miss
>> out the sticky film, which is not sticky film its actually tinted glass, which arrived
>> on the line 5 minutes before, because thats the time in production schedules those set
>> of features are being fitted, in a very controlled way because thats the only way
>> you can build ten of thousands of cars a day, and building tens of thousands
>> of cars a day is the only way you get them at the price you
>> are prepared to pay.
So the answer is to slip Heinrich a couple of euros to swop the car between production lines for those critical few minutes when the glass is being fitted, then back again?
Otherwise, a good point regarding the climate control Zero, hadn't thought of it like that. But wait, why bother with glass, let's make the side windows of metal and call it a van? ;-)
Or get Scottie working on transparent Aloominum?
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I would like to have two summers in a row where climate control and privacy glass is not desirable but essential..
But alas the Met Office forecast barbecue summers and deliver rain.. and rain and more rain...
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>> I would like to have two summers in a row where climate control and privacy
>> glass is not desirable but essential..
>>
>> But alas the Met Office forecast barbecue summers and deliver rain.. and rain and more
>> rain...
Spot on. Surely some sort of wiper enhancement, or standard rain optimised tyres are the next "killer" features for UK spec cars.
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Otherwise, a good point regarding the climate control...
Not sure Mike was entirely serious, Zero. Were you? If so, l'Es had better check with Volvo whether ordering his V40 with or without dark glass (Volvo, bless 'em, confine it to the options list) will make a difference to its CO2 value - although I may have heard somewhere that he's 'not a tree hugger', so perhaps he doesn't care.
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>> Otherwise, a good point regarding the climate control...
>>
>> Not sure Mike was entirely serious, Zero. Were you?
I was
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>> Oh dear.
Actually, I was! Still don't like it but can understand the reasoning behind it, although I can't believe that there would be much overall effect on fuel consumption.
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>> >> Oh dear.
>>
>> Actually, I was! Still don't like it but can understand the reasoning behind it, although
>> I can't believe that there would be much overall effect on fuel consumption.
Car makers are playing a game with the numbers. They are even dumping spare wheels (or using temporary spres) to get the numbers down. Losing weight and reducing load in the aircon department is just part of that game.
Tinted glass is not heavier than plain glass.
Failing that explanation you will have to accept the theory that Toyota do it to upset customers and loose sales
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 21:47
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Well, of course I'll eat my words if anyone can point to some real evidence, but to me it reads like the 'reduced unsprung weight' line we used to get about alloy wheels; it may be true in principle but it makes no measurable difference in practice, so it's pseudoscience to justify a purely cosmetic accessory - except, of course, for people with really ugly children. I just hope the glass doesn't become obligatory as the wheels have.
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>> Well, of course I'll eat my words if anyone can point to some real evidence,
>> but to me it reads like the 'reduced unsprung weight' line we used to get
>> about alloy wheels; it may be true in principle but it makes no measurable difference
>> in practice, so it's pseudoscience to justify a purely cosmetic accessory - except, of course,
>> for people with really ugly children. I just hope the glass doesn't become obligatory as
>> the wheels have.
Well we have to accept they do it just to be annoying then.
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If Wikipedia is to be believed (!!) then the EU fuel consumption / emissions test is carried out with all ancillary loads switched off, so the presence or otherwise of privacy glass will make no difference to the AC compressor loading. I also doubt that manufacturers spec different AC components for cars with or without privacy glass.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_European_Driving_Cycle
As with most things motoring today it's probably just fashion led. Stick to the German 'premium' (aka the new mass market ;-) ) manufacturers and you can be sure of being relieved of a further £300~£500 for the benefit of privacy glass!
Last edited by: PeterS on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 22:24
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Remember that not all privacy glasses are created equal.
There's a heck of a difference between the tinted stuff that manufacturer's fit as standard and the black-as-pitch aftermarket crud seen on yer average chavmobile.
The standard stuff on my Opel's rear windows looks pretty dark from outside, yet when sitting inside it looks merely tinted and has little effect on the view out, even at night.
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>> I doubt this approach actually loses Toyota and Honda many sales really
It is difficult to measure how many sales they lost because customers didn't like any option in a car of the whole car itself.
There are many cars which I don't even like to look at and thus never will be in my shopping list. But none of the manufacturers can actually count how many sales they lost because of this.
They simply compare like for like sales year-on-year basis. As long as that number (and their profit) are rising they don't care much about lost sales.
Mind you, you may not buy because you don't like privacy glasses but someone else may not buy unless there is privacy glass.
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Had it on my CRV and Roomster - mitigated the Roomie's looks a little. Good stuff. Won't bother me if the next car has it at all.
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>> Had it on my Roomster - mitigated the Roomie's looks a little
It didn't, honestly. Only a blindfold would mitigate it
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Privacy glass wouldn't be a feature that I would want on a car, so earlier this year I asked Honda if it was possible to buy a CR-V with plain glass. They advised me to contact my local Honda dealer who, they suggested, might be able to put through a special order for this.
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I used privacy glass in my original example in order to make it relevant to me personally. I recognize that it is one of those "marmite" things - strongly dividing opinion. Others have been mentioned such as:
- being forced to have automatic transmission,
- not having a proper spare wheel,
- electro-mechanical parking brakes and
- leather seats.
There is also the issue of having to fork out extra money to upgrade to a higher model just to get an item that you really, really want.
Britain makes loads of good cars, but none of the ones in my particular market segment have been appealing up to now. The sad thing is that with the new Auris, I could see myself actually wanting a British-made car for a change.
I think that it is entirely reasonable that I spend my hard-earned cash in getting the car that I want, rather than the one that the manufacturer wants to supply to me.
Still, I'm lucky in that I have suitable alternatives available. I can always get a VW Golf. It's a great car, so I won't really be losing out too much will I? ;-)
Hopefully a few miles left in the old Audi yet, though.
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Toyota specify Privacy Glass as std on all Yaris hybrids except el boggo standard one. Honda did not on the Jazz. Another reason to desert Toyota...
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most cars if you want an auto gearbox you are limited in the other options you can take, unless you want vauxhall or ford
i was a long time toyota fan but refused to order an MMT their politically correct version of an auto these days
me personally i would like a high spec car WITHOUT alloy wheels but with a full size spare, chances of finding one of these especiallu with an auto transmission in this country precisely zero...
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>> i would like a high spec car WITHOUT alloy wheels but with a full size spare
Sell the original wheels/tyres on t'ebay then go to these guys:
www.mytyres.co.uk/Complete_wheels.html
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 22:14
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>> Sell the original wheels/tyres on t'ebay then go to these guys:
>>
Then forever more you have to declare a modified car to the insurer, soon as you mention wheel changes on a comparison site lots of companies disappear, and others penalise the insured.
I actually quite like alloy wheels so long as they are properly painted and not the fashionable and non corrosion resistant diamond cut and lacquered finish.
What i don't want is to be forced to have elastic bands on 20" wheels fitted to a car with already hard suspension because i want an engine with some torque.
edit...my first lorries with tubed tyres were 20" wheels, getting quite ridiculous now, some Insignias come on 20" wheels, even Diesels IIRC.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 22:28
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I'm a fan of alloy wheels too but, perhaps somewhat shallowly, purely for the way they look. ISTR that someone, was it Vauxhall?, experimented with a different design of steel wheel / hubcap that was virtually indistinguishable from an alloy wheel (until it was kerbed presumably..). I wonder what happened to the idea?
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L&V have no issue with swapped out wheels, winters went on the policy as a no cost swap - no need to even tell them when it happened.
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>> L&V have no issue with swapped out wheels, winters went on the policy as a
>> no cost swap - no need to even tell them when it happened.
Wanted to give them a try for motor cover, but they made such a pigs ear of being unable to even accept the premium for dog cover that we decided not to risk the chaos a claim could be...call centre staff couldn't have been less helpful if they tried.
Even the hell on earth that was NTL ever had any trouble taking money, that really was a new one on me.
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>> wheel / hubcap that was virtually indistinguishable from an alloy wheel (until it was kerbed
>> presumably..). I wonder what happened to the idea?
>>
I remember those, was it Cavalier or Vectra? an excellent design, looking sad? simply pop 'em take 'em indoors and spray 'em for the price of an aerosol can of paint.
Similarly steel wheels don't need to look like something from a 1972 Escort Popular.
Whilst perusing the Dacia Duster online brochure i noticed that they seem to have 3 wheel grades to go with the 3 specs, the middle grade appears to be a steel wheel but cast quite attractively...already pencilled in should i get one is having those powder coated as and when with star silver at that super cheap wheel refurbers in B'ham...they'd be the perfect wheel combo for me.
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Vauxhall used to have steels + wheeltrims that looked very much like alloys at first glance - 5 boxy spokes IIRC.
Here's the chaps:
www.autoexpress.co.uk/vauxhall/24606/vauxhall-alloy-a-steel
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 22:52
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That's the one I was thinking of - thanks!
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Toyota - Catch-22 with car options. A One Act Play. - idle_chatterer
