MODS - please delete if deemed inappropriate, too partisan or anything else!
Please will any of you be kind enolugh read this and sign, if you wish to
www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/judge-advocate-alistair-mcgrigor-military-justice-overturn-the-decision-to-jail-sgt-nightingale-for-18-months?
Judge Advocate Alistair McGrigor Military Justice: Overturn the decision to jail Sgt Nightingale for
www.change.org
It is a betrayal of an exemplary member of HM armed forces. The circumstances of this case (war trophy overlooked in the haste of battle preparation)...
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 21 Nov 12 at 12:59
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I'm not sure.
But we seem to be talking of a highly trained soldier who forgot he had put a gun in his luggage. Which even if he had forgotten he'd done it, would have been against the rules when he actually did it.
And did he also forget the 338 rounds of live ammuniton including the 50 armour piercing rounds?
I think this is not as straight forward as it seems.
Follows the transcript;
www.crimeline.info/uploads/cases/nightingale.pdf
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 18 Nov 12 at 14:19
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The full transcript of the trial.
www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/nightingale-proceedings-0607112012.pdf
If the court had not accepted that there were special circumstances in this case they would have had to sentence him to a minimum 5 years.
As the judge state if Nightingale had contested the facts and not pleaded guilty he would have ended up with 3 and a half years. The court in sentencing him to eighteen months was actually attempting to be as lenient as it could the circumstances.
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I won't be signing either. Saw the transcript on www.judiciary on Friday and thought he'd got off lightly.
Just to many forgottens for it to add up as inadvertence even allowing for his history and record.
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I won't either.
He's playing the soldier hero card rather like Lance Armstrong and Jimmy Savile did the charity cards. And if he genuinely forgot he had the gun and ammo - hard to believe - he knew what he was doing when he brought it home.
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He did not "Bring it home"
The 9mm Glock pistol was presented to him after he helped to train a unit of Iraqi forces in 2007. He planned to donate the weapon to his regiment but it was left behind when he had to accompany the bodies of two of his friends who were killed in a helicopter crash back to Britain.
His colleagues packed his kit in a container, including the gun, and sent it to the SAS regimental headquarters in Hereford. The container, which remained unopened, was subsequently moved to the soldier’s home and forgotten about.
Please sign, or don't. there are 10,000 signatures already, a few extra will help and a few missing won't matter!
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 18 Nov 12 at 15:02
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It's the ammunition what makes me think .The gun no problem.He must have had a lot of stress and needs help.Prison for him isn't the answer.
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I don't often sign petitions and I haven't signed this one. But I sympathise with the squaddy whose official story, quite a convincing one, is laid out by Meldrew. He certainly isn't the only ex-soldier who has had a souvenir or liberated firearm stashed away somewhere. I like firearms myself and that doesn't bother me.
Of course stealing army weapons for sale to hoodlums at inflated prices is another matter. But there is no suggestion of that in this case.
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As above if it was just the Pistol that's one thing. All the ammo that's another. If he'd have lived inside the wire I'm sure there would have been a different course of events, as soon as the civvy police got involved as he was in SSSA, things were much more limited in the range of outcomes.
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These rules are carved in stone.
Lucky he didn't get 5 years.
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Possibly, if you are right and he did mean those, I was more commenting on the set in stone. There are expectional circumstances to not use the minimum sentencing, so not quite set in stone.
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And indeed those exceptional circumstances led to the accused receiving three and a half years off the otherwise five year obligatory sentence.
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I know, I did read the links ;)
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Yes, 'subject to certain exceptions' does seem to leave judges plenty of latitude in sentencing. Like others though - perhaps a majority - judges are subject to 'vertigo' on these contentious subjects. In this case the vertigo didn't overrule commonsense (as it can sometimes), but led to a sentence too severe in my opinion.
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While searching her house looking for her son, apparently a 'war souvenir' turned up underneath mum's mattress:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/10335003
5 years
www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2010HCJAC117.html
Interestingly this was subsequently appealed (against sentence - she had admitted possession) and deemed to be unduly harsh leading to it being replaced with 240 comm service.
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More amusing is this guy who, funnily enough, did not receive lenience from the Crown:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-14234759
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Five years for accidental possession, four months for nicking it in the first place...
Anyone who says the law's an ass won't hear any argument from me.
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Neither of the Nightingale links working for me :(
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>> While searching her house looking for her son, apparently a 'war souvenir' turned up underneath
>> mum's mattress:
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/10335003
>>
>> 5 years
>>
>> www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2010HCJAC117.html
>>
>> Interestingly this was subsequently appealed (against sentence - she had admitted possession) and deemed to
>> be unduly harsh leading to it being replaced with 240 comm service.
>>
>>
>>
My reading of the appeal is different - did not the 2 other judges (of the 3 ) over rule the first judgement? Or does majority logic not apply in Scotland?
"The court must bear in mind that the democratic process has legitimately determined that a substantial minimum period in custody is required as a deterrent in order to deal with the real problem of prohibited firearms. Even if the court considered that exceptional circumstances did exist, it could not justify the imposition of a non-custodial sentence for the possession of a Browning 7.65 mm self loading military pistol."
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Further to my previous posting - I assume I got it wrong?
Maybe the 3rd Judge was agreeing with the 1st and the appeal was granted. It is not clear to me who is 'Chairing the Appeal' - is it explictly stated?
Last edited by: pmh on Sun 18 Nov 12 at 19:35
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I'd assume the first named judge was the Chair, in which case appeal allowed but I agree it's not as clear as English judgements where one explicitly agrees with LJA or LJB.
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>> Please sign, or don't. there are 10,000 signatures already, a few extra will help and a few missing won't matter!
Can you or the site you link to count? It's aiming for 5000 and not there yet. From what I'd read in the news I might have thought he was hard done by. I'm not so sure... what did he intend doing with the ammo!??!
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Probably everyone brought back a "souvenir" from WWI or II, but times have changed.
We did a house clearance once of an old bloke whose widow asked us to clear out his shed and workshop. Hanging on the wall, hidden behind pictures and a signed letter from George V thanking him for his war sevices, was a perfectly preserved .303 WWI army rifle. He had several rounds of ammunition in a drawer.
The local museum said it was an unusual period piece, dating from the Boer war, some of which were still in use in 1914-18. I was tempted to try firing it, but discretion and the fear of a prison sentence deterred me.
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Signed AND if there's a reliable whip round for her I would contribute.
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Do the Nightingale links work for anyone?
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>>Do the Nightingale links work for anyone?
I just clicked on them all to check and they all seem to work fine.
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Sorted. Some sort of Adobe plug in issue which required deleting.
Indeed an interesting read.
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>> Do the Nightingale links work for anyone?
Yep.
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>> Probably everyone brought back a "souvenir" from WWI or II, but times have changed.
Executors used to find these sort of things quite regularly. Used to be quite blasé about such things until a colleague who was a club shooter witnessed one being signed in at the office (late eighties so before Dunblane). Quite horrified that we were not effectively treating the weapon as live etc.
I guess nowadays we's need an SoP and a risk assessment.
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It is the ****heads in 'Power' (as they like to call it) that need an Assessment. Of their heads.
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Why does a soldier need illegal weapons and ammunition as a 'souvenir'?
I don't keep bodyparts in my house.
Solider with exemplary military record found guilty of murdering an Asian waiter in Orkney before he joined the Army.
www.heraldscotland.com/new-witness-will-not-clear-orkney-killer-1.898314
"Ross had a stash of weapons, including a Scorpion machine pistol, hand grenade and 542 rounds of ammunition hidden in a hire car parked less than two miles from the court when he vaulted over the dock and raced through a side door. "
No excuse.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 13:29
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Not unknown for the medical profession to misuse drugs which are readily available to them.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 13:47
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Reading the report, at the link, it seems that the stash of weapons was not connected with the murder which occurred 18 years ago. They were in a car to which the accused was trying to get to when he escaped from the court, having been sentenced. That said, he comes across as an unbalanced character and I think it highly probable that he "Acquired" his collection while serving in the Army.
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Indeed - Army acquired 'souvenirs' being kept a couple of miles away to facilitate escape and remaining at large in the event of conviction (and successful subsequent escape).
I believe the murder may have been linked to ammo owned by the convicted killer's father. His dad for 4 years for perverting the course of justice some years earlier:
"Ross's father Eddie was also jailed for four years for attempting to pervert the course of justice Police firearms expert Ross senior lied about the possession of ammunition which matched that used in the killing."
Upshot was Michael Ross had an extra 5 yrs added to his 25 for the attempted break-out from court after conviction.
>>the stash of weapons was not connected with the murder which occurred 18 years ago
Aye, but what did Ross plan to do with it if he managed to get to his waiting hire car?
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Thanks - you obviously have more knowledge of the background than is in the press report Clearly the guns in the car were planned for some sort of do or die escape a la Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
Last edited by: Meldrew on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 14:22
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An uncle of mine, a very kindly old gent had been a member of the IRA back in the twenties when Ireland was under British rule. When he died and they cleared the loft of his house in Cork they found a small arsenal of firearms and ammunition.
Both my parents owned handguns back in the fifties, my mum being pretty miffed when the old man sold hers behind her back.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 Nov 12 at 19:37
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Scary things.
I don't mind shotguns, and No. 1 daughter shoots rifles, but handguns seem unwieldy, heavy and scary.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 16 Dec 12 at 18:16
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When I was 15 and in the Army Cadet Corp back in the sixties we would go to weekend camp to the Guards depot at Pirbright and take our Mark IV Lee Enfield rifles with us. When returning on Sunday evening the school would be closed and we would be unable to return the rifles to the armoury so we would take them home with us on the bus.
Can't imagine that happening now without an armed response unit being called out.
Think I could still remember how to strip down a Bren gun.
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"Further, that the familiarity with them had made you lose sight of the essential requirement for their safekeeping. Finally, that but for your work, you would not find yourself in such a position."
The military in general are regimented in their procedures in respect of weapons and ammunition. The Special Services and the work they are expected to undertake have a wholly different set of rules. Not that they should forget the basics.
"All these matters allow us to find exceptional circumstances in your case."We have not dismissed you or reduced you in rank as on the information before us we consider that you may still, with your specialist experience, be of use to the army in the future. We would invite those who will have to consider your future in the army in due course to bear these sentencing remarks in mind."
Is 8 months performing 'bunny hops' in Colchester making the best use of this mans skills in trying to keep the country safe?
Petition signed.
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From what I know of the British military in general and special forces in particular (the latter of course not much because I'm not a soldier myself) they are automatically disciplined and careful in the handling of firearms, crazed nutters excepted. I would judge other West European nations' behaviour as pretty similar.
No doubt US forces are disciplined too in principle, but American attitudes to firearms are a bit different.
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>> unable to return the rifles to the armoury so we
>> would take them home with us on the bus.
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We used to try and purloin a few cartridges during exercises. They traded for cigarettes and other schoolboy essentials. Live rounds were obviously worth more than blanks. I've probably still got some somewhere. Sorting my father's things a few years ago I found that he too had a tobacco tin kept from schooldays with some old ammo in it.
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This issues was raised in the House of Common yesterday.
In brief the Solicitor General advised that it was not the place of the House to overturn the results of a trial and that the correct course of action was a legal appeal.
"The Solicitor-General: But the first point I would make is that this is a particular offence—that of possessing a prohibited weapon, which we have said as a Parliament is an extremely serious matter. There were exceptional circumstances in this case; this is an exceptional man. However, if we want to challenge the decision of a court once it has been made—not at the beginning, when deciding whether to prosecute, but when the court has found the man guilty and sentenced him to a period of detention in a military facility—then I am afraid that has to be an appeal. That is our process; that is what we do in this country. We do not have politicians telling the independent judiciary—or, indeed, the independent prosecuting authorities—what to do. Much as I have a great deal of sympathy and understand the situation with this officer, I personally do not think that we can go around breaking important rules of that sort in this country.
Question put and agreed to."
Full transcript t of proceedings" - scroll to 7.1 pm
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm121120/debtext/121120-0004.htm
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>> This issues was raised in the House of Common yesterday.
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>> In brief the Solicitor General advised that it was not the place of the House
>> to overturn the results of a trial and that the correct course of action was
>> a legal appeal.
Hard to disagree with that.
If politicians are going to overturn verdicts and sentences of properly constituted courts, where will it stop?
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I presumed that the way the peition ended - "did not warrant a custodial sentnce (sic)" - does not rule out, say, a severe reprimand instead.
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Danny Nightingale's sentence appeal is before the Court of Appeal 'not before' 14:30 today.
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/29/danny-nightingale-appeal-jailed-soldier
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Released from custody with a 6 month suspended sentence. Result of sorts.
Unfortunately as SAS personnel enjoy a degree of anonymity his face is now plastered across the media.
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Not a surprising result really.
I'm sure he'll be found a posting somewhere.
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Or asked to leave.If I was him find something else to do.Somebody will stick the knive in again.
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>> Released from custody with a 6 month suspended sentence. Result of sorts.
>>
>> Unfortunately as SAS personnel enjoy a degree of anonymity his face is now plastered across
>> the media.
He was never going back into the SAS anyway, on medical grounds if nothing else.
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TV clip I saw yesterday showed him walking with an arm round someone older, his father perhaps. The one who seemed to need help was him, although it was hard to tell. Is he a sick man, and is whatever it is the result oof the charity run or swim that gave him the memory loss?
No doubt some hack will write the full story some time. Information is scrappy so far seems to me.
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Please sig this petition if you wish to - Ambo
