Does increasing the weight in the boot of RWD cars actually help traction when the snow and ice comes?
If so, how much weight is needed?
Thanks.
|
>> If so, how much weight is needed?
About the weight of an engine should do it.
|
Logically it should, though I have to say I've 'survived' a number of snowy winters in BMWs without filling the boot with bags of cement and still made into wherever I was trying to get too!!
Not sure how the newer ones cope on 19" wheels though. I had a couple of E61s in a row, an M Sport on 18" wheels (525d auto) followed by an SE on 17" wheels (535d) and the smaller/narrower tyres on the 535d were noticeably better
|
>>
>> Not sure how the newer ones cope on 19" wheels though. I had a couple
>> of E61s in a row, an M Sport on 18" wheels (525d auto) followed by
>> an SE on 17" wheels (535d) and the smaller/narrower tyres on the 535d were noticeably
>> better
>>
+1 my E91 330d on 225x17 tyres was perfectly acceptable in the snow
|
|
Going back a fair few years when my Dad had a couple of Hillman Imps, a bag of sand in the front boot helped even out the rear biased weight distribution. Put more weight over the steering, and made the steering better in snowy/icy conditions.
|
|
In my old mans MkIV Zephyr, one bag of circle cement was deemed to be the required ballast.
|
I had a Mk 2 Escort in the winter of 78/79, lots of snow in the Pennines. I went to the builders merchants and put two bags of sand in the boot. Vast improvement.
I went to Edinburgh for four weeks in the January, and lent the car to a colleague whose car was off the road. He complained when I got back that the headlights were very badly adjusted unless you were a plane spotter. He had never looked in the boot.
Didn't do much for the acceleration mind - about 45bhp in the 1100.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 7 Nov 12 at 23:59
|
|
According to the local farmers, about the weight of a dead sheep
|
|
However many X1 winter tyres I can fit into the boot of the 3 Series...
|
It's not the weight in the car boot, it's the weight of your right boot that makes the difference...
:-)
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Thu 8 Nov 12 at 07:22
|
|
The weight of a shovel, old carpet and a tow rope.
|
>It's not the weight in the car boot, it's the weight of your right boot that makes the difference...
And not only your own right boot.
When snow brought Basingstoke to a standstill a few years ago my biggest problem was negotiating my way around all the other cars going nowhere at great revs.
It was only my unsurpassed driving skills that allowed me to get home safely and park the car in the middle of the lawn on top of Mrs K's favourite rose bushes.
:-)
|
|
Saved you the trouble of pruning them.
|
|
For some reason she didn't quite see it that way.
|
>> According to the local farmers, about the weight of a dead sheep
>>
Or four dead badgers.... not as uncommon a cargo in rural areas as one might suspect. ;-)
|
>> >> According to the local farmers, about the weight of a dead sheep
>> >>
>>
>> Or four dead badgers.... not as uncommon a cargo in rural areas as one might
>> suspect. ;-)
Yeah but how do you get home once you have dumped all the weight on the side of the road?
|
|
I've been trying to recall my physics lessons. I wonder whether the effect of the additional load on the driving wheels might be cancelled out by the extra tractive force required to accelerate the additional mass at the point that movement begins.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 8 Nov 12 at 08:34
|
I think you'd be right if it only had one axle.
I can tell you that that a cwt in the boot of a MK 2 Escort makes a big difference.
|
>> I think you'd be right if it only had one axle.
>>
>> I can tell you that that a cwt in the boot of a MK 2
>> Escort makes a big difference.
>>
Your Wallet Sir?
|
>> >> I can tell you that that a cwt in the boot of a MK
>> 2
>> >> Escort makes a big difference.
>> >>
>> Your Wallet Sir?
If only. I have joined the ranks of the self-employed for now. Two days work this week :-)
I've just about covered my set up costs. Need to buy a laptop, must solicit some advice here...
|
>> I can tell you that that a cwt in the boot of a MK 2
>> Escort makes a big difference.
>>
If you're going to put 1 cwt in the boot, choose 1 cwt of rock salt ready for if you do get stuck.
|
1 cwt of rock salt ready for if you do get stuck.
Mind that salt L'es....nasty stuff for a snail.
|
The total mass of the vehicle increases but over the driven wheels there is a comparatively greater increase so traction is likely to benefit.
Not fitting tyres that are basically foot-wide racing slicks helps a lot too.
|
>>
>> Not fitting tyres that are basically foot-wide racing slicks helps a lot too.
>>
I remember riding in a 1940s Alvis many years ago. It had enormous wheels with narrow tyres, and ploughed through snow a foot deep without the slightest difficulty.
|
All Season Tyres you don't need anything else.
If there good enough for the Europeans to use there good enough for me.
|
>> All Season Tyres you don't need anything else.
>>
>> If there good enough for the Europeans to use there good enough for me.
>>
They're not recommended for use in alpine countries, where there is a higher probability of extended periods of conditions for which winter tyres are specifically designed.
|
>> >>
>> They're not recommended for use in alpine countries, where there is a higher probability of
>> extended periods of conditions for which winter tyres are specifically designed.
>>
Yes thats fine but in Britain we don't get alpine conditions but we do get several weeks of snow and cold weather were all season tyres could help motorists rather than buy winter spec tyres and have to change them when the temp is above 7c.
|
>>Yes thats fine but in Britain we don't get alpine conditions but we do get several weeks of snow and cold weather were all season tyres could help motorists rather than buy winter spec tyres and have to change them when the temp is above 7c.<<
That's what 'my tyres' are - all/four season jobbies = Nokian WRG2, I've had them on continuously for 1.5 years.
All I need now - is some snow.
|
>> Yes thats fine but in Britain we don't get alpine conditions but we do get
>> several weeks of snow and cold weather were all season tyres could help motorists rather
>> than buy winter spec tyres and have to change them when the temp is above
>> 7c.
>>
That was exactly the point I was making, Bigtee. Your previous post had asserted that "if [all season tyres] are good enough for the Europeans, they're good enough for us". They're not good enough for Europeans in alpine areas, but as you say, they are ideal for the UK with our more temperate climate and only occasional snow.
Last edited by: Mike H on Fri 9 Nov 12 at 08:29
|
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> Not fitting tyres that are basically foot-wide racing slicks helps a lot too.
>> >>
>>
>> I remember riding in a 1940s Alvis many years ago. It had enormous wheels with
>> narrow tyres, and ploughed through snow a foot deep without the slightest difficulty.
>>
I had an Austin A30 as a student. It was basically clapped out but had Town and Country tyres on the rear wheels.
I was the last driver through the Aberdeen to Montrose coast road in a snowstorm.. powered (if that is the correct word for the 30bhp when new from its 803cc engine ) through the snowdrifts with ease. The Rover 2000 behind me (RWD) got stuck and that was it : the raod was announced "closed" that hour.
No need for weight in the rear : it was properly balanced unlike BMWs..:-)
|
>> I remember riding in a 1940s Alvis many years ago. It had enormous wheels with
>> narrow tyres, and ploughed through snow a foot deep without the slightest difficulty.
>>
For go-anywhere ability you can't beat a 6x6 Alvis Salamander.
|
>> I've been trying to recall my physics lessons. I wonder whether the effect of the
>> additional load on the driving wheels might be cancelled out by the extra tractive force
>> required to accelerate the additional mass at the point that movement begins.
>>
Nope. On flat ground assuming car isn't axle deep it'll make no difference.
|
|
It should improve traction, but may also increase the pendulum effect if you are cornering and it does break away.
|
1 cwt or so in the boot will make a world of difference, but only if the car is shod sensibly, elastic band summer slick tyres whether front rear or all wheel drive are all but useless for ice and snow.
Its not just RWD either, a row of new Mini's at Cowley in about 4" of the stuff, some shod on sensible tyres, Ones, some shod on slicks, upmarket models....those on sensible tyres drove out of the rows fine forwards, those on slicks failed to move forwards at all but by reversing them all the way round (making them RWD) at least they would grip of a fashion.... parking lanes not gritted, loading area was.
I don't put anything extra in my old MB's boot, however the weight of the LPG tank when full probably makes best part of a cwt, winter tyres do the rest.
|
OK I'll bite.
F= mu.R is probably a bit simplistic for this situation; but basically, the available friction will increase by the same proportion as the added weight is of the original axle weight at the rear.
1. Yes the car will have extra mass, but the %age increase in total mass of the car will be less than the %age increase in friction at the driving wheels (since not all of the weight is on them).
2. To the extent that the problem is overcoming the snow in front of the tyres - which you can't just remove once you are rolling - the extra weight doesn't increase the effort required at all. It just gives you more grip at the driven axle so you are better off.
In any case, after my 1978/79 experiment, I am in absolutely no doubt that it works whether the theory does or not. That car was unusable without it (there are hills in Huddersfield, modulating the right foot is not enough).
Oddly one of the worst cars I had in the snow when I lived there was a FWD Audi 100. I occasionally reversed up hills in that because it wouldn't go forwards.
About the best was the boss's Saab 96.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 8 Nov 12 at 18:55
|
|
When people in the old days (<1999) used to open the boot and neighbours/passengers used to sit on the tailgate it sure seemed to used to make an instant difference.
|
>> About the weight of an engine should do it.
So buy a Porsche :)
>> All Season Tyres you don't need anything else.
They wear too fast. I'm using them now (in my FWD car though) but won't buy again.
In spite of all the marketing and Top/Fifth Gear make you believe, FWD cars are better in day to day lives.
If you really need to put weight on rear wheels, just offer free ride to some burly passengers on rear seat.
Last edited by: movilogo on Fri 9 Nov 12 at 10:55
|
Anybody tried these things? -
www.snowchainsandsocks.co.uk/s-grip-snow-socks-medium.html
I've been thinking of getting a pair.
|
You have to put them first.
Once you have past snowy roads, you need to take them out (they will tear into pieces on tarmac roads)
Then when you face snow again, you need to put them on again.
How funny is that?
|
>>>>> All Season Tyres you don't need anything else.... They wear too fast
They don't all.
Mrs F's Citroen C3 was fitted with 4 Kleber Quadraxers (all season with Euro winter snowflake rating) at 36,757mls. New they measured 8mm. At 45,374mls they were 7mm front and rear. Recently measured them at 57,192mls... 5mm front, 6mm rear.
So even changing at the 4mm often advised for "winter" tyres they would have lasted about 27,000 front & 43,000 rear.
Leave them like a normal tyre to 2mm and they will have done really well at over 40,000 on the front and 60,000 rear.
That's excellent.
|
Snowflake and three peaks too.
Perfectly ok in DE, where the plod are Rottweilers for making sure that you have the correct winter tyres on.
As for other European countries, I doubt it's winter performance that's the issue. Your all seasons (as you pointed out) have to be ditched earlier to maintain their winter grip (I think the minimum is 3mm, not 4). Thus, having summers and winters wrings more life out of the tyres as you can take the summers down to the wear markers and a summer / winter set will outlast two sets of all-seasons.
Most places on the continent are populated by people who make the Scots look profligate....
|
>>
>> In spite of all the marketing and Top/Fifth Gear make you believe, FWD cars are
>> better in day to day lives.
>>
Sorry, I can't agree - certainly not if your car is powerful (say >140PS). Most of my cars have been FWD, it's fine and undoubtedly better in the snow and for overall packaging I wouldn't argue with you. However the rest of the time a modern RWD car (ok, I mean BMW or Merc) is much more pleasant to drive, it simply is - the handling balance is better and you can 'feel' it in everyday motoring without driving like a TV car show presenter - exiting roundabouts, making a quick exit from a side road are two examples which come immediately to mind, any situation where you need to accelerate and steer simultaneously.
Like anything I guess it's subjective, but I prefer RWD so would contest your statement.
|
>> >> exiting roundabouts, making a
>> quick exit from a side road are two examples which come immediately to mind
Examples of BMW drivers cutting you up, mostly. I think I understand what's happening now, it's not cutting you up, it's taking advantage of the superior characteristics of rear wheel drive. I will look upon them more kindly in future.
;-)
|
>> >> >> exiting roundabouts, making a
>> >> quick exit from a side road are two examples which come immediately to mind
>>
>> Examples of BMW drivers cutting you up, mostly. I think I understand what's happening now,
>> it's not cutting you up, it's taking advantage of the superior characteristics of rear wheel
>> drive. I will look upon them more kindly in future.
>>
>> ;-)
>>
Yeh, yeh (sic)....
I was actually referring to my new Golf VI TSi which has 160PS and activates the traction control with surprisingly regularity (we often have wet roads here, funny camber angles and tram lines to contend with). I don't recall my 330d with 2x the torque and 60% more power as invoking the traction control very often and I don't think I drive much differently.
Round here it's immaculate blingy ute's (derived from obscure V8 cars from Ford and Holden) which do the cutting up ;-)
|
I hope that there aren't any people on here who remember what I've said about RWD in the past, but they will be laughing at me now. **embarrassed**
idle_chatter is right in his comments on this thread in my opinion. In particular on the issue of traction control.
With my sedate driving style, I can count on the fingers of one hand the times when my last RWD car broke traction (in almost 5 years). My FWD car does that several times every week - and this is with an engine which seems only just about adequate for the car's weight.
It means that a safe gap for emerging from junctions has gotten bigger, and in modern traffic those gaps are getting rarer.
It's frustrating, but the car has many other strengths and no car is perfect. I'm just sayin' :-)
P.S. And to my surprise I haven't found my FWD car any better on snow either - marginally worse, in fact.
|
I get in trouble for making a version of this comment every year about this time so in the spirit of tradition here goes again !
In my opinion, the only advantage of FWD over RWD in low traction conditions is at the point of moving from rest to slow forward motion. After that, give me RWD every time. Speaking purely personally, I find controlling a wayward back end of a vehicle much more intuitively easy than controlling an errant front end.
Others may have different preferences. I know mine.
Carry on !
:-)
|
|
in answer to the OP I have a 520d Touring which was less than useless on snow and Ice. I tried adding some bags of tarmac I had lying arround and it made no difference. I bought some snow socks which were brilliant, getting me through some very sticky situations. Lasted well too, but yes, there are situations when getting them on and off was awkward. I then invested in winter tyres last year and these were fine, although the weather was no-where near as bad as in the previous two, so they were not given much time to shine. The wear rate has been suprisingly good.
|
In my youth, when most cars were rwd, I remember some people claiming that a hundredweight bag of sand in the boot of a chubby Mk 1 Ford Zephyr/Zodiac improved its traction. The car was certainly a bit tail-happy without it, but I wasn't wholly convinced that the weight made it any better although I didn't get the chance to check it myself.
From the viewpoint of efficiency alone there's something fundamentally stupid about adding extra weight to a vehicle. I used to do it in the front boot of a couple of my Skoda Estelles in the hope that it would improve their wet-road braking, and also to give them a more dignified road stance (without their noses in the air). But carrying dead weight went against the grain. Why have an economical car and then make it less economical for no really good reason?
In the winter of 1962/3 (I think) when much of the country was covered in snow for weeks and the roads were very Scandinavian with deep packed snow, my hired Vauxhall Victor, with nothing much in the boot, drove properly, if a bit hairily, up hill and down dale while more powerful cars were all over the place and often uncontrollable. Low power, light weight and wide-ish tyres seemed to make it all right. Only had to stop once, when a drizzle coated the snow with black ice and the car kept slipping down the camber and couldn't be driven in a straight line.
|
Anyone who droves a RWD car round here in the winter without snow tyres is not an idiot : they are a stuck idiot.
RWD is absolutely useless in muddy fields: I have had great fun watching BMW owners incapable of moving 1 metre . Their cars with expensive wide tyres ARE good at ploughing holes - in one place only.
So if you go anywhere without tarmacked parking in a rwd car and it rains and you are facing uphill.. call a tractor
As for rwd on icy roads, give us a twirl!.
Last edited by: madf on Fri 9 Nov 12 at 15:27
|
Back in 1987-88 when i worked in the tyre industry we sold a tyre called Stomil from Poland the popular tyres were the 155x13 or 155 80 13 as they are now and the 165x13 god these were great in the snow plus due to them been narrow like 155x13 155mm wide cuts through snow like a hot knife through butter.!, We sold thousands of these as a company and couldn't get enough of them.
Todays 215 tyres plus need some help in the winter grip i laugh too at RWD mercs and bmw trying to get traction i did try to tell my mate about all season tyres at least for his winter grip but the tight sod went for a cheaper tyre on his 2010 merc ho well be nice to watch in the snow. :-)
|
Interesting comments guys and thanks.
FWIW my bmw has the skinniest tyres that you can get on the 5 series now, 225's. I think the M Sports come with 275’s which seems a bit excessive for a 2.0 diesel. I also have some snow socks for emergency use.
I don't plan on using them to get out and about, just if I get stuck whilst out and about.
In fairness my last Merc c class had very wide ultra low profile tyres and I never got stuck in that. Careful throttle got me going every time.
Let's see how bad this winter is.
Last edited by: a900ss on Fri 9 Nov 12 at 22:40
|
If this winter is like 2009/2010 or 2010/2010 I know my car will suffer. It's got 18" wheels, low profile etc. The previous car struggled at times in the winters I mention and that had only 16" wheels.
Thankfully I work from home a lot and my wife's car might be better if I need to use it for local trips. It has 165/55 R13 rims. If it was bad for long enough I'd demand winter tyres... Cheaper than an accident.
|
Going to put a set of Michelin Alpins on the FRV. The Swift can keep its summer rubber.
That way I can use her car for work if the roads are bad (when she won't be using it anyway) and we'll not have any problems getting about as a family.
That should guarantee a winter even milder than last year...
|
>> That should guarantee a winter even milder than last year...
I appreciate all the effort. Even went up to Glasgow/Edinburgh last Feb in this car. 18" rims with low profile and wide are not the best for grip when cold/wet. Or just cold. Or probably just wet.
|
The compound and tread pattern are more important than the actual size.
It's just that most mainstream low profile tyres have compound/pattern for dry warm tarmac.
|
A lad up the street has a old Landy 110 he took it out in the snow and got stuck.!!
He was in 2wd till a passerby said stick it in 4wd lad and when he did of course it was off.!!
Gets me thinking i would like a 110 or a 90 just for fun in the mud/snow. :-)
|
>> He was in 2wd till a passerby said stick it in 4wd lad and when
>> he did of course it was off.!!
>>
You hear many comments about Landy's being agricultural and simple.
Obviously not as simple as some of their owners.
|
>>
>> >> He was in 2wd till a passerby said stick it in 4wd lad and
>> when
>> >> he did of course it was off.!!
>> >>
>>
>>
>> You hear many comments about Landy's being agricultural and simple.
>>
>> Obviously not as simple as some of their owners.
Yeah - clearly wrong person in the wrong car.
|
|
I remember a similar experience someone complaining that something was wrong, i could see him dropping further back, he got on the radio saying he was flat out in 5 th at 15 mph ...
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 10 Nov 12 at 11:21
|
The Octavia vRS has 18" wheels with 225/40 tyres - similar to RTJ's Passat, by the sound of it. In 40 years of driving FWD cars the vRSs have been the first to be no good in snow - clearly down to the low-profile tyres.
Good to hear from Fenlander that Kleber Quadraxers last a long time. I have a set of these on 16" steel wheels which will go on the Octavia soon for their second winter: last winter I found a negligible difference in handling and a slightly softer ride compared with the original equipment Continentals.
|
BMW - RWD + snow + weight in boot = traction? - Zero
