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Ongoing discussion about recent and past revelations (or should that be now, then, now, then, now, then?)
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 11 Oct 12 at 21:31
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I think it's completely unfair of someone to make allegations about Sir jimmy Savile now that he's dead and can't defend himself. The best thing for his relations to do is ignore it all and let it fade away.
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The whole point L'Es is that there are people alive now that new what was going on and turned a blind eye.
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Need to take in it the context of the 70s which was quite different from now, as people are alluding to somewhere above. Doesn't make it right but I do think that no-one will come out winners.
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Maybe he should be exhumed and put on trial, as an example to others.
If he was cremated though, I'm sure there's someone who could fix it.
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>> Maybe he should be exhumed and put on trial, as an example to others.
You might think it was impossible to find someone guilty when they are dead, since they can hardly have a fair trial.
The Tory MP for Shipley, Philip Davies, thinks otherwise and wants Savile de-knighted.
Shameless grandstanding, and presumably not what he has been elected for.
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>> wants Savile de-knighted.
>>
I agree it would be a invidious and practically difficult to organise a posthumous witch hunt resulting in deprivation of an award.
However, there is a growing movement to re-evaluate past events, to the extent of making posthumous awards, even a century after the events in question, and also of encouraging individuals and entire countries to feel guilty about and apologise for acts committed by their ancestors and predecessors.
No element of "fair trial" is involved in these processes, and the outcomes appear to depend on the combined influences of media and lobby pressure, the grinding of axes, and current political agendas.
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>>>However, there is a growing movement to re-evaluate past events, to the extent of making posthumous awards, even a century after the events in question, and also of encouraging individuals and entire countries to feel guilty about and apologise for acts committed by their ancestors and predecessors.<<<
Could be the start of a long and slippery slope? There must be a few 'war heroes' who would stand to loose their awards for what would probably be now perceived as war-crimes. Ah, but thereagain, the winning side does not do warcrimes does it!
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A lot of women are now saying they were abused when underage or near enough by the ghastly Savile and others.
But in the sort of bandwagon that has appeared, some people including the very amusing Sandi Toksvig have been muddying the waters by complaining about something different: the male chauvinist 'locker-room' atmosphere and coarse bullying behaviour by some individuals in some media offices (and offices in general actually) during the sixties and seventies, leading to unpleasant gropings from senior colleagues.
These were young adult women at the time and probably had a fair idea of what they might be in for, as well as being capable of dealing with it. Not at all the same as a star-struck child being jumped on by some old nonce in a car.
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After the Jimmy Savile exposure more and more stories are coming out of abuse at the BBC.
Statements by a Mr G. Gopher and a Mr E. Duck reveal that in the 80's they both sexually abused in a broom cupboard, while Andy Peters watched!
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....and Zippy's been told to keep his mouth....well...zipped !
Ted
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Plenty of sexual innuendo in Rainbow. But it's wrong to joke about what Savile might have been up to. Rumours for a long time I know. But to be a presenter on Jim'll Fix It etc make me a little sick to be honest. I watched that as a child.
... it will come out in the open soon enough.
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Stephanie Flanders, the well-informed man's crumpet, rabbited convincingly about something or other for four minutes straight on Newsnight tonight.
As well as being able to do that, she looks to me like the sort of person you would want to star in your next martial arts movie, if you were one of these Oriental schlock movie men. Good looking, strong voice and she looks fit too in the conventional muscle-tone sense. A double could do the cartwheels and handsprings.
She holds her head on one side at the moment but a Kung Fu master would soon batter that out of her, while rabbiting for eleven minutes straight to demonstrate superiority.
If anyone here takes up this idea I will expect a finder's fee.
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I preferred her father singing "The Hippopotamus Song"
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I hope you're not suggesting that my blood needs cooling CGN.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 8 Oct 12 at 23:39
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According to Wikipedia she "previously dated Ed Balls and Ed Milliband" One would rather like to think not.....
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>> According to Wikipedia she "previously dated Ed Balls and Ed Milliband" One would rather like
>> to think not.....
>>
Probably Ed-ited out of her life now.
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Mud, mud glorious mud.
Her father would be pleased that she was on Gnusnight
"I'm a gnu—a-g-nother gnu
I wish I could g-nash my teeth at you"
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>>However, there is a growing movement to re-evaluate past events, to the extent of making posthumous awards, even a century after the events in question, and also of encouraging individuals and entire countries to feel guilty about and apologise for acts committed by their ancestors and predecessors.
No element of "fair trial" is involved in these processes, and the outcomes appear to depend on the combined influences of media and lobby pressure, the grinding of axes, and current political agendas.<<
Who was it once said about Russia that a major problem lay in foretelling the past?
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Not sure Mike Smith has done himself any favours by defending the 'attackers' at Radio 1 - might have been better to keep quiet for now:
tinyurl.com/8njcf53 (Mail)
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J Saville is six feet under now.Stripping him of his knighthood will be next but what will it achieve.The people who knew he was messing about should have come forward.They where covering their own careers don't rock the boat syndrome.
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>> Not sure Mike Smith has done himself any favours by defending the 'attackers' at Radio
>> 1 - might have been better to keep quiet for now:
>> tinyurl.com/8njcf53 (Mail)
I saw that report too and thought same thing.
What Liz K & Sandi Toksvig have said is about a working culture that was prevalent until the mid eighties. It may be the same culture deemed the 'groupie' thing around DJ's acceptable and allowed rumours about Savile to be ignored.
Smith has made himself look like a dinosaur.
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>> Smith has made himself look like a dinosaur.
I wonder if he's discussed this with his wife, Sarah Greene? I wouldn't be surprised if she'd had some of the same sort of attention as Liz Kershaw and Sandi Toksvig (and Vanessa Feltz apparently).
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>> >> (and Vanessa Feltz apparently).
>>
Felt what ?
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>> >> >> (and Vanessa Feltz apparently).
>> >>
>>
>> Felt what ?
:)
"Vanessa Feltz has claimed she was groped by a ‘married, avuncular, much-beloved national treasure’ while hosting a TV chat show in the mid-1990s.
The presenter, who at the time was working on ITV chat show Vanessa, and Channel 4’s The Big Breakfast, said that her guest put his hand up her skirt during a live interview, which left her feeling ‘humiliation and outrage’ even now."
tinyurl.com/8fd8uzp (Mail again)
EDIT: anyone know who might fit that description?
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 9 Oct 12 at 13:08
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Vanessa Feltz? Oh dear God.
Let the poor, married, avuncular, much-beloved national treasure alone. He's got some nasty stuff to try to forget.
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Vainessa Fatz? No way, load of bullcarts, no fellla would ever consider it.
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>> (and Vanessa Feltz apparently). >>
Oh God, no - mind bleach, quickly!
Last edited by: Roger on Tue 9 Oct 12 at 13:44
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The poor married avuncular presenter chap may well have put his hand up Feltz's felt for a dare. But I bet he didn't get far with those thunder thighs up there!
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None of these revelations about Savile has caused me to change my mind about him - I always did think that he was an odious creep.
I'm not sure about the latest cry to 'strip him of his knighthood'. We're opening a can of worms there once we start this kind of analysis - what about all the discredited bankers, politicians etc who have been shown to be less than honest after being ennobled? Where would we stop? The only thing we can do is to give away honours with a good deal more caution - or cease to give them out at all.
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>> what about
>> all the discredited bankers, politicians etc who have been shown to be less than honest
>> after being ennobled?
Lord Archer, perhaps?
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>> Lord Archer, perhaps?
Didn't he get re-ennobled, or did I imagine that? Possibly it was he who imagined it!
Leaving aside civil service time servers, government cronies, and Nobel prizewinning scientists I should think that a good proportion of knighted and ennobled greasy pole merchants and entertainers have skeletons they'd like to stay in the cupboard.
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Naah - sadly they can't strip Archole if his title.:
Archer can keep his peerage as it is a life peerage rather than "an honour under the Crown".
I particularly liked his Prison Diaries, though was saddened that there wasn't a chapter about him being sodomised in the showers.
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>> I particularly liked his Prison Diaries, though was saddened that there wasn't a chapter about
>> him being sodomised in the showers.
>>
Wouldn't surprise me if it did happen... he'd sell everything else for attention.
As for the 70's; much said about Saville, and I do not wish to trivialise the allegations, but this was the era of the "teeny-bopper" remember; wall-to-wall hormones on TOTP, pubescent girls far less enlightened than todays teenagers but probably less accountable for their actions too for it was a far more innocent age.
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Some good points there;
What Haywain said, +1.
Especially...
>> give away honours with a good deal more caution
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>> I'm not sure about the latest cry to 'strip him of his knighthood'. We're opening
>> a can of worms there once we start this kind of analysis - what about
>> all the discredited bankers,
Already done
Sir Fred Goodwin was knighted in 2004 for his services to the banking industry. However, on 1 February 2012, Goodwin's knighthood was "cancelled and annulled" by the Queen on the advice of her government and the Honours Forfeiture Committee.
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>> Sir Fred Goodwin was knighted in 2004 for his services to the banking industry. However,
>> on 1 February 2012, Goodwin's knighthood was "cancelled and annulled" by the Queen on the
>> advice of her government and the Honours Forfeiture Committee.
which also surprised me though it shouldn't have, given the barefaced hypocrisy in Westminster.
Not that he didn't deserve a kicking, but he was clearly doing what was wanted of him at the time. I don't imagine they thought he did all the bad stuff after 2004.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19889974
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>> What next ?
>>
>> (mind you I can see why though)
>>
I would not be surprised if the site is attacked even though the headstones are removed.
One of the headstones bears the epitaph "it was good while it lasted"
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Savile cannot be stripped of his Knighthood because he is no longer a Knight. Membership of the order ceases when you die, Cameron is just humouring the tabloids.
Last edited by: Robin Regal on Tue 9 Oct 12 at 17:54
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...or ignorant of course....perish the thought.
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Putting aside the whether he did or didn't ,what is the point of a police investigation as the man is 6 ft under? It's not as if a case can be brought against him can it? I would rather my tax payers money be spent on something more useful.
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No investigation required, he was guilty apparently!
"At this stage it is quite clear from what women are telling us that Savile was a predatory sex offender," said Commander Peter Spindler, head of specialist crime investigations, in an interview with the BBC."
I suppose the investigation is into why nobody who could have did anything about it. Not much point in that either.
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Commander? What kind of position is that at the BBC?
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>> Commander? What kind of position is that at the BBC?
>>
Read it again, Mark ;-)
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I listened/heard an extended interview with the Met Police Commander on the radio - he was happy to conclude that that "Savile"(as he put it) was a predatory sex offender based on the independent accounts with striking similarities in their accounts. A reasonable conclusion I would wager. As regards this being an enquiry in the offending of a dead man, the Commander gave a credible reason as to why this was being done. Listen to what he says here:-
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19887653
and that's the reason why tax payers money is being spent on this.
Obviously there are live suspects as well, including the odious and totally obnoxious Paul Gadd - Fredde Star seems to have problems with his memory as well - odd that.
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Ta for link, worth a listen. Yes, looks like there's more to it beneath the surface.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19892258
Freddie Starr - comes across as a sad old man. (if not a little tired and emotional)
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>> I listened/heard an extended interview with the Met Police Commander on the radio - he
>> was happy to conclude that that "Savile"(as he put it) was a predatory sex offender
>> based on the independent accounts with striking similarities in their accounts. A reasonable conclusion
Saville is dead, the real and only question is "Why did the TWO previous police investigations get stuffed in the no further action folder"
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>> question is "Why did the TWO previous police investigations get stuffed in the no further action folder"
Because Jim fixed it.
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Dunno. Paid the victims off maybe ?
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>> Saville is dead, the real and only question is "Why did the TWO previous police
>> investigations get stuffed in the no further action folder"
>>
Boaz & Jabulon!
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I was wondering about that - mind you money speaks louder.
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Not likely.
And Masons are people too, you know. No more likely to condone this than anyone else, or any other group. Probably less, I'd say.
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>> > "Why did the TWO previous police
>> investigations get stuffed in the no further action folder"
>>
Very strange. Commander Whatsit just read up a few brief reports and felt able to make a public statement of his guilt, yet two presumably painstaking previous investigations found nothing worth pursuing.
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Guilty until proved innocent - makes a change...
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With the family removing the headstone (I'd thought it might be temporary when it was on the news last night - but it's permanent)... they must think he's guilty.
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>> With the family removing the headstone (I'd thought it might be temporary when it was
>> on the news last night - but it's permanent)... they must think he's guilty.
I don't think that follows.
But there's little chance of his reputation being restored now, whether he was a DOM, rapist, kiddie fiddler or none of those.
And given the fashion for emotional incontinence and vandalising anything that somebody on facebook tells you to, no chance of any monument remaining intact for many years to come.
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Bit of a waste! - Once all the inscriptions have been ground off the stones, they might as well re-skim them and re-use them. (which is "probably" what will happen!)
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>> they might as well re-skim them and re-use them. (which is "probably" what will happen!)
Depends whether the minimum thickness is reached when skimmed.
Mind you, if anyone found out they were palmed off with JS's 2nd hand Granite, I don't think they'd be very happy.
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>> they might as well re-skim them and re-use them. (which is "probably" what will happen!)
"We've taken it back to our yard in Leeds. We'll grind the inscription off and we will dispose of the memorial. It'll be broken up and just go to landfill," Mr Morphet said.
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I don't see why they have to grind the inscription off if they're just going to break up the memorial anyway.
It's a bit like having to remove the ink from paper before putting it through the shredder.
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I guess they're trying to minimise the appeal to souvenir hunters?
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>> The headstones are going to landfill
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19893373#
>>
It's an ill wind. At least the headstones provided employment for the people who made and erected them, and now they're going to provide employment for the people who are going to dispose of them. It wouldn't have been so productive if the deceased had been any old Tom, Dick, or Harry.
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>The only thing we can do is to give away honours with a good deal more caution - or cease to give them out at all.
I'd give Jessica Ennis one.
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Luckily (for her) she runs faster than you.
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>Luckily (for her) she runs faster than you.
Let no-one say I don't like the chase. I'm willing to give it a go - if she gives me a decent start. I'd still let her catch me though.
Last edited by: Kevin on Tue 9 Oct 12 at 21:58
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She will only need to make 50 metres on you, the Javelin will do the rest.
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What !??? She needs to carry an anti tank missile....?!
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They took a K away from Anthony Blunt, Keeper of the Queen's Pictures and, er, Soviet spy it turned out. But people are right to point out that there are lots of dodgy Ks, and peers too.
I learned from the comic today that the horrible Savile was proposed for the Athaneaum by Cardinal Basil Hume, Catholic primate of England. Heh heh.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 9 Oct 12 at 23:50
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Takes one to know one, eh?
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Actually, yes, it does. At least, under normal circumstances.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 10 Oct 12 at 01:10
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Does no one find it a remarkable coincidence that these 'victims' waited, not just until the guy was dead, but almost a year after he was buried, and also almost two weeks after his remaining estate was auctioned and the value of that estate was widely reported in the media?
Whatever happens, I pray to god that not one of these people receive a penny in compensation.
Last edited by: njgleeds on Wed 10 Oct 12 at 02:38
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>> I pray to god that not one of these people receive a penny in compensation.
What an unusual prayer. I wonder if it will be answered?
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I must admit AC that I thought your reaction to any mention of J Savile in this forum in the past was a bit OTT. Well, this all shows what a good judge of character you are.
Anyone else we should be watching out for? :)
Last edited by: Focus on Wed 10 Oct 12 at 17:48
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>> I must admit AC that I thought your reaction to any mention of J Savile
>> in this forum in the past was a bit OTT. Well, this all shows what
>> a good judge of character you are.
>>
I'll second that, though I'd previously imagined AC as being rather Savile-like in appearance.
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>> Does no one find it a remarkable coincidence
More to do with the timing of the documentary I think.
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>> Whatever happens, I pray to god that not one of these people receive a penny
>> in compensation.
From Leeds, are you? Is that a coincidence, I wonder?
Last edited by: Roger on Wed 10 Oct 12 at 07:53
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>> From Leeds, are you? Is that a coincidence, I wonder?
Lol, I'm afraid so, Roger. It's quite a big place, you know.....
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Yesterday's Daily Mail : "I understand the woman [Karin Ward] has a book coming out soon".
tinyurl.com/9g2szcx
I've no sympathy for the old roue, but coincidence?
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I too thought previous mentions of what he may have done/been upto were perhaps wrong. More hoping I guess. As a child brought up on programmes like Jim'll Fix It etc you kind of hoped someone had not got into that position with children and was up to no good.
No smoke without fire they say... so something probably happened and I find that sickening. If any are still alive that were involved then I hope they get into trouble over their wrong doing. Freddie Star was quick to deny being on a Savile programme and meeting a young girl... and then it turns out he did meet her on a Savile programme....
As for someone bringing out a book of their experience etc. That's wrong IMO too.
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I'm sure I read earlier on the Beeb, but can't find it now, that staff at Stoke Mandeville were supposedly overheard discussing him, and a forthcoming visit, and musing which patient he might take away to his flat at the hospital, and giving advice to a patient on how to avoid being "chosen".
The things which are coming out are totally bizarre.
I can imagine a handful of people maybe being to scared to come forward at the time, but if it was happening on the sort of scale indicated by the complaints then surely there would have been one stronger personality amongst them?
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>> and giving advice to a patient on how to avoid being "chosen".
Caught a bit of that just now on the 10pm news - a woman talking about hiding in bed until he'd gone I think.
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Something similar here, and it's not pleasant:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19905006
Of course it could be made up, but you don't get that impression watching it.
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Yorkshire specialises in formidable women - they talk straight.
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>> Yorkshire specialises in formidable women - they talk straight.
When they talk at all. Not much chance of the boss wearing her vocal chords out.
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>> >> Yorkshire specialises in formidable women - they talk straight.
>>
>> When they talk at all. Not much chance of the boss wearing her vocal chords
>> out.
They dont need to, one look will strike you to stone.
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>> I'm sure I read earlier on the Beeb, but can't find it now, that staff
>> at Stoke Mandeville were supposedly overheard discussing him, and a forthcoming visit, and musing which
>> patient he might take away to his flat at the hospital, and giving advice to
>> a patient on how to avoid being "chosen".
Funny you should say that. I was in a pub in Central London from 17:00 to 18:15 tonight. Monster TV on wall but no sound, just the running text along screen Thought I saw a similar account but was trying to timeslice attention between TV and keeping up with gossip from colleagues.
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If the stories end up true, like the Stoke Manderville one, then why wasn't something done before now. i.e. when he was alive. If this is true then these staff are partly to blame for what was allowed to happen.
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>> If this is true then these staff are partly to blame for what was allowed to happen.
Hence the police investigation.
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>> I'm sure I read earlier on the Beeb, but can't find it now, that staff
>> at Stoke Mandeville were supposedly overheard discussing him, and a forthcoming visit, and musing which
>> patient he might take away to his flat at the hospital, and giving advice to
>> a patient on how to avoid being "chosen".
Mail: 'Pretend you're asleep, he's here: What Stoke Mandeville nurses told the patients when Savile came calling'
tinyurl.com/9sezwoo
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>> As a child brought up on programmes like Jim'll Fix It etc you kind of hoped someone had not got into that position with children and was up to no good.
That's the thing I really don't understand. How even the young and children didn't see something irredeemably naff and backward in everything the guy did, let alone their parents. Wasn't there just a suspicion sometimes that this was phoney, unsatisfying stuff?
I never had any suspicion of Savile's (still alleged) sexual shenanigans until they were rumoured, when they immediately seemed highly likely.
It's obvious though why the beeb protected him for so long. The carphound was a money pump. Not only did he get away with spreading worthless excrement over the landscape, he ramrodded all his shows with an iron hand - highly obvious to an observant person, and absolutely odious. He was a pro. How the hell it happened in the first place is beyond me though.
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>> They took a K away from Anthony Blunt,
>>
But he was alive when they did it.
The recent statement that you can't remove a title from a deceased person because the title has already lapsed can't be true. If it were then wives of knights would cease to be Ladies on their husbands' death. They haven't received any independent honour, the title derives purely from the husband.
So if the honour lives on after death, it can presumably be removed by decree.
Titles can even be taken away from people who aren't even born, if the holder of an hereditary title is attainted, as happened in 1917 to royalty and others of German origin.
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A young lady of my acquaintance was sent to interview him at Stoke Mandeville. She recalls being very uncomfortable in his presence despite being with another female colleague.
At Aylesbury station they saw him boarding the same train and hid until they could make sure they were a long way away.
SWMBO has a phrase: "would I feel comfortable being trapped in a lift with them"?
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The thing I don't understand is what the people who have made allegations against Jimmy Savile hope to achieve. What do they hope to gain?
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>> The thing I don't understand is what the people who have made allegations against Jimmy
>> Savile hope to achieve. What do they hope to gain?
Two modern terms spring to mind:
(1) Closure; and
(2) Somebody being held accountable.
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>> >> What do they hope to gain?
>>
>> Two modern terms spring to mind:
>>
>> (1) Closure; and
Yes, I imagine getting something like that off your chest, with someone who believes what you're saying, is quite therapeutic.
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(3) Perhaps they've got a book being published?
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>> >> The thing I don't understand is what the people who have made allegations against
>> Jimmy
>> >> Savile hope to achieve. What do they hope to gain?
>>
>> Two modern terms spring to mind:
>>
>> (1) Closure; and
>>
>> (2) Somebody being held accountable.
>>
I was thinking more along the lines of them hoping to gain notoriety, being able to name-drop, and possibly being paid by a newspaper or magazine for their story.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 11 Oct 12 at 13:44
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>> I was thinking more along the lines of them hoping to gain notoriety, being able
>> to name-drop, and possibly being paid by a newspaper or magazine for their story.
Did you watch the BBC news clip in the link I posted earlier?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19905006
I don't think she's doing it for any of the reasons you mention.
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“What do they hope to gain?”
I would think that many of the aggrieved women are now in their 50s – they aren’t scared 14 year-olds any more and they see that Jimmy Savile, feted as some sort of hero, has had the last word – those words on his headstone. I suspect that their motives aren’t the usual modern one of ‘compensation’, but of anger that JS would continue into history as an all-round good egg; if they didn’t speak out now, then the truth would never be known to history.
Though I was a teenager through the 60s, I never liked Jimmy Savile nor, for that matter, any of the DJs. They became fat and bloated with their own importance, seeing themselves as important as the artists who actually created the music; in fact, as a semi-pro musician myself, it would be truer to say that I despised them. I see this as the typical ‘middle man’ situation where the guy between manufacturer and customer, feeling rather insecure, has to ‘big himself up’ in order to survive and in the end becomes an arrogant parasite. [Yes, I worked in the manufacturing industry]
Jimmy Savile would probably have thought of himself as a popular entertainer but, strangely in conversations, I have never met anybody who actually liked him. He had the kind of persona that enabled him to skillfully maintain a position of prominence – like greedy bankers and thieving politicians. We generally continue let them get on with it but, like in the story of the king’s new clothes, somebody occasionally shouts ‘oi’.
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>>What do they hope to gain<<
I don't think it's about what they hope to gain, life isn't all about material things.
It must have been so hard to take seeing the people filing past his coffin, the funeral, the good words spoken and finally that headstone knowing how they were treated and that there was another darke side no-one dare talk about.
I would be indignant had I have been in that position and as Haywain says, thery are no longer young, ill or scared and feel quite rightly that the whole situation is wrong....in so many ways.
Pat
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BBC Chairman uses an interesting turn of phrase - " the "cesspit" of allegations".
Can be read that he thinks they stink a bit, but that's probably not what he meant.
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What did he mean?I can see Saville's body being dug up and moved to Leeds.
Scarborough might not want to be associated with Jim Savilles's memories.
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I think he'll have to be exhumed and cremated.
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>> What did he mean?
Presumably he was associating Savile's alleged behaviour with cesspits, rather than the allegations themselves.
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I have just seen and heard a witness description of Saville assaulting a girl in Leeds General. (the BBC new clip is only a short part of her testimony). I have no doubt, based on that and the believability of the witness that Saville is guilty as charged.
There are also reports of Nurses at Stoke Mandeville trying to protect those under their care from Saville.
Now the question is how did he get away with it? Its very easy to throw blame at those who knew (specially the nurses) for not bringing this to the attention of the authorities. That would be unfair, as clearly those people thought they could not make a difference. Blame instead must be attached to those who were in charge, who, for various reasons* did not provide the channel or procedure for the complaints to be raised.
I doubt it could happen now, because the golden rule (understood by all in the chain) for those who come into contact with minors or the vulnerable, is "Thou shalt not do nothing" Where it does happen now its where the victim falls through the cracks in the reporting structure.
*Fear of the loss of money and patronage probably.
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>>
>> Presumably he was associating Savile's alleged behaviour with cesspits, rather than the allegations themselves.
>>
Transferred epithet, I think I remember from O-levels long ago.
"He smoked a thoughtful cigarette" was the example I always liked.
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>> I can see Saville's body being dug up
They'll have to remove his concrete overcoat first.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-15717221
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This might be an appropriate moment to reflect on Paul Gadd, or Gary Glitter as he's better known.
We've all been repulsed for years by his actions, yet what we have here is far, far worse than anything he did, yet still we have people defending Jimmy Saville and those who allowed him to do it.
I wonder why?
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Thu 11 Oct 12 at 14:02
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>> ....... yet still we have people defending Jimmy Saville
>> and those who allowed him to do it.
I'd sooner believe the thousands of people who are able claim to have seen him doing good, than the few handfuls of people who allege to have seen him doing bad.
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Why not believe both? No doubt he did a lot for charity, but that doesn't preclude him from doing the bad stuff. Perhaps the charity work was a way of assuaging his guilt?
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The difference being Gadd has been tried based on real evidence and was found guilty in courts around the world while Saville's guilt is only presumed, by the press and police (and some of the general public), and much of that is hearsay rather than from actual victims.
Personally I have been a doubter all along, I have to admit there is an awful lot of accusations now coming out of the woodwork but I still like to see justice through the "system" rather than by popular demand.
Never really watched much of his stuff, just not my thing, but millions did, and enjoyed it for many years. His charity work was undeniably successful too. I suppose it won't be long before the claim surfaces that the hours and effort he put into that were purely designed to give him access, and gullible public will fall for that too. Much as Focus - "Perhaps the charity work was a way of assuaging his guilt". Well maybe, it's easy to fit stories after the event.
I've no doubt the Beeb and the hospitals are feeling exposed to risk of having to pay compensation to victims, if offences can be proven to have taken place on their premises and or with their knowledge. I.e. another possible revenue stream for the exposers?
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Jimmy Saville raised £40m for charities . Fact.
Jimmy Saville molested children. Allegation.
The score so far..
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madf puts my point much more succinctly :-)
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I would certainly like to have seen him tried for the alleged offences. But when the police are calling him a prolific sex offender based on the information they've got so far, you have to think there's some substance behind the allegations.
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I *do* agree but they can hardly say anything else, without appearing to be the Establishment turning a blind eye (again?) or preparing the whitewash.
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>> I *do* agree but they can hardly say anything else
Surely they can investigate someone (and say they are doing so) without actually saying they are guilty? Something along the lines of 'these are serious allegations and we have a team of X detectives following up all the leads we have been given'. I was quite surprised at the sex offender comment - as has been pointed out above it appears to bypass the 'innocent until proved guilty' approach which usually applies. Perhaps the chap who said it just got carried away.
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>> I *do* agree but they can hardly say anything else, without appearing to be the
>> Establishment turning a blind eye (again?) or preparing the whitewash.
They could be sued by the estate, and the trustees of the charity if the allegations were proven to be untrue.
There are many allegations, and its true a proportion may be after money, a proportion may be fantasist wannabe me too's but there are too many for it not to be true.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 11 Oct 12 at 15:37
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>> >> I *do* agree but they can hardly say anything else, without appearing to be
>> the
>> >> Establishment turning a blind eye (again?) or preparing the whitewash.
>>
>> They could be sued by the estate, and the trustees of the charity if the
>> allegations were proven to be untrue.
>>
>> There are many allegations, and its true a proportion may be after money, a proportion
>> may be fantasist wannabe me too's but there are too many for it not to
>> be true.
>>
>>
>>
SO if we all spread a rumour that some famous personage groped us all it must be true?
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>> SO if we all spread a rumour that some famous personage groped us all it
>> must be true?
If the stories all come from one place then a reasonable observer might be suspicious. If for example it could be shown a group of accusers with a common link, say a school, and the means to get in contact, say facebook, then it would look odd. More so if there was compo to be had from a 'negligent' local council.
What we have with Savile is a range of accusers from around the UK. Some from schools, some from his TV programmes and others from at least three hospitals. Some say they were victims but others witnessed stuff being done. Add to that fact that there were reports to three or four police forces and it all looks pretty convincing.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 11 Oct 12 at 16:18
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Ok madf, are you saying that JS did not do any of things about which he stands accused, or you don't believe any of them?
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It's an investigation not the trial of the corpse. There are institutional questions that need answers. NHS, BBC and the Police. The victims accounts deserve the matter to be aired. What people don't seem to have grasped is the enormity of it, nor grasped that allegations are being made against living people.
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There are accusers or a previously respected and honoured man;
If they are telling the truth, then they have been wronged and deserve at least recognition of that. Why they spoke up so late, is interesting but hardly significant. Maybe they should have spoken up earlier, but compared to the wrong done to them, that is trivial.
If they are lying, then the memory of Jimmy Saville, and those of his friends and family, deserve to have that stated and to be clear.
And if anyone else, or any other institution, is culpable, then that needs to be brought out and fixed.
I see no way of achieving that without an investigation.
The only thing that seems to be wrong is people acting upon assumption that he is guilty or that he is not when in reality they have no idea.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 11 Oct 12 at 16:32
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Jimmy Savile 1926 - 2011. - L'escargot
