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Well as far as I can see not a peep on here so far about the situation the country finds itself in... any thoughts?
I don't claim to be any sort of political expert... just an interested layman. Seems a disaster to me though at a time when clear direction was needed to balance the books amongst other things.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 9 May 10 at 12:10
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I would say the oppposite, its a clear opinion that no one party is trusted, or no one set of polticians is trusted. Thats a good message to put across.
Where we go from here I don't know though. From the Scottish point of view it is worrying if Cameron gets in. Forgetting party loyalties etc, if you are the prime minister and you know you only have one seat in Scotland and you are fighting a lost cause there, well why bother with them at all? If he needs any further direction on this, am sure Maggie will share her experiences.......
And if we have to go election again, can we do it on a text vote or something, I couldn't face going through all this nonsense again.
And, on side note, has anyone else heard the radio advert for Sky HD? A big build up of facts and figures to build on to their selling point that Sky HD was the only place that you would get the result in High Definition! Eh, hello, and who gives a monkeys about that???
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I see the present incumbent appears to be offering a referendum on electoral reform, erm, didn't he offer a referendum before?
Why am I bothering?
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I dislike this horse-trading a great deal. The Liberals are prostituting themselves, and Labour are offering things after the event that the electorate might not want, which is reprehensible.
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"Where we go from here I don't know though. From the Scottish point of view it is worrying if Cameron gets in. Forgetting party loyalties etc, if you are the prime minister and you know you only have one seat in Scotland and you are fighting a lost cause there, well why bother with them at all? If he needs any further direction on this, am sure Maggie will share her experiences......."
what gets me is Fishy Alex saying the SNP is now in a position of power to demand stuff from the national government.
Excuse me my old sweaty sock, but -
you got 1.7% of the vote, thats LESS then the BNP.
The SNP have NO part to play in mainstream UK elections. the same goes for PC who got less share of the votes than the greens. We are browned off with paying through the nose for our prescriptions so you can get yours free, so you can keep your jumped up overblown sense of your own importance out of mainstream politics. You have no mandate to do so.
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Perhaps the English need to nullify the act of union with the Scots or look towards a Federal Britain because after all - the Scots hate the English.
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>> Perhaps the English need to nullify the act of union with the Scots or look
>> towards a Federal Britain
Agreed.
>> because after all - the Scots hate the English.
Disagreed.
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Sky HD was the only place that you would get the result in High Definition!
I was watching on BBC HD - agreed the standard of debate was pretty low def - especially with the Brillo pad and even poor old paxo who seems to have lost the plot a little.
If Cameron pulls this off with the Lid Dems we might, just might get a good government.
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Fen, You may have got it right, the election is over now the war starts.
From BBC web site, from a polling clerk (is that the right title?) "Often the voters did not know who to vote for, but they were determined to vote." Laugh or cry?
JH
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That was me, in the booth with my slip of paper and still didn't know who to vote for.
My process of elimination started with the addresses of the candidates.....
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Bobby "My process of elimination started with the addresses of the candidates", good man, we want a local.
JH
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I too wasn't sure who I distrusted least until I got in the booth.
That's the first time you can really see where the candidates come from. In all the campaign literature they either ignore the point or use distraction tactics.
So I ended up voting for the candidate who actually lived in the constituency.
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>> So I ended up voting for the candidate who actually lived in the constituency.
>>
It doesn't really matter where the moat is, who is paying for the maintenance of it ?
An MP living in a 5000 acre pile in the constituency is not really going to see the same issues as someone living in a terrace.
Last edited by: gmac on Fri 7 May 10 at 16:55
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This did worry me a little because I had forgotten my A-Z and didn't know exactly where the roads were.
But they were all career politicians and I'm sure living in much larger homes than my 'umble terrace.
P.S. Next time I'll have to remember to take the A-Z or get one of these new fangled phones with the internet on and look at Google Streetview. :-)
Last edited by: crocks on Fri 7 May 10 at 17:22
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no wonder the queues were out the door in some places! :-)
JH
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I can assure you my conscience is clear. No queue when I got there and, more importantly, no queue when I left.
However I was amused by the Returning Officer for Sheffield Hallam, on the TV last night, blaming students for the queue. The university has been there for 100 years!!!
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I stayed up all night waiting for the results for Withington and they were not counted until 9:00am. The local election results have still not been counting.
It is a shambles.
Even the germans can do better than this.
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Rattle, "Even the germans can do better than this. " implies that the Germans aren't efficient!!. Now if you'd said "Greeks" maybe... :-)
JH
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It was just a daft reference to Fawlty Towers :).
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Hitler did anyway..
(there I got the H word in early)
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>>>(there I got the H word in early)
A little too early... should have been saved for around post 124 after a couple of warnings by the mods :-)
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I just cant seem to care about any of it. Any minor party that goes into coalition with Tories will actually have more power potentially than Labour. That seems a rather poor situation to me even though I detest Labour - atleast a fair few of the population voted for them.
I simply hate to think what the outcome will be - its unlikely to be democratic in the sense that the public will understand.
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>> I stayed up all night waiting >> counted until 9:00am. >>
>> Even the germans can do better than this.
>>
Didn't you take the trouble to find out when the votes in your constituency would be counted?
The Germans seem to do most things very well indeed - IMHO.
Last edited by: Duncan on Fri 7 May 10 at 14:36
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Yep, they were supposed to be counted at 3:30am, but it was delayed by nearly 6 hours.
I am a bit worried now because I will be worse off under a torrie government and my sister will also loose her job if they come into power. In fact all my mates will be unemployed by this time next year :(.
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>> I am a bit worried now because I will be worse off under a torrie
>> government and my sister will also loose her job if they come into power. In
>> fact all my mates will be unemployed by this time next year :(.
we will all be worse off, matters not who is in power. None of them have told you or I how bad the cuts have to be for us to get out of this crap. If your sister and mates are in public services, they would have lost their jobs under labour as well.
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R,
errr, why? Labour have just had a fake budget to avoid frightening the voters. Whoever is running the country there is a "real" budget to come. When (if?) we ever get out of this mess, would you prefer a government that spends 52% of GDP and taxes you in ever more ingenious ways, to pay for it, or one which believes that you know best how to spend your money and was spending only 40% of GDP? (Only?!).
Sorry to hear about your sister but you don't know that yet. I assume that she is a civil servant? We need 'em. We just don't need and cannot afford as many as we have. I had a civil servant TUPEd into my team back in the days when I worked. God help us if they're all like that is all I'll say and yes, I know that many are hard working. Many aren't. Just ask one of the hard working ones!
JH
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>> It is a shambles.
>>
>> Even the germans can do better than this.
>>
Errr... no they can't. A coalition is the norm in Germany.
As it is in the Nordic countries, the Benelux countries, Austria, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Turkey, Israel, New Zealand, Kosovo, Pakistan, Kenya, and India too.
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Ah Italy!
what a fine system of government to emulate..
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Who's the UK Berlusconi ?
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Lemon Optik. ( or what ever his name was)
Mind Jeffrey Archer came close
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 7 May 10 at 14:44
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After posing the question I did think Mandelson, swapping Sardinia for King's Cross...I'll leave it there I think. *shudder*
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Lembit Opik? Jeffrey Archole? Do me a favour Zero... neither of them is a billionaire media mogul like the rug-wearing* clown Berlusconi.
* They seem to be getting commoner here. Isn't John Major's barnet looking a bit razor-edged by normal hair standards? I dunno. Perhaps I'm just envious.
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Best picture of the night was close up of Jacqui Smith's face after she lost her seat. Not a happy bunny. Don't suppose she blames her husband though............
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Well I consider it extraordinary that Gordon is still PM when the Conservatives gained a greater share of the vote than Tony Blair did in 2005 and yet do not have a clear advantage.
How can Gordon , unelected as PM by any of us , the proleteriat ,claim any sort of mandate at all .
Why does he not get out his moral compass , set it to somewhere far away from Westminster and do the honourable thing and push off out of it now .
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And closer to home in Scotland and Wales which seem to work.
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>> I stayed up all night waiting for the results for Withington and they were not
>> counted until 9:00am. The local election results have still not been counting.
>>
That is what life with the Lib Dems is like.
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It is a labour council though, the only lid dem seat in Manchester is Withington.
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Strange, don't yout think, that the LibDems lose seats and gain power?
Had one of the others got their 326, the LibDems would have remained what they've always been - an irrelevance.
As regards the coverage, I only saw a bit of the BBC's, but people in the business tell me David Dimbleby did his usual sterling job.
ITV keep on hoping age will finally catch up on Dimbers, but it hasn't yet.
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>> Had one of the others got their 326, the LibDems would have remained what they've
>> always been - an irrelevance.
Which, as I'm sure they would point out, seems odd given the total % vote figures (currently):
Cons: 36.1
Lab::29.1
LD: 23.0
ie. there's not *that* much in it really.
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...there's not *that* much in it really...
Agreed, which, of course, is why the LibDems keep bleating about proportional representation.
If we had that, there would be endless coalitions, coalitions breakdowns and general elections - I believe Italy is a good example of this.
I strongly favour a system like ours that tends to produce a decisive result.
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Well thats what happens when all three main parties sing from the same hymnsheet offering up slightly tweaked versions of the same nonsense that got us where we are now.
Not one of them offered a single straight answer to any of the important questions, and not one of them deserved to win.
Frankly my dear i don't give a damn.
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The BBC highlighted the uneveness earlier today.
The wards are supposed to cover roughly the same number of people however the first result in was Sunderland and Houghton Labour 50.3% of the votes 19,137. Ribble Value Conservative 50.3% of the votes 26,298.
To get the same percentage the Conservatives had to get an extra 7000 votes. Now multiply that by 650 MPs.
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...To get the same percentage the Conservatives had to get an extra 7000 votes...
Er, isn't that just to do with turnout?
If everyone votes in a 100,000 population consituency, you would need 50,00 votes to get 50 per cent.
If ony 100 people voted, you would only need 50 votes to get 50 per cent.
Stand to be corrected - I've always found electoral arithmetic baffling.
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No, it means that Houghton has an electoratee of about 39,000 whereas Ribble Valley has an electorate of about 52,000. Very uneven distribution of electors.
I think the Scottish constituencies are even less so should have fewer MPs.
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Beat me to it.
Not that it really matters as whoever is in power always moves the lines to give themselves a better chance.
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>> No, it means that Houghton has an electoratee of about 39,000 whereas Ribble Valley has
>> an electorate of about 52,000.
Those figures are for the numbers who actually voted. The percentage turnouts were 55% in Houghton and 67% in Ribble Valley. On my arithmetic that gives an electorate of 69,000 in Houghton and 78,000 in Ribble Valley.
IIRC the nominal size for an English constituency is 70,000 but other factors such as keeping communities in the same constituency account for significnt variation.
The smallest constiuency in the UK is Western Isles, about 25,000.
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The Sun is really not terribly impressed by the turn of events as the UK deals with a hung Parliament. It's front page headline is "Squatter holed up in No 10" over a picture of Prime Minister Gordon Brown. "Man, 59 refuses to leave house in Downing Street"
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No one's listening Zero. It's just me and you.
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damn
i was going to do him in
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Had no trouble getting seen at my polling station. As I watched the coverage into the wee hours, there were numbers moaning they couldn't vote. The stations were open 15 hours. The students who descended at the last minute must have just woken up!
No, I think one day and a thursday is wrong. Spread the voting over a weekend in future. That way, more people will have a chance to vote, with no excuses about not being able to get to the polling stations.
Also why can't they use "lotto" style cards, that you mark next to a candidate, that are fed into a machine that counts the votes quicker and more accurately than the current system.
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How many people really know enough about politics to enable them to make an informed choice? Very few, I would imagine. Most people either vote for the same party every time, or for the other major party because they didn't like the existing Prime Minister personally, or for a minor party as a useless protest. Which category do you come into?
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The overwhelming impression from the lorry driving world last weekend was that the campaigning from ALL parties told them nothing about what that party would do, but centered on critisicm of what a. n. other party had done or would do.
It would seem to be that this was correct, given yesterdays result.
We now have the returning officers blaming everyone but themselves for what at best can be described as failing to do theitr duty.
And all this in an election where they wanted every working man to vote?
What a missed opportunity, both to gain votes and to see that people are able to cast that vote.
Pat
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Stepping into the polling station was like walking into dickensian world of men in suits, quil pens, ledgers and long lists of names.
Using the rickety wooden "booth", with its grubby pencil tied up with a length of string, reminded me how the recent election in Afghanistan looked. I expected them to daub my finger in ink so I couldnt vote again.
Come on, this is 2010, we can do better than this surely.
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We had a brand new plastic ballot box in place of the previous black-painted steel box.
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The number of people unable to vote was tiny - a few hundred, if that - compared to the millions that did.
It shoudn't have happened, and steps should be taken to make sure it doesn't happen next time.
But I think the authorities are entitled to draw on common sense on this one occasion.
It's fair to say that if the seat was won with a majority of several thousand, the missed votes would have made no difference.
Each of these citizens has been denied the option of recording their opinion, but the ballot is secret anyway.
Thank goodness we haven't got some ridiculously complicated system of proportional representation, because that could have been a mess.
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One common theme in the reporting of the "lock outs" was that it was left to patrol Constables to confront the unhappy masses - funny how the council officials seem melt away at the sign of trouble
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I've just seen a letter from someone that summarises the choice of party to vote for this time.
swmbo and you need to go somewhere tonight you only have a choice of three sitters for your two lovely daughters.....west, glitter and huntley.
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we do not need PR. As this election has proved.
If we had PR the count of seats would be thus.
Tory 235
Labour 190
Liberal 148
UKIP 20
BNP 12
SNP 11
Greens 7
This shows us several things.
The BNP would get 12 seats. Do you *really* want that?
and
The Tories, Labour, and Liberals would have to negotiate to achive power.
Which is exactly what we have now, so why do we need PR?
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>> Which is exactly what we have now, so why do we need PR?
Because the top three have colluded to hand over ever increasing power to the EU, now finalised by Lisbon, thats one compelling reason.
Under PR those that disagree with such get a say, it's called democracy.
British politics may be quite interesting for a while.
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but under PR you STILL get the same top three, UKIP aint getting anywhere even under PR
so PR changes nothing.
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But it does change things, under PR people can vote with their heart in what they believe knowing that their vote actually counts, not just voting tactically to get rid of the worst of three by replacing it with the best of a bad bunch.
If 20 milion people want out of the EU then those parties that support withdrawl will get more seats, it makes parliament more answerable.
We might actaully get some real policies in the future.
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you assume 20 million people want out of Europe? Dont forget we voted to go in. PR is not the utopia you want.
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where we need change is in local elections. Local councilors should be banned from aligning with national parties. there is no place for three party politics at a local level, but they should be encouraged to form alternate alliances to oppose national government and national government should (as now) have the power to penalise them if they overspend or overtax.
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Dont forget we voted to go
>> in. PR is not the utopia you want.
Funnily enough i met the first person admitting to voting yes to the common market recently, well he didn't but his dad did.
We as a nation didn't vote for a federal republic of europe, we voted to enter the common market, a shared simplified business market, from the days when we made things to sell.
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you have met the second. Me.
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"we voted to enter the common market, a shared simplified business market, from the days when we made things to sell."
Whilst often stated by the this is actually not correct. The aims of the Common market as stated in the government pamphlet for the 1975 referendum gave the aims of the Common Market as follows:
* To bring together the peoples of Europe.
* To raise living standards and improve working conditions.
* To promote growth and boost world trade.
* To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.
*To help maintain peace and freedom.
How successful the EU has been in these aims is a matter of debate but the EU was never intended to be and was never represented as simply a trading area
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I think the reason many people liked the idea of the Common Market was that it felt like an antidote to the memory of two world wars in which Europe was split and scarcely any family didn't lose a relative.
That vision of the EU as a 'guarantee' of peace no longer exists.
As for monetary union, it cannot reliably co-exist with independent self-government. You can't have monetary union without political union, and we seem already to be signed up to the latter anyway.
If we can't get out of the EU, we should work on becoming part of Germany.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 8 May 10 at 13:59
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I voted yes to the EU for the same reason most people did at the time. Heath lied about the implications of membership.
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Zero, " Dont forget we voted to go in.". Sorry but we didn't. We were asked AFTER the event, AFTER Ted Heath told his negotiator to get us in "at any price" whether we wanted to be in. I'm ashamed to say I voted "yes" on the grounds that we were in so we'd should make the best of it.
Looking at the voting figures for the constituency I'm in is interesting (honest!). Compared to 2005 the Labour guy (new candidate, last one did not come out of expenses scandal well!) is only down a couple of hundred votes. Conservative is up about 5,000, Liberal up 1,000, UKIP and downwards much the same as last time. That was enough to get the Conservative in by about 900 votes. So one conclusion might be that the conservative voters got off their backsides this time.
JH
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And a lot more would get off their backsides for PR.
So many are under the impression that their vote won't count.
Pat
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It's time for PR. This current system is a bad joke and downright unfair.
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...It's time for PR...
Can't agree.
It will lead to a repeated cycle of hung parliament, coalition, coalition beakdown and then another election.
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>>It will lead to a repeated cycle of hung parliament, coalition, coalition beakdown and then another election.<<
I'm with ifih - it would help the fringe parties though, like UKippers, BNP, the wishy washy's etc.
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>> I'm with ifih - it would help the fringe parties though, like UKippers, BNP, the
>> wishy washy's etc.
>>
true but they do have a right to be represented, at present we have big business and media moguls backing the tories (though the sun owner might shift again if it suits) and unions and those on the gravy train backing nulab.
independent thinking people belonging to neither faction get no representation and probably many don't bother to vote as a result.
I doubt we'll get PR TBH, vested interests have too much to lose to allow it to happen.
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I can only speak from experience, born into a dirt poor family in the early 50's, top floor council flat with no lift.
But I climed out of that life through effort (and a bit of luck) and have been blue since 79.
I do believe in Blair-ism btw, but more Eric Arthur than Anthony Charles Lynton.
13 years of NuLabour have ruined England IMO and I do honestly wonder how a person with a fully functioning brain could bring themselves to vote for them, I'm sure if we disenfranchised welfare pigs (false claiments)) and immigrants with under 5 years of resident status, the red vote would be reduced somewhat.
As for p/r, I understand it in theory, but I don't really know enough about its effect on Parliament tbh but,
I can see that fptp gives the elected party full rein to get on with the job unhindered.
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Hmm. I read how my Euro MP vote was counted under PR and I still don't understand. I can't be in favour of that. There are different PR systems granted but, as others have pointed out, they'd still result in coalition governments. I prefer first past the post. Will we get a vote? If so will it be FPTP or PR?
Why not more referendums like in Switzerland plus a ban for umpteen years on any re ballot to avoid the EU / Eire swizz?
JH
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PR will simply mean that we will have the same mess we are in now after every election.
The problem is having 3 parties. The LibDems supporters have a hodgepodge of views and policies. Most of them are left wing and would find a home in the Labour party. A small proportion are center right in their views and would fit in the conservative party. Their only common view is a support of proportional representation.
I suspect that the outcome of the present negotiations will be an informal Conservative/lLib/Dem alliance that will last for six months or so and end up in another election which the Tories will win. The electorate will blame the LibDems for the need for another election and they will end up holding their traditional 15 or so celtic fringe seats and we will all be back to some sort of normality.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 8 May 10 at 19:16
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CG, I tend to agree but "normality" has been set wobbling on it's axis by the creation of Welsh & Scottish assemblies. Time for an English one. As part of a minority group (English) I'll scream bigoted racist if anyone disagrees with me. :-)
JH
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...that will last for six months or so...
Agreed.
I'm tempted to put a tenner on a general election in October.
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I'm tempted to put a tenner on a general election in October.
But on what result? Could it see the LibDems wiped out?
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I am still trying to work out how Grizzly Gordie polled the worse percentage since the Late Mr Foot, and smooth dave got the biggest swing since handbag maggie, yet he hasnt got a Majority.
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Paddy Power are offering evens on another election this year, 6-4 on 2011, and 6-1 on 2012.
www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/uk-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=280943
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>> I am still trying to work out how Grizzly Gordie polled the worse percentage since
>> the Late Mr Foot, and smooth dave got the biggest swing since handbag maggie, yet
>> he hasnt got a Majority.
Cameron has made a lot of the maggie comparison which is with 79. She won a good working majority but the swing is measured from a point where the parties were relativeley close. Her landslides when she had massive majorities were 83 & 87. This time the conservatives started from a low base.
Lies damned lies and statistics
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>> It's time for PR. This current system is a bad joke and downright unfair.
I don't think it matters too much what system we have, because I think that most voters don't know enough about politics and the likely effect of the different parties' policies to enable them to make an informed choice.
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I think that is far from the truth.
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>> I think that is far from the truth.
>>
:-D
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>>
>> I don't think it matters too much what system we have, because I think that
>> most voters don't know enough about politics and the likely effect of the different parties'
>> policies to enable them to make an informed choice.
I don't agree with the proposition about voters not knowing enough about politics but it's been near impossible to get any detail of the policies of any party.
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According to the BBC page there's still one seat to be declared (649/650)- anyone know where, and why it's so late?
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One of the candidates died, so there needs to be a three week delay. The constituency concerned is Thirsk and Malton.
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Had the tories got 325 seats gordon would have squatted for three weeks!
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>> One of the candidates died.
Thanks CM.
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"I am still trying to work out how Grizzly Gordie polled the worse percentage since the Late Mr Foot, and smooth dave got the biggest swing since handbag maggie, yet he hasnt got a Majority"
Agreed. One could almost feel sympathy for Mr. Cameron. He won comfortably, yet now needs to deal with a Mr. Nobody in charge of an also-ran party that lost seats and were a distant third... Insane!
The only winner will be the third-placed party, holding the winners to ransom whenever it suits them. Doesn't seem fair to me.
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While it seems absurd that the smallest (major) party has all the power, to completely avoid problems of power sharing in future, should we go for the one party system? I thought not!
I personally like the current system of first past the post but could be persuaded by a proportional representation system, even though many parliaments would probably be hung, in today's terminology.
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>> One of the candidates died, so there needs to be a three week delay. The
>> constituency concerned is Thirsk and Malton.
>>
Their election is on 27th May.
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Thirsk is safe conservative territory; Dave already has it in the bag.
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Don't mention the war... I mean the election. - BobbyG
