For reasons irrelevant to the discussion point I've made the same journey twice today in two different cars.
First time I was in my company car, the second in the one we own which my wife usually uses.
On paper, the first one at new is "worth" 3 times the price of the latter but because of age and mileage differences at present it's "worth" 4 times as much.
Now here's the thing, was the driving experience on the two journeys even twice as good? Was the comfort afforded by the dearer car measureably better? Did I feel any noticeable difference in "pleasure" or well being?
Nope not even slightly.
Tough to see how you'd explain to a Martian ( or anyone not indoctrinated in the ways of economics ) why the one was "worth" more than the other eh?
Anyway, carry on, as you were. Just one of my "Why do people in top flats have net curtains?" or "What's the point in a BMW 316?" moments...
:-)
|
|
My ole Dad used to say, "A ride in a wheelbarrow is better than walking to a tired man" meaning an old banger is a good as a Rolls in the right circumstances!
|
Hey look, you are comparing King Tiger with panzer tank. A tank is a tank.
What if you had done the ride in your westfield? What if you had compared a second hand Mondeo estate at 5 grand verses your 50 grand merc? now there is a test, is the Mondeo really 10 times worse than the LEC?
|
OK OK point taken ! But here's a new challenge. Just for fun of course.
Write an explanation to a Martian (non economically or socially aware) as to why for example a Rolls Royce/ Bentley/ Jaguar ( OK Merc ) is better than an Insignia/ Mondeo/Passat/ Avensis. No economic considerations are allowed as money does not exist on Mars...
Over to you guys...
:-)
|
|
I would rather try and work out what the Wife is thinking.........if you don't mind?
|
|
If you drive a Ferrari you'll have attractive women begging for a lift. If you drive an Escort Popular Plus they'll mutter something about a bus pass and walk away.
|
>> If you drive a Ferrari you'll have attractive women begging for a lift. If you
>> drive an Escort Popular Plus they'll mutter something about a bus pass and walk away.
They wont even be within earshot if you drive a pop plus.
The Martian thing is barking up the wrong spaceship. You cant divorce economics or social awareness form cars, the two go hand in hand. However consider this.
You have 50 grand. what would you prefer. A new 20 grand mondeo estate, and 6 £5k holiday over the next 6 years, or a LEC and no holidays. What would provide you with more pleasure?
|
|
Fazakerley. As they say in Liverpool.
|
|
and now you know why I run a Lancer estate,
|
|
If I was i would be driving a german phallic symbol.
|
Fazakerley.
You miss-heard them - It's Fezacharly in Liverpool with the Scots pronunciation of the "ch" .
|
>> Fazakerley.
>>
>> You miss-heard them - It's Fezacharly in Liverpool with the Scots pronunciation of the "ch"
>> .
>>
Is that for Ferrari drivers ? Fezza Charlie or, Fezza Carly ?
|
>> You have 50 grand. what would you prefer. A new 20 grand mondeo estate, and
>> 6 £5k holiday over the next 6 years, or a LEC and no holidays. What
>> would provide you with more pleasure?
I'd be happy with a mildly second hand Berlingo or similar for £10k and more to spend on hols.
|
>> If you drive a Ferrari you'll have attractive women begging for a lift. If you drive an Escort Popular Plus they'll mutter something about a bus pass and walk away.
This stuff only applies to men who only fancy gold-digging airhead girls. I never have, which is fortunate because on the whole they haven't fancied me much, shrewd doxies that they so often are.
There's a proper new front-engined V12 Ferrari, only 700 hp and a tasty bit of nonsense at not much under a quarter of a million quid. I'd quite like a go in one but the very thought of owning such a thing or stroking it through the traffic every day makes me laugh. WHY FFS?
I sympathise greatly with Humph in his OP. Even if he had one of those snorting-monster Merc variants, which I am sure are more fun than lumbering lesser models, they are a bit galumphing for our roads. And think of the pounds per mile they would gobble if you had any fun in them...
I like all cars, especially rapid, rough-looking low-powered ones.
|
He has Mondeo Estate written through him like a stick of rock. One day, one day, the dream will be realised.
And the sun will shine again...
|
>> Write an explanation to a Martian (non economically or socially aware) as to why for
>> example a Rolls Royce/ Bentley/ Jaguar ( OK Merc ) is better than an Insignia/
>> Mondeo/Passat/ Avensis. No economic considerations are allowed as money does not exist on Mars...
Bet the Martian would want to show you the Starsky and Hutch stripe on his new spaceship
|
>> Hey look, you are comparing King Tiger with panzer tank.
>>
[Pedant]
Can't let that pass.
Er, a King Tiger is a panzer tank. "Panzerkampfwagen Tiger Ausf B." it says here.
[/Pedant]
|
Nothing sadder than an inaccurate pedant.
"Tiger II is the common name of a German heavy tank of the Second World War. The final official German designation was Panzerkampfwagen Tiger Ausf. B"
"The Panzerkampfwagen IV (Pz.Kpfw. IV) commonly known as the Panzer IV was a medium tank developed in Nazi Germany in the late 1930s and used extensively during the Second World War. Its ordnance inventory designation was Sd.Kfz."
|
|
What were the vehicles? It does matter.
|
Going back to the OP, a similar comparison is the Mark 1 Renault Scenic I bought , T reg, in 1999 I think.
Since then I have had another 2 Scenics and now a Seat Altea.
So my current car has alloy wheels, front fog lights, air con, aux in socket and reversing sensors that my original Scenic didn't.
The Scenic had double sunroofs, removable seats and an old fashioned non common rail turbo diesel engine. It was also faster and more economical than my current Altea.
OK, by now it would be 13 years old and probably dead, but I often wonder how better my finances would be, especially my endowment mortgage, if I had kept with the one car through that period!
|
>> What were the vehicles? It does matter.
1/ 2011 Merc E-Class 250CDI auto Sport estate
2/ 2008 Nissan Qashqai 1.6 petrol Visia manual.
|
|
One area my large estate car did show its worth was in the transporting of 4 Ikea PAX wardrobes yesterday, along with a heap of associated purchases to kit out a recently completed refurb. They're a fraction over 2m tall, and I guess the packaging adds another couple of cms. They're also blinking heavy! Fortunately the boot opens remotely, the luggage cover lifts automatically and the rear seats fold with handles by the tailgate. All four slid in without even removing the load cover, with what looked like a mm or so to spare. Bet they wouldn't have fitted in a Mondeo!!
|
|
Interestingly (or perhaps not...) a Mondeo estate 2.2 TDCI Titanium Auto, which is some way off being the most expensive Mondeo, can be had through drivethdeal for a fraction over £22k. An MB E220 CDI SE Auto estate is around £27.5k (same source). A tougher call or not?
|
>> Interestingly (or perhaps not...) a Mondeo estate 2.2 TDCI Titanium Auto, which is some way
>> off being the most expensive Mondeo, can be had through drivethdeal for a fraction over
>> £22k. An MB E220 CDI SE Auto estate is around £27.5k (same source). A tougher
>> call or not?
>>
Some would buy one over the other for perceived brand image (either way)
Personally I would take a view of which was the cheaper to own over a given period taking depreciation into account, so I suspect that the "working mans" car is probably a more expensive option in real terms
|
...to kit out a recently completed refurb...
The start of that sentence had me worried - I thought Peter Towers was being filled with stuff from Ikea.
|
|
We've got Billy bookcases in the study!!
|
...in the study!...
Study? Only people who are posh and well-minted have one of those.
|
|
Where else do you put all the junk ;-)
|
|
in socialite snazzy social media aware Surrey circles, the study has become the 'office'. The place where one puts ones "billy bookcase" I have two.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 5 Aug 12 at 09:21
|
|
Office smacks a little too much of work for my liking! I'll stick to study!!
|
Study? Office? We keep our billy bookcases -six of them in a row - in the west wing.
|
I tend to drop the seriously bulky stuff off at "Transport" and let them deliver it. Very reasonably priced they are.
Some countries' Ikea will let you just take the printout of what you want (which the floor staff will compile for you) to the checkout, drop the paperwork off with Transport and they will pick the gear for you too at no extra cost.
Last time I actually did take a load of big bits home myself, Ikea sold me a four pack of Hercules straps for a fiver and I strapped all the big stuff to the roof.....
|
>>Tough to see how you'd explain to a Martian ( or anyone not indoctrinated in the ways of economics ) why the one was "worth" more than the other eh?<<
Its all about brand image though - as you well know in your line of business.
I'm a 'Panasonic Man', and wouldn't be seen dead (or alive) with a Samsung or LG TV, even though the Korean brands are as-good or even-better in many cases, than the Japanese brands.
A fool and his money are easily parted.
|
|
You all sound like a bunch of mugs that have fallen for marketing bullshine.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 5 Aug 12 at 09:49
|
>> You all sound like a bunch of mugs that have fallen for marketing tripe.
>>
|
You don't have to try the experiment with a Martian, just find a Swede.
Try explaining to him why we throw our cars away after 7 years, but Swedes are happy to run them to 18 years. Why is the average age of a car 10 years in prosperous Scandinavia and only 6 in bankrupt run-down Britain?
|
I think probably where I'm going with this, not sure really, but probably...is that if I were to go self-employed again tomorrow or even just opt out of the company car scheme, would I spend 40-odd grand on a car like the one my employer gives me? I love it to bits. It's great and I love driving it but is it so many multiples of worth better than some obvious alternatives? As it happens, today I could afford it so that's not the issue. It's about whether I would think it was a good use of that money when ultimately I could get something 90% as good for 25% of the money. At what point, I ask myself, would that be a good idea?
I think, maybe. Dunno ...
:-)
|
|
i bought a nearly new xj but didn't really consider its worth except I wanted one and as it will be my last car I wanted something I felt was special.
|
|
remember Betsy........ You know you want.....
|
|
One aspect Humph doesn't address is lasting value. His £13,000 car will be a banger / dodgy minicab / crushed cube before its tenth birthday. His LEC will be worth something to someone for another five years or more. But that 50 percent added utility narrows the gap. Those PCP slaves who buy new and renew at 36 months because they can't afford the balloon or are irrationally afraid of being out of warranty don't benefit, of course, but those who take a longer view can and do.
|
Good point WDB. Actually, I think I'm probably talking rot anyway. I'd persuade myself I'd do the sensible thing again but in truth, if I were going to spend my own money on a car I'd be very likely ( seduced by RWD again y'see ) to buy the best BMW 5 series diesel auto touring I could find for +/- £10k...
Why a BMW rather than a Merc? Possibly I'd feel better about my chances of reliability from an old Beemer than an old Merc.
Still struggle to explain that to Captain Zarg mind.
|
Not talking rot, Humph, but all this is a reflection on how many-faceted (and therefore enjoyable) choosing a car is for those of us who are interested in it.
The journey you did twice today was presumably not a very long one (or else it wasn't your most productive day!) compare with the cross-country trips you do for work. For those you loved valiant old Betsy, and you're already fond of the German taxi. But in between them was another Cashcow that never inspired affection, or so you told us.
So it's horses for courses: the shorter the run, and the less interesting the road, the less it matter what car you're in. The extra cost of the Mercedes over the Nissan starts to make a difference when you rack up a high mileasge over varied terrain.
And then there's the extent that finance plays a part. For some it has to be pretty well the sole consideration; for others while still essential it isn't the only factor. WdB would call me a PCP slave - but both SWMBO and I like new cars, hence the new Octavia and Mini Roadster against his three-year-old Mercedes and seemingly immortal Volvo. Both of us are right, and no doubt thankful that we have the opportunity to choose.
|
I'd have thought a 1.6 Qashqai to be rather under-powered. Fine for an occasional run such as Humph made in it, but I doubt he'd enjoy spending 30+ hours/week inside it ploughing up and down the country's motorways?
Anyway, aren't we all supposed to be enthusiasts on this forum? Was it James May that once said he hadn't got money for a stair carpet in the house but spent it instead on a used Roller or something?! Got anyone like him on our forum?!
|
I went as a passenger in a 15 yr old S-class Mercedes last year. 5 litre V8 up front, every conceivable toy inside, and that badge on the back. Wafted along in near silence.
Worth probably no more than £1500 on account of its 180,000 miles, slightly shabby appearance, and 14 mpg fuel consumption.
But if I didn't need a car to commute, this is exactly the kind of thing I would drive. With a very big smile on my face.
Given the cost of fuel, and heavy taxation of high CO2 outputs, it's the dull stuff that's worth more on the used market.
|
>> But if I didn't need a car to commute, this is exactly the kind of
>> thing I would drive. With a very big smile on my face.
DP - I know you liked your S60. If you were concerned about fuel economy, why did you not buy a D5? I would have thought it to be right up your street, the D5 has to be one of the more impressive diesels.
|
>> Was it James May that once said he hadn't got money for a stair carpet in the house but
>> spent it instead on a used Roller or something?!
Something close.
www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIAL/CARS/FEATURES/31245.html
At the moment James has four cars - a Porsche Boxster, a Series 1 Range Rover, Bentley T2 and a Rolls Royce Corniche fixed head coupé. The purchases of all these cars have been thanks to a particular form of economics named by James himself.
"Man maths. It's more of a philosophy. It's a way of justifying wasting money on toys. Therefore I have four cars but no stair carpet," says James.
|
|
Ironically Man maths is only possible for those who have money to waste. Practised by the very people who don't need to use it.
|
>> "Man maths. It's more of a philosophy. It's a way of justifying wasting money on
>> toys. Therefore I have four cars but no stair carpet," says James.
I have to make do with one car and no stairs.
|
|
Hardly necessary when you can go straight up the wall.
|
>> Hardly necessary when you can go straight up the wall.
>>
Only when you're driving me up it.
|
Well, now y'see this is where it all falls apart. I've done a 360 mile round trip in the LEC today without hesitation, deviation or repetition. Suffice it to say it took rather less time than it ought to have. Rather a lot less. And boy did I enjoy it ! Qashqais aren't quite so cut out for those sorts of shennanigans somehow.
|
The thread has come full circle, and you've answered your own question, Humph. :-)
It's not important whether car A is twice the price of car B. If car A is the one that you really want AND IN BUDGET, then go for it. Sure, you could go for car B and pocket the difference, but no real enthusiast would do that would they. And what are we doing here if we aren't enthusiasts?
|
>> The thread has come full circle
Yup... 53 posts to sort of establish that a sweet, silent Mercedes V6 turbodiesel medium-sized estate (I hope I have got that right) drives more comfortably and a lot more briskly than a Qashqai even when laden with half a ton of Jimmy Choo's finest nude sheepskin pampooties...
Who would have thought it?
|
One doesn't have to throw tens of thousands of pounds at a car to drive more comfortable and more brisk than a Qashqai.
In fact five grand should more-than do it:
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201228478183439
|
|
All very well Huckleberry but that there has a cambelt. Never again ! Uh uh, no way Jose.
|
'All that glitters' eh!
:)
|
"Yup... 53 posts to sort of establish that a sweet, silent Mercedes V6 turbodiesel medium-sized estate (I hope I have got that right) drives more comfortably and a lot more briskly than a Qashqai......"
For the record, I think the Humphmobile is a four-cylinder, but no matter.
Agreed, there are good reasons for buying a Cashcow, but driving pleasure isn't one of the main ones. But, more interestingly, Humph (and many others) have had plenty of driving pleasure from a Mondeo; and here, as Peter S and Mikey B have spotted, halfway up the thread, the argument is much closer. The Mondeo is cheaper but depreciates faster than the Mercedes, so it comes down to personal preference and priorities.
Last edited by: Avant on Wed 8 Aug 12 at 00:05
|
|
I didn't see very many Mondeos on the roads on my visit to the UK last month. Probably saw more E-classes in fact. What does that say? That and the fact that the Insignia seems to be a top 10 seller every month..?
|
>> The Mondeo is cheaper but depreciates faster than the Mercedes, so it comes down to personal preference and priorities.
So I buy a Mercedes for £30k and in three years it's worth 46% of that. Real world loss is therefore £16.2k.
Or I buy a Ford Mondeo for say £20k but it's worth only 36% after three years. Real world loss is therefore £12.8k. Okay it's worth less but I paid £10k less to start with.
So if I had £30k cash to begin with for either scenario, which car was better value for money? Which makes me better off?
I've guessed the figures but my point is the Mercedes may depreciate less as a percentage. In real terms it might still cost you more.
|
>>
>> I've guessed the figures but my point is the Mercedes may depreciate less as a
>> percentage. In real terms it might still cost you more.
>>
A very valid point, and the 'trouble' (perhaps more in the past) with Mercedes and BMWs in particular was expensive optional extras, sometimes 'needed' for resale (leather, auto) but not counted in the depreciation figures. Net result is that several thousand GBP disappear the moment you order the thing.
Now, I (like many I suspect) think Fords are way overpriced at list these days, they're undoubtedly very good cars but you can either get them new or nearly new with a large discount meaning that depreciation figures are misleading. I'd add that I think they provide as good (or even better) driving experience as BMWs, Mercedes and Audis.
I live in an incredibly image-concious place (Hong Kong), witness the popularity of behemoths like the Maybach (still sold here), Audi Q7 and Mercedes R-Class - all ridiculed in the UK. Here brand matters - whether it's your handbag/wallet or your car, Fords are almost non-existent and the roads are clogged with crap cars from prestige manufacturers that Europe doesn't want.
I guess you 'pays yer money and takes yer choice' ? The 250D Mercs are 4 cylinder 2.1L with balancer shafts I think.
|
>>> For the record, I think the Humphmobile is a four-cylinder, but no matter.
Sorry Humph. Would there be a Kompressor by any chance?
Actually the only Merc I ever got to myself was a four, a 190SL. It went quite well and I didn't crash it thank goodness.
|
The measure of worth - devonite
