Elder daughter is on her fourth 1.3 Yaris which is coming up to 3 years old and the end of the PCP. She's a freelance nanny and earnings are low enough to need a reduction in her monthly outgoings.
Why not keep this Yaris (it's been totally reliable like the other three, but has done 52,000 miles)? Because she hasn't got £3,500 for the balloon payment - nor have I without running up a debt myself - and I'd prefer not to have her make repayments coupled with the possiblity of replacements and repairs as the mileage mounts.
We've tried an i10, and the 1.2 Active has a nippy engine, an excellent gearchange and perfectly acceptable ride and handling - and as much room inside as a Yaris. The cost would be about £150 per month (for a new one) less than for another Yaris: the list price is about £4,500 lower.
Any views on what a Yaris can do that an i10 can't? We've also tried a Skoda Citigo, but even the 5-door has less room for baby seats than the Yaris and i10, and was more expensive to buy.
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Coming from a Yaris I would go for the Active, rather than Classic because you get some nicer touches. It is a great little engine and my dads has not had any issues with it what so ever since he has his.
It is a bit smaller inside than my Panda, so that may be in issue if you need to transport people, it will be quite a bit smaller than the Yaris.
On the motorway it copes surprising well with no real problem with cross wind etc you get on some small cars.
The i10 is a cheaper car but as longs as she isn't expecting the same level of trim then there will be problem downgrading.
Also like the Toyota it comes with a 5 year warranty and I have studied it at great detail, it is surprising just what it does include. The warranty is a proper one, not just engine and gearbox.
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>> Elder daughter is on her fourth 1.3 Yaris which is coming up to 3 years
>> old and the end of the PCP. >>
>> Why not keep this Yaris (it's been totally reliable like the other three, but has
>> done 52,000 miles)? Because she hasn't got £3,500 for the balloon payment - nor have I
Why didn't she keep any of the previous three?
She would have been quids in, even if she took out a loan to pay the balloon payment! It would have been paid off long ago and forgotten about by now.
Last edited by: Duncan on Sun 8 Jul 12 at 20:24
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At 50,000 in 3 years? Would have probably on about 200,000 miles plus by now!
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Thanks for that, Rattle - helpful and informative as ever. Your second post is also spot-on: she is no mechanic and has no idea what goes on inside the bonnet, although I have shown her the basics.
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Rattle beat me to it - that 5 year warranty and 84 hp 1.2 engine must make it a tempting buy. Chain cam too.
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As its a lease, probably for three years, long warranties, chain cam engines etc. are irrelevant. In this case it all boils down to how much bang (size, toys, suitability and MPG) for your lower monthly buck.
Edit, unless of course you are planning to buy it end lease. Whole new ball game then.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 8 Jul 12 at 21:27
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Unfortunately she doesn't share her father's interest in cars - otherwise that would have been perhaps the only relevant question. Unlike our other three, she's unmarried and still at home, and her priority is to finds more work, save up and leave home.
Duncan's very sound reasoning above would normally make the most sense. but she still has frequent trips round the M25 at unsociable hours and a new, reliable car has been the priority. The Yarises have been ideal, but she can't afford another new one. A secondhand, low-mileage Yaris is one option of course - although with such cars you often wonder why someone has sold it so soon. And the price of a new i10 looks like the equivalent of a Yaris that's two years old.
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Avant, have you looked at a Kia Picanto? It comes with a 7 year 100k mile warranty.
Instead of a three year lease, the daughter could run one of those long-term instead (if she feels OK in it, of course).
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Are there any old-model Pandas around?
I see daughter is looking to increase her income, but if she can only just afford to run a small car, I wonder if she's charging enough to her existing customers.
Mr and Mrs Very Busy Professionals may want a nanny, but they need to understand such services have to be paid for.
Cheap domestic labour largely died out after the First World War.
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+1 for the Picanto
I had a look at one a few months back and they are a very nice little car which has grown up alot in its latest incarnation.
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... although with such cars you often wonder why someone has sold it so soon.
Dum...dum...di...dum......dum...di...dum...di...dum...di...dum
};---)
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Fiat 500? We get 500's on the affinity scheme for something like £199 deposit and £99 a month.
Lingscars has VW Up! for 120 odd quid a month
*****sorry - just read the comments about baby seats - guess that rules these out******
Last edited by: mikeyb on Mon 9 Jul 12 at 20:19
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This seems a slightly surreal argument to me. I can't afford a balloon payent to keep a car so I will go and buy a new car, with it's VAT and registration charges etc. rather than buying a two year old car with a 5 year warranty that has three years left to run (or a 7 year warranty with 5 years to run).
Maybe like a 11 plate Yaris 1.0 VVTi T Spirit Nav 3 door with 13k miles up for £7,699?
Or a Kia Rio 1 1.4 petrol on an 11 plate with 9k miles up for £5,699? Or the Diesel with 3k miles up for £7,499?
The Diesel Rio over 5 years would be £175ish a month and you own the car at month 60 when it still has a year of warranty left. No balloon, but if you want to change the car the outstanding loan will almost certainly be less than the value of the car.
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"The Diesel Rio over 5 years would be £175ish a month"
A new i10 Active (one up from the basic Classic) will be £131 a month over 3 years (with £1,000 deposit paid for 25 % by Hyundai as a special offer, 75 % by positive equity in the current Yaris). The price they're quoting for a new 5-door i10 1.2 is £7,695 - £4 less than the gutless year-old 1.0 3-door Yaris.
I'm not such a stupid boy, am I, Mr Mainwaring?
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We bought an i10 in 2009 (the top spec one) and sold it 18 months later to a dealer for £450 less than we paid for it. The i10 is not a car I need to be persuaded about, but I found it too small (I am 6'4) for my 19 miles commute to work where it had been fine previously as a 2nd car for the station (prior to job change) or pottering to the shops.
The thing that is being ignored is the ballon on the i10. £131 a month is fine, but what is left to pay? The i10 is in the class below the Rio, is therefore smaller and size concerns were mentioned.
I am a fan of PCPs in certain instances. I bought a Saab 93 is 2006 and 3 years later it was worth £3,500 but the balloon wanted £7k - I gave it back. We bought our i10 outright as the interest rates on small car PCP tend to be high and the balloon very similar to the amount of credit extended.
Basically it depends on how you see a car - financial cost or operational cost? Financial says I want to own it and therefore pay as little as I can to do so, operational says I want to put this much aside a month to drive something new/reliable and I don't care about owning it. Opportunity cost of the money versus risk of a monthly payment you might not be able to afford if circumstances change - there is only one person who can answer which fits best.
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i10 has horrible throttle action due to RHD conversion.
Difficult to make a smooth getaway or manoeuvre.
Last edited by: sooty tailpipes on Mon 9 Jul 12 at 22:05
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You get used to that, on the odd occasions I have driven the i10 I found it easy to drive, my dad did suffer though for the first 1k, he kept stalling it but now he knows how to drive it smoothly. I admit it is not the easiest car to drive outside of the box, but it can easily be driven smoothly once you get the hang of it.
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"I cannot afford to run a car, therefore I have to run a brand new car."
Crazy. What she needs is an accountant to advise her... ;)
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Actually for self employed people it makes a lot of sense, for example I know I have enough money each month to cover the loan and services, but I rarely have the money to go out and buy a new gearbox, which you may need to on older cars.
For a lot of people it is not always about the total cost but the piece of mind and lack lost days working due to break downs. Especially if you do 16,000 odd a year.
I don't think I will ever ever go back to buying used cars again.
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Nuffink wrong with buying used cars RattleandHum, my last 4 cars have been one owner, low mileage, 2 to 3 year old, and ... as good as gold.
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Used cars do not always mean bad purchase. If you buy a reasonably reliable brand car with full service history, you should be ok.
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Rattle previously didn't buy second hand cars, he bought sheds.
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When we bought our Panda, the main motivation for buying a new one was that a used example was not that much cheaper. Small second hand cars here up to 3 years or so old are amazingly expensive. Larger cars depreciate considerably more, but Mrs. B. insisted on buying something small.
We saved some more by buying an EU import - maybe that's an option for the OP to save a few bob?
In terms of the model, at that end of the market I would recommend a Kia Picanto, Fiat Panda (old model) or Chevrolet Spark.
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Exactly my Panda cost me £6500 including the colour, my cousin has just paid £3500 for a 7 year old bog standard Corsa.
With bigger cars buying used makes more sense, but for a small city car I will mostly be in the market for I just don't ever see the point on buying used, the discounts are not big enough.
Also much of Joe Bloggs don't realise how much discount you can get on new cars, the list for my car for example was £8300 with the colour. The list for my dads i10 was just over £8500 and he paid £6500 for it. £6500 for a car with a 5 year warranty makes a lot of financial sense.
Also my mates Panda just over three years old as developed a leak on the gearbox, FIAT have offered to pay the cost of the repair in full because the car has only done 13k. You get that sort of back up when buying new.
Don't get me wrong, if I was in the market for a petrol Mondeo then I would never buy new! I am not against second hand cars, but I do believe if a person wants a small basic car and can afford the monthly payments buying new makes a lot sense. I am probably going to keep my Panda until it gets old but the difference is I will know its been properly serviced etc.
A good friend of mine bought a Clio second hand for £3500, it was four years old at the time and a friend offered her the trade in value for it. It had 40,000 on the clock, it now has 130,000 and is still going strong, she only had to get rid of it as she was banned from driving for being caught with no insurance :(. [an admin mistake on he bebalve but she could not be bothered to sort it so no sympathy]. My point is I know good second hand cars exist but I simply cannot be bothered with the lottery.
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Thank goodness there are folks out there that do buy used or second hand cars (I don't). Our forecourts of all main dealers and the more seedier ones (perhaps they are the same), are awash with cars. In fact, just what is the turnover of these places? Do they move many cars/week?
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Rattle, you're missing my point. You're always very good at coming up with figures showing that the depreciation on a small car is about 5% per annum over the first seven years of its life. I'm not sure you're being entirely objective, but let's for a moment say that you are.
The crazy thing is not that buying a new car might make more-or-less make sense economically. BUT that Avant's daughter cannot afford to run a car, as she hasn't got £3,500 to spare, THEREFORE she has to run a new one. If she could just hang onto that 3-year old car - with its two years' remaining warranty - then she'd be saving money.
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>> Exactly my Panda cost me £6500 including the colour, my cousin has just paid £3500
>> for a 7 year old bog standard Corsa.
Who paid 2k over the odds for that car.
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>> "I cannot afford to run a car, therefore I have to run a brand new
>> car."
>>
>> Crazy. What she needs is an accountant to advise her... ;)
>>
an accountant to advise her like ... .... like Mappy who is not her Dad! ;-)
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>> done 52,000 miles)? Because she hasn't got £3,500 for the balloon payment - nor have
>> I without running up a debt myself - uy.
>>
And there is the General Public thinking Accountants get paid loadsamoney!
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What bothers me in this thread is not Rats's familiar rose-tinted view of depreciation (although since he's stated his intention to keep his Panda till the cows come home to a frozen-over Hell, perhaps he's entitled to take a longer view than most.) It's the implicit assumption, from Avant of all people, that a three-year-old Toyota will need a new gearbox before it completes its next lap of the M25.
Consider another scenario: put the £750 deposit for the i10 towards the balloon; borrow the rest over two years. Even at 7% my crude calculation gives a monthly repayment of about - I didn't fix this - £131!
After two years of that the Yaris still won't have blown up - I may not have liked our Toyota but my reason for getting rid of it had nothing to do with reliability or durability - so keep it for another year, putting aside the same £131 towards a deposit on its replacement. It will have just tipped over 100,000 miles in six years and will make a decent, cheap buy for someone else. It should still be worth £1,000 then, so there'll be £2,500 in the deposit kitty. Last time I looked, there were Mercedes models you could get into for that much deposit.
As Brettmick says, PCP schemes have their value, but it's generally in terms of getting you into a better car than you could afford with your own cash. I'm not convinced that buying a worse - just newer - car, just because the PCP makes it superficially viable, is a good idea.
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It depends if you place value on the car being 'newer' or not.
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Drove them both recently.
i10 every day of the week
Obvious targets are younger drivers, to which the i10s looks and character will appeal, but as a reliable ‘shopping trolley’ for older buyers, it would also prove ideal. As Hyundai state: the i10 will either be the first car, or the last car, you’ll buy.
The back seat will take an adult without the feeling of claustrophobia so often found in smaller cars. Access through the rear doors doesn’t require much contorsion either – a boon for any parent trying to load offspring into child seats And the boot is surprisingly large - given the lines of the i10 I was expecting a loaf-of-bread and a newspaper sized one, but there’s enough room for a weeks worth of shopping.
Out on the road, the i10 certainly doesn’t disappoint either. On a relatively short trip through Joburg suburbs and out on the open roads the i10 coped well with a variety of surfaces, a LOT of stop-start traffic, and some open-road freeway-speed driving. Drive comfort, especially over the bumps, was adequate, with no rattles or knocks from the well-built chassis and bodywork.
The 1,25 litre engine pumps out 64 kW and gives smooth delivery of power through the 5-speed box.
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>> As Hyundai
>> state: the i10 will either be the first car, or the last car, you’ll buy.
I'm glad that Hyundai have got my future old age intentions all sown up. How efficient of them.
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Hyundai should complete the job and produce a hearse.
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>> Hyundai should complete the job and produce a hearse.
It shall be called the Hyun-die Soulless.
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>> Hyundai should complete the job and produce a hearse.
>>
Oddly enough, the Yaris estate of around the 2001 era, viewed from the rear, is distinctly hearse-like. Every time I see one I expect to see a midget's coffin in the back.
Regarding depreciation on an i10; my admittedly simplistic view of small car depreciation is that they lose a grand a year. Hyundai offer a 5-year warranty, we paid £5250 for it having traded in a virtually worthless 1997 Punto under the scrappage scheme, therefore by the time the car is six months out of warranty it will owe me nothing.
Like Rats ours is a keeper; we've only clocked up just over 20,000 miles in nearly 3 years of ownership, and neither myself or wifey are particulaly fussed about having a newer, or even better, car. So long as it stays reliable we'll keep it, and on current form it'll be with us for a few years yet. It's the only new car I've ever owned, or am likely to.
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I'll ignore Mapmaker's sarcasm but just point out to him that the Yaris in question was new in October 2009 and therefore doesn't have the 5-year warranty that was introduced in 2010.
Turning to WdB's reasoning - for which many thanks - we haven't made the decision yet, and have until October to make it. Firstly I didn't mean to imply that the Yaris was liable to blow its gearbox etc in the near future: the point of my OP was to ask people's views as to whether the i10 - a lot cheaper than a Yaris at the £7.695 that they're quoting for an i10 Active - is an inferior car. It seems not very - and interestingly What Car gives it 4 stars overall to the Yaris's 2.
But as we're into the financial argument, the issue is how Olivia can spend as little as possible - given her need to save for other things - but still have reliable transport for what will be a slightly smaller mileage than before - about 10,000 a year. If she's going to spend, say, £131 a month (better than the £241 for the Yaris), for which I'll probaby sub her the excess over £100, how is it best spent?
(1) WdB suggests keeping the Yaris for another year or two, and setting such an amount aside for an eventual deposit for its replacement. That is of course perfectly logical, and I agree that the Yaris will probably continue to be reliable. But I'm not sure what the tangible benefit is to Olivia over spending the same amount on a new car, particularly as she would have to add the cost of any replacements to this. And the balloon has to be paid off first.
(2) Spend the lower sum on a PCP for a cheaper - not necessarily worse - car, and save the extra cost (£110 a month in this example).
(3) Hand the Yaris back and buy a banger. Sorry, but she is not in the least mechanically minded and this brings risks that aren't worth taking unless we pay as much as the amount of the balloon (about £3,400). Although I trained as an accountant, I recognise that financial considerations, though vital, aren't the only ones involved in car buying.
At the moment I favour (2) but am open to any more constructive suggestions.
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Possibly I've not read the thread in enough detail so apols if this has been covered. I've had I10s on hire and didn't like them. Never driven a Yaris ( don't think so anyway ) so can't comment. But...every time I get a Panda on hire it pleases me.
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a yaris is more comfortable, has better lights ,better radio, better,hooter. less expesive tyres. easier diy servicing, better main dealers, better trim, i 1o better brakes ,nippy enginge good visability.
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No problem, Avant. Happy to stick my snout in for a good rummage in someone else's business.
}:---)
Another thought occurred to me. Two thoughts, to be more precise.
Thought 1: what does the Hyundai PCP say about mileage? My recollection of Mercedes PCPs that I investigated briefly a couple of months ago is that the published amounts are based on a three-year mileage of no more than 36,000, and many of these deals have significant penalties if this is exceeded. A quick look at Hyundai's site suggests 14.9p for every mile over 30,000 - so 52,000 would mean £3,278.
Thought 2: consider which option costs least in interest? I'm not of the school that insists on buying only what you can afford in cash, but paying interest is for mugs, so careful analysis of where the money's going will be rewarded with more left over at the end. Hyundai's APR seems to be 6.9%, which is hardly bargain basement these days.
I realize we've done our usual trick of answering your question by telling you it's the wrong question.
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Surely the only sensible thing to do to answer your questions is to produce a cash-flow forecast for the next five years, and calculate the net loss at the end of it.
I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, merely trying to point out the irony... I confess, I don't understand the market in small cars. Rattle keeps going on about paying nearly 4k for a 7-year-old car. Autotrader tells me that 4k will buy you a 2-3 year old i10 - but equally it tells me that 6k will buy a 4 year old i10.
If she has no interest in cars, then there's no point in worrying about what sort of car it is. Just get the one that costs least over the chosen time period. If worried about big bills post warranty period, get a warrantydirect warranty. You can insure for most things more cheaply than buying a new car every three years. (Surely?)
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consider which option costs least in interest?
Urgh! Superfluous question mark! Sorry, no excuse for sloppy proof reading.
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When it comes down to it, she should just get the car she likes most at a price she can afford and its not for anyone else to judge what she can and cant afford, the question was about the car.
I have not been able to afford any car change for the last 2 years if I believed what I was told on here and yet car is in the driveway paid for... :-) which goes to show armchair accountancy is somewhat overrated.
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>> I have not been able to afford any car change for the last 2 years
>> if I believed what I was told on here and yet car is in the
>> driveway paid for... :-) which goes to show armchair accountancy is somewhat overrated.
>>
Interesting!
What were you told, and how did you counter the advice.
This could be useful info in my "negotiations" with Senior Management at Chez Londoner.
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Whenever I have discussed buying a car here Im always told I cannot afford it, something my wife often says too ( but she just wants me to spend it on clothes for her - and just how many handbags does one woman need? ), but I have my secrets like most people and one of them is the precise nature of my finances.
As such, anyone who tells me what I can and cant afford presumes to know more than they do, so I ignore them, works every time :-)
As for the wife, she pays for her car, I pay for mine, so long as the bills get paid and savings plans are met, we can buy what we want though the savings plans are quite strict so it does mean I only have a small amount available to splurge on cars.
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If the Yaris has been a good car, then don't rule out keeping it. The finance co will happily do a deal on it to get you to keep it.
This may be in the form of refinancing the balance which would likely result in lower payments than today plus no deposit requirements to find.
My C5 was leased (so not quite the same) but at the end of the 3 years they offered it to me for what amounted to little more than trade price plus said they would check a years warranty on it and offered a finance deal. I didn't take them up on it, but perhaps with hindsight should have.
Does the PCP on the yaris include enough mileage allowance that there will be no excess charge if its returned?
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>>>My C5 was leased (so not quite the same) but at the end of the 3 years they offered it to me for what amounted to little more than trade price plus said they would check a years warranty on it and offered a finance deal.
Do you mind putting some figures to that comment mikey... it's something I'd wondered about for my Dec end of lease.
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>> Do you mind putting some figures to that comment mikey... it's something I'd wondered about for my Dec end of lease.
They offered it to me for 7500. I estimated its trade value to be about 7k and it's now on the forecourt of a local main dealer for 9500.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 13 Jul 12 at 00:54
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Many thanks mikey. Due to a large reduction in my mileage since we recently moved to a place where I can walk/cycle to most things there are many options open to me in Dec but if I was going to buy a £6-10k used car rather than leasing again then getting my C5 for that sort of price would be of great interest.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 13 Jul 12 at 09:13
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>> Many thanks mikey. Due to a large reduction in my mileage since we recently moved
>> to a place where I can walk/cycle to most things there are many options open
>> to me in Dec but if I was going to buy a £6-10k used car
>> rather than leasing again then getting my C5 for that sort of price would be
>> of great interest.
>>
Also worth considering buying if you are over your mileage, or there is anything that could be classed as damage as you wont have to pay if you don't return the car. Much less of a gamble buying a car for which you know its history
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I think it is worth adding that someone in the motoring trade described the new Yaris as "the most disappointing new car released this year".
The old Yaris is built of better quality stuff than the i10 as my dad has one. The i10 seats are the one thing that I think lets it down and unless they have changed them would be cautious of if you intend to do any mileage.
I note the Aygo fire is £119 a month on 0% APR....
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I guess it depends what shape you are. I am 6'2" and the i10 seats fit me perfectly. Our (auto) i10 is a perfect town car. Boot a little smaller than the Yaris, but no problem in our case as i10 has 4 doors and suff is easy to load on rear seat. i10 auto fuel consumption is not wonderful (around 38 mpg). Can't comment on the manual version.
Last edited by: Aretas on Fri 13 Jul 12 at 13:52
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I think it is worth adding that someone in the motoring trade described the new Yaris as "the most disappointing new car released this year".
+1
Toyota have lost the plot as far as I am concerned.
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>> I think it is worth adding that someone in the motoring trade described the new
>> Yaris as "the most disappointing new car released this year".
>>
>> +1
>>
>> Toyota have lost the plot as far as I am concerned.
>>
Friend was looking at the Yaris for his wife. Very disappointed and has since ordered a Citroen DS3
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The i10 seats are the one thing that I think lets it down
>> and unless they have changed them would be cautious of if you intend to do
>> any mileage.
>>
I quite agree, they get rather hard on the butt after about 100 miles. After our recent motorcycling mishap, we were given a Chevrolet Spark hire car to get us back home. Mrs HM and I both agreed that whilst the rest of the car was pretty average, the seats were much better than our i10; in fact they were as good as many cars with a far higher price tag.
One thing you do get in an i10 which might swing things for a younger driver, is a better than average sound system.
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How does the i20 compare cost wise to the i10? Roomier than the i10 and bigger boot than the Yaris.
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The i20 Comfort is about £1,300 more than the i10 Active - but it's good value (£2,000 less) against a Yaris 1.3 TR.
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Hyundai i10 - Hyundai i10 - good substitute for a Yaris? - RattleandSmoke
