A good friend informed me that his faily new BMW 7 series was recently stolen.
He has all the keys. Several other BMWs have also gone missing in the same area.
It seems that a guy with a laptop has been seen on CCTV at one of the events so it seems that some security systems can be beaten.
Steering wheel diskloks to become more popular?
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A couple of years back, a friend's Audi RS5 vanished overnight from his driveway. The keys were in the house, undisturbed. Leicestershire Constabulary told him it was a common occurrence, and the car would probably be halfway to Russia by the morning.
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Why do they want RHD cars there?
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Why do they want RHD cars there?
I guess for the price they aren't too bothered about rhd.
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Oops!
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 12 Sep 12 at 15:06
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For some reason most people can't understand why I keep my car in the garage, and don't use the garage for storing junk like they do.
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Is is possible to discuss in an open forum how this is being achieved. What are the manufacturers doing about it?
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Its not proven, doubtful, if crooks are cloning keys on the fly with handheld equipment.
Most are using a blocking technique, whereby you think the car is locked - but its not because the tea leaf jammed the radio frequency your key uses. Off you toddle, car unlocked, transporter arrives, off it goes.
95% of car theft* is now theft of keys from your home. The manufacturers can do nothing about your home security.
*modern cars. Traditional cars are still stolen in the traditional way.
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Thanks Zero. Oddly enough there has been comment this week about the potential risks related to the new contactless payment cards. Apparently the details of the card, apart from the 3 digit security code could perhaps be "read" by some one walking past with the appropriate scanning equipment and then the card can be copied and used for transactions greater than the £20 limit relating to the contactless purchases
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>> Thanks Zero. Oddly enough there has been comment this week about the potential risks related
>> to the new contactless payment cards. Apparently the details of the card, apart from the
>> 3 digit security code could perhaps be "read" by some one walking past with the
>> appropriate scanning equipment and then the card can be copied and used for transactions greater
>> than the £20 limit relating to the contactless purchases
Entirely possible, and thats why its limited to 20 quid a go. (wasn't it 15 quid?)
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>> Its not proven, doubtful, if crooks are cloning keys on the fly with handheld equipment.
>>
>> Most are using a blocking technique, whereby you think the car is locked - but
>> its not because the tea leaf jammed the radio frequency your key uses. Off you
>> toddle, car unlocked, transporter arrives, off it goes.
>>
My friend has his own security installation company and I suspect he is up to speed with what is going on behind the scenes :-)
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>> My friend has his own security installation company and I suspect he is up to
>> speed with what is going on behind the scenes :-)
Well he would say that wouldn't he! If he admits the security is good thats his business down the pan!
Ask him how 99% of prestige cars get nicked. _ he will tell you Keys! stolen from home.
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>> Is is possible to discuss in an open forum how this is being achieved. What
>> are the manufacturers doing about it?
>>
It's not clear how people are getting into the affected BMWs without the alarm going off, but once in, the slightly ridicuous issue that BMW have is that a key programmer can be hooked up to car's OBD port and used to programme a key to start the car.
BMW deny this is an issue (I suppose you'd expect that) but Police forces are well aware of it. Birmingham and London seem to be particularly affected areas.
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Getting in to cars has always (and always will be) easy. Its the nature of the beast.
Security is always a three plane thing.
1/Access
2/Only something you have
3/Only something you know.
Car makers have given up on 1/ its not really feasible.
Citroen tried 3/ with the keypad idea - bad idea for a french electronics company to try first.
So all makers have gone with 2/ only. Bad idea - 2 & 3 is needed.
Of course humans are always bad at 2/ - 50% of cars would have 12345 as the code number.
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>> It's not clear how people are getting into the affected BMWs without the alarm going
>> off, but once in, the slightly ridicuous issue that BMW have is that a key
>> programmer can be hooked up to car's OBD port and used to programme a key
>> to start the car.
There is video evidence of this on YouTube. It is ridiculously quick and easy with the right kit. Any secondhand key off eBay can be programmed to start the car inside of 30 seconds.
What sort of idiot designs a system which can have a key programmed so quickly without an original present, and without the car needing to be "powered up" first?
As for entry, one model of BMW is reported to have a blind spot on the alarm ultrasonics right around the area of the OBD port, and the window you need to break to get at it......
You couldn't make it up.
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>> >> Is is possible to discuss in an open forum how this is being achieved.
>> What are the manufacturers doing about it?
>>
Seems not a lot
>> It's not clear how people are getting into the affected BMWs without the alarm going off, but once in, the slightly ridicuous issue that BMW have is that a key
>> programmer can be hooked up to car's OBD port and used to programme a key
>> to start the car.
>>
>> BMW deny this is an issue (I suppose you'd expect that) but Police forces are
>> well aware of it. Birmingham and London seem to be particularly affected areas.
>>
I know its the DM but it seems there is a real problem re BMWs.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2169857/Alarming-moment-thieves-silently-steal-BMW-programming-blank-key-cost-just-70.html
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>> I know its the DM but it seems there is a real problem re BMWs.
>>
>> www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2169857/Alarming-moment-thieves-silently-steal-BMW-programming-blank-key-cost-just-70.html
>>
Why does the DM refer to the thieves as 'callous'? O.K. all theft is callous, but I wonder why they used that particular word.
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Nearly all adjectives are pointless and add nothing to the story, other than word count.
I've not done a thorough study, but I understand the print version of the Mail is more tightly written.
The online version is meant to be a slightly different offer to the paper one.
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>>The online version is meant to be a slightly different offer to the paper one<<
Not much use in the karsi either!
:}
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"For some reason most people can't understand why I keep my car in the garage"
I keep the car in a locked garage, unfortunately, it's cemented to the rest of the house and find it difficult to take both car and secured garage to Tesco/Lidl/Asda/shopping mall/school/bread shop/restaurant/family's house/park/pizza shop/chemist/clients/bar/hotel etc etc etc.
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>> I keep the car in a locked garage, unfortunately, it's cemented to the rest of
>> the house and find it difficult to take both car and secured garage to Tesco/Lidl/Asda/shopping
>> mall/school/bread shop/restaurant/family's house/park/pizza shop/chemist/clients/bar/hotel etc etc etc.
>>
:-D
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The likelihood of thieves stealing a modern bread and butter hatchback securely locked and with an immobileser fitted from a driveway in a low crime area are so low as to be safely ignored. High tech criminals are after high tech cars. Scumbags are after old cars with poor security, cars with keys in the ignition or stealing the car keys.
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thats just a study, there have been many with similar results, but nothing reported to say its escaped out of the lab into the real world.
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Seeing as these cars don't even have keys. it's not surprising they were not needed.
I imagine some sort of laptop and interface can be used to send a bunch of signals to the antenna and then just press the start button. Some Audis, Mercs etc... require fingerprint corroboration, but a man in Singapore or Malaysia (I forget) had his finger chopped off for his car.
Last edited by: sooty tailpipes on Wed 6 Jun 12 at 10:04
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German TV last year showed how easy it was to steal any car without keys it took them seconds and they also immobilised the tracker the equipment used was readily available although it did not say where.
Any so called prestige brands would be in Russia or Africa in days countries were there are no questions asked.
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15 years ago when the Sierra was a new car we were fitting our own "immoboliser" a very simple switch hidden down by the floor panel or anywhere it was sent through the ignition so when the ignition was ripped off and engine cranked it wouldn't fire.
I can't see why owners couldnt fit one today the only real problem may occur with the can bus wiring system it may play havoc, i have not tried it but better than your beamer getting nicked!!
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>>15 years ago when the Sierra was a new car we were fitting our own "immoboliser" a very simple switch hidden down by the floor panel or anywhere.
In the early sixties the well known Tecalamit had a solenoid operated fuel switch that could be inserted in the fuel line and operated by a hidden switch.
In the US another device was widely available.
It was a bonnet lock operated by a key under the dash.
In the cabin an amoured covered sheath from switch to bulkhead contained a bowden cable that operated the bonnet lock and wiring that would be used to switch off the igintion.
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I wired my Sierra's starter solenoid feed through a genuine front foglight switch liberated from a breakers, and mounted in one of the blanks in the switch panel (the car didn't have front foglights, but the switch was the correct one in the correct position, so looked factory fitted!) ;-).
Easy enough to work out and bypass if you had the time (or if it went wrong), but it would hold them up for a while.
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>> 15 years ago when the Sierra was a new car we were fitting our own
>> "immoboliser"
I know time passes quickly, but the Sierra wasn't a new car 15 years ago... IIRC it was launched nearer 30 years ago, and I think it's over twenty years since it was replaced by the Mondeo...
Having said that, the OBC in our old E30 325i had a 'code' function, requiring a PIN to get the car to start. Pretty easy to over-ride though I think. Not sure how good the Peugot/Citroen version that followed in the early/mid 90's was, but it didn't last long I don't think.
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Diskloks are the best answer. A total PITA even with the key.
I thought the modern BMW systems needed you to plug the key into the console to start the car or have they now done away with that?
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>> Diskloks are the best answer. A total PITA even with the key.
>>
I agree. My neighbour still uses on in his Transit.
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Makes you wonder spending lots of money on a prestige car.If they are that easy to nick.
Any car break the window and steal what is inside.Who is going to stop a few thugs?
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"Any car break the window and steal what is inside. Who is going to stop a few thugs?"
A Disklok, hold firmly using two hands from high at your right shoulder. Aim for back of thug's head while he's preoccupied sniffing around your car.
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Seriousley what has been mentioned before use a garage if you have one.
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>> Seriousley what has been mentioned before use a garage if you have one.
Most garages can be broken into in 30 seconds. The thieves then can work quietly out of sight.
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"Most garages can be broken into in 30 seconds."
Leave your hi-security car outside, a few millimetres in front of the garage door. Stops thieves from raising the garage door and stealing your paintbrushes and turps.
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Or maybe one of those raising bollards, like have on bus lanes in Manchester?
Right in front of your garage door, with a blipper to raise it and lower it.
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Look at this one CGN!
Stick this on the end of your drive?
tinyurl.com/bnzxl8t
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This one in the front garden?
tinyurl.com/cjamjo4
I really should do some work now...
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>> This one in the front garden?
>>
>> tinyurl.com/cjamjo4
You've got it all wrong. This.
thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/shotgun.jpg
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>> >> This one in the front garden?
>> >>
>> >> tinyurl.com/cjamjo4
>>
>> You've got it all wrong. This.
>>
>> thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/shotgun.jpg
>>
NO..
This will stop anything...tinyurl.com/c9bf7k4
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>> "Most garages can be broken into in 30 seconds."
>>
>> Leave your hi-security car outside, a few millimetres in front of the garage door. Stops
>> thieves from raising the garage door and stealing your paintbrushes and turps.
>>
Meths actually. Go on go on, say it (0:-0:)
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>> Most garages can be broken into in 30 seconds. The thieves then can work quietly
>> out of sight.
Mine has a Henderson Screwdrive electric opener and can only be opened with (a) the remote control, or (b) a switch inside the garage, or (c) by mechanically disconnecting (inside the garage) the door from the screw.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 7 Jun 12 at 07:37
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>> Makes you wonder spending lots of money on a prestige car.If they are that easy
>> to nick.
>>
>> Any car break the window and steal what is inside.Who is going to stop a
>> few thugs?
>>
If you've got enough money to buy a prestige car and someone trashes it, you just buy another while the first is being repaired.
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Something like this L'es, the Armoured XJ Sentinel
www.jaguar.com/gl/en/about_jaguar/armoured_xj
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"Any car break the window and steal what is inside.Who is going to stop a few thugs?"
Penetrating the windows is harder now many cars have laminated glass all round. It's especially common on premium cars and cabriolets and increasingly for side-impact ratings in conjunction with curtain airbags on every day models.
FF>> to 2:22
www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9UCRYKZqTM
Last edited by: sooty tailpipes on Wed 6 Jun 12 at 20:37
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I thought side windows were breakable to allow emergency access in an accident.
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He used a small screwdriver and hammer.I see your point car windows are stronger.
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I understand (!) that souped up automatic centre punches are good for breaking side windows. tinyurl.com/d89ndeu
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 7 Jun 12 at 07:44
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I saw a Bentley recently with a disc lock on - looked totally stupid but now I can understand why!
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>> I saw a Bentley recently with a disc lock on - looked totally stupid but
>> now I can understand why!
Given the increasing tendency of modern high end car thieves to kick their victims doors in in the dead of night, and threaten them and their families with all sorts in order to get their car keys, I'd personally rather they drove the thing peacefully away with their key coding gadget.
Lock it and take reasonable precautions, by all means, but if they really want it, they are going to take it, by force if necessary. A sad fact of life in modern Britain.
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Do disc locks make any difference? With the right tool (yours for under £30), picking a bicycle U-lock or chain lock with the same round keys is at least as easy as using the correct key.
A friend of mine who worked for a locksmith who did repossessions of cars for finance companies reckoned that these things added twenty to thirty seconds to the time it took him to nick the car. Maybe they're better these days, but I guess not...
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>> Do disc locks make any difference? With the right tool (yours for under £30), picking
>> a bicycle U-lock or chain lock with the same round keys is at least as
>> easy as using the correct key.
>>
>> A friend of mine who worked for a locksmith who did repossessions of cars for
>> finance companies reckoned that these things added twenty to thirty seconds to the time it
>> took him to nick the car. Maybe they're better these days, but I guess not...
>>
All the pretend car thief shows seem to suggest you can't get into them in under 15 minutes. The crook locks are just knocked off in no time.
That's quite a concern if the locks on them are that useless. Seems rather dumb to have a great big steel thingy and have a useless pickable lock on it!
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Excuse thread drift. I understand from an informed colleague that the details of biometric passports and "Touch to Pay" credit/debit cards can be captured by a passer-by with the right electronic equipment. This has generated demand for shielded holders
www.rfid-shield.com/products.php
A cheaper suggestion is to use a metallised crisp packet as a wrapper but I don't think this is a proven precaution
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I read somewhere the contactless cards transmit a weak signal all the time.
Wrapping it in kitchen foil is enough to block the signal.
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Great - I can use the kitchen foil out of my bobble hat. I don't think contactless cards can transmit as they don't have a power source but they can respond to an electronic "query" from a pay machine
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>> I read somewhere the contactless cards transmit a weak signal all the time.
I understood that the systems use induction so the chip on the card is not transmitting all the time. The signal is meant to be fairly weak too so you need to place the card on the reader. When I've used contactless payment the transaction was only completed when the card was on the reader and not a few inches away as you brought it near.
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>> ... that the details of biometric passports..... can be captured by a passer-by with the right electronic equipment.
>> This has generated demand for shielded holders
>>
I have a shielded camera case that I might at last find a use for.
( I bought a small digital camera from the USA and it came with a free camera case that shields films from airport x ray machines) I had to smile.
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... and if you don't want the break the windows, you fit a jammer and hope the driver doesn't notice that the car hasn't locked
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9369783/Thieves-placed-bugs-and-hacked-onboard-computers-of-luxury-cars.html
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>>Wrapping it in kitchen foil is enough to block the signal.<<
Like most of the other 'rumours' it doesn't work:)
Lorry drivers around the world have been trying these ideas to make them invisible from the vehicle tracker in the cab!
Pat
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A vehicle tracker must transmit/receive with sufficient power, presumably, to reach a satellite or base station.
Weaker radio devices, such as a mobile phone, tend not to work as well in my caravan because it's a tin box - Faraday cage.
Blocking an even weaker signal from a plastic card ought to be easier.
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the card transmits nothing, one would need to walk around with an inductor and get within 1/2 inch of you. Noticeable.
And for Pats mates, how much are they prepared to pay to disappear? I can make them GPS invisible on demand for 250 quid. Even the klingons with their cloaking device would be impressed.
Apparently the North Koreans have routinely been killing GPS signals for 100km either side of the border.
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Someone in USA has managed to hi-jack a drone (temporarily). I understand he managed to generate signals or blocking at a strength greater than the very weak genuine satellite signals.
tinyurl.com/caavz2e
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People are in a dream world if they think they can protect their property from a determined thief and if by some long shot you actually caught them nothing would happen to them.
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Indeed. Thanks to internet enabled devices, people have been caught red-handed using stolen laptops and tablets, and still there is "insufficient evidence to prosecute"...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18504424
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>> Indeed. Thanks to internet enabled devices, people have been caught red-handed using stolen laptops and
>> tablets, and still there is "insufficient evidence to prosecute"...
Quite right too. There is no law against using stolen property. Just as well really.
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Maybe there is.
A person handles stolen goods if (otherwise than in the course of the stealing) knowing or believing them to be stolen goods he dishonestly receives the goods, or dishonestly undertakes or assists in their retention, removal, disposal or realisation by or for the benefit of another person, or if he arranges to do so.
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There is the offence of "Handling Stolen Property" is there not? We can get prosecuted for dropping a sweet wrapper, without photographic evidence, bu we can't be prosecuted for being in possession of, and using, a £500 stolen laptop - surely not?
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In those circumstances depending on what the suspect said, he'd be charged with theft or handling, more likely to deny the theft and cop a handling which carries a higher tariff.
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 10 Jul 12 at 11:01
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The offence of handling is now often charged as 'possession of criminal property', which is a Proceeds of Crime Act offence.
There has been some legal debate about it, as this extract from the CPS website shows:
Prosecutors should consider whether the provisions of sections 327 to 329 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 provide an appropriate alternative to offences of handling stolen goods.
The Court of Appeal has considered criticisms of the use of (in particular) section 329 of the Act (acquisition, use or possession of criminal property) rather than an offence of handling stolen goods in some cases. This is particularly the case where the defendant is found in possession of only a small amount or value of stolen goods that do not immediately suggest that the defendant is routinely involved in money laundering activities.
In the cases of CPS Nottinghamshire v Kevin Rose and The Queen v Gareth Lee Whitwam [2008] EWCA Crim 239 the court indicated a preference for the use of handling stolen goods in straightforward cases, but did not go so far as to say that it was wrong in principle or unlawful to use the offences in the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002.
www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/theft_act_offences/index.html#a26
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>>knowing or believing them to be stolen
Quite.
There are 1,648 second-hand iPads on ebay at the moment. And 10,219 iPhones.
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Sometimes it works. - An interesting story.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18739151
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I have "locate my iPhone" enabled on mine. Works well to about 10 yards or so. Till the battery goes flat.
Thankfully tea leaves are so stupid they don't turn the damn thing off after they nick it.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 10 Jul 12 at 10:58
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>> Thankfully tea leaves are so stupid they don't turn the damn thing off after they
>> nick it.
>>
There are some funny stories out there to illustrate the point, e.g.
"A 40-year-old Chicago-area man allegedly robbed a Chicago bank on Friday using a threatening note written on the back of his own pay slip, which was printed with his name and home address."
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/29/chicago-bank-robbery-pay-slip
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Son left his iPhone in a taxi late one night in London, Fortunately he was last customer before the driver went home to bed.
Next morning son tracked the phone and finished up waking the driver, in I think Slough and asking him if he could retrieve his phone off the back seat. Lucky son!
The driver got his first tip of the day in his own drive !
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>> People are in a dream world if they think they can protect their property from
>> a determined thief and if by some long shot you actually caught them nothing would
>> happen to them.
>>
I often wonder how those who believe that criminals are never captured nor punished square their belief with the fact that our prisons are overcrowded. Are we locking up thousands of innocent people? Are prisons full of cardboard cutouts or monkeys dressed as Ronnie Barker?
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There is more daily crime than prisoners, so they ain't caught are they
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OTOH, one criminal can commit more than one crime... ;)
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>> OTOH, one criminal can commit more than one crime... ;)
>>
Either way he is still not in jail
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Depends whether the crime is committed in jail or not? :-P
Last edited by: oilburner on Wed 12 Sep 12 at 16:57
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19562487
In some parts of the country police have been leafleting BMW owners, warning them of the possibility of this kind of theft.
"We are already in the process of enhancing the protection of pre-September 2011 X5 and X6 models and have been contacting owners and carrying out the necessary work accordingly."
Watch the full report on BBC One's Watchdog on Wednesday 12 September 2012 at 2000 BST. Or watch afterwards on BBC iPlayer.
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Wasn't I only reading yesterday about stealing 80s Escorts with a screwdriver? It seems times haven't changed all that much...
"Enhanced protection.." :)
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I can understand that some cars can have their electrics fudged so that entry is possible and, presumably, to start the engine without a key but what about the steering lock? That surely is mechanical in any car or is it just ripped out/off to drive away?
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A BMW owning colleague tells me that even the steering lock is electronically controlled, in some models
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A neighbour has an early-2011 X5. It's in no danger of being stolen, though, as whenever it's on his drive he's standing beside it with his pressure washer.
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I have a current Passat - no way the steering lock can be anything but electronically operated.
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BMW stolen without stealing its keys. - Dave_
