Maybe not yet, but perhaps soon?
tinyurl.com/75fm2v4
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Banco Santander is a strong bank. But no bank can stand a run on deposits, and certainly not in the current conditions where wholesale money is not moving around.
The Spaniels may well be drawing their cash out so as to preserve it if Spain bins the Euro in due course. It's certainly happned in Greece already, with wealthy Greeks snapping up London property and less wealthy ones burying Euros in the garden.
When Greece converts the Euros to new drachmas, the value of savings will evaporate and they'll be searching cars at the border to stop people getting their Euros out illegally.
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The Daily Mail is scaremongering just to have a headline.
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"no bank can stand a run on deposits"
Withdrawals, shorely? :-)
I'd say that whether or not they HAD problems, downgrading their rating will most likely create some.
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>> "no bank can stand a run on deposits"
>>
>> Withdrawals, shorely? :-)
"run on deposits" is correct, because they are demanding their deposits back.
In theory, there shouldn't be a run on the bank, because the vast majority of deposits should be covered by the £85,000 rule, and that fact is probably fairly widely known.
Still, there is no accounting for crowd behaviour, if it gains momentum. Still, I'd be very surprised.
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Calm down Greece is a small economy they have made a mess of their finances.The Germans will keep the boat afloat.,;)
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>> Calm down Greece is a small economy they have made a mess of their finances.
Wrong thread Dutchie.
The perceived risks to Santander have little to do with Greek defaulting or leaving the Euro.
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The Santander threat is from Spanish depositors - I don't know what their equivalent of the FSCS is, but it's not relevant if the mob's fear is that their Euros will be converted into worthless pesetas at some stage, and that the government may introduce a limit on withdrawals in the meantime.
There is an implied threat to Santander UK lest it be drained to prop up the parent, but as SS says the FSCS will protect most consumers in UK.
The only way Germany can bail them all out is effectively to take them over, and ze European Superstate vill haf arrived!!!
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 20 May 12 at 16:47
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Santander UK, from a banking perspective, is separate from Banco Santander. The parent could go bust and the UK bank could happily continue to run with no responsibility to bail out the parent.
Of course your average Santander customer won't appreciate that, so a run on the bank in Spain could trigger a run on the bank in the UK.
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Santander UK is run completely separately from its Spanish parent, which is therefore unable to drain it to prop up its own balance sheet, and the FSA is supposed to make certain this doesn't happen. But what did the FSA do in 2008? Spreading balances around to take advantage of the FSCS seems sensible...
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It depends what you mean by drained. There's nothing to prevent Santander UK lending to the parent, subject always to UK regulation and capital requirements. That wouldn't make it go bust, but it could reduce its ability to lend elsewhere, e.g. into the UK mortgage market of which it has a big share, and it has tightened conditions on some of its mortgage lending.
I wouldn't be worried about having up to £85,000 on deposit with Santander UK. In fact, that would be a nice problem to have ;-)
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 20 May 12 at 17:13
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>> It depends what you mean by drained. There's nothing to prevent Santander UK lending to
>> the parent, subject always to UK regulation and capital requirements. That wouldn't make it go
>> bust, but it could reduce its ability to lend elsewhere, e.g. into the UK mortgage
>> market of which it has a big share, and it has tightened conditions on some
>> of its mortgage lending.
There is everything to stop it lending money to its parent. Its parent has now been downgraded, and Santander (UK)'s risk management process should kick in and not lend money to its parent, without any credit guarantees - It has no obligation to do so.
>> I wouldn't be worried about having up to £85,000 on deposit with Santander UK. In
>> fact, that would be a nice problem to have ;-)
I would- Its a crap bank and likely to loose your 85 grand by sticking it in the wrong account, rather than going bust
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Likely your information is better than mine, but I'd be amazed if there isn't intra-group lending going on all the time. The lack of liquidity in the wholesale markets derives not from a shortage of funds but a reluctance on the part of banks to lend to each other.
Incidentally, the downgrades also affected the UK part of Santander. If you register free with Moodys you can access ratings and the press releases, as well as an explanation of the rating scales. I haven't bothered in this instance as I decided some time ago that I won't live long enough to understand the multiple ratings system.
A point worth noting is that apart from the downgrade, the outlook is said to be 'negative'. That means there are quite likely to be more downgrades.
Everything is correlated now, nothing is immune. That is why gilt yields are so low, with investors prepared to accept a negative real return for the guarantee of UK plc. Fortunately for us ordinary mortals, we get that guarantee anyway providing we don't put >£85k with a single institution.
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>> Likely your information is better than mine, but I'd be amazed if there isn't intra-group
>> lending going on all the time. The lack of liquidity in the wholesale markets derives
>> not from a shortage of funds but a reluctance on the part of banks to
>> lend to each other.
Exactly. What you have here is in effect two banks lending - or as you say, not.
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I believe that Santander UK is run as a stand alon unit and has very little exposure to Spain. The assets of the UK division are ring fenced so will not be syphoned off to prop up other parts of the group.
Usual DM journalism - the downgrade appears to give them the same credit rating as bank of Scotland, Halifax, Co-Op etc
EDIT - looks like several of us thought the same!
Last edited by: mikeyb on Sun 20 May 12 at 17:07
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My parents are leaving their money in, not that it is a fortune but people withdrawing money is partly what caused the mess of Northern Rock.
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I wonder how much, in theory, Santander could cope with in terms of a run on deposits (which can, of course, happen even if there is no good reason to trigger it).
From the Guardian:
"Some £200m more than usual was withdrawn from branches of Santander UK on Friday after the downgrading of its credit rating and that of its parent group in Spain. The bank, however, said this was only a "modest increase" - less than 0.2% of its retail deposits and tiny compared with the bank's liquidity buffer of £35bn."
My reading of that is that they have taken deposits in excess of £100bn and have immediate access to £35bn.
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I think the most likely scenerio, if Santander in Spain runs into real trouble would be a sale of their UK arm. That would give them the liquidity they need, the bank is reasonable healthy, so over here it would just be a rebranding exercise.
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Would anyone buy them?
My business account is just being transferred from NatWest to Santander rbsbranchinformation.co.uk/Home/Personal, does the team think I should worry?
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Yes you should worry. They are financially sound, but the worse, most inefficient, most complained about bank.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 20 May 12 at 22:49
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We are with them as we are with others too. There are far worse banks than Santander. Haven't hurt us so far.
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>> Would anyone buy them?
>>
By those in the know yes, their 'books' are ok. But as Zero says they are poor in terms of looking after customers, although I've got an account with them and not had any problems but I understand they are pretty bad.
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Noted that you are being transferred rather than transferring. As said, they don't have a great reputation for getting things right. A lot of this is to do with systems, you won't be surprised to hear. Try not to do anything complicated for a while!
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If the Spanish and British bits are separate, why did they saddle the British half with the distinctly dodgy name "Santander"?
And don't they realise that saying things like "there is no run on deposits" is a bit like the PM saying "I have complete confidence in X". Both usually mean the exact opposite.
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>> If the Spanish and British bits are separate, why did they saddle the British half
>> with the distinctly dodgy name "Santander"?
Largely a question of corporate c****** - one brand Europewide. IMHO they'd have been better off sticking with Abbey (National) but the previous managment had seriously devalued that by use of foreign call centres etc etc.
[EDIT] For goodness sake, does the Spanish slang for testicles really need to be asterisked out!!!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 21 May 12 at 09:24
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I think it was Abbey National who instilled the customer care, and IT systems into Santander. They certainly are very closely matched in the crap stakes.
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>> I think it was Abbey National who instilled the customer care, and IT systems into
>> Santander. They certainly are very closely matched in the crap stakes.
I wish. If they had, we'd probably still bank with them.
We were very happy Abbey National customers for 15 years. We had a mortgage, three current accounts and a savings account with them.
Within 6 months of Santander takeover, the call centre was outsourced to India, and the customer service disappeared. More seriously, the cock ups started in earnest. Botched transfers, money "disappearing" for days at a time, and even stupid things like not cancelling a direct debit when asked. The Indian staff didn't have a clue. And you simply couldn't speak to anyone who had any authority to do anything about the problems.
Needless to say, we are no longer Santander customers. I have never known an organisation go so spectacularly downhill so quickly.
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I knew that this was a case of deja vu - see the previous thread
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=8483&m=187304&v=e
and my contribution.........................
I spent the best part of an hour in a Santander Branch trying to retrieve money from a dormant account that had been thro 2 takeovers, (IIRC, it started life as a Bradford & Bingo Account). During that time not only was I told a pack of lies, (different lies from different people), but witnessed many disgruntled customers trying unsucessfully to effect the simplest transactions. They represented about 50% of the Bank visitors! In each and every case, had I been the unfortunate punter, I would have closed the account on the spot.
Never again will I enter their premises, physical or virtual!
Last edited by: pmh on Mon 21 May 12 at 15:20
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After 10 years living in Spain, I can tell you that with very few exceptions, Spanish businesses do not understand customer service.
Nice though many Spaniards are, their mindset does not seem to extend to service as we in the UK are used to.
Mañana is a way of life and urgency in supplying goods or services is not a priority.
Supermarket cashiers, for instance,are surprised if a "thank you" is directed at them.
I asked a Spanish friend about this and the explanation was that "I am paid to do this, this and this. I will do no more than I am paid for and I neither expect, nor generally receive, thanks for what is a purely commercial transaction".
In their family life please and thank-you are not often used, as the view is taken that en-famille, every member is happy to assist any other member of the family as a matter of course.
"Pass the salt" (no please) is the way condiments are requested at a family dinner table. It is a pleasure to assist any fellow member of the family and thanks are not necessary.
I think this explains the attitude that has spread into Santander UK.
A commercial transaction, with as little personal interaction as possible.
Having said that, larger businesses with a strong history of dealing with Britons do tend top be more forthcoming. We found our bank, CAM - now gone!) to be staffed by really nice people. The national chain department store El Corte Ingles was perhaps the only shop where good UK standards of service were given.
Last edited by: Roger on Mon 21 May 12 at 16:13
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We have a direct telephone line to our branch. Problem....what problem?
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>> If the Spanish and British bits are separate, why did they saddle the British half with the distinctly dodgy name "Santander"?
Don't know the real reason but there may be hidden tax avoidance logic behind that.
There was a BBC Panorama show on tax avoidance which explained how a multinational corporation can transfer billions of pound from one country to another country's branch as "loan" and then avoid tax by showing "interest" on that huge loan as "expenses".
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Presumably when you're spending millions on advertising via international events such as F1, it makes sense to have international brands
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If I ran McLaren I'd be looking for a new sponsor!
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 22 May 12 at 13:13
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If I ran Santander, I would be looking for a new team to sponsor.
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If I ran Santander, I would abscond with as much money as possible .
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From Wikipedia:
"Santander is frequently ranked the worst bank in the UK for customer service.[7] Between 2007 and 2010 it was ranked as worst bank for customer service in the JD Power UK Retail Banking Satisfaction Study, however in the 2011 survey it improved to second worst.[7][8]"
However, Santander regained its position as the worst Bank in 2012.
[7] "Santander Britains Worst Bank?". The Guardian. 26 Feb 2011.
[8] "2011 UK Retail Banking Satisfaction Survey".
[9] www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/banking/2012/02/santander-worst-for-service-and-first-direct-best-mdash-again
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Somebody has to be the worst ;-)
They have a lot of personal customers, disproportionately so because of the component bits, and they've all had their accounts migrated to a different system with varying degrees of success. I think that has more to do with the lack of customer satisfaction than the Spanish attitude to saying thank you - the UK people are mainly British.
Doesn't change the facts though - wouldn't be my choice if I wanted things to work properly all the time.
I think I moved to Firstdirect in 1989. Can't really fault them. Even sorted me a mortgage out after Egg accused me of lying about my salary (they couldn't multiply a four-weekly payment by 13).
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>> lying about my salary
>>
Isn't this perfectly normal when applying for a credit card? ;-)
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Tue 22 May 12 at 22:31
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Possibly. It was a mortgage. They asked for my salary. I told them. They asked for pay slips. I sent them. They then rescinded their acceptance in principle. I asked why. They said that my salary was not what I had stated. Despite the fact that I told them they were 4-weekly pay periods which was clearly stated on the slips, they multiplied by 12 and came up with a lower number.
I rang Firstdirect (which I should have done in the first place) at 8pm that evening, and they agreed to what I wanted within an hour. It had taken Egg about 3 weeks to make a cock of it.
Funny thing about Egg, born out of Prudential, was they positioned themselves as all internetty and modern, not like those fuddy duddy building societies with their long drawn out processes. It turned out that they were exactly what they said they weren't.
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Yes, I used to* have a credit card with Egg but like you discovered they were bureaucratic and indifferent to problems.
* Technically I still have it, as I left the account open with a 2p credit simply to ensure I cost them money when they send out a statement once a year.
** Yes, I know it's Barclays now but I don't like Bob Diamond either.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Tue 22 May 12 at 23:06
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Pru eventually offloaded Egg to Citi, and in the wake of the banking crisis the card book went to Barclays, and the savings and mortgages to fuddy duddy Yorkshire Building Society, appropriately I thought.
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I'm with Smile for my primary account. Friendly, efficient, good communicators, bailed me out of a sticky situation one Saturday thanks to useless Inchcape (VW), very good in a crisis (bereavement) and ethical - recommend them to anyone.
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I am given to understanding that Santander (like many others who have pursued M&A) have a strategy of replacing all systems in acquisitions with their own systems rather than attempting alternative lighter forms of integration. This is a valid (in fact text-book) approach - assuming those systems and processes meet your business objectives of course.
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I'll just add myself to the list of people who had a bad experience with Santander, and who will never go anywhere near them ever again.
You wouldn't believe how difficult they made it for me to get my money out of my savings account. They admitted to a major error in procedure and said that they would launch a full investigation and get in touch within 14 days.
That was three months ago and I still have not heard anything. I've left them now so I don't really care TBH.
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>>
>> You wouldn't believe how difficult they made it for me to get my money out
>> of my savings account.
>>
The same here. We have a club account. The officers changed and we tried to change the cheque signatories. 4 years later and we are still arguing. Our £200 is probably propping up the Spanish economy.
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>> That was three months ago and I still have not heard anything. I've left them
>> now so I don't really care TBH.
>>
You should raise it with the FSA. I believe that they have to respond within a set time, and hate things being raised with the FSA for non resolution.
I have raised complaints with Bank of Scotland on 2 occasions, and in both cases they were very keen to resolve the issue direct with me quickly, so although they cocked up, they did try to fix things.
For the cost of a stamp it may bring you a nice warm feeling.
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Spoke to NatWest today, the only way I can NOT be transferred to Santander is to close the account and start a new one, and I wouldn't get free banking for two years, like I have now.
So Santander it is then...
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>> Spoke to NatWest today, the only way I can NOT be transferred to Santander is
>> to close the account and start a new one, and I wouldn't get free banking
>> for two years, like I have now.
>>
>> So Santander it is then...
>>
We get free banking.
We have Basic bank accounts with HSBC & Yorkshire Bank.
Surely a place to receive & disburse money is all that is needed for most people?
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Most people in this country have "free" banking. It looks like the Bank of England would like to end this model.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18186363
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I was talking about a business account, I understood they aren't usually free.
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The reason Santander is in trouble is because too much Santander money ends up in Lewis Hamilton's bank account.
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I see Santander being rescued within the next 3 years.
(By the Spanish state - "too big to fail" )
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+ BBVA, Banco Sabadell, Banco Popular..................................................
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In our smallish coastal village on the Costa del Sol, there were at one time, no less than 16 different bank branches!
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>> In our smallish coastal village on the Costa del Sol, there were at one time,
>> no less than 16 different bank branches!
>>
All no doubt managed by a Captain Mainwaring..
Last edited by: madf on Thu 24 May 12 at 08:29
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They deserve to be. From personal and finace page complaints, it is the wrorst of all the large banks for customer service.
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The Spanish Bank Bankia shares ere suspended today.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18202671
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A "statistic2 on a programme recently said IIRC "there are move vacant properties in Spain than in the whole of the USA"
That is a lot of money to raise !!
While we have cheap money lets spend spend!!
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9288873/Spain-to-close-up-to-30-state-run-airports.html
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Santander in problems? - Manatee
