I refuse to accept I am a luddite, but modern cars are becoming so “alive with technology” that I worry about running one much beyond warranty. OK I consider ABS, ESP and plenty of airbags as minimum requirements, and I like the idea of turbo charging small engines to improve economy. However adding stop-start, regenerative braking, smart coolant pumps etc. just to lower CO2 for the flawed Euro economy cycle does not inspire me with confidence. “Mechanics” struggle to fix existing systems without the expensive “suck it and see” approach so this technology worries me long term. An example is my old VW TDI that had a problem with hot starting that dealers could not fix. This would have been a nightmare if stop start was also fitted!
Any thoughts, or is the choice now drive an old banger or keep it in warranty?
Joe
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>>Any thoughts
People have been saying similar things since the introduction of positive crankcase ventilation, front wheel drive, overhead camshafts, hydraulic tappetscamshaft drive belts, electronic ignition, fuel injection, etc, etc, where in reality the car has become more usably, more reliable and more cost effective.
Yes, there are hiccups, usually just after the introduction of a new technology, but, in the longer term these problems are overcome. So, at the moment, common rail diesel, DMF and DPF have a bad name, and while the technology is still immature (see MB Blue Efficiency injectors!), there will be teethig trouble.
Mechanics have always struggled to diagnose and fix cars properly - even in the days of carbs and contact breaker points. Nothing has really changed - apart from the cost of their (often poor!) guesses. The problem has always been that people are reluctant to pay for proper diagnosis.
This used to be seen often in the back room. Many people first-time posting on Technical with a problem were much more receptive to poke and hope type responses than they were to responses which suggested they carried out some investigation.
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Just buy Toyota - apart from occasional glitches, the electronics work for decades. See 20 year old LS400s and Carinas.
Of course if you buy Mercedes, they last about 5 miles before the injectors fail...
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>> Just buy Toyota - apart from occasional glitches, the electronics work for decades.
Pity the gearboxes, diesel cylinder heads, accelerators and brakes dont.
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>> >>
>> People have been saying similar things since the introduction of positive crankcase ventilation front wheel
>> drive overhead camshafts hydraulic tappetscamshaft drive belts electronic ignition fuel injection etc etc where in
>> reality the car has become more usably more reliable and more cost effective.
>>
I agree that many things have improved reliability, my first car needed servicing every six months, contacts and timing adjusting regularly etc. Its just that stop start etc are only there to artificially reduce CO2 not any other reason.
>> Mechanics have always struggled to diagnose and fix cars properly - even in the days
>> of carbs and contact breaker points. Nothing has really changed - apart from the cost
>> of their (often poor!) guesses. The problem has always been that people are reluctant to
>> pay for proper diagnosis.
>>
>> This used to be seen often in the back room. Many people first-time posting on
>> Technical with a problem were much more receptive to poke and hope type responses than
>> they were to responses which suggested they carried out some investigation.
Problem is that now "the computer says no" factor plays a part, even when a fault is obvious. Diagnostics now seems to consist of plug in the computer and ask for 50 to 100ukp!
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>>Diagnostics now seems to consist of plug in the computer and ask for 50 to 100ukp!
The really good thing that's happening here is that now at least some level of diagnostic kit is available for DIYers at an affordable price. Yes, it doesn't have all the bells and whistles, and yes, it does sometimes get it wrong - BUT - I expect this type of equipment will also get better and better over time, as it has been doing over the last few years.
The annoying thing is that the extra cost required to implement decent fully onboard diagnoistics at build time is utterly negligible. Many cars already have a reasonably sized screen with some buttons next to it - the inclusion of the extra software and hardware to allow the ECUs on the CAN bus to be interrogated and the data displayed on the in car screen, when spread across the thousands of cars produced would barely approach £1.
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>> I refuse to accept I am a luddite >>
>>
I'm relieved to hear that. Luddites destroyed modern machinery in a futile effort to delay progress. If you haven't deliberately smashed anything recently then be assured you are not a luddite:)
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>> I'm relieved to hear that. Luddites destroyed modern machinery in a futile effort to delay
>> progress. If you haven't deliberately smashed anything recently then be assured you are not a
>> luddite:)
>>
I am only tempted to smash modern technology when it blue screens for no apparent reason :-)
Joe
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"I am only tempted to smash modern technology when it blue screens for no apparent reason :-)"
Change to Linux then, no blue screens just bliss .....
After pulling your hair out setting the beast up !
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I have not seen a blue screen for two years plus.. XP. Plus TuneUP Utilities..
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I must confess I am worried too about this. Modern Diesels are already overburdened with complexity. As far as hybrids and electrics are concerned there is the cost of replacing batteries and range matters to consider as well.
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>> I must confess I am worried too about this. Modern Diesels are already overburdened with
>> complexity. As far as hybrids and electrics are concerned there is the cost of replacing
>> batteries and range matters to consider as well.
>>
IMHO you are right to be worried.
cars today are on the whole basically more reliable than in the past BUT when they do go wrong, they are uneconomical to repair.
for example, 20 years ago,car suffers from poor running - carb worn, 2nd hand carb from scrappy £30.
today, car suffers from poor running - O2 sensor? £80 MAF? £100? ECU? £1000....
if you don't believe that, look around other forums, A Class Mercs are costing people more than their worth to fix
EG a MAF sensor on those is part of the engine ECU a grand from Mercs, and LOCKED to the chassis number so unusable from another car!
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Yes there was an article in CAR magazine this month, one of the column, that says that todays cars will never become classics because the computer systems will become obsolete within a matter or a few years: several years hence the systms will be totally out of date.
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isafunny thing this computering of everything and loading cars up with every bit of electronic tat imaginable.
Try selling a fairly simple totally reliable used car especially of the more luxury type without every single extra being ticked by the original owner,no one wants them, Golf/Leon etc..does it have DSG...no...don't want it, heaven knows how much they'll cost when they go wrong but they are a must have.
And the biggest must have, climate control, what the heck was wrong with the good old standard 3 controls and an on/off button for aircon for those unable to open a window.
I just cant figure it out, most of the worthless toys now put on cars will go kaput and will cost an arm and leg to put right in due course, but you can't give away a car that doesn't have them....provoking comments of 'poverty spec' on forums etc from those used to better things.
I can understand company and other drivers who renew their cars as the warranty expires, i can't for the life of me work out why subsequent owners who have to foot their own bills want the tat.
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I think a distinction needs to be made between niceties like aircon/climate control and the extraneous fripperies which now adorn the engines and gearboxes.
Owners of older cars are, I think, happy enough to live without some of the creature comforts if they fail, but the problem is with components like dual mass flywheels, common rail injection systems, particle filters, computerised stability control/ABS systems, CAN-bus electrics etc.
Years ago, all the clever technology initially appeared on the top of the range models, only filtering down to the mass market once it had become cheaper and more reliable. However, mostly thanks to emissions legislation, expensive new technology is being bolted onto honest, workaday cars like Fiestas and Corsas, before it's extant and cheap to fix. This means that your five-year-old Fiesta, worth £5k, can present you with a £3k bill for a new pump and injectors. Short of blowing the engine up, there wasn't anything expensive enough under the bonnet to do that to you on a 1995 equivalent...
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An example of the caos caused by this was on my old car.
Symptom - anti pinch failed.
Identified fault - window winder motor.
New motor fitted
2nd Symptom - no central locking
Identified fault - new door computer in winder motor not talking to convinience computer
New central computer fited
3rd Symptom - No convinience functions
identified fault - Car coding lost
Complete recoding of car to renable functions
Total cost over 1k for a broken leccy window. Thank goodness for a warrenty!
(turns out that if you have a delphi central computer all the things connected have to also be delphi. Mine was a mixture of Bosch and Delphi - ended up all Bosch! so much for interchangability)
Joe
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Future Reliability and "green" systems - Number_Cruncher
