Non-motoring > Consumer Law. Legal Questions
Thread Author: Bobby Replies: 47

 Consumer Law. - Bobby
iPhone 11. 24 month contract with EE directly starting May 2020.

Phone has a hardware problem which can best be described as “colour run” in two areas of screen.

Took into Apple Shop and the Genius guy confirmed it was phone fault and not user fault. However as phone is outwith it’s 12 months they would charge me for replacement screen. However he did say to me to go back to EE as under “Consumer Law” they are responsible even after the first year. He advised they would refuse and bluff me but this was a little known Law.

As predicted EE did exactly that.

Well it is very little known as I can’t find it anywhere online that covers this scenario.

Anyone any similar experience/ knowledge on this?
 Consumer Law. - Bromptonaut
So the phone was supplied to you by EE and the contract is with EE?

Apple offer a 12 month guarantee which they say is additional to your legal rights?

In England I'd say you'd possibly have a claim against EE based on the quality/durability of the product. May be different over the Border though.
 Consumer Law. - Biggles
I believe this is the origin of the two year rule:
eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A01999L0044-20111212
Not sure if there is any UK implementing legislation beyond the Consumer Rights Act combined with the six year limitation period.
 Consumer Law. - No FM2R
Well, it's been a while, but as I recall within 6 months the seller has to prove that the fault was not existing at the time of sale and after 6 months the buyer has to prove that it was. Difficult to do unless it is a known fault with other instances.

It may have a manufacturer's guarantee but, as you say, that is only 12months in the case of an iPhone.

A phone, like anything, must be fit for purpose. Perhaps if it was supplied to you as part of an n month contract it would be reasonable to say that it should last n months.

Since in this case that is 24 months then I'd be causing noise around that.

There's no little known law as far as I know, just the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl

Though there was EU directive 1999/44/EC

Not anymore though.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 10 Jun 21 at 18:27
 Consumer Law. - bathtub tom
Bobby, are you anywhere within the 3CR area, if so I suggest you listen in after 11:00AM, wekday mornings (if not, it's on t'interweb).
 Consumer Law. - sooty123
God, that bloke (no idea of his name) is annoying. Thankful I don't listen to the radio much.
 Consumer Law. - Zero
You are in effect "renting" or have the phone on credit (depends on the type of phone contract) therefore EE is responsible during that period if its faulty through no fault of yours.
 Consumer Law. - Bromptonaut
>> God, that bloke (no idea of his name) is annoying. Thankful I don't listen to
>> the radio much.

Is that the EE ads?

Drove us mad during the TdeF last year on ITV 4
 Consumer Law. - sooty123
No, the one who does consumer stuff on 3cr.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 11 Jun 21 at 03:15
 Consumer Law. - bathtub tom
>> God, that bloke (no idea of his name) is annoying. Thankful I don't listen to
>> the radio much.

Apparently, he vacuums his house twice a day and his car every day. I believe he's not married.
 Consumer Law. - bathtub tom
>> God, that bloke (no idea of his name) is annoying. Thankful I don't listen to
>> the radio much.

He does get results. I've listened to him for years (with half an ear), but I suspect he announces himself as a BBC employee on a consumer affairs program.
 Consumer Law. - No FM2R
>> God, that bloke (no idea of his name) is annoying. Thankful I don't listen to
>> the radio much.
>>

Is this the amazingly dickish Jonathan Vernon-Smith?
 Consumer Law. - bathtub tom
>>Is this the amazingly dickish Jonathan Vernon-Smith?

During the first lockdown, lavatory paper shortage, someone sent in the old joke about how to use one sheet*. He read it out, couldn't see it was a joke and was disgusted, live, on air. Made it even funnier.

*You fold the sheet in half and then fold it in half the other way. Tear out the corner, such that there's a hole in the middle of the sheet, keeping the torn out piece. Unfold the paper, stick a finger through the hole and use it in the normal way. Use the piece you tore out to clean under your finger nail.
 Consumer Law. - Lygonos
>> You fold the sheet in half and then fold it in half the other way. Tear out the corner, such that there's a hole in the middle of the sheet, keeping the torn out piece. Unfold the paper, stick a finger through the hole and use it in the normal way. Use the piece you tore out to clean under your finger nail.

I remember our (jocular) French teacher telling us that "life hack" and demonstrating the technique with an Edinburgh bus ticket (about the size of a large postage stamp) in the 1980s.
 Consumer Law. - Zero
seem to remember a thing about Arabs eating with only one hand because they never had toilet paper. I can never remember which one it is, so never shake hands with a sheik.
 Consumer Law. - helicopter
For future information Z, Arab right hand is for eating, left hand is used for ablutions.
 Consumer Law. - No FM2R
It's a Muslim/Islam thing rather than Arab. Whilst most Arabs are Muslim, most Muslims are not Arab.

islamqa.info/en/answers/82120/the-reason-why-the-right-hand-is-preferred-over-the-left
 Consumer Law. - Zero
so not just one but two have destroyed the gag.
 Consumer Law. - No FM2R
There was a gag?
 Consumer Law. - Zero
well a quip then
 Consumer Law. - henry k
For simplicity I always understood it as helicopter stated.

A little more info.

arabiconline.eu/eating-practices-in-arab-countries/
"There are important courtesies involved with eating with your hands. Firstly, you should only eat with your right hand. It is fine to break bread with both hands, but you should exclusively use your right hand to bring food and drink to your mouth. Secondly, it is considered polite to use only the thumb, index finger and middle finger to pick up food."
 Consumer Law. - Fullchat
Another tip would also be to leave broken bread alone. :S
 Consumer Law. - Biggles
Yet another tip: if someone offers their left hand to shake hands, you know what you are being compared to.
 Consumer Law. - zippy
>> Yet another tip: if someone offers their left hand to shake hands, you know what
>> you are being compared to.
>>

Just an observation. Left handed people are more likely to offer a left hand accidently.

These are all silly myths along with someone scratching their nose must be lying etc.
 Consumer Law. - bathtub tom
>>These are all silly myths along with someone scratching their nose must be lying etc.

I do that to make folk think I'm bluffing when playing cards.
 Consumer Law. - Bromptonaut
>> Bobby, are you anywhere within the 3CR area, if so I suggest you listen in
>> after 11:00AM, wekday mornings (if not, it's on t'interweb).

AIUI 3CR is 3 counties radio (Bucks, Berks and Beds). Bobby is in Scotland.
 Consumer Law. - Zero
>> AIUI 3CR is 3 counties radio (Bucks, Berks and Beds). Bobby is in Scotland.

Available in Scotland on twinternet
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 11 Jun 21 at 03:15
 Consumer Law. - Falkirk Bairn
uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-013-0564?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true

Up to 6 years (5 Scotland) for goods which are reasonably expected to last for years but fail early.
 Consumer Law. - zippy
If the phone was purchased with a deposit, say £99 up front and £x per month, and that deposit was paid by credit card, then no mater the size of the deposit, if the contract is >£100 and <£30,000 then the credit card company is jointly liable and you could do a section 75 claim on them.
 Consumer Law. - Bobby
Phone is on a 24 month contract with EE. I paid I think £200 upfront on debit card.
Yes I’m in Scotland.

My thinking was if they supply 24 month contract then the phone should last that. I have an emailed report from Apple Shop confirming that they have diagnosed a hardware fault and is in no way user fault or misuse.

Thanks for links, will take a look. I just know it’s one of these things that even if I get a black and white concrete source that they are liable, I then need to find someone at EE to accept that!
 Consumer Law. - zippy
I know it's barn door, horses bolt, but try and use a credit card wherever possible.

Re getting EE to respond, send a letter. If they don't reply within 21 days, think about using the small claims court.
 Consumer Law. - smokie
Good call Zippy.

Small claims - tinyurl.com/mk9rcnmr

They do recommend trying a mediation service first. I remember getting a very handsome pay-out from Virgin some years back when I took them to the ombudsman. Apparently there is a quite high cost associated with them processing a claim.

www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-to-complain-to-the-ombudsman-about-a-mobile-phone-provider-a65By1y8xvY0

 Consumer Law. - henry k
When I had problems with EE I spoke directly to the CEOs office to get action.

No text messageswere getting to our area due to a fault at the local mast.
I told them that I had carried out tests so stop trying to say I am wrong and fix it.
After a few sharp words from me it was quickly sorted.
 Consumer Law. - Bobby
Raising it again with EE cust services just now. They say I will need to provide an independent report confirming the fault was inherent at time of purchase. Which I assume is designed to put me off as there is no one that could say that with any confidence!

I have report from Apple confirming they have seen the issue and there is no damage to display and no signs of miss use.
But I guess that’s not the same thing.

I used to relish these sorts of challenges against big companies! I must be getting too old now!
 Consumer Law. - Zero

>> I have report from Apple confirming they have seen the issue

Therefore they know its inherent - its a known issue!!!!!!

Thats your key
 Consumer Law. - Bobby
They won’t accept Apples report as they are not independent. Apparently a company confirming their own product is faulty isn’t reliable……
 Consumer Law. - Zero
>> They won’t accept Apples report as they are not independent. Apparently a company confirming their
>> own product is faulty isn’t reliable……

You tell them that the small claims court will certainly conclude the manufacturer is more reliable than the vendor.
 Consumer Law. - Bromptonaut
>> I told them that I had carried out tests so stop trying to say I
>> am wrong and fix it.
>> After a few sharp words from me it was quickly sorted.

The trick is to get past the first line people who have limited authority and are expected to dispose of calls quickly using template answers. Had to have a few sharp words with Morrisons about my problem using a Santander Debit Card at their Pay at Pump service to get somebody to investigate the issue rather than just saying my card was faulty.
 Consumer Law. - Manatee
>>.The trick is to get past the first line people who have limited authority and are expected to dispose of calls quickly using template answers.

This morning. Scottish Power.

On 9th April 2019 our house was rendered uninhabitable by a fire. That night, the gas transporter, Cadent, came out and "put a disc" in the meter, preventing any use or escape of gas. Subsequently I called SP and asked them to close my accounts (gas and electric) which they did, and I have paid final accounts.

I have subsequently had the gas supply and meter removed (we don't need gas for the new house). In order to get the meter removed I had to go through Scottish Power, still the registered gas supplier for the address.

Last week I got a bill for £234 being essentially 2 years of standing charges. I rang this morning to remind them of the history. After over an hour of waiting, explaining, holding and being cut off once, they said the reason is that the "national database" still shows I have a meter, and told me I will have to telephone "the national database" to get them to update it.

My argument that I had arranged the meter removal with SP and it should be they who sorted the records out fell on deaf lugs.

This not a one off. It's pretty much what I have been though before with SP, also with Thames Water. Nobody has anything resembling a customer service function. I allow 2 hours for interactions like this and, as this morning, it isn't always enough.

They really need to try and either resolve the call, or say why they aren't going to. The nonsense of having front line CSRs with no ability to resolve calls doesn't seem to have occurred to these people - an approach that seems guaranteed to create more cost than if they sorted it out.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 11 Jun 21 at 15:26
 Consumer Law. - Zero

>> going to. The nonsense of having front line CSRs with no ability to resolve calls
>> doesn't seem to have occurred to these people - an approach that seems guaranteed to
>> create more cost than if they sorted it out.

Mostly because the function is contracted out. The agents have a target to close calls, and "someone else's problem" (not in those words but that is the crux) is a valid resolution code on the call screen. The service cost is minimal.

You also assume that someone further up the chain in SP knows what they are doing. A dangerous assumption.
 Consumer Law. - smokie
Yeah, my recent experience with Virgin was that when I escalated the call I'm not sure the "2nd level" had as many brain cells as the initial responder. It does feel like it's becoming more difficult doing business with tis type of company these days.

I guess it's partly our own fault for expecting Rolls Royce service levels at Mini prices.
 Consumer Law. - Robin O'Reliant
>> .
>>
>> I guess it's partly our own fault for expecting Rolls Royce service levels at Mini
>> prices.
>>

I'd hardly call getting the basics right as Rolls Royce service. It should be the default.
 Consumer Law. - Zero
Expecting an electronic device to last two years and be replaced or repaired easily is Ford levels of service - at Ford prices
 Consumer Law. - No FM2R
>>I just know it's one of these things that even if I get a black and white concrete source that they are liable, I then need to find someone at EE to accept that!

The last thing EE will want is you winning a visible case in the Small Claims Court which might get reported upon and then spread.

So, as you say, you need to get it in front of the right person.

I should think the fastest way is to actually take out a case and let it work through their systems, which it will probably do at a startlingly fast pace..
 Consumer Law. - Manatee

>> AIUI 3CR is 3 counties radio (Bucks, Berks and Beds). Bobby is in Scotland.

Herts, Beds & Bucks actually, but your point stands:) Assuming it is Herts, not Heart (of Midlothian).
 Consumer Law. - tyrednemotional
>>...but your point stands:) Assuming it is Herts, not Heart (of Midlothian).
>>

....and Bobby isn't a Berk..... ;-)
 Consumer Law. - Fursty Ferret
You need to read the contract with EE carefully. It used to be that the phone was provided as a gift in addition to the service, so that you couldn't hold the operator responsible in exactly this kind of situation.

The caveat to this though is that if you find a loophole that allows you to leave the contract early (in-contract price increases above RPI, for example) then you can leave early and keep the phone (I've done this two or three times in the past).

So things have changed back and the operators make it clear that your bill comprises of a component for the phone and a component for the service. I'd argue, then, that they're responsible for providing you with a working device.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Mon 14 Jun 21 at 13:37
 Consumer Law. - zippy
I understood that if gifts were included in a consumer contract they were covered by the relevant consumer protection acts as well.
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 14 Jun 21 at 14:07
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