Motoring Discussion > Problems at Ford	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: sooty123	Replies: 93

Thu 21 Nov 24 13:01   Problems at Ford - sooty123

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20626dy9d6o 800 job losses in the UK. Their model range seems to be pretty poor and their EVs are struggling. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 13:08   Problems at Ford - Zero

Any company that dumps the UK's best seller (Fiesta) and calls a run of the mill electric small SUV "The Capri". deserves all they get. The company that turned out the best range of cars during the 70's and early 80's has fallen in the dunny. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 13:30   Problems at Ford - zippy

>> Any company that dumps the UK's best seller (Fiesta)... Madness. It was the small car learner drivers aspired to. I had a MK1 Ghia, a MK2 (horrible). A couple of MK3s - competent. Friends wife got a new one in 2018 and loves it and won't part with it. If there was another one she would upgrade but doesn't want to stretch to a Puma at almost £26k. (For a while some of the body panel fits on the rear were awful, but seemed to get better again with the last model.) Last edited by: zippy on Thu 21 Nov 24 at 13:33 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 14:13   Problems at Ford - CGNorwich

Madness Perhaps not from an economic viewpoint. Car makers have historically lost money on manufacturing small cheap cars. One of the reasons they are in such a parlours position today. They need to drive up the average cost of vehicles. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 14:25   Problems at Ford - Zero

>> Madness >> >> Perhaps not from an economic viewpoint. Car makers have historically lost not made so much money on manufacturing small >> cheap cars They were used as marketing "step in and step up the range" later to where cars with longer options lists and larger profit margins lay. Today cars have a standard option list that suits most people, and are not inclined to spec up their cars. Mostly tho, its aspiration and marketing the big companies have lost, and area they used to excel at. And style, Ford no longer know the meaning of the word, everything they make is pig ugly Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 14:38   Problems at Ford - Robin O'Reliant

I was looking at a newish Fiesta the other day and noticed how they've grown in size, they make the old Mk1 and two Cortinas look small. The Ka is now the Fiesta of the Ford range. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 14:57   Problems at Ford - Zero

>> I was looking at a newish Fiesta the other day and noticed how they've grown >> in size, they make the old Mk1 and two Cortinas look small. The Ka is >> now the Fiesta of the Ford range. Not been made since 2021 The current Ford range. www.ford.co.uk/cars Little wonder sales are falling. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 15:30   Problems at Ford - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> >> Not been made since 2021 >> >> The current Ford range. www.ford.co.uk/cars >> >> Little wonder sales are falling. >> They all look virtually identical. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 14:47   Problems at Ford - zippy

>> Madness >> >> Perhaps not from an economic viewpoint. Car makers have historically lost money on manufacturing small >> cheap cars. One of the reasons they are in such a parlours position today. They >> need to drive up the average cost of vehicles. >> Or make them cheaper - they don't need to be so big - less metal, less plastic, less carpet etc. Smaller brakes required etc. A lot of the tech isn't needed either, who needs rain sensing wipers, auto main beam off, huge StarTrek like displays etc. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 15:05   Problems at Ford - zippy

Add to that, electric windows, central locking etc. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 15:09   Problems at Ford - tyrednemotional

....yeah, they should have stopped at the Model T....... ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 15:57   Problems at Ford - Terry

Recently replaced my car. Looked at the Ford range - not a single vehicle got anywhere close to the short list. Also currently in Spain using hire car - they gave me a Ford Puma. Not impressed. Sometimes you get hire cars which make you think positively (eg: wifes car needs changing) - this one is on the avoid list. Ford have simply failed and their decline may be terminal - they are well behind the EV curve and it is unclear how they could catch up. Bring back the Fiesta ain't going to work - it WAS an excellent small or first car but to compete in the brave new EV world needs an EV designed from the tyres up. Grafting batteries and electric motor into old tech will fail. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 16:06   Problems at Ford - zippy

>> Ford have simply failed and their decline may be terminal - they are well behind >> the EV curve and it is unclear how they could catch up. >> >> Bring back the Fiesta ain't going to work - it WAS an excellent small or >> first car but to compete in the brave new EV world needs an EV designed >> from the tyres up. Grafting batteries and electric motor into old tech will fail. >> Small electric cars can work and I agree, Ford are well behind the curve: Renault have just launched an all electric Renault 5 to good reviews. Hyundai have a new small car called the Inster which gets good reviews too, the later is electric only here but there is a petrol version in Korea. Other manufacturers have models that can take combustion, hybrid or all electric drive systems. Hyundai make the Kona, perhaps not the most exciting vehicle but apparently it has very good electric range. I guess, it was designed to take varying types of drive train. As you said, bolting on a system to a chassis not designed for it, will be problematic, but they have had years to design something and could have partnered with someone else (Mazda perhaps). Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 15:59   Problems at Ford - zippy

>> ....yeah, they should have stopped at the Model T....... ;-) >> I think some motoring journalist made a quip that cars in the late '90s or early '00s were optimal, price, specification and reliability wise. Something to do with no trailblazing new technology that wasn't tried and tested, huge levels of sales that kept costs low etc. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 21:18   Problems at Ford - Bobby

Daughter’s husband had a Fiesta and now a Puma. Daughter has a 3 door 67 Corsa and is looking to replace it as they now have a baby. All 3 cars have heated windscreen and to my daughter it is an absolute dealbreaker that any new car needs to have it. Only Ford seem to have it as standard. Yeah some other models if you search autotrader might have had one optioned by its previous owner. But very rare. And of course , Ford have ecoboom engines! Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 21:48   Problems at Ford - Zero

To be fair, the Ecoboost engine is not as bad as reported, given the millions that are in use and have been for a number of years, the outcry would be much worse if it was. Its a pokey little unit for its size and good MPG. Two issues, small capacity water jacket, couple that to a frail expansion pipe means a loss of water results iin almost instant overheating damage. The infamous wet belt, incorrect oil and irregular servicing leads to the belt shedding fibres, blocking the oil pickup and circulation or the belt failing. Generally speaking tho, there is nothing in the Ford line up that would tempt me to part with my money, and with Ford dropping from 1st in 2019 to 5th in 2024, and forecast lower than that in 2025, it seems everyone feels the same way. Last edited by: Zero on Thu 21 Nov 24 at 21:50 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 21 Nov 24 22:23   Problems at Ford - bathtub tom

I understand curent new models have a cam chain and the oil pump drive on the 3-cyl Dragon is geared. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 09:17   Problems at Ford - Kevin

>..to my daughter it is an absolute dealbreaker that any new car needs to have it. Heated screen is another thing I miss from the Jag. Went out at 6:30 last night and the car was covered in ice/frost. Jag would have cleared the screen in less than a minute but had to wait ages for the heater/demist to work on the BMW. In fact I'm regretting selling the Jag and if a last-of-the-line V8 in the right spec comes up for sale I'll be there. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 10:24   Problems at Ford - zippy

>>Heated windscreens. The patent must have expired by now and I am really surprised that we don't see more cars with them. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 10:56   Problems at Ford - carmalade

Ford 1.0 eco bust engines from around 2019 have chain drive camshafts , but still retain a wet belt for the oil pump . These later engines have the turbo located at the back of the engine, rather than the front. That’s how you can tell the difference. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 11:28   Problems at Ford - VxFan

>> The patent must have expired by now and I am really surprised that we don't see more cars with them. It has a long time ago. A patent lasts 5 years. If you want it to stay in force after that, you must renew it every year, up to a maximum of 20. On Wheeler Dealers the other day, Mike visited a factory that makes heated screens for pretty much any vehicle. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 12:12   Problems at Ford - Lygonos

Best deals I can see at the moment: www.new-car-discount.com/car/ford/explorer/4x4/all/all www.new-car-discount.com/car/hyundai/ioniq-5/hatchback/all/all Can't see any reason I'd pick the Ford. The Ioniq 5 is marginally bigger than the Explorer. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 13:35   Problems at Ford - CGNorwich

Don’t really need them on my EV. Just turn on the AC ten minutes before you get in the car and you get in a cosy warm car with heated seats and steering wheel and a frost clear screen. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 13:42   Problems at Ford - Lygonos

>>Don't really need them on my EV. Just turn on the AC ten minutes before you get in the car and you get in a cosy warm car with heated seats and steering wheel and a frost clear screen. Aye - couple of clicks on the phone and job's a good 'un. Usually have to clear the gaffer's car tho :-( Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 18:50   Problems at Ford - Zero

Looks like Jaguar have booked their place in the "how to kill your product" asylum with Ford www.independent.co.uk/life-style/jaguar-rebrand-new-logo-cars-anger-b2651702.html I know Elon Musk is no recommendation, but this has garnered universal ridicule in all market segments. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 22 Nov 24 at 18:52 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 19:14   Problems at Ford - CGNorwich

I think the idea is to kill the brand or at least the perception as to what a Jaguar was and start again with something new. The old image of Jaguar was not doing them any favours. Whether it works will be interesting to see . Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 19:42   Problems at Ford - zippy

>> I think the idea is to kill the brand or at least the perception as >> to what a Jaguar was and start again with something new. The old image of >> Jaguar was not doing them any favours. Whether it works will be interesting to see >> . >> It has certainly got a lot of internet attention. Probably more than the marketers could have imagined. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 19:53   Problems at Ford - Kevin

From what I've read production has ceased for all existing models with a few I-Pace vehicles being available for fleet and ccorporate buyers until mid 2025. The new EV-only vehicles will be introduced from 2026 onwards so in effect they've closed down the company and will be starting again as a completely new outfit. All the new models will apparently be high-end £100k+ with the first one being a 'GT' model. Obviously, they think that selling continental cruisers to blokes in tutus will be a hugely successful start for them. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 21:03   Problems at Ford - CGNorwich

One of Jaguar’s problems is that they’ve never quite managed to shake off the “old man’s car” image. Perhaps this will finally do it. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 21:06   Problems at Ford - Zero

I'll bet this old mans pension its a disaster, Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 21:11   Problems at Ford - Zero

www.inc.com/kit-eaton/why-jaguars-rebranding-is-a-great-leadership-example-of-what-not-to-do/91021803 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 21:39   Problems at Ford - Kevin

>One of Jaguar’s problems is that they’ve never quite managed to shake off the “old man’s car” image. If they wanted to create a new image why not do it the established way by forming a new company alongside the parent company? Chevy-Pontiac, Toyota-Lexus, Nissan-Infiniti. Why trash one of their most valuable assets, the Jaguar brand. Last edited by: Kevin on Fri 22 Nov 24 at 21:40 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 21:47   Problems at Ford - tyrednemotional

>> >> If they wanted to create a new image why not do it the established way >> by forming a new company alongside the parent company? Chevy-Pontiac, Toyota-Lexus, Nissan-Infiniti. >> ...Cheetah... ? Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 22:44   Problems at Ford - CGNorwich

Why trash one of their most valuable assets, the Jaguar brand.” I guess they believe the brand as is is a liability rather than an asset. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 22 Nov 24 22:53   Problems at Ford - Zero

>> Why trash one of their most valuable assets, the Jaguar brand.” >> >> I guess they believe the brand as is is a liability rather than an asset. In that case, you don't use the same name, you have a new name Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 03:45   Problems at Ford - CGNorwich

Well you might think so but trying to get in the head of the marketing types I think perhaps they are happy with certain aspects of the brand, it is well known outside UK and noted for technical excellence for example What they don’t like is the ageing white male, fusty image that goes with it at the moment. They want to keep the first and ditch the latter. Now this might be a marketing disaster or an absolutely brilliant move but you can bet an awful lot of time and money has gone into this change These decisions are not just random. I have no idea how it will pan out but it will be interesting to watch Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 23 Nov 24 07:43   Problems at Ford - sooty123

I guess jaguar had to do something i believe they've lost money for years. The white cliffs of dover, golf club, pensioner etc look hasn't worked for some time. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 23 Nov 24 12:03   Problems at Ford - Zero

>> I guess jaguar had to do something i believe they've lost money for years. The >> white cliffs of dover, golf club, pensioner etc look hasn't worked for some time. That image and market died out int he 70's. The fact is they haven't actually produced a car that anyone wants for some years. Changing the name is not going to change the fact that JLR product quality and longevity has a terrible reputation. There would be (nearly was) a Jaguar XF sportbrake on my drive if I had had any faith in its build. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 12:46   Problems at Ford - Biggles

Since people today only want to buy SUVs, with the bigger the better, selling estate cars is unlikely to be a profitable activity. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 13:03   Problems at Ford - zippy

>> Since people today only want to buy SUVs, with the bigger the better, selling estate >> cars is unlikely to be a profitable activity. >> Go in to a showroom and the majority of cars are SUVs. Look at the close I live in and I have the only SUV. Last edited by: zippy on Sat 23 Nov 24 at 13:03 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 10:38   Problems at Ford - zippy

>>Now this might be a marketing disaster or an absolutely brilliant move but you can bet an awful >>lot of time and money has gone into this change These decisions are not just random. I have no >>idea how it will pan out but it will be interesting to watch I agree with CGN and Sooty on this. The advert doesn't "offend" me like it seems to have done for many commentators elsewhere. I thought, that's colourful and the genders of the of the models and what they were wearing seemed irrelevant to me. At the end of the day, if the cars appeal to a buyer, they will buy it. AIUI, they are going all electric. Leasing companies may be middlemen, but their large corporate customers - the large multinational corporations have lots of "green" targets to meet. Switching their company cars to all electric may help. Last edited by: zippy on Sat 23 Nov 24 at 10:40 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 10:57   Problems at Ford - zippy

Just seen this... www.goodwood.com/grr/road/news/should-jaguar-have-erased-its-history-with-its-rebrand--thank-frankel-its-friday/ Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 14:48   Problems at Ford - sooty123

>> AIUI, they are going all electric. Leasing companies may be middlemen, but their large corporate >> customers - the large multinational corporations have lots of "green" targets to meet. Switching their >> company cars to all electric may help. >> They have stopped production for a year or so, new car is out for publicity in 2 weeks. That should give them some breathing space to build a new image and throw off their stuffy old fashioned image and appeal to a wifer audience. Lots of jobs in the uk are depend on Jaguar, hope they do it. Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 23 Nov 24 at 21:15 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 15:37   Problems at Ford - Terry

What would be truly useful is some input from a 20 or 30 something. These are the folk upon which the future of Ford or Jaguar rely. I am in my 8th decade (just) I suspect many forum members are either not far behind of slightly ahead of me. Our attitudes towards cars and brands seems dominated by what was several decades ago. The Jaaag was premium golf club transport in the 1960-80s. Mondeo man retired a decade ago. Our opinions are not important - those of Millennials and Gen X are. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 17:25   Problems at Ford - CGNorwich

Our opinions are not important - those of Millennials and Gen X are. Exactly and they havent been buying Jaguarsl. One of the big changes is that young people especailly those living in London do noto have the same view of cars as did thier parents. Regarded as rather uncool and basically an unavoidable necessity rather than something to be desired. Surprising number of young people dont even have a licence Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 17:33   Problems at Ford - Zero

>>Regarded as rather uncool and basically an unavoidable necessity rather than something >> to be desired. Surprising number of young people dont even have a licence Then why target them? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 18:25   Problems at Ford - CGNorwich

Don’t think they are. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 18:31   Problems at Ford - Zero

so there is the mystery, who IS the target market? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 21:16   Problems at Ford - sooty123

I guess people who are younger need a car, can afford a jag but aren't buying them at the moment. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 23 Nov 24 23:36   Problems at Ford - zippy

>> I guess people who are younger need a car, can afford a jag but aren't >> buying them at the moment. >> I am not sure about £100k cars and young buyers, but company car drivers are buying Teslas. If Jaguar can make a £40-50k Tesla beater, they could rake it in. Last edited by: zippy on Sat 23 Nov 24 at 23:37 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 00:32   Problems at Ford - Lygonos

If Polestar are struggling to shift £50k EVs with enormous discounts, I'm not holding my breath for £100k+ Jags www.new-car-discount.com/car/polestar/2-fastback/hatchback/electric/automatic/310kw-82kwh-long-range-dual-motor-5dr-4wd-auto/22/ Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 24 Nov 24 at 00:34 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 02:22   Problems at Ford - zippy

>>If Polestar... I hope someone can give Tesla some competition, otherwise cars will be very boring. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 10:46   Problems at Ford - Zero

>> >>If Polestar... >> >> I hope someone can give Tesla some competition, otherwise cars will be very boring. Afraid the exciting pony escaped the stable some time ago and is disappearing over the hills Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 12:40   Problems at Ford - zippy

>> Afraid the exciting pony escaped the stable some time ago and is disappearing over the >> hills >> images.app.goo.gl/H5vvZx1qHg9uzhjC9 This one from Hyundai is a looker! Probably going to cost a fortune. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 12:56   Problems at Ford - Manatee

Tesla? About as exciting as the margarine tubs they look like. Milk floats were a perfect application for EVs. A known range requirement, back at base for charging every night and ready to go the next day. If that is your usage pattern they are ideal. I've come across a few people who put their faith in public chargers and are very disillusioned. The next phase of take up will be much tougher. Terry made the valid point that we are not a representative opinion panel. But I think we are qualified to say their new positioning is unlikely to attract their traditional customers. Most EV take up so far in UK has been employee related either company cars or salary sacrifice schemes. We have yet to see while hearted commitment from people writing cheques on their own accounts. Young adults will still presumably need personal transport but they don't seem to be interested in cars in the way that our generation was. They defer learning to drive if they don't need to, and when they do they increasingly go auto-only. They are perhaps more likely to see cars as appliances. Low cost producers will domimate. Jaguar is trying to establish a niche, by necessity, unless it moves production away from Europe. Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 24 Nov 24 at 12:56 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 13:57   Problems at Ford - Zero

Any new jaguar, is by financial and technical necessity, going to be based on a existing or new group (thats Tata motor group*) platform/drive train, which means its never going to be dynamically exciting. So its going to need a wow factor, looks or brand image *probably not Range Rover platform, which with its niche off road requirements, needs to be different. Things have not gone well so far, with the Jaguar director now defending the branding direction by throwing insults at the critics. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 14:31   Problems at Ford - zippy

Coffee with a mate this morning and his wife commented... If only they were ready to bring out a cool electric vehicle now. All those people who refuse to buy Tesla because of Elon, could be biting at the bit to buy Jaguar. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 18:08   Problems at Ford - Kevin

Jaguar binned an electric XJ a couple of years ago that was a gnats away from release. I think it was built on a modified X351 platform. www.youtube.com/watch?v=loMIYkHgy18 They have said that the upcoming models will be built on a brand new EV-specific platform. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 10:12   Problems at Ford - sooty123

media.smmt.co.uk/q3-2024-used-car-sales/ Looks like more people are holding onto their cars and buying ev but second hand. I see a few EVs struggling to attract much attention second hand residuals are pretty poor. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 10:58   Problems at Ford - Terry

The Jaguar brand seems to be held in high esteem by those who perceived them (justifiably) as very desirable in the 1950-80s. They are now mostly in their 60-80s, no longer Jag drivers, looking for something economical and cheaper to run. Let's assume the new Jag is a technological triumph - albeit affordable only by a few. This is a market where excellence in performance and finish should be a given - folk are buying a brand or lifestyle accessory. Do those who are successful, probably age 30-60, hanker after a Jag, or is their premium brand of choice more likely to be BMW, Lexus, Tesla, Mercedes, Range Rover etc - as has been the case for the last decade. or more. I'm not sure Jaguar have a brand of any real value any more. Its traditional supporters are aging. Potential buyers will need to forgo their affection for their current brand. An uphill struggle - I would not be buying shares in Jaguar. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 18:51   Problems at Ford - CGNorwich

“- I would not be buying shares in Jaguar.” Seem to remember about five years or so ago on here we were all saying that Tesla had no future and were certain to go bust once the established auto makers starting churning out EVs. I think the consensus was also that Chinese cars also had no future. A punt on Jaguar might be worthwhile:-) Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 20:03   Problems at Ford - Kevin

>A punt on Jaguar might be worthwhile:-) Well I won't be unless they fire the whole C-suite and Marketing Dept. I still haven't worked out why or who decided that they could or should try to change the brand "image" when any likely product is still vapourware or a mockup. When the ad first appeared I really hoped that they'd been clever and it would be quickly followed by a "Ha! Fooled you! This is what we've REALLY got coming!" I didn't think anyone could be so thick to jump on the woke bandwagon 5 years behind the curve and think it would somehow make them hip. But, of course, I'm biased. I'm a Jaguar fan. I've owned XJs for years and my X350 was without doubt the best all-round car I've owned. Comfortable, reliable, quiet, quick and not as expensive to run as some would have you believe. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 24 Nov 24 22:12   Problems at Ford - tyrednemotional

>>......woke bandwagon.... ...is that going to be the new launch model name? (I'm not sure what one is otherwise) ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 25 Nov 24 09:38   Problems at Ford - Zero

Oh dear, it gets worse youtu.be/CHqfoHv8O0M?t=41 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 25 Nov 24 11:39   Problems at Ford - Kevin

>...is that going to be the new launch model name? Job in Birmingham took longer than expected, now stuck in roadworks on A38 northbound. Will be with you after picking up more lace in Nottingham. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 28 Nov 24 06:21   Problems across the industry - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/latest-sign-of-struggling-industry-as-car-production-falls-for-eighth-month-in-a-row-smmt-13261842 With this and cuts across Europe it seems the industry is in a bit of bother. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 28 Nov 24 09:09   Problems across the industry - Zero

The car industry has been notoriously economically cyclic throughout its life. Add a major technology change without a supporting infrastructure, dependent on fickle government incentives, a resistance to change by significant percentage of the market, this was inevitable. We still have the Trump inspired trade wars to come and muddy the waters. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 28 Nov 24 09:30   Problems across the industry - Terry

All this is true - but the major elephant in the room is China. In the last couple of years they have been supplying an increasing share of the UK (and possibly) European markets with either Chinese branded or Chinese made European badged cars. They sell because their costs are much lower - for reasons we largely understand. Very simply - the European car manufacturers have an excess of capacity. Three options - close factories, increase efficiency/reduce costs, or tariffs. Or a mix of all three. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 28 Nov 24 11:30   Problems across the industry - zippy

>>European car manufacturers have an excess of capacity. And yet we are not seeing deep discounting that would at least sell cars. I think one of the main problems is pricing, cars seem to be expensive. Both anecdotally and from visits to Ford at Dagenham and to various subcontractors over the years, Ford used to try and make cars to sell an their family car at the average salary of a worker. The UK average is £30k. You can get superminis in that price range but at the moment, very few family sized electric cars fall in to that range. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 28 Nov 24 17:31   Problems across the industry - Terry

Ford used to try and make cars to sell an their family car at >> the average salary of a worker. >> >> The UK average is £30k. You can get superminis in that price range but at >> the moment, very few family sized electric cars fall in to that range. Just did an Autotrader search. Sitting just below £30k, albeit discounted, are the following entirely decent EVs: Peugeot E 308 Citroen e Berlingo Renault Megane E Tech MG4 Kia Niro Mazda MX30 Mini Cooper Jeep Avenger A similar analysis for petrol power: VW T-Roc Vauxhall Mokka Vauxhall Astra Peugeot 508 Vauxhall Crossland VW Taigo Citroen C5 Mazda CX30 Kia Sportage VW T-Cross There is some difference - but not as much as one might expect - at a detailed spec level EVs may generally be better endowed simply because they would have been launched more recently. Superficially looking only at purchase costs also ignores the benefit for those who can charge largely at home off road (50-60% of properties) that EV will have lower running costs. Overall the difference seem to be becoming smaller - just a couple of years ago the price premium for EV may have been £10-15k. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 28 Nov 24 19:34   Problems across the industry - zippy

I get your point Terry, but someone looking for a T-Cross / T-Roc is not likely to consider an electric Berlingo. The T-Cross as it's better appointed and more stylish. How much is the electric equivalent of the T-Cross / T-Roc? Last edited by: zippy on Thu 28 Nov 24 at 19:38 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 28 Nov 24 16:53   Problems across the industry - Manatee

The industry especially in UK is quietly in crisis at the moment from what I glean here and there. At some point it must break. The statistics are not to be relied on. Because they are supposed to hit 22% EVs this year or pay a £15,000 per unit fine, they have been pre-registering cars anyway. EV's registered in 2023 are still coming on to the market with delivery miles, and many more have been or will be registered this year and remain unsold at the year end. Because they are registered they will of course appear in the new car sales stats. Dealers will not take used EVs in, which is hurting both values and new sales. The sales stats for EVs are further misleading because a dealer will pre-register a new car, perhaps obtaining a fleet discount if it's invoiced to a related hire business, and then sell it as a pre-reg, thereby recording both a new sale and a used one for the same car. Some previously evangelical EV buyers have now realised that there are financial risks in owning an expensive EV and that range possibly matters to them more than they thought - especially in winter. The daughter of a friend, a community midwife, this week spent an hour freezing in a traffic gridlock in Aylesbury for fear of flattening the battery of she used the heater. Public fast chargers can be 70p-80p per unit AIUI which means the cost per mile is similar to or more than the cost of dino juice. If you never do long journeys, your car returns home every night, and you can charge it there then then an EV is almost certainly the right car for you. But it will probably be a very heavily discounted new or pre-registered one, unless you want to gamble on the condition of a battery, the cost of which will quite possibly write the car off if it needs replacing. The idea that there will be no resistance to a minimum of 80% pure EV supply from 2030 is for the birds. Of course they could still mandate it. but people simply don't want them. And if manufacturers are coerced with financial penalties, there will be immense damage to car retail and such manufacturing as still exists here. We could conceivably replace one of our cars with EV. But I'm in no hurry. The Popemobile does 5,000 miles a year and fuel cost is not a big issue for us. I suspect when it fails, we will simply reduce to one car plus the MX-5. I will probably look out for a suitable hybrid to replace the Outlander. The Mazda I will keep for as long as I can drive it. Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 28 Nov 24 at 16:55 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 28 Nov 24 18:00   Problems across the industry - Terry

Leaving aside the issues which have been done to death (range, batteries, recharging facilities, etc) for which entrenched views (right or wrong) prevail, together with out of context isolated positive or negative anecdotes, there seem to be two options. The government sticks with its current timetable: - keeps the green lobby happy - no politically sensitive reversal of policy - EV sales remain low until vehicles need to be changed - ICE sales low as manufacturers have potential fines to pay - total UK car sales remain low, dealers go bust, manufacturing capacity reduced - medium term - cars need replacement, EV infrastructure improving, volumes increase - loss of manufacturing capacity means increased imports If the government slip the timetable and/or reduce the fines to keep manufacturers happy: - green lobby upset, yet another policy dumped by the new Labour government - EV sales remain low - probably lower than option above - ICE sales increased - due to lower EV sales and maybe lower fines - total UK car sales higher than option above, less impact on dealers and manufacturers - medium term - UK will still have to confront net zero strategy - medium term - UK based manufacturing will need to be competitive with China - failure to adapt and ultimately compete means loss of manufacturing and increased imports Perhaps the only differentiator is the level of confidence that given an extra 2/3/4/5 years, UK car manufacturing can improve productivity and products sufficiently to retain a long term UK car manufacturing capability. I am less than confident - delaying what inevitably needs to happens rarely improves outcomes. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 30 Nov 24 19:07   Hitler reacts to Jaguar rebrand - Zero

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKt3R2W8qzY Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 2 Dec 24 22:34   Problems at Ford - Kevin

Phew! That's a relief. After that advert I was worried that Jaguar had gone completely bonkers. www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jaguar-concept-leaked-full-ahead-reveal-tonight Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 2 Dec 24 23:25   Problems at Ford - zippy

At least it's not grey or black. Personally, I quite like it - it's striking. It's so bold, I hope the real metal bears some resemblance to the images. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 09:38   Problems at Ford - Zero

WOW, A pink cybertruck that's been squashed by a concrete block, yeah it's striking. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 10:53   Problems at Ford - Bobby

They have played a blinder though. Lots of publicity for what is in effect a concept car. But by God, it’s ugly. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 11:16   Problems at Ford - zippy

From the Telegraph: ‘Simply breathtaking’: The pink Jaguar EV is a design triumph www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/features/new-electric-jaguar-design-triumph/ Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 11:37   Problems at Ford - Kevin

"Copy Nothing" It's a Lincoln chop top with the smack-up-the-Rs rear end of the last XJ. uk.pinterest.com/pin/338895940695916723/ Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 11:51   Problems at Ford - Zero

>> "Copy Nothing" They have tried this before, with poor reception. The XJS with its universally derided "flying buttresses" However in my opinion it was gorgeous, aggressive purposeful and has aged remarkably well as a design, and as a soft top crotch stirringly sexy. The new concept? the side profile view is fantastic, the front and rear? nothing new there its shamelessly ripped off from any and all of Gerry Andersons Thunderbirds/Captain Scarlet/UFO so correspondingly appalling in proportion, This will age badly. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 11:52   Problems at Ford - Zero

And if they persist with this "no rear window"idea, the whole thing is dead in the water. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 11:53   Problems at Ford - Crankcase

I do quite a lot of image production using AI. It looks like someone typed "concept car" and left it at that. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 21:00   Problems at Ford - tyrednemotional

Ford have a new plan..., www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/all-new-mk1-ford-escort-be-revealed-12-december ...well, would you....? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 21:23   Problems at Ford - legacylad

>> Ford have a new plan..., >> >> www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/all-new-mk1-ford-escort-be-revealed-12-december >> >> ...well, would you ? >> I’d prefer a mk2 RS1800 thank you very much. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 22:06   Problems at Ford - Fullchat

MST Cars in deepest Wales are building Mk1 and 2s to any spec you desire. I believe they are also building 6R4s. Sweet!! I wonder if Ford still have the panel presses? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 3 Dec 24 22:37   Problems at Ford - Zero

>> I’d prefer a mk2 RS1800 thank you very much. Ooo no, bit Bodie and Doyle Mk1 is brilliant. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 4 Dec 24 18:32   Problems at Ford - tyrednemotional

>> >> Mk1 is brilliant. >> My second car was a '73 Escort Mk1 1300 Sport (in bright red). The years may just have equipped me with rose-tinted glasses (even Jaguars are beginning to look a bit pink), but it was a car I really liked and enjoyed. The shape still looks "pretty" to me, and I wouldn't mind one now as a "hobby car" A girlfriend later had a Mk2, and I didn't feel anywhere near the same about that (the car, that is.....) Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 4 Dec 24 09:05   Problems at Ford - Bromptonaut

>> Ford have a new plan..., >> >> www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/all-new-mk1-ford-escort-be-revealed-12-december Chap on the road down into the village who has a menagerie of older vehicles had a bright green Mk1 Mexico on his drive at the weekend. Not sure if it's an addition to his collection or just somebody visiting. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 4 Dec 24 10:05   Problems at Ford - Manatee

I'd love to receive one, but how you could possibly make a blueprinted copy of a 1960's Escort compliant with current regulations for new cars I can't imagine? Maybe they are just for off-road use. Or...maybe they have used original vehicle identities. It wouldn't be the first time a restoration has not included much more than a chassis plate from the original car. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 4 Dec 24 11:30   Problems at Ford - zippy

>> how you could possibly make a blueprinted copy of >> a 1960's Escort compliant with current regulations for new cars I can't imagine? Maybe they >> are just for off-road use. >> I thought there were exemptions for small car manufacturers - otherwise Caterham and Morgan would cease to exist. BTW I saw the factory where the Morgan 3-wheeler body was made (Coventry). Quite interesting - but as it was subcontracted out there was no sense of they were making something special. It was just another job. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 4 Dec 24 14:44   Problems at Ford - Manatee

Good point Zippo. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 4 Dec 24 15:50   Problems at Ford - zippy

Thanks Manatee - I get them rarely :-D Doesn't mean your not right either, it would probably be simpler to have a donor car. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 7 Dec 24 00:04   Problems at Ford - zippy

www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/electric-ford-fiesta-game-changing-affordable-ev-due-2026 Lets hope they release it with a sensible price! Reply to this message | Report message