>> >> It's pretty clear to me that you can't sustainably be in the currency bloc
>> and
>> >> out of the other two.
>>
>> Not that I'm saying it'd be a good idea for the UK, or as a
>> general principle. But there is at least one country to which this applies.
"Sustainably" is the important word I think!
>>
>> The rest of your post I pretty much agree with entirely.
>>
>> Where we differ, I imagine, is that I'd not be unhappy to see the UK
>> as part of a Federal Europe.
Neither would I, in principle. I have a French friend, a cool pragmatic engineer who was in their submarines, who likes to say "If it's French, it will work very well in theory".
I don't think there's even a theory at the moment. Maybe it just has to evolve, though that can be painful.
>>
>> I do not accept the argument (this bit isn't aimed at you, Manatee, just as
>> a contribution to the thread in general) that this would lead to some kind of
>> dissolution or loss of national identity and tradition. I'm pretty sure the Scots still see
>> themselves as Scots after 300 years of political union with three other nations. Croats are
>> pretty much convinced they're Croats, even though there's only ever been a political entity called
>> "Croatia" for about 20 years in the entire history of their people. They've only just
>> gained that, and are about to be "subsumed" by the EU. It will have no
>> effect on their concept of national identity, trust me.
I can see that. I have noticed that national identity doesn't follow from the the country that one has always lived in, either. There are still many "Germans" in Hungary, and I think I have said before that I have a Hungarian friend who was born in Ukraine where his family lived; it never occurred to him that he wasn't Hungarian. His grandfather has lived in three different countries without moving house IIRC.
I'm disappointed in our leadership, or lack of it, and the lack of progress to a fully explainable future working model for the EU which currently has all the necessary conditions to self-destruct.
You have the 'outies' saying "This is all about a federal state. We will be governed from Europe. It's bad, you must vote against it".
Until the innies can say "This is all about being part of a brilliant federal state. It's good, for all the following reasons...let's be really happy and get on with it" there's something not quite right, and out now might be lower risk.
I don't accept unquestioningly the apocalyptic visions of life outside the EU, and they are not a reason to jump in the deep end.
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