Ok, Im not entirely sure its a misfire although it could be.
In 4th/5th gear, there is some vibration through the steering and with the window down, you can here the exhaust note is rough, sounds like its misfiring abit.
As soon as you lift off the power, it smooths out completely and as you reapply the power, the vibration comes back as you increase the load progessively.
This doesnt happen in the lower gears in the same way although in 3rd gear and 1200-1600 rpm, it also misfires abit under load.
In the lower gears though, it pulls smoothly although that being said, it may just be that in higher gears its more pronounced as the little engine is working harder.
Its possible its EGR if it has one as there is evidence from service records that it has been cleaned several times over the last 5 years.
I also wondered about an engine mount or whether it could just be duff plugs/leads OR something ive not yet thought of, fuel delivery maybe?
Any clues? The bit that puzzled me was how smooth it was on engine braking, which made me think of fuel maybe. I have thrown some Wynns injection cleaner through as an experiment, not gone far yet though.
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Air leak from the air intake pipe - Some Vauxhalls had a known issue that they wore into a hole beneath and in the folds in the corrugated pipe.
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Stu my way of dealing with these things is to deal with the easy/cheap things you can do first.
So fit new plugs and leads, check the air filter (unless filthy not likely to be the cause) and consider changing fuel filter (again not likely to be at fault).
As PU mentions a small air leak can cause these issues so look round any hose that allows air into the mixture.
However a big big clue is the record of constant work on the EGR system.... you may have found the true reason this motor was sold!
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I think this has same engine as Vauxhall corsa/meriva models.So may be a good idea to inspect s/plugs and coil pack.No ht leads on these.hth
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So did I when he first mentioned it. What also makes me think it is the GM 1.2 X12XE engine Suzuki developed that with GM and they all had a habbit of EGR faults. Mine luckily had no EGR issues but did have problems with the MAF.
The only thing is I didn't think the X12XE engine came out until later 98 but that may just be the Corsa.
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Do you know for certain what engine is fitted to this car yet? If it is the GM unit then there are lots of guides on the internet about how to block the EGR off.
Also does the misfire really matter too much? As longs as it is not an indication of more serious issues it is a cheap car.
You need to take in the value of the time taken to research all these issues too. I learnt from my Corsa there is really no point on trying to make an old car new, just fix all the safety related stuff but don't worry about the rest.
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Its definatly a Suzuki unit, not GM. From what I can determine, its a generic unit used mainly in Japan.
While EGR seems quite possible, it may also be something simpler, so I want to put that aside to look at any other potential cause. When the EGR went on the Rover, the symptoms were vastly different, essentially a massive flatspot but the engine still sounded ok.
Ive also compared the engine to a Vauxhall 1.2 - doesnt look even a bit like it.
The plugs seem to be in the top of the engine, and to get them you have to remove the air filter housing and some other plastic box - I know this because I traced the leads from the dizzy.
Im not too worried, Im sure it will be something reasonably obvious in the end.
Last edited by: stunorthants29 on Sun 26 Dec 10 at 13:06
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If it has HT leads it certainly isn't the GM unit then. I think it was the Agila and Suzuki Wagon R II which used them.
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Well, I now know what the 'egr filter' looks like and I know where it is on my car. Luckily, its very accessible, so should be easy enough to check.
My mech said if I can find it, give it a firm tap, see if it helps.
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MAF sensor? If it's got one.
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I wish I knew what this car had, I dont know why they have to be so somplex.
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Ok, clever people, the box next to the air filter housing is called a 'resonator' by my handbook - any clues what that may be?
Its what sits over the plugs and the plugs cover plate. Ive never seen such a thing before sitting on the head.
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>>any clues what that may be?
It's simply an empty chamber in the inlet manifold. It cannot be the cause of the misfire unless it is BOTH downstream of any air flow measurement or throttle vavle AND has a hole or leak in it.
The resonantor is a device to reduce inlet noise, the combination of the volume of the chamber and the size of the pipe into it combine to tune the device to work at a given frequency - its more scientific name is a Helmholtz resonator.
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Thats great thx. Didnt think it was the culprit, id just never hear of such a thing and wondered what its use was.
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From your symptoms, I would begin by looking closely the HT ignition system. Plugs, leads*, cap* and rotor*, and coil.
* If the engine has them.
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Why don't you just call in a mobile tuner, instead of keep stabbing in the dark.
Last edited by: Dog on Tue 28 Dec 10 at 09:36
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I like to have an understanding in my own mind of the problem. Its in the garage tomorrow, so ill see what he comes up with.
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Have you even tried a diagnostics on it?
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What I do know is that Wynns stuff I put in it has made a difference. Its still misfiring abit, but its nowhere near as pronounced, so I think its likely anything the cleaner affects is a possibility. Ill be getting the plugs done anyway.
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Just got it back from the garage. The plugs were ORIGINAL as were the leads. They were rusty to boot. It now runs alot smoother and there was a sort of thrashing sound over the normal engine note which has also gone, I suspect due to fresh oil. It feels alot smoother and quieter.
The vibration at certain speeds is still there though, my indy thinks its an out of balance driveshaft, but he said unless it gets worse, he would leave it as is. He reckone it smooths out at about 65 ish.
He also said it has a full non-Suzuki exhaust system which is air tight, but he said it isnt the best quality and he would expect it to spring a leak in the next few years. Its noiser than the proper system and fluffs a bit but he said not to worry about it, its MOT worthy.
Feel happier now.
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The plugs were ORIGINAL as were the leads.
12 yr old spark plugs - I doubt it, maybe same make as originals but not 12 yr old plugs.
>> He also said it has a full non-Suzuki exhaust system which is air tight, but
>> he said it isnt the best quality and he would expect it to spring a
>> leak in the next few years.
Any replacement exhaust will fail in a few yrs unless it is Stainless Steel
>> Feel happier now.
>>
Thank goodness for that!
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>> The plugs were ORIGINAL as were the leads.
>>
>> 12 yr old spark plugs - I doubt it, maybe same make as originals but
>> not 12 yr old plugs.
I would say it IS possible.
IIRC the car has about 35k on it - I cant remember on Wagon R's but many cars now don't have a plug change till over 35k
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The change recommendation for the plugs in my Vectra is 8 yrs or 80,000 miles.
IIRC, the plug change recommendation for my Mk1 Astra was 3 yrs or 36,000 miles.
Edit:- according to Autodata the plug change recommendation on a 1998 1.2 WagonR is every 2 yrs or 24,000 miles.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 30 Dec 10 at 13:45
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Well I have gone through all the detailed records and there is no record of a plug change for the last 10 years. The coolant was described to me as murky water and ive no doubt the brake fluid needs doing although not that you would know to drive it ( it will be done in the summer ).
Its had fresh oil and a new air filter every year plus running repairs to bits and bobs, but its over ten years since it was last in the Suzuki network. Seems likely the plugs may have been changed at its second service which was by Suzuki and that was the last time they were done if at all.
My indy said its been many years since he saw plugs that old in a car. He said they were so worn he was suprised it ran at all and the leads were stiff and cracking, so I imagine broken down internally.
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I think you can forget about worrying about stuff like the EGR then!
Sadly it seems new HT leads and some plugs are all it needs, you should have bought a Lada Samara, then you would have had things to worry about :).
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Well, my indy cleaned out the EGR for good measure although he said with the car doing decently long runs now, its unlikely it will get choked up if it has in the past.
Once the summer comes and ive got to know the car better, ill make sure I tick all the other servicing boxes which Ive so far missed, but Im reserving judgement right now incase the thing blows up on the A14 :-)
Just gearbox oil, brake fluid, fuel filter and a precautionary aux belt change to go then everything that can be renewed will be, but Im going to wait until the MOT in June before having that lot done.
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>> Just gearbox oil, brake fluid, fuel filter and a precautionary aux belt change to go
>> then everything that can be renewed will be, but Im going to wait until the
>> MOT in June before having that lot done.
For the sake of £30 (or even less) I'd change the brake fluid now, given the servicing neglect the rest of the car appears to have had.
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i would agree
get man to check rear wheel bearings too as on the later model they only last 30,000 miles
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Money has run out until accountant gets paid end of Jan. Rest of car is fine, its had a pre-MOT.
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>> its had a pre-MOT.
Safe as houses then - NOT.
An MOT is not a guarantee of the cars safety, especially where brakes are concerned. The brake test is done on rollers and will only give an indication that they work at low speed and that they are balanced. In the real world however cars go a lot faster than the rollers will spin the wheels. If the brake fluid is past its sell by date and is hygroscopic (ie has absorbed moisture over time) then there is a risk that the braking efficiency at speed will be compromised.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 30 Dec 10 at 18:24
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I can assure you, the brakes are exceptionally powerful, one slip of the foot on the pedal and you near on get whiplash. Its recently had new disks and pads which may well have something to do with that. I will change it, but its feels good atm.
Pre-MOT not done at MOT station btw. Its a general term for an all over check, mainly because there was an advisory from the last MOT for corrosion on the sills, but having seen it on the ramp, neither of us could find anything other than very minor surface corrosion on the leading edge of the sills, nothing a rub down and paint wont sort.
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>>>I can assure you, the brakes are exceptionally powerful, one slip of the foot on the pedal and you near on get whiplash.
From that you don't understand the reason for changing the brake fluid do you?
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I do, but if the money has run out for the time being and the brakes work well, Im not going to panic just yet.
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I think what they're trying to tell you is the brakes will work perfectly up to the moment they fail.
At least, mine did!
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There's no stopping someone once their mind is made up, not even their brakes.
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>>Suzuki Wagon R+ - Chain driven engines - Iffy
Sound advice from Rattolo and others about not doing too much.
I even wonder about changing the brake fluid, provided the brakes feel OK.
We never used to years ago.
So it picks up a bit of moisture.
Big deal, you're hardly going to boil brake fluid chugging around Northants in any car, let alone a little Suzuki which weighs barely more than you do.
<<
Theres no consensus on it being an immediate issue. I appreciate the notion, but I actually have spent the budget, thats it.
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"Big deal, you're hardly going to boil brake fluid chugging around Northants in any car, let alone a little Suzuki which weighs barely more than you do."
I've done it on a 652cc 35BHP Visa Special trolling about the IOW with a dragging brake. It does rather focus your mind!
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dangerous words RichardW
earlier up the post stu says his brakes are really good
this says to me new brakes on front confirmed by stu
and most probably rear brakes have been cleaned and adjusted for that just-- so --feeling
-=--now bare with me rw
this is exactly the scenario that boils fluid and leaves you with no footbrake in exactly the situation you wouldnt envisage because the shoes are done up they can catch a little when youve been 5 miles and the heat goes through the drums and into the shoes and into the slave cylinder
i mentioned after an absence that the later suzi car is susceptible to low mileage wheel bearing failure and small cars in particular can be very prone to rear brake circuit failure due to heat build up
please dont think it only happens coming down a very large hill with your foot constantly on the brake,i had failure twice i can recall once in a triumph acclaim as i came back from the mot so the brakes will have had a dammed hard workout and once in a brand new sunny coupe both frightening experiences because you brake nothing happens and many yards have been covered in the meantime
oh just remembered i had brake failure last month on a transit,the brake pipe had rattled out of the master cylinder,now that was a real frightener as i was fully loaded when i pumped for england to stop the hulk.....
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>>i pumped for england to stop the hulk
You survived it Bb.
Hope you had a good holiday. Are you gonna tell us about it, or did it take you three weeks to drag that iffy Honda back from Luton?
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>>oh just remembered i had brake failure last month on a transit,the brake pipe had rattled >>out of the master cylinder,now that was a real frightener as i was fully loaded when i >>pumped for england to stop the hulk.....
"I pumped for England......................
Was that with your right foot or your backside? (or both?)
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 31 Dec 10 at 02:45
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Could the clutch cause a vibration at certain engine speeds? I ask because the more I drive the car, the more I notice that the clutch action is a bit 'soft' and it judders a bit sometimes. Also wondered whether the gearbox oil has any noticeable effect on the clutch?
The vibration has got better over time, but its still there between 2800-3100 rpm and below 1400 rpm. I tend to drive around it, but it still irritates as it doesnt seem anything obvious as nobody seems to have a clear idea of why it would only happen at certain engine revs and only when the engine is under load.
As a side note, I discovered that the exhaust is leaking from the joint between CAT and backbox, so that should quieten the car down a bit when its fixed, but I dont think its much of a factor re the vibration.
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>>there between 2800-3100 rpm and below 1400 rpm
2800 rpm's a harmonic of 1400 rpm. What happens around 5600 rpm?
One of my car's got a similar resonance on the exhaust that's recently started. I know the back box's falling apart internally.
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Yes mine has a reasonance at exactly 53mph, which is within the 2800-3100 rpm range.
It briefly sounds like a Moggy Minor, I thought it was quite quaint. You know, its a £700 car, I never thought to take it to 5600!
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Ive given in, the vibrations getting worse so on Monday Im booking it in at Suzuki, to hell with the cost.
Apparently these cars have a gauze fuel filter in the tank which can get clogged up and cause bad running, esp as its supposed to be renewed every 100k/10 years, bet thats not been done, so it may be that. Either way, I just want it to go now, its irritating me.
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I really think my luck with cars is finally rubbing off against you :). Hopefully it will be something cheap and simple though :).
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Well, ive got an overdraft of £4500, so I have some room to spend £500 odd then pay it back over 6 months. I wanna commit to the car because ive sorted everything else now. Fix this and its aces. Its gonna cost though, I just know it.
Last edited by: stunorthants29 on Sat 15 Jan 11 at 23:11
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Your statement
>> Money has run out
>>
doesn't agree with
>> Well, ive got an overdraft of £4500, so I have some room to spend £500
>>
.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you start off in HJ's place some months ago with a gift of £10k from your gran which was used by you to buy a reliable Jap car? How has all that translated so quickly in to you now having to spend your overdraft to fix a rusting old deathtrap of a van?
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>> >> Well, ive got an overdraft of £4500, so I have some room to spend
>> £500
>> >>
I've just seen in Zero's "bangernomics. Just bought a car" thread that your above £500 budget has already gone up to £1000 as you say "Im allowing £1k for the main dealer repair".
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I had a poor year for business so had to flog my Daihatsu to pay child maintainance. Thats how.
The Subaru was my wifes car, nout to do with my cars.
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>> The Subaru was my wifes car, nout to do with my cars.
>>
If you say so, but just did a search on HJ and found posts there by a "stunorthants26" which are all about a Subaru bought using money given by Stu's grandma; and bought by him, for him, insured by him and run by him. The evidence is all there but I suppose that must be someone else with a name similar to yours.
As it that was not you, and it is ancient history anyway, here's getting the thread back to repairing your current shed. ;-)
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>> to hell with the cost.
Now you're in a spending money frame of mind, you could also get the brake fluid changed too ;o)
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Haha, not at a main dealer I wont. I was going to have it done at the end of this month, but Co-op are getting the money instead, along with alot more besides, so maybe end of Feb, shall see. Car wouldnt start easily the other day so thats taking priority as I have alotta work booked right now.
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>> Haha, not at a main dealer I wont.
Main Vauxhall dealer charged me something like £25 or £30 last year inclusive.
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>> Main Vauxhall dealer charged me something like £25 or £30 last year inclusive.
>>
An apt reply which could well have been said
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=4586&m=100246&v=e
Last edited by: Suppose on Sun 16 Jan 11 at 18:32
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This dealer mines going to once charged me £220 for a service which amounted to oil/filter, air filter and plugs. Somehow I cant see a brake fluid change coming in at the price they usually charge to unhook the keys in the key cupboard.
Its on the to do list, but right now, if it gets to the stage that it wont run, brakes will be rather redundant. Also, should they tell me the car is way beyond economic repair which I guess is always a possibility, then ill feel a bit sick having wasted £30.
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>>if it gets to the stage that it wont run, brakes will be rather redundant.
But if it ever gets to over 50MPH you may appreciate 'em. ;>)
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Seems unlikely it will :-)
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Suzuki Wagon R+ - 98 1.2 Slight misfire? - R.P.
