| Non-motoring > Trump | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: CGNorwich | Replies: 460 |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 03:19
Trump - CGNorwich
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Reports in the press this morning that trump is to be offered a second Royal Visit to this country. I do hope this is not true. Sucking up to this odious creep just demeans this country and achieves nothing. Can no one stand up and call him out for what he is.? Have we really sunk this low? |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 08:31
Trump - James Loveless
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I have nothing but contempt for this appalling individual and for the naivety of the US electorate, but the fact remains that he and his bunch of unqualified, inexperienced officials will wield huge influence in the world. Sadly, therefore, we must do business with this criminal, holding our noses in the process.
Last edited by: James Loveless on Sat 28 Dec 24 at 08:33
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 12:09
Trump - maltrap
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I don’t know if he can,but I suspect he will try to get the presidency on a permanent basis, For either himself or one of his cronies or family,lord help us. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 24 18:56
Trump - R.P.
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we must do business with this criminal, holding our noses in the process. Like we've always done |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 08:43
Trump - Zero
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| Relax, so we have picked up a turd on our shoes, might as well try and polish it a bit. It will be cleaned off in 4 years. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 11:09
Trump - zippy
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Lets be honest, we've had worse here. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 12:06
Trump - Zero
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| really? we have voted in some doozies, but Worse than Trump? |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 12:14
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> really? we have voted in some doozies, but Worse than Trump? Boris and Truss are as near as we get but Bojo while undoubtedly a narcissist was less malevolent. Truss is an open question as she screwed up from the get go and our system meant getting her out was pretty quick. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 12:24
Trump - Zero
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| Truss was simply out of her depth, |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 12:38
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> Truss was simply out of her depth, Sure, but reading Anthony Seldon's book on her she was showing other characteristics too. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 25 08:25
Trump - CGNorwich
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The craziness continues. Trump now proposes to move all the Gazans and distribute them around the Middle East and turn the Gaza Strip into a luxury holiday destination. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 25 08:26
Trump - CGNorwich
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The craziness continues. Trump now proposes to move all the Gazans and distribute them around the Middle East and turn the Gaza Strip into a luxury holiday destination. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 25 08:31
Trump - tyrednemotional
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As I've said, he's getting the headlines whilst Musk is quietly dismantling everything in the background. Diversionary tactics? |
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New Wed 5 Feb 25 08:47
Trump - Zero
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>> The craziness continues. Trump now proposes to move all the Gazans and distribute them around >> the Middle East and turn the Gaza Strip into a luxury holiday destination. As I said he would further up (or down!) this post, you are fortunate to have his foreign policy realtor on this site. Anyone want their house buldozed and a Trump international golf resort built? let me know. Last edited by: Zero on Wed 5 Feb 25 at 08:48
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New Wed 5 Feb 25 10:23
Trump - zippy
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>> The craziness continues. Trump now proposes to move all the Gazans and distribute them around >> the Middle East and turn the Gaza Strip into a luxury holiday destination. >> Just goes to prove the man is a despotic tyrant. Forcibly removing a population is a crime against humanity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer |
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New Wed 5 Feb 25 10:58
Trump - tyrednemotional
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| Grifter's gotta grift.... |
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New Wed 5 Feb 25 15:43
Trump - Terry
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>> >> The craziness continues. Trump now proposes to move all the Gazans and distribute them >> around >> >> the Middle East and turn the Gaza Strip into a luxury holiday destination. >> >> >> >> Just goes to prove the man is a despotic tyrant. >> >> Forcibly removing a population is a crime against humanity: >> >> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer Trumps suggestion has all the hallmarks of his other pronouncements - simplistic, probably incapable of implementation, lots of noisy resistance - but: - a long term goal of middle east peace should dominate debates - the rest of the world has thus far contributed zero to a solution - the cost of rebuilding Gaza will be massive - with no other funds on the table Gaza could become the "Singapore" of the Mediterranean - it has half the area and one third of the population. The US could get a Med base, hotels and tourism could provide jobs at all levels for Gazans living in modern well serviced housing with schools, healthcare, security etc. There are a few challenges - no doubt Donald regards them as trivial details. How to ensure Gazans are given priority: - training etc for reconstruction jobs, - rights of return to jobs and homes in a reconstructed Gaza - how to ensure Gaza has a separate identity as a state whilst subject to US oversight - Hong Kong may be an example - a long term lease with a timetable for full independence Outright rejection of an idea which may have something to commend it because its "Trump" is excessively negative - were some vaguely workable alternative solutions being put forward then there would be choices. The UN and international community have completely failed in the last 80 years. History will repeat itself with inadequate funds for reconstruction, HAMAS or another terrorist group in control, and the probability of damaging conflict in 10-15 years. Something needs to change!!! |
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New Wed 5 Feb 25 18:27
Trump - Kevin
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| The first sensible comment I've seen about this Terry. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 25 22:05
Trump - zippy
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>> The first sensible comment I've seen about this Terry. >> From a Western viewpoint perhaps. I wonder how many locals would be able to afford to live there once the multimillion dollar apartments have been built? It's basically racial cleansing by another name. What if they want peace and prosperity on their own terms? |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 02:14
Trump - Terry
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>> I wonder how many locals would be able to afford to live there once the >> multimillion dollar apartments have been built? >> >> It's basically racial cleansing by another name. >> >> What if they want peace and prosperity on their own terms? >> Short term jobs (5 years??) will be in rebuilding homes and essential infrastructures. Longer term jobs available will morph into hotels and hospitality requiring all skill levels from cleaners to chefs to hotel managers. There will also be jobs in civil administration, possible US base, infrastructure support etc etc etc. This is no different to any other tourist orientated destination be it the Spanish costas or Dubai. A settlement relies upon both sides making compromises and concessions. If one side is so utterly insistent upon their world view they are incapable of agreement, hostilities are inevitable. A solution is needed, not endless reasons why it won't work. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 03:41
Trump - zippy
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And who would own the nice expensive hotels. I'll bet it won't be the locals who's prime land will be stolen off them. And re the US based, really, the population hate the USA for supporting Israel. It would be a humiliation and capitulation to their enemy. It's a shame that other Arab countries don't step up to the mark, but if course Israel wouldn't accept it as they see the territory as theirs. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 07:58
Trump - sooty123
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| Well it appears, unsurprisingly, hilton on the med idea has been binned off. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 21:48
Trump - Kevin
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>And who would own the nice expensive hotels. That's an easy one. The locals obviously won't be able to own hotels, they'll be too skint after paying for their condos won't they? I suppose they could brush aside some of the rubble and call it a golf course though. What do you think the folks are going back to when/if a ceasefire becomes permanent? Over 60% of the place is currently uninhabitable with no water supply, no sanitation, no power, no food supply, no medical facilities. Give us some idea of what you consider would be a realistic alternative to housing the displaced in neighbouring countries while the basic infrastructure is restored as quickly as possible. More platitudes from politicians about 'We want to see a two-state solution' aren't going to help. >I'll bet it won't be the locals who's prime land will be stolen off them. Remind me whose land it is. I get terribly confused about who claims what in that region. >And re the US based, really, the population hate the USA for supporting Israel. >It would be a humiliation and capitulation to their enemy. Rebuilding needs to be coordinated and I haven't seen anyone else making offers. >It's a shame that other Arab countries don't step up to the mark, but if course >Israel wouldn't accept it as they see the territory as theirs. You're right. What we need is a no-BS mediator who'll get people around the table and bang a few heads together. And what Terry posted earlier was sensible because he's right. Things in Gaza have to change or we'll be back to square 1 in 10 years time. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 22:13
Trump - sooty123
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What do you think the folks are going back to when/if a ceasefire becomes permanent? >> Over 60% of the place is currently uninhabitable with no water supply, no sanitation, no >> power, no food supply, no medical facilities. Give us some idea of what you consider >> would be a realistic alternative to housing the displaced in neighbouring countries while the basic >> infrastructure is restored as quickly as possible. They'll more than likely live in ghetto/camps for the next couple of years. That's more realistic than moving 1.5-2m people into countries that have said they don't want to have them. How do you get them there and across a border that's closed? >> And what Terry posted earlier was sensible because he's right. Things in Gaza have to >> change or we'll be back to square 1 in 10 years time. >> Why do things have to change? Far from assured, it'll more than likely back to square in less than 10 years. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 25 02:00
Trump - zippy
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It's theft of land and ethnic cleansing which is a crime against humanity but bej g American/ the American president makes it moot as they would never serve him up. He's even said he wouldn't want to them to come back when the place is rebuilt. Please stop trying to paint it in any way other than it really is. Just because there are no better solutions doesn't make Trump's idea any good. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 25 02:10
Trump - zippy
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Link thehill.com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/thehill.com/homenews/administration/5133161-donald-trump-gaza-proposal-israel-takeover/ |
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New Sat 8 Feb 25 19:19
Trump - Kevin
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>It's theft of land and ethnic cleansing.. >Please stop trying to paint it in any way other than it really is. Just because there are no better >solutions doesn't make Trump's idea any good. I'm not painting it as anything other than what it is - Trump coming up with a solution to a problem and then flying off at a tangent* to embellish it with timeshare advertising. I certainly won't dismiss it as bad simply because it was Trump's idea though. Theft of land and ethnic cleansing? - Trump's original statement would undoubtedly qualify as intent of ethnic cleansing but I think someone has donated a clue so they've rowed back on that. Surprisingly, or perhaps not, building the hotels and golf courses would not be theft of land because Gaza's official status has never been fully resolved. I presume that is why he thinks that Israel can hand it over to him. * US media are now calling it "unfiltered" :-) |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 10:18
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> It's basically racial cleansing by another name. >> >> What if they want peace and prosperity on their own terms? One might have thought somebody whose Mother was raised on the Isle of Lewis might have understood how clearing people from their land for incomers is unspeakably cruel and has effects that echo down the generations. The Clearances and the demand for land to croft was one of the reasons that Lord Leverhulme's attempts to industrialise Lewis and Harris failed. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 11:44
Trump - Manatee
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I've been reflecting on this rather than rushing to judgement, but on that reflection I still think this is just more idiocy from Trump. The idea of taking ownership of Gaza etc. is a perfectly valid bit of brainstorming that might contain the seeds of something useful, but allowing it to come out of is mouth in public is the height of irresponsibility. The White House statement already contradicts what he said about Palestinians leaving Gaza permanently. Might be worth a read. Fair to say that the writer is not a Trump fan. heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/february-5-2025 I watched yesterday's press conference with the White House press secretary. I found it hard to distinguish from satire, At one point she describes President Trump as "the world's greatest deal maker." www.youtube.com/watch?v=E80vwd5iXbU Unfortunately Trump is having his strings pulled now by some very sinister people, Musk included. No one can believe that he's coming up with all this stuff himself. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 12:22
Trump - Zero
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>> No one can believe that he's coming up with all this stuff himself. Oh I can, It was classic mainstream Trump. He looks at Gaza and sees Miami Beach, its the same shape, similar weather, on the coast, Its stuff he understands (about the only thing he does), so mouth opened and Trump stuff comes out. Everyone else in the administration has to go into international damage limitation mode, whilst still trying to maintain Trump engagement |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 12:47
Trump - Manatee
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I can credit him with the Gaza thing yes. No feasibility has been done, I doubt if the diplomats were even aware of it, etc. It's just crackers. The tariff stuff is also classic Trump. He was always going to claim some kind of negotiating coup when and whatever agreement was reached. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 13:00
Trump - tyrednemotional
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>> >> Unfortunately Trump is having his strings pulled now by some very sinister people, Musk included. >> No one can believe that he's coming up with all this stuff himself. >> I rather predicted the Gaza rebuild thing somewhere upthread well before Trump pronounced. On a number of contentious issues I've little doubt he's having his strings pulled by others. (Jared Kushner seems implicated long term in the Gaza thing for instance) There is much dismantling of the mechanisms of state, and associate checks an balances, going on in the background and not being prominently reported (though you can still find some worrying detail). It suits the perpetrators of that not to have it on the front pages, so they're quite happy to have Trump occupying that space with his outrageous outpourings. It's a similar principle to the old saw "How do you keep flies out of the kitchen - put a b***dy great heap of s*** in the hall". |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 13:09
Trump - Zero
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>> I rather predicted the Gaza rebuild thing somewhere upthread well before Trump pronounced. P*** off, it was my idea, You are out of my administration, grab your coat. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 13:12
Trump - tyrednemotional
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>> >> .........You are out of my administration, grab your coat. >> Only Elon's allowed to say that.... |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 12:25
Trump - zippy
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>> really? we have voted in some doozies, but Worse than Trump? >> I meant heads of state from murderous regimes such as Saudi Arabia, China etc. visiting us officially. Last edited by: zippy on Sat 28 Dec 24 at 12:26
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 12:41
Trump - Zero
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>> I meant heads of state from murderous regimes such as Saudi Arabia, China etc. visiting >> us officially. Ah right, my misunderstoodment. Robert Mugabe must be top of the list. makes Trumpo look benevolent. Last edited by: Zero on Sat 28 Dec 24 at 12:42
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 12:49
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> Robert Mugabe must be top of the list. makes Trumpo look benevolent. Ceaușescu took the biscuit I think but there's more to it than benevolence v brutality. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 14:52
Trump - Terry
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Trump will be one of the 5 most important and influential people on the planet - obvious competitors for top spot may include Xi Jinping and Elon Musk + ???? He may actually be effective as a leader, despite a flawed personality - the US public obviously think so!. The global community works when leaders subordinate personal opinion in pursuit of the achievable. Despite his flaws, it would be madness to give him the cold shoulder politically. Perhaps the Democrats were instrumental in his electoral success by running an obviously failing Joe Biden and making a mess of their campaign. The UK has a choice - grin and bear it for 4 years, or slide steadily down the global importance league - there will be many who will happily play to his narcissistic tendencies. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 15:09
Trump - Rudedog
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As they say "a day is a long time in politics'... 4 years will be an eternity! |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 22:40
Trump - bathtub tom
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>> As they say "a day is a long time in politics'... 4 years will be >> an eternity! Gawd! I've just given SWMBO a new eternity ring as a Christmas present (the previous no longer fitted and couldn't be adjusted). Have I signed up for two eternities? |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 23:19
Trump - zippy
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>> >> Have I signed up for two eternities? >> Yes! |
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New Sun 29 Dec 24 09:11
Trump - tyrednemotional
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| ....but don't panic; it'll feel exactly the same as one. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 21:02
Trump - CGNorwich
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"The UK has a choice - grin and bear it for 4 years, or slide steadily down the global importance league - there will be many who will happily play to his narcissistic tendencies." D you really tnink that sucking up to Trump will have any effect on Britain's standing in the world? Rather the opposite I would have thought. And why are we so obsessed with our "Global importance" anyway? I would have thought living in a country that has a clear idea of what it believes to be right and wrong and is not afraid to say so is preferable to toadying to this most unpleasant man in the vain hope that a few crumbs drop form his table. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 28 Dec 24 at 21:02
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 21:15
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> >> D you really tnink that sucking up to Trump will have any effect on Britain's >> standing in the world? Rather the opposite I would have thought. And why are we >> so obsessed with our "Global importance" anyway? >> >> It isn't "Sucking up", but maintaining a relationship with the worlds largest superpower and one of our most important allies. Who America elects as there president is none of our business, we have to be pragmatic and just get on with it, just as we do in our dealings with every other country, many of whose leaders make Trump look like an exceptionally woke liberal. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 21:30
Trump - CGNorwich
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"t isn't "Sucking up", but maintaining a relationship with the worlds largest superpower and one of our most important allies. Who America elects as there president is none of our business, we have to be pragmatic and just get on with it, just as we do in our dealings with every other country, many of whose leaders make Trump look like an exceptionally woke liberal." I agree that we have to get on wtht it. We have no other choice. We need to maintain a civilised and civilised relationship wiht the United states as we do with all countries. What we don't have to do do is offer a second state visit, the first time this will have ever happened, to this deplorable man to salve his ego and cravenly hope that he will somehow bestow favours upon us in recognition. He won't. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 28 Dec 24 at 21:31
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 21:57
Trump - Zero
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Diplomacy is a fine art, an old art, one of the oldest in the first world. It's a long game, its a two faced game, played with rules honed over many years. A game played when Americans still lived in Teepees and followed the Bison. It's a game Trump has no idea about. There is a very good reason the Commonwealth & Foreign office back entrance faces no 10, and the MOD is round the corner and down the street. The Royal family is a major tool in the game, always has been, always will be. Trump is too narcisistic and vain to realise he is being grifted, get it done early, 4 years will be less painful for us than some in his sights because of it. The long game, diplomacy. Only Us and the French can do it well. One of the reasons we despise and admire each other. Last edited by: Zero on Sat 28 Dec 24 at 21:59
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 22:21
Trump - CGNorwich
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Only Us and the French can do it well. One of the reasons we despise and admire each other. Yes the first World War was triumph for French and British Diplomacy, as was the Suez crisis come to that. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 22:17
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> >> What we don't have to do do is offer a second state visit, the first >> time this will have ever happened, to this deplorable man to salve his ego and >> cravenly hope that he will somehow bestow favours upon us in recognition. He won't. >> It is the norm for the newly elected president of the US to be offered a state visit. And despite having held the office before that is exactly what he is, having spent a term out of power. We have not faced this situation before so there is no precedent, the only other US leader who returned to power after losing office was Grover Cleveland and that was in 1892. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 22:36
Trump - CGNorwich
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"It is the norm for the newly elected president of the US to be offered a state visit. " Absolutely it is not. There have only been three State Visits by US presidents since the late Queen's accession Namely: George W Bush 2003 Barack Obama 2011 Trump 2019 Is Trump really deserving of two? |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 23:23
Trump - zippy
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>> >> Is Trump really deserving of two? >> No, but his ego is, IYSWIM. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 24 10:30
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> There have only been three State Visits by US presidents since the late Queen's accession >> >> Namely: >> >> George W Bush 2003 >> Barack Obama 2011 >> Trump 2019 According to the US Reagan had a state visit in 1982. Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon and Carter all had visits to the UK, including meeting the Queen. Why those are 'informal' rather than being 'State' is, I suspect, a matter of history and protocol. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 24 11:12
Trump - CGNorwich
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Not all visits by Heads of State are deemed to be State Visits. Reagan certainly visited but was not accorded this honour. Technically a State Visit will include a Royal banquet. Let’s just leave him to his Big Mac, fries and ketchup at Mar a Lago. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 24 11:25
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> Not all visits by Heads of State are deemed to be State Visits. Reagan certainly >> visited but was not accorded this honour. Technically a State Visit will include a Royal >> banquet. Some records differ: www.rct.uk/collection/2004363/president-ronald-reagan-visits-britain-on-state-visit-1982 www.reaganlibrary.gov/archives/video/state-visit-united-kingdom-president-reagan-prime-minister-margaret-thatcher-enter-0 Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 29 Dec 24 at 11:26
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New Sun 29 Dec 24 17:59
Trump - CGNorwich
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Some records differ: only the incorrect ones :-) Here is the listing of Presidential visits published by the United States Embassy to the UK. uk.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/visits-of-presidents-of-the-united-states-to-the-united-kingdom/ You will see that only the three visits I mentined are described as State visits. Reagan's visit was simply a meeting. And here is the the Royal website which confirms the same thing. www.royal.uk/state-visit-president-united-states-america-and-mrs-trump I think they should know who they had to dinner! |
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New Mon 30 Dec 24 07:42
Trump - Biggles
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They are Americans, therefore easily confused. history.state.gov/departmenthistory/travels/president/reagan-ronald |
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New Mon 30 Dec 24 11:22
Trump - Terry
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>> They are Americans, therefore easily confused. >> history.state.gov/departmenthistory/travels/president/reagan-ronald >> It is not clear what constitutes a "State Visit". Quick Google provides no explicit definition. - meeting the King/Queen as Head of State seems to be a given - the invitation can be from either K/Q or PM - or someone acting on their instructions - they may stay in a royal residence - or may not - a state banquet is not an essential part of a state visit - but adds to the evidence The "Royal" website puts the Royal family at the centre of events - involved in making the invitation, welcoming, banquet etc etc. No wonder lists of state visits differ - invitees want to "big up" the occasion - good for the ego and public perceptions, the Royals want to make it "exclusive" to maximise diplomatic value. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 24 02:31
Trump - Terry
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>> D you really tnink that sucking up to Trump will have any effect on Britain's >> standing in the world? Rather the opposite I would have thought. There is a fundamental difference between "sucking up" and engaging with courtesy and respect. Failure may compromise any possible trade deals, NATO relationships, support for other policies the UK may choose to pursue. >>And why are we so obsessed with our "Global importance" anyway? The UK could continue its inexorable decline to the middle ranking middle income - not necessarily bad but better if it is an explicit policy, not the result of complacency or stupidity. >> I would have thought living in a country that has a clear idea of what >> it believes to be right and wrong and is not afraid to say so is >> preferable to toadying to this most unpleasant man in the vain hope that a few >> crumbs drop form his table., A worthy aspiration but more is achieved through courtesy than courting conflict. Particularly where differences exist, it is better to keep communications lines open, develop a common sense of common purpose, resolve differences, build trust etc etc. It is not "toadying" - it is best practice. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 24 03:38
Trump - CGNorwich
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“A worthy aspiration but more is achieved through courtesy than courting conflict“ I am nor proposing courting conflict, I am however suggesting that we do not grant the unique honour of a second state visit to this man. We have not done so for any other US president and have generally retained a good relationship with the country. What makes him so special in you eyes that we should grant him this unique honour? Cosying up to and flattering this man is demeaning to this country and is highly unlikely to bring the rewards you hope for. Trump does not care about the fortunes of U.K. or indeed anyone or anywhere other than himself. I would have thought that that was transparently obvious by now. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 24 11:35
Trump - Zero
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>> There is a fundamental difference between "sucking up" and engaging with courtesy and respect. The point is, Trump thinks he is being feted, hugely respected, elevated to the ranks of Royalty. Everyone else realises he is being soft soaped. That is Diplomacy. Wonderfully two faced. Specially when you lump him in the same category with Mugabe, Ceaușescu |
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New Sun 29 Dec 24 14:11
Trump - Fullchat
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It is not "toadying" - it is best practice. I believe it called diplomacy. Unfortunately this current government don't seem to have anyone with the character and personality suitable to bestow the title of Diplomat upon. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 23:21
Trump - zippy
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>> >> Ah right, my misunderstoodment. Your misunderstoodment is totally understood as my post could be seen as ambiguous. ;-D |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 15:39
Trump - Manatee
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The question is, what do we achieve by sticking two fingers up to Trump? Probably better at least to observe the normal civilities. King Charles's job is not to be political, so nothing is lost, not moral ground sacrificed, by him entertaining the Orange One. If our political leaders are to meet him and if they think it is in our interest (or otherwise) to tell him where he is going wrong then they can do so (or not) in private. Scaramucci I think says that whilst he is a nightmare, he can be flattered into changing his behaviour. I'm not sure that he can be coerced by being insulted. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 24 18:43
Trump - martin aston
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Whatever else we might think of the Royals this is where they come into their own. Or at least the late Queen did. They can sail along being “friend” to all while keeping their own opinions to themselves. This works with the general populace too as most think, whatever their political views, that the monarch is on their side. Even republicans gave the Queen a lot of slack. I am ambivalent to many aspects of the monarchy but when it comes to managing our relationships with the oddballs they are a strong card to play. |
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New Fri 10 Jan 25 23:03
Trump - Mapmaker
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I mean, would the world really have been better off with a senile Biden? I’m pretty certain Putin would never have invaded Ukraine had Trump been in the White House. He just wouldn’t have been able to predict the action. And it’s all because Obama backed Hilary Clinton; literally the least electable candidate imaginable. What was he thinking of. And I reckon Musk will get bored before Easter. |
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New Sat 11 Jan 25 01:13
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> I mean, would the world really have been better off with a senile Biden? Without getting into a debate about Biden's capacity he wasn't the candidate. |
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New Sat 11 Jan 25 06:58
Trump - Mapmaker
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| No but he was going to be the candidate until the last minute. Desiree’s the Democrat’s chances in my view. In politics you don’t give your opponents an excuse! |
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New Sat 11 Jan 25 11:27
Trump - Terry
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The Democrats were forced into selecting an alternative at a late stage when it became abundantly clear publicly Biden was already very obviously failing both physically and mentally. It opened the path for to a Trump victory. The Democrats are responsible for the outcome - foolishly making Biden their candidate when he was evidently incapable of lasting a full term. On a personal level I think Trump unpleasant, but judging POTUS in terms of UK behavioural norms is mistaken. The US and the UK are two nations separated by a common language. There is an obvious attraction to "cowboy" stereotypes of "tell it like it is", "action not words" etc. What we in the UK think is unimportant - the reality is that unless he is shown appropriate respect as the democratically elected leader of a country with a GDP 8 times that of the UK, we will be the losers. |
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New Sat 11 Jan 25 13:58
Trump - CGNorwich
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“What we in the UK think is unimportant - the reality is that unless he is shown appropriate respect as the democratically elected leader of a country with a GDP 8 times that of the UK, we will be the losers.” There is ever difference between respect for the office and grovelling. Trump shows no respect for this country and our politicians. Our relationship should be formal and polite but no more. If we are talking of respect perhaps we should consider self respect. |
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New Sat 11 Jan 25 14:20
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> The Democrats were forced into selecting an alternative at a late stage when it became >> abundantly clear publicly Biden was already very obviously failing both physically and mentally. The Democrats should have offered Biden the pistol and whisky solution by late 2023. If they'd had a proper Primary run rather than a coronation they might have done better but then again the polls were so far out that it's anybody's guess. |
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New Sat 11 Jan 25 16:19
Trump - sooty123
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| The polls weren't really out, biden was in for a drubbing. They ignored it until they couldn't. Stupidity. |
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New Sat 11 Jan 25 16:51
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> The polls weren't really out, biden was in for a drubbing. They ignored it until >> they couldn't. Stupidity. I agree with the ignored it bit. Am I wrong about the polls up to election day and Harris v Trump? |
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New Sat 11 Jan 25 19:13
Trump - sooty123
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>> Am I wrong about the polls up to election day and Harris v Trump? >> The ones i saw showed biden losing badly and then harris losing by a lesser margin. |
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New Sat 11 Jan 25 20:03
Trump - Zero
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The ones I saw (a composite of all the polls) had Biden badly behind, and a Harris kick to be neck and neck. At the end of the day, illegal immigration and the economy won it for Trump. |
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New Sat 11 Jan 25 16:24
Trump - Mapmaker
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>> No but he was going to be the candidate until the last minute. Desiree’s the >> Democrat’s chances in my view. In politics you don’t give your opponents an excuse! >> I presume I meant ‘destroyed’. Apologies for that. |
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New Wed 2 Apr 25 18:32
Trump - smokie
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Great call Mapmaker, Elon has stepped down already!! www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14564071/Elon-Musk-steps-doge-trump-tesla.html Last edited by: smokie on Wed 2 Apr 25 at 18:34
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New Sat 18 Jan 25 10:18
Trump - Zero
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy4mmrr7j8mo The Trump official presidential photo. |
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New Sat 18 Jan 25 12:53
Trump - James Loveless
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I saw this yesterday and could not believe my eyes - but then, nothing Trump does should surprise anyone any more. It shows a vaguely menacing, shifty-looking individual with no hint of warmth. It's probably a lot more revealing than he realises. I guess it's meant to be his "power-mode", but someone who has to try this hard is really demonstrating their insecurity. God only knows what he'll get up to, post-inauguration, after we've had all the "alternative facts" and doctored photos about the crowd size. Looking at this guy really makes me sick. |
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New Sat 18 Jan 25 13:23
Trump - zippy
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If this were a photo of a parent, one might guess that it was one that didn't spare the rod. There is no ounce of compassion in that image. |
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New Sat 18 Jan 25 13:29
Trump - Zero
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I think it's hilarious, it's a pantomime villain poster "Appearing with non gender specific snow white, and the 7 alternately sized non gender specific peoples |
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New Sat 18 Jan 25 14:31
Trump - Terry
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As an image it's probably a little more honest than most political portraits. Typically the subject is shown as a smiling, nice to know person, kind to children and pets - almost always a deliberately skewed representation of reality. Trump was elected on the back of an intent to get things done - MAGA. His expression reflects that determination - however repugnant some may find it. |
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New Sat 18 Jan 25 14:37
Trump - tyrednemotional
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>> >> Trump was elected on the back of an intent to get >> His expression reflects that determination - however repugnant some may find it. >> |
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New Sat 18 Jan 25 14:39
Trump - zippy
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Yep. Son of an immigrant, married to an immigrant, vows to rid the USA of immigrants. You couldn't make it up. (Of course he means the wrong type of immigrants.) |
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New Sat 18 Jan 25 16:04
Trump - John Boy
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=272voTjeHy4 |
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New Sat 18 Jan 25 19:17
Trump - CGNorwich
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| Its the same photo one as the one on the Sex Offenders Register. |
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New Sat 18 Jan 25 20:14
Trump - sooty123
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www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-launches-own-meme-coin-cryptocurrency/ How about some trump crypto currency? $6bn market capitalisation already in one day from launch. |
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 17:45
Trump - smokie
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Renaming the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America? Taking back the Panama canal? Two genders only? Massive repatriation of immigrants (I think illegal). Significant trade tariffs on imported goods. Some fairly extreme stuff on its way in the US if Trump's speech is to be believed... |
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 18:46
Trump - Manatee
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I seriously wonder if there is any way back to functioning democracy, now that conversations on social media are curated by the tyrants themselves (noting that both Musk and Zuckerberg now appear to have been captured by Trump.) It's very worrying that 18-24 year-olds appear to be very Trumpy. An age group which historically has tended to left wing views. Of course it's hard to distinguish Trump's actual intentions from what he says. But he is mad, bad and probably dangerous, of that I have no doubt. |
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 19:18
Trump - sooty123
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| I think he can write whatever speech he likes, governing and getting laws passed is somewhat harder. |
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 19:41
Trump - Terry
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A different perspective - although were I to have had a vote I don't think he would not have been my choice. The west - Europe and the US are in decline. They have simply become sclerotic. On a social level we could decide that this is desirable - less stress, keep everybody happy etc. If so, understandably a Trump victory is a threat to the comfortable and stable. We lack clear leadership, want to pander to all views. Most evident progress since the UK election is establishing countless reviews and enquiries, many of which will not report for several years. Claims of a Labour growth plan have zero credibility. The evidence of public enquiries is equally dire - both Tory and Labour are equally culpable - Post Office, contaminated blood, Iraq, Hillsborough to name but a handful. This is just unacceptable - a waste of public money and opportunity. So the different perspective - Trump is set on making radical changes rapidly. Some I agree with, some I don't. But at least he is a potential mould breaker when the alternative was 4 more years of the completely unremarkable. |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 08:43
Trump - Manatee
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The last 4 years have arguably been very successful, using Trump's own favourite measure the stock market. The main failure has been to allow the huge deficit to grow even bigger. Trump actually changed very little 17-20. He is in a stronger position now unless some Republicans suddenly grow backbones. Unremarkable is good, as long as you are doing ok. Lots of Americans aren't,not least because healthcare is a massive issue that Trump is unlikely to fix. I don't know about sclerotic. The US is thoroughly decadent, and we aren't much better. On the subject of pendulums, they can really only swing back if the pendulum is still there. Is it good per se to be a mould breaker? Hitler certainly was. Mussolini made the trains run on time, except that he didn't, he just said he did. Trump, I think, is more Mussolini than Hitler. Driven by vanity rather than ideals. |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 08:51
Trump - Zero
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For the life of me, I dont see why we had to have hours and hours of live coverage of his inauguration spread over two main TV channels. At the expense of "the bidding room" as well. |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 12:19
Trump - Manatee
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>> For the life of me, I dont see why we had to have hours and >> hours of live coverage of his inauguration spread over two main TV channels. Thankfully I missed it. Somebody has helpfully gleaned the pith of his speech, of which there was just over a minute's worth. www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cn015gq57keo Can a sane man appear to be insane, or does that make him insane anyway? |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 14:20
Trump - zippy
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Didn't he also say America was first to split the atom. That was Ernest Rutherford a New Zealander at the University of Manchester. He also said the USA invented the internet / www which was actually invented by Sir Timothy Berners-Lee, an Englishman at CERN. |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 14:36
Trump - Manatee
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>> Didn't he also say ... I only watched the 1m 20s edit I'm afraid. He goes on for hours and most of it rubbish. I did check his statement on the Panama Canal. I could only remember Ferdinand de Lesseps, of course the Americans finished it. I imagine his plan for seizing the canal will be controversial. I wasn't aware the Chinese are running it and apparently nobody else was! |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 20:02
Trump - Terry
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> >> Didn't he also say ... >> >> I only watched the 1m 20s edit I'm afraid. He goes on for hours and >> most of it rubbish. >> >> I did check his statement on the Panama Canal. I could only remember Ferdinand de >> Lesseps, of course the Americans finished it. I imagine his plan for seizing the canal >> will be controversial. I wasn't aware the Chinese are running it and apparently nobody else >> was! That you don't like the message does not make it rubbish. As he arguably holds the most important Office in the world ALL that he utters may have consequences even if you don't agree. The French started the canal in 1881 and gave up in 1889 having achieved little, ran ran out of money, with 20,000 dead. The US took over construction 1904 and completed it in 1914. China apparently have a concession to run the ports at either end of the canal. I understand there are issues over capacity - limited rainfall failing to top up the ponds needed to operate the locks. Whether Trump is justified in his remarks over pricing are difficult to assess - probably have some limited merit. |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 20:13
Trump - CGNorwich
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Interesting to compare views on the seizure of the Suez Canal by the France and the UK and the proposed seizure of the Panama Canal by the U.S Eisenhower thought an invasion would be counterproductive and would probably result in the closure of the canal, at least temporarily. He also worried that invasion would be perceived as an act of Western imperialism |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 21:03
Trump - Kevin
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>Interesting to compare views on the seizure of the Suez Canal by the France and the UK and the >proposed seizure of the Panama Canal by the U.S What makes you think he means a military seizure? |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 22:05
Trump - CGNorwich
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| What makes you think he doesn’t? Difficult to see how he can “take back” the territory of a sovereign country without military force or the threat of it. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 09:06
Trump - Kevin
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>What makes you think he doesn’t? I didn't say he doesn't. I asked you why you assume that he does. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 09:10
Trump - CGNorwich
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| As I explained. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 09:52
Trump - tyrednemotional
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| ...he's simply going to rename it "The Puerto Rican Canal".... |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 10:43
Trump - Kevin
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> As I explained. If you'd taken any notice of Trump's past behaviour on the international stage you'll have seen that his opening move is predominantly economic threats. A tactic which I think started with his handling of migrants travelling through Mexico and which also seems to have been successful for him in other areas. I haven't heard of anyone with the c****** to call his bluff in any meaningful sense yet. The US did retain the right in the Carter agreement to intervene militarily to ensure the 'neutrality' of the canal so an invasion might not be entirely unjustified if it can be shown that American shipping is being deliberately disadvantaged. |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 20:18
Trump - Manatee
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>> That you don't like the message does not make it rubbish. As he arguably holds >> the most important Office in the world ALL that he utters may have consequences even >> if you don't agree. The fact that much of what he says is rubbish is what makes it rubbish, nothing to do with what I like. The fact that you or someone else might agree with it does not make it non-rubbish. Neither does his position as President make rubbish worth listening to. The man is a lying creep, undeserving of any respect from me, and doesn't mean half of what he says anyway. I'm quite happy for the BBC to select the possibly comprehensible 82 seconds out of his half hour of self aggrandizing drivel on my behalf. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 09:57
Trump - James Loveless
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"That you don't like the message does not make it rubbish. As he arguably holds the most important Office in the world ALL that he utters may have consequences even if you don't agree." In principle, I agree. However, in the case of this individual much that he utters is utter rubbish. For example, at the various recent inaugural events where Trump spoke, he uttered lie after lie. Even his apparent firm commitments have in the past turned out to be meaningless. Last time he promised to remove Obamacare. Never happened. He said he would build a border wall and Mexico would pay for it. The wall was never completed and Mexico hasn't paid a dime. He promised to clear the national debt, but it ballooned. He promised to remove all illegal immigrants (estimated to be more than 11.3 million). Didn't happen. He said he would approve waterboarding, adding that "torture works". He didn't. He promised to get Hillary Clinton locked up and then abandoned the idea. So I would be very wary of believing anything he says. I do agree the rest of the world has to deal with him, but not rely on him. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 10:58
Trump - smokie
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I am no way a Trump supporter but it's too easy to conflate lies with missed or failed targets. It seems to me that all governments are destined to have some successes and some failures. And your own perception of success or failure may depend on where you stand on whatever the policy may be. This link to ChatGPT tells of quite a number of "achievements" during his last term chatgpt.com/share/6790cb06-1500-800c-845b-aca0aa6207b8 - regardless of whether you approve of them her seems to have managed to make a fair bit happen during his time, despite fairly robust public opposition on occasions, and of course a small/non-existent majority in the second half of his term. I will repeat however that I am def not a Trump supporter, and he has been known to outright lie!!! |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 11:16
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> I am no way a Trump supporter but it's too easy to conflate lies with >> missed or failed targets. It seems to me that all governments are destined to have >> some successes and some failures. And your own perception of success or failure may depend >> on where you stand on whatever the policy may be. >> Whatever he did or did not achieve in his first term you only need to listen to the clips from his speeches post inauguration to hear they're peppered with lies. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 11:14
Trump - Kevin
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I've got news for you lot. It may come as a shock so you might want to sit down first. Politicians lie... Including ours... There... I've said it. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 13:14
Trump - James Loveless
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"I've got news for you lot. It may come as a shock so you might want to sit down first. Politicians lie... Including ours... There... I've said it." So Trump is no different from the rest? Trump's lying is off the scale and it seems quite deliberate as a way of throwing people into confusion. Of course, his supporters cherry-pick what he said to suit themselves and/or ignore the basic fact that someone who is prepared to lie on such a collossal scale has a problem with reality. Trump IS different from the others. With other politicians, once you know where they're coming from, you can predict where the lies come from and interpret what they say to get at something like the truth. With Trump, few people have a clue what's going on in his head and he has been careful to surround himself with uneducated and inexperienced people whose only value to him is their loyalty and who will therefore not question anything he says or does. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 13:35
Trump - Manatee
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>> Trump IS different from the others. With other politicians, once you know where they're coming >> from, you can predict where the lies come from and interpret what they say to >> get at something like the truth. With Trump, few people have a clue what's going >> on in his head and Yes... but emulators are appearing. Trump has stretched the window for falsehoods. >>he has been careful to surround himself with uneducated and >> inexperienced people whose only value to him is their loyalty and who will therefore not >> question anything he says or does. One of the worst aspects of Trump. Sensible leaders appoint the best, most capable people they can find/afford. Trump seems to do the opposite, I have no clue as to why. Maybe it's his own insecurity, which is on show all the time. A lot falls on the civil service, as it should, but this time he intends to replace them with loyalists too. That uncapable people damage performance is self evident, but they are also horrible to work for so can't retain the best people under them. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 15:23
Trump - Kevin
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>So Trump is no different from the rest? Nope. Not at his level. >Trump's lying is off the scale... Off what scale? Is there now an acceptable/unacceptable measure of lies that the establishment must stick to? Where would you put the pantomime of claiming that Biden was still compos mentis for the last year or so? >Of course, his supporters cherry-pick what he said to suit themselves and/or ignore >the basic fact that someone who is prepared to lie on such a collossal scale has a >problem with reality. Just like his detractors will cherry-pick and resort to insults. Nothing new. >Trump IS different from the others. With other politicians, once you know where >they're coming from, you can predict where the lies come from and interpret what >they say to get at something like the truth. He is no different to his opposite numbers around the world. Russia, China, the Middle East, Asia, Africa etc. I'm not saying that is good but it is necessary. >With Trump, few people have a clue what's going on in his head and he has been >careful to surround himself with uneducated and inexperienced people whose only >value to him is their loyalty and who will therefore not question anything he says >or does. Good. In his position what education and experience would you be demanding before you appointed someone. If it were me, I'd go for people I trusted and were the most likely to get the job done. And BTW, loyalty does not preclude discussion or dissent. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 16:07
Trump - Zero
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>> > >> Good. In his position what education and experience would you be demanding before you appointed >> someone. If it were me, I'd go for people I trusted and were the most >> likely to get the job done. And BTW, loyalty does not preclude discussion or dissent. In trump world, qualification, education and experience is not what Trump wants, In Trump world loyal acolytes to exclude discussion or dissent is what floats his boat. Trump is not as mad or bad as he plays, its a bit of an act to keep others off balance. The worse thing about a Trump presidency is that he breeds loonies and divisions in the population. That will come to bite him. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 17:59
Trump - Kevin
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>..In Trump world loyal acolytes to exclude discussion or dissent is what floats his boat. The people he's appointed who I've seen before aren't shrinking violets. I don't see the likes of Tom Homan or RFK Jr as yes men. >The worse thing about a Trump presidency is that he breeds loonies and divisions in >the population. That will come to bite him. I'll give you that. Plus he doesn't do subtlety, he's abrasive and that upsets the folks who won't just shrug it off. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 19:48
Trump - Zero
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>> likes of Tom Homan or RFK Jr as yes men. >> RFK jr? Jeez you picked a terrible example there. The blokes a wind sock, he'll point what ever way trump farts, the bloke is multilingual in Yes. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 21:43
Trump - Kevin
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>RFK jr? Jeez you picked a terrible example there. He's a misfit that's for sure but I don't think he's a yes man. |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 06:30
Trump - sooty123
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>> >RFK jr? Jeez you picked a terrible example there. >> >> He's a misfit that's for sure but I don't think he's a yes man. >> He comes across as a nodding dog, much like Trump's vp. Tripping over themselves to pretend they like trump. Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 23 Jan 25 at 06:31
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 18:09
Trump - Kevin
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>He also said the USA invented the internet / www which was actually invented by Sir Timothy Berners-Lee,.. The Internet and WWW aren't really synonymous and the former WAS a US invention. The Internet is a collection of defined protocols and standards* that allow intelligent devices to communicate. It evolved out of a project funded by DARPA to transfer information electronically between computers from different manufacturers and in different locations even if they were not connected to the same physical network. The WWW is just an application that uses the Internet to communicate. Also, I'm not sure that Berners-Lee would want to take full credit for 'inventing' the WWW. What he did was solve an internal problem at CERN in sharing documents. I doubt that he realised then what impact his little document sharing app would have once big business learned of it and saw the potential. * Documented in what are called Request For Comments (RFCs). |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 19:30
Trump - Terry
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>> Didn't he also say America was first to split the atom. That was Ernest Rutherford >> a New Zealander at the University of Manchester. >> >> He also said the USA invented the internet / www which was actually invented by >> Sir Timothy Berners-Lee, an Englishman at CERN. I'm not sure what he said - but quite unambiguously the US developed and used the first nuclear weapon, and the US made the internet a reality for all. They may lack the brains to research and innovate, but they sure as hell know better than just about everyone how to turn science into something useful. |
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 19:19
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> Two genders only? Massive repatriation of immigrants (I think illegal). Significant trade tariffs on imported >> goods. >> >> >> Mass repatriation of ILLEGAL immigrants. The majority of the population in any country you care to name would be behind that, and I doubt if multiple gender classifications garner much support either. The reason large parts of the world are swinging towards the right is that they feel their legitimate concerns are being met from professional politicians who have never experienced life outside of that sphere with nothing but a patronising pat on the head, and an accusation of some sort of "Ism" if they don't shut up and listen to those who know best. Why do you think we got Brexit? |
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 19:46
Trump - CGNorwich
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“Why do you think we got Brexit? Lies and general ignorance? Last edited by: CGNorwich on Mon 20 Jan 25 at 19:47
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 21:21
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> >> Lies and general ignorance? >> Neither side cared too much about the truth, and as for ignorance, is that everybody with a different political view to you? People living on run down estates and doing menial jobs will have an entirely different take on life to you, especially when they hear employers singing the praises of immigrant workers who will work twice as hard for half the money. Not something that will effect a middle class professional, of course. |
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 21:47
Trump - CGNorwich
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"Neither side cared too much about the truth" 1) I'm not talking about "sides". The ignorance of the population as a whole when it comes to basic uderstanding of arithmetic, statistics and how the economy works is astounding. That is compounded by an underlying fear in all humans of outsiders or foreigners 2) Because of the above it is easy for politiicans using the media both traditional and social to distort facts, lie, and manipulate large sections of the popuation to gain power and influence. That is why Americans have Trump. That is why we had Brexit Boris Johnson and Liz Truss This why the French have Marine Le Pen That is why the Germans have the AFD |
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 22:46
Trump - Kevin
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RO'R explained exactly why we have all those things. It was entirely predictable and you are making the same mistake. Our most serious question now is how far the pendulum is going to swing in the other direction. |
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 19:46
Trump - Terry
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>> Mass repatriation of ILLEGAL immigrants. The majority of the population in any country you care >> to name would be behind that, and I doubt if multiple gender classifications garner much >> support either. >> >> The reason large parts of the world are swinging towards the right is that they >> feel their legitimate concerns are being met from professional politicians who have never experienced life >> outside of that sphere with nothing but a patronising pat on the head, and an >> accusation of some sort of "Ism" if they don't shut up and listen to those >> who know best. >> >> Why do you think we got Brexit? Agree totally |
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New Mon 20 Jan 25 21:18
Trump - Rudedog
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Interesting to see where the Trump-Musk relationship will go with Trump shouting 'drill, drill, drill' implying an increase in oil production to maybe 'fuel' the resurrection of the US ICE car industry and how that will sit with the Tesla owner hoping for the exact opposite. Also a prediction - Trump and wife have just lunched their own crypto currency, how long before he dictates that 'something' within Government has to be bought/sold only using some form of crypto? |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 00:45
Trump - Crypto - zippy
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Seen somewhere that an organisation he owns has made $43billion on paper already from these $Trump coins! Though if they sold their holding, the value would likely plummet. Last edited by: zippy on Tue 21 Jan 25 at 00:46
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 08:01
Trump - Crypto - Rudedog
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Did he? or didn't he? www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cpdxzjw9p47o He always sounds a bit out of it when he talks to me. |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 12:08
Trump - Crypto - Manatee
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>> Seen somewhere that an organisation he owns has made $43billion on paper already from these >> $Trump coins! >> >> Though if they sold their holding, the value would likely plummet. Does this show anything except what an emperor's clothes job cryptocurrency is? (Yes I know that by extension fiat currency is 'worse' but it does seem to be reasonably predictable in a stable economy). Apparently $TRUMP200 million has been created, and there are to be a further 800 million $TRUMPs issued over the next 3 years. A bizarre situation in which the PotUS 'prints' some tokens, and people can buy them from him, thereby putting money in his bank account? And what they get for their money is...a token. Is this legal? In any way ethical? Does anyone here understand this? How is it different from me creating some secure digital tokens and selling them? I do understand that they are only worth the trust people put in them, and like GBP in that respect. But how many cryptocurrencies will the world support? And it's bizarre that they basically circulate and are traded almost only for owners to try and make pots of government-issued money. Shirley, until they are principally used to buy and sell actual stuff, their value is not established at all? Yes a lot of money has been made and none of it by me. People also got rich buying South Sea stock. How is this different? |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 14:34
Trump - Crypto - zippy
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>> Is this legal? In any way ethical? Legal. I think so. Ethical. That's another question. I suppose it depends on who's book of ethics you subscribe to. |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 15:18
Trump - Crypto - bathtub tom
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| Had a carpenter here last week who was bemoaning the fact that he'd 'lost' £1k on bitcoin recently. Turns out, he hadn't actually lost it, but because he'd sold some and they then went up, he hadn't made £1k profit. He was tearing himself apart over it! |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 15:41
Trump - Crypto - zippy
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>>Had a carpenter here.... When I worked for my last employer, I had to get permission to trade any security and there were several periods each year when I was banned from dealing in any securities relating to them (shares etc), despite being only a minor functionary. A colleague had some shares in a major UK PLC and was in the same position as I was. He wanted to sell the shares and asked for permission. Unbeknown to him (Chinese walls) the PLC was looking to become a customer of ours and the sale was denied. Three years later when he was able to sell the shares, the price had halved. He complained that the price was dropping and that he was losing money and the bank wouldn't have it, saying that it's not a loss until it is "booked" - i.e. traded. Funnily enough, today I have sold a small pot of shares - to keep within my £3k capital gains allowance and I am glad I didn't have to get my bosses authorisation and the securities team's authorisation then have only 24 hours to do the deal, then report the deal to them with evidence. There does seem to be a lot of "red tape" around. |
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New Tue 21 Jan 25 23:29
Trump - The Constitution Has Gone... - zippy
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www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/our-government/the-constitution/ Shows a 404 error... :-D Last edited by: smokie on Wed 22 Jan 25 at 09:12
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 11:38
Trump - The Constitution Has Gone... - Terry
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>> www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/our-government/the-constitution/ >> >> Shows a 404 error... >> Click on the link to the HOME PAGE. Heroic images have replaced what I suspect would previously have been fairly conventional. Now I will never know - or perhaps reality is that the Donald is now the default constitution! |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 11:51
Trump - The Constitution Has Gone... - Kevin
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Oh my Glub! Another page gone: www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/kevin-for-president/ |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 14:18
Trump - The Constitution Has Gone... - zippy
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>> Oh my Glub! >> >> Another page gone: >> >> www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/kevin-for-president/ >> You got it. :-D |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 08:54
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> Mass repatriation of ILLEGAL immigrants. Do we have handle on the actual number of illegals staying below the radar. It's far more difficult then it was for them to find legitimate work or rent homes for example. The vast majority who've arrived since Brexit ate legal. A mix of people we need to do jobs of work at both menial and highly skilled levels and students literally keeping a large chunk of higher education afloat. Probably rather too many dependants but if they can't have their family with them they may go elsewhere. People on small boats claiming Asylum have been blown up out of all proportion and are frankly a complete distraction. The previous administration shamelessly exploited them for the purpose of distracting the public. If the illegals are there, overstayers or those who failed to register after arriving on a lorry, I've absolutely no issue with deporting them to any place that will have them. When reality and practicality kick in deportations are not that simple. As the man in the thread title may be about to find out. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 09:31
Trump - CGNorwich
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At least some people are prepared to speak up. www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/trump-slams-prayer-service-bishop-as-nasty-for-urging-mercy-to-immigrants-lgbt-community/ar-AA1xCpvs?ocid=BingNewsSerp |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 12:24
Trump - Manatee
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Good for Bishop Budde. I saw that and greatly enjoyed it. Strange but not surprising that Trump should object so strongly to Christian guidance on the same day he declared himself to have been saved by God in order that he can make America great again (again). |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 14:41
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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| "Have mercy on children, they're scared of you", could have been applied to the Christian faiths over many decades. |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 12:32
Trump - Fullchat
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Emily Thornberry on LBC on the day of inauguration said, "Take Donald Trump seriously, not literally" |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 20:02
Trump - Manatee
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>> Emily Thornberry on LBC on the day of inauguration said, >> >> "Take Donald Trump seriously, not literally" A reasonable comment. We should judge him by what he does, not what he says. Based on what he has done already since the inauguration, he's a moron. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7e0jve875o (Drug dealer with life sentence pardoned) |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 20:10
Trump - Manatee
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Background on Ulbricht ...Trump is not helping those trying to defend his presidency. Tonight he pardoned Ross Ulbricht, who founded and from January 2011 to October 2013 ran an online criminal marketplace called Silk Road, where more than $200 million in illegal drugs and other illicit goods and services, such as computer hacking, were bought and sold with cryptocurrency. Most of the sales were of drugs, with the Silk Road home page listing nearly 13,000 options, including heroin, cocaine, ecstasy, and LSD. The wares were linked to at least six deaths from overdose around the world. In May 2015, Ulbricht was sentenced to life in prison and was ordered to forfeit more than $180 million. In May 2024, during his presidential campaign, Trump promised to pardon Ulbricht in order to court the votes of libertarians, who support drug legalization on the grounds that people should be able to make their own choices. They saw Ulbricht’s sentence as government overreach. Tonight, Trump posted that he had pardoned Ulbricht (although Trump spelled his name wrong), saying: “The scum that worked to convict him were some of the same lunatics who were involved in the modern day weaponization of government against me. He was given two life sentences, plus 40 years. Ridiculous!” |
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New Wed 22 Jan 25 23:48
Trump - zippy
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Snopes is usually reliable... www.snopes.com/fact-check/white-house-spanish-website/ www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-admin-us-constitution/ |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 00:17
Trump - Terry
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Science, medicine, technology etc need people with big brains carefully analysing complex data to come up with credible theories which may ultimately deliver that which is intended. It needs people with patience and commitment to try and try again despite frequent failures. They do not get thing done. "Doers" get things done. Lacklustre inadequate performance of US and most European governments needs "doers" not "analysis paralysis" from endless public enquiries and analysis in pursuit of the goal of not alienating any voter. Trump is not stupid - but not exceptionally bright. He: - has a limited attention span - places high value on swift positive outcomes - wastes no time flogging a dead horse - however virtuous - uses unpredictability to unsettle - MAGA is a clear statement of intent - is largely unconcerned who is upset in achieving his goals - moral and ethical concerns unless capable of clarity are not worth wasting time debating He is POTUS for the next four years - health and assassination permitting. We should judge his achievements over the whole term. Just as we should the new Labour government and Starmer. IMHO they have made a woeful start and public confidence is clearly being eroded. Very easy to be very critical - but they too have another 4 years - I may not like it but I sincerely hope performance improves. Do I think Trump decent, pleasant, nice to know - no. Would Biden have got a ceasefire in the middle east without Trumps probably very direct and blunt intervention - I doubt it. Will the simplistic tactics re Ukraine produce a swift outcome - we will have to wait and see. |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 09:56
Trump - Boxsterboy
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| The cover of this week's PRIVATE EYE is a must-see! |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 12:42
Trump - Manatee
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There is no equivalence between Starmer and Trump. I don't need to wait and see whether some good comes of Trump. Maybe something will, but the price will be too high. He is not motivated by improving the lives of Americans. He is a criminal despot, otherwise an empty vessel, an emperor without clothes. He has already pardoned insurrectionist 'martyrs', domestic terrorists. He has undone Biden's negotiated price caps on essential pharmaceuticals that 120 million Americans depend on. He is definitely being manipulated. He has already made 100's of Executive Orders and a man with the attention span of a goldfish has not come up with those on his own. Among them he has rescinded the 1965 Equal Employment Opportunity Act. It is now legal to refuse somebody a job because they are (or are not) a woman, black, or Hispanic. Can you imagine this happening under Starmer without even any consultation? Let alone that he would have to get it through Parliament. I can't imagine how this will play out. My hope is that Republicans will rise up and stop this at some point. Meanwhile if it's not too late can we at least not normalize Trump. |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 13:33
Trump - Zero
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>> Among them he has rescinded the 1965 Equal Employment Opportunity Act. It is >> now legal to refuse somebody a job because they are (or are not) a woman, >> black, or Hispanic. Nope that not the case, it is not legal to refuse someone a job based solely on gender or race. (tho that has never applied to the military - legally) www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/ending-illegal-discrimination-and-restoring-merit-based-opportunity/ What he has done has rescinded any positive discrimination and inclusion. There is a difference. Last edited by: Zero on Thu 23 Jan 25 at 13:34
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 14:04
Trump - Manatee
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It has certainly been revoked, as widely reported and in your link. "(i) Executive Order 11246 of September 24, 1965 (Equal Employment Opportunity), is hereby revoked. For 90 days from the date of this order, Federal contractors may continue to comply with the regulatory scheme in effect on January 20, 2025." I haven't seen what has been put in its place. EO11246 is not about DEI 'quotas' although it mentions affirmative action "to ensure equal opportunity". |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 15:13
Trump - Zero
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It specifically excludes the constitution. and you extended your interpretation beyond the scope as in my cut quote.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 23 Jan 25 at 15:15
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 15:30
Trump - Manatee
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>> It specifically excludes the constitution. and you extended your interpretation beyond the scope as in >> my cut quote. Yes, I probably did. I hope so. |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 18:40
Trump - Biggles
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| Except Federal Government was exempted from Title VII, hence the need for the Executive Order. |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 17:40
Trump - Terry
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>> There is no equivalence between Starmer and Trump. >> Totally agree. Simplistically one is a "doer" the other is a "thinker" >> I don't need to wait and see whether some good comes of Trump. Maybe something >> will, but the price will be too high. He is not motivated by improving the lives of Americans. Both Starmer and Trump were elected, both deserve the space to implement that upon which they stood. Whilst Trump (good or bad) cannot stand again, Starmer can (for good or bad). >> He is a criminal despot, otherwise an empty vessel, an emperor without clothes. >> He has already pardoned insurrectionist 'martyrs', domestic terrorists. He has undone >> Biden's negotiated price caps on essential pharmaceuticals that 120 million Americans >> depend on. He is definitely being manipulated. Bidens pardons were no more supportable - just exercising rights that POTUS enjoys. Senility towards then end of his term makes it likely Biden was easily manipulated. Interest groups inevitably seek to influence decisions the leader makes - whether US or UK. >> He has already made 100's of Executive Orders and a man with the attention span of a >> goldfish has not come up with those on his own. Among them he has rescinded the 1965 >> Equal Employment Opportunity Act. It is now legal to refuse somebody a job because they >> are (or are not) a woman, black, or Hispanic. Can you imagine this happening under >> Starmer without even any consultation? Let alone that he would have to get it through >> Parliament. This would not happen in the UK under Starmer, or I suspect any other government. The UK favours (excessive) regulation - we define "protected characteristics" have countless court cases creating delay and expense, put often inordinate effort into sidestepping the rules. Personal view - I want the best people to get the right jobs. I abhor discrimination as much as excessive regulation, both of which waste time, effort and human potential. It is a balance that both Trump and the UK have failed to get right. >> I can't imagine how this will play out. My hope is that Republicans will rise up and stop this >>at some point. Meanwhile if it's not too late can we at least not normalize Trump. And pigs might fly. This time Trump is democratically elected with a significant margin. That you don't like him or his policies is entirely legitimate and a complete irrelevancy. |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 18:41
Trump - CGNorwich
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If Trump is a “Doer” I would be grateful to know exactly what he has done apart from inheriting a lot of money. Judged objectively his first term was a failure in nearly every respect including losing the election. |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 19:21
Trump - James Loveless
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"If Trump is a "Doer" I would be grateful to know exactly what he has done apart from inheriting a lot of money. Judged objectively his first term was a failure in nearly every respect including losing the election." It's a matter of perception. He has duped anough Americans into believing (a) that the US economy is in a dire state (it's not), (c) illegal immigration is out of hand (questionable, but a convenient red flag to right-wingers) and (b) that he has got what it takes to set all real and imaginary evils to rights, in order to get himself elected. Even given the naivety of most Americans, that is a considerable feat. And it must be said that the Democrats have a lot to answer for. Biden was never as bad as he was made out to be, but the perception of him (starting with the awful, botched withdrawal from Afghanistan) was negative and he did little to turn that around. He hung in there far too long - indeed, should probably have never been a presidential candidate anyway. And let's remember Trump's 2024 victory was clear but by no means a landslide. (Trump popular vote: 77,302,580; Harris 75,017,613.) Last edited by: James Loveless on Thu 23 Jan 25 at 19:23
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 19:58
Trump - smokie
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Does this help CGN? Many are pretty pointless or due to some other cause but on the face of it quite a number seem reasonably significant. trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/trump-administration-accomplishments/ I feel that it might appear that I'm sticking up for him a little too much but I am really just trying to make sure we aren't a propagator of fake news :-) |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 20:02
Trump - Zero
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>> I feel that it might appear that I'm sticking up for him a little too >> much but I am really just trying to make sure we aren't a propagator of >> fake news :-) has any of thatbeen fact checked? it came trump after all |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 12:01
Trump - Manatee
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>> And pigs might fly. This time Trump is democratically elected with a significant margin. That >> you don't like him or his policies is entirely legitimate and a complete irrelevancy. >> Oh, I don't know. Senator Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) and Senator Susan Collins (R-ME) just voted against Hegseth's nomination, and it's early days yet. Irrelevant? Well it's their train set. 'Democratically elected' yes, but he seeks to undermine the system that put him there. That's why such normalizing statements are inappropriate The most egregious of his actions so far has been to try and scrap birthright citizenship, a cut and dried constitutional right. There is no chance of this happening as he probably knows, but he is clearly testing the system and there will be protracted legal cases around it. Further to relevance, I think we need to heed all of this and see it clearly. The extreme right are in the ascendant all over the world, and they copy from each other. cf. Badenough's recent remarks about means-testing the state pension. That would have been unthinkable to Cameron or Sunak. Fortunately I think Badenough is a poor learner and that idea will be a loser with every age group, as well as pushing even more of heir core voters towards Reform. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 12:05
Trump - Zero
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>> Badenough's recent remarks about means-testing the state pension. Shes a strange one, not good at picking her battles. Fancy alienating your core vote. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 12:44
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> Shes a strange one, not good at picking her battles. Fancy alienating your core vote. Guardian reports that she's been after Labour for a 2019 manifesto comment about the scope for Prevent inquiries to cause communal division while having put her signature to very similar commentary a few years earlier. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 13:24
Trump - Manatee
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Both Badenough and Starmer disappoint me in terms of debating. Although I credit Starmer wiith far more ability and integrity than he gets across with his plodding oratory. I think it would work wonders for growth prospects if he grasped the nettle and made some positive noises soon about EU alignment a future customs union with the EU. I can't think of a single thing that would be as powerful without the inflation risk of tax or rate cuts. Incidentally the 10yr gilt yield has been falling for a week or more. I don't read them, but I'm guessing the Telegraph and Mail haven't reported that. Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 24 Jan 25 at 13:25
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 14:01
Trump - Terry
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>> >> >> Badenough's recent remarks about means-testing the state pension. >> >> Shes a strange one, not good at picking her battles. Fancy alienating your core vote. AIUI the "pension" is already effectively means tested - pension credit, council tax reduction, winter fuel allowance, housing benefit, TV licence all depend on other income or savings. Probably a few more of which I am unaware, Our benefit system is a complex shambles - as the winter fuel debacle clearly demonstrated. It needs reform to turn it into a progressive, accessible, intelligible system with none of the "cliffs" and complexities which currently exist. Not a new problem - if Badenoch intends this, rather than simply tinkering with a base state pension, she is to be applauded. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 14:23
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> AIUI the "pension" is already effectively means tested - pension credit, council tax reduction, winter >> fuel allowance, housing benefit, TV licence all depend on other income or savings. Probably a >> few more of which I am unaware, I'm not sure I understand your point. The new State Pension, in place since 2016, is £221.20 which is actually a tad more than the 'decency threshold' of £218.15 which is the single person rate of Pension Credit. Obviously those on the pre 2016 pension, currently c£170 week, are more likely to get it if they've no occupational or second state pension. I believe there's a move afoot to blend pensioner Housing Benefit, the only variety still available to new applicants, into PC. The objective is that Council HB operations can be ceased once all working age claimants are moved to Universal Credit for which the target is April 2026. Council Tax reduction is rightly means tested though pensioners can get up to 100% reduction whereas those on working age benefits, much less generous than PC have to pay up to 45% of it. WFA and the TV licence were universal benefits for pensioners, or those over a certain age but are now effectively means teasted by being linked to Pension Credit* As regards working age benefits Universal Credit, for all its problems, has removed the cliff edges and sweet spots that were present in Child/Working Tax Credit. *Pension Credit is scandalously under claimed. The biggest benefit gain I've ever got for somebody missing out on benefits was a man who had unclaimed Carer's addition in PC which opened up full Housing Benefit and full CT reduction. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 24 Jan 25 at 14:24
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 12:24
Trump - Terry
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>> I'm not sure I understand your point. >> >> The new State Pension, in place since 2016, is £221.20 which is actually a tad >> more than the 'decency threshold' of £218.15 which is the single person rate of Pension >> Credit. Obviously those on the pre 2016 pension, currently c£170 week, are more likely to >> get it if they've no occupational or second state pension. That pensioner income and other benefits from government are variable depending upon other private income or savings effectively makes it means tested. Seems straightforward to me. >> WFA and the TV licence were universal benefits for pensioners, or those over a certain >> age but are now effectively means teasted by being linked to Pension Credit* Agree - now means tested! >> *Pension Credit is scandalously under claimed. The biggest benefit gain I've ever got for >> somebody missing out on benefits was a man who had unclaimed Carer's addition in PC which >> opened up full Housing Benefit and full CT reduction. I agree it was scandalous. "Cliff edge" benefits are fundamentally flawed - should be progressive. I am not clear whether Reeves realised the extent of the under claiming before implementing the WFA changes or just a complete c0ck up. I also don't understand why charities like Age UK who seek to do good work, apparently did little that was effective for the decades that I assume the issue existed. Still aren't as far as I can see - despite £ billions available to support the elderly. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 22:01
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> That pensioner income and other benefits from government are variable depending upon other private income >> or savings effectively makes it means tested. Seems straightforward to me. OK but the basic State Pension, based on NI etc Conts while in work is a fixed amount. When I get mine in 11 months time it should be the max as above. It's not means tested. Where the State Pension, together with other income and, if there's capital, 'tariff income' are not enough to live on there are means tested top ups. I guess we're looking through different prisms. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 13:58
Trump - Manatee
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It would be ridiculous to means test the basic state pension given it's pretty much the lowest in Europe anyway, and even those with other provision will mostly have planned around it. Unfortunately the uncomfortable truth is that with the other necessary supplements pensions cost a lot, and the proportion who are pensioners will be increasing for some time. I feel I've done my bit now, or at least my children have, given the inclusion of pension pots for IHT will alone cost them a 6 figure sum if I fall off the twig in the near future. I intended that to be part pf the estate if it doesn't get spent on care costs. I simply don't believe that IHT is only paid by 4% of people. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 14:03
Trump - sooty123
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>> >> I simply don't believe that IHT is only paid by 4% of people. >> Why's that? |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 15:07
Trump - Manatee
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>> >> >> >> I simply don't believe that IHT is only paid by 4% of people. >> >> >> >> >> Why's that? Well, they've got a figure from somewhere but it's presumably out of date. House prices really. Given there's no IHT on assets left to a spouse I suppose the starting point would be 50% anyway so maybe it really is nearer 8% of households which sounds a bit more credible. I suppose I live in a bubble i.e. a moderately expensive housing area, which probably distorts the view. And I also tend to assume people have savings because that's always been my mindset. That might well be a bad assumption. I think including pension pots will materially increase it. It's suddenly made it a much bigger issue for us. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 15:31
Trump - sooty123
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> Well, they've got a figure from somewhere but it's presumably out of date. House prices >> really. Given there's no IHT on assets left to a spouse I suppose the starting >> point would be 50% anyway so maybe it really is nearer 8% of households which >> sounds a bit more credible. >> >> I suppose I live in a bubble i.e. a moderately expensive housing area, which probably >> distorts the view. And I also tend to assume people have savings because that's always >> been my mindset. That might well be a bad assumption. >> >> I think including pension pots will materially increase it. It's suddenly made it a much >> bigger issue for us. I think we all live in our surroundings and think it's normal. No one in my family has to worry about iht, all well below the threshold. I don't any of them has ever paid it or had to worry about it. When it comes to savings across the country i remember articles like this. One in four adults currently have less than £500 in savings as households. Two in five have less than £2,000 in savings. www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-13028919/One-four-adults-currently-500-savings.html That's not me having a go :) just something i remember (similar stats) from an article a few years ago. Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 25 Jan 25 at 15:32
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 14:10
Trump - Zero
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>> I simply don't believe that IHT is only paid by 4% of people. Its a threshold only met by home owners, plenty of ways round it, I wouldn't be surprised by that number. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 15:10
Trump - Kevin
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>The most egregious of his actions so far has been to try and scrap birthright >citizenship, a cut and dried constitutional right. Cut and dried? There are constant legal challenges to how The Constitution is interpreted. The Second Ammendment to The Constitution purportedly guaranteed the right of any citizen to bear arms but 18 U.S.C. § 922 removed that right for anyone convicted of certain crimes and imposed age limits contrary to equal rights protections. The Fourteenth Ammendment purportedly guarantees birthright citizenship but it is already restricted and does not apply to the children of diplomats, vessels within territorial waters or anyone not 'subject to the jurisdiction' of the US, which rather oddly includes children of Indians subject to tribal laws. It is therefore arguable that undocumented aliens are outside of the law and not entitled to claim the 14th. It's only 'cut and dried' to those who want to take a poke at him. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 15:37
Trump - Zero
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>> The Second Ammendment to The Constitution purportedly guaranteed the right of any citizen to bear >> arms Ah well there you go, it doesn't, only by modern interpretation and legal challenge. 2nd amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. It was intended to limit the power of Congress to organize, arm, and discipline the federal militia, and has been later interpreted as an individual's right to carry and use arms for personal self-defense, as much by lawlessness and availability of arms starting with the wild west, than by design. This interpretation has survived many legal challenges, and due to the fact its deep in the fabric of many states, always will. At the end of the day, the (trump dominated) US supreme court justices will decide if the 14th amendment applies in Trumps executive order. If they go against him congress will have to vote on it and he will fall at that hurdle. In truth, it does seem a rediculous "right" and not at all suited to modern life. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 24 Jan 25 at 15:38
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 16:17
Trump - Kevin
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>It was intended to limit the power of Congress.. There have been loads of legal argument over what/who the 2nd was meant to protect and there is still no accepted interpretation over what was intended. www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-2/second-amendment-doctrine-and-practice The point is, virtually nothing is cut and dried in The Constitution and it can be overridden. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 16:00
Trump - Manatee
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Shirley, they won't be undocumented aliens if they were born in the USA? >> It's only 'cut and dried' to those who want to take a poke at him. Which would seem to include a Republican-appointed judge. It was his opinion I was relying on, not mine. Do you think it will change? |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 18:11
Trump - Kevin
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>Shirley, they won't be undocumented aliens if they were born in the USA? By 'undocumented' the yanks mean without a valid residence permit. According to Border Force, women are risking themselves and their unborns to cross the border illegally and are only documented when they turn up at one of the migrant centers. >Which would seem to include a Republican-appointed judge. It was his opinion I was relying on, not mine. There are plenty of Republicans who will disagree with Trump on one issue or another just like there are some Democrats who will secretly applaud some of his policies. He's not a likeable character and comes out with stuff that sounds crazy at times. If you can work out he actually means rather than what come out of his mouth it helps. >Do you think it will change? I think the automatic birthright needs to change but he's like a bull in a china shop at the moment so he's going to get some b loody-minded opposition. The trick cyclists must be scratching their heads over Trump. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 19:26
Trump - Manatee
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>> The trick cyclists must be scratching their heads over Trump. I'm not convinced he's mentally ill or has dementia. He is however extremely dishonest and thoroughly devious. The more I see of him, the more I think it's just obsession with money and power, plus the cunning and ruthlessness to get after it. The populism is a sham. He has no interest in doing anything for the American people. His cabinet shows he is not serious about public service. He has mostly picked the worst people, not the best. The most craven, and often laughably unqualified. He's certainly a narcissist but so are most of the people on Love Island. The dishonesty is ingrained. I believe this because he lies even when he doesn't need to. I don't think he will be taken away in a strait jacket. Hopefully his criminality will get him in the end. He is destroying the GOP and some of them must be bright enough to realise the only way to rehabilitate the party will be to get rid of Trump. I hope. But I am not a trick cyclist. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 19:57
Trump - Kevin
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>I'm not convinced he's mentally ill or has dementia. He is however extremely >dishonest and thoroughly devious. It's neither of those but there's something that drives him hard. Maybe it's having to deal with the dishonest and devious Democrats that does it? >..The populism is a sham. He has no interest in doing anything for the >American people. I don't know where you get that from. One week in and he's already doing what he said he would do, what he was elected to do, and he hasn't done anything he said he wouldn't do. What more do you expect? >His cabinet shows he is not serious about public service. He has mostly picked the >worst people, not the best. The most craven, and often laughably unqualified. He's done exactly what other political leaders do. He's appointing his own people. People who he trusts and hopes will get the job done. Does the shower of carp in Starmer's cabinet show that he isn't serious about public service? >He is destroying the GOP and some of them must be bright enough to realise the only >way to rehabilitate the party will be to get rid of Trump. Now you are being ridiculous. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 20:44
Trump - Manatee
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>>Now you are being ridiculous. I really don't think so, but this is uncharted territory. Of course they know he should have been put beyond the pale in 2015/16. Have you looked into Hegseth? They are riding his coat tails because of his popularity. Most must despise him privately, those who aren't as venal as him or thick as sheet. They won't use the 25th Amendment. That would finish them anyway. But they will get him at some point IMO. Apparently Colombia has refused to allow 2 planeloads of deportees to land. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 21:12
Trump - sooty123
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>> Apparently Colombia has refused to allow 2 planeloads of deportees to land. >> Appears trump has threatened them tariffs, which has worked and Colombia have agreed to the flights. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 21:17
Trump - Zero
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>> Appears trump has threatened them tariffs, which has worked and Colombia have agreed to the >> flights. Indeed, don't want tariffs on cocaine now do we. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 21:23
Trump - Kevin
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>Of course they know he should have been put beyond the pale in 2015/16. Have you >..looked into Hegseth? Only what I've read in the media. The left wing media are mud slinging but right of centre are saying none of the accusations have actually been proven. My gut feeling is that he's a creep but my opinion doesn't count. It's the American public who'll decide. >They are riding his coat tails because of his popularity. Most must despise him >privately, those who aren't as venal as him or thick as sheet. I am not privy to what they think of him other than he won every swing state for them, won the popular vote and has given them the power to put their policies into practice. >They won't use the 25th Amendment. That would finish them anyway. But they >will get him at some point IMO. Stabbing a popular leader in the back never turns out well. Ask Sunak and the Tories. >Apparently Colombia has refused to allow 2 planeloads of deportees to land. A pointless virtue signalling gesture that has backfired spectacularly. |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 20:54
Trump - Bromptonaut
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His mother was from Tong on the Isle of Lewis: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008m4z/mathair-a-chinn-suidhe-trumps-mother Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 23 Jan 25 at 20:54
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 21:19
Trump - Zero
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| at the end of the day, unless you were a native indian, every American is an immigrant |
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New Thu 23 Jan 25 21:42
Trump - zippy
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>> at the end of the day, unless you were a native indian, every American is >> an immigrant >> And considered an immigrant in their own country... apnews.com/article/idaho-racist-outburst-senator-candidate-forum-49d9e3c56b056d8406c35b914a121ae9 |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 09:12
Trump - CGNorwich
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| So ultimately is everyone in the world unless after their family evolved in the Great Rift Valley they decided, unlike their relatives, to stay put. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 09:18
Trump - bathtub tom
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| I hear he's de-classifying some of the JFK assassination files. Could reveal some interesting information as they'd been hidden from public view. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 09:29
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> I hear he's de-classifying some of the JFK assassination files. Could reveal some interesting information >> as they'd been hidden from public view. I suspect the content will be mundane and the reasons not to disclose equally mundane like protecting anonymity in certain circs. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 11:29
Trump - Zero
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>> >> I hear he's de-classifying some of the JFK assassination files. Could reveal some interesting >> information >> >> as they'd been hidden from public view. >> >> I suspect the content will be mundane and the reasons not to disclose equally mundane >> like protecting anonymity in certain circs. Its a non event. Even is everything is revealed there will still be claims of cover up. Thats conspiracy theory rule no 1. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 11:04
Trump - zippy
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>> So ultimately is everyone in the world unless after their family evolved in the Great >> Rift Valley they decided, unlike their relatives, to stay put. >> But generally they are not ignorant enough to tell indigenous people to feck off! |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 12:35
Trump - CGNorwich
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“But generally they are not ignorant enough to tell indigenous people to feck off!“ No they didn’t bother in the Paleolithic Just hit them over the head with a rock. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 13:08
Trump - Zero
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>> No they didn’t bother in the Paleolithic Just hit them over the head with a >> rock. Trump says America invented the rock and China is using it to spy on Americans. |
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 14:17
Trump - Terry
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>> 2m years ago the Great Rift Valley was the world. Humanity slowly developed the concept of tribes, territories, nations, and even continents when they realised oceans weren't almost limitless wastes. Nations change - Cornwall, Scotland, Yorkshire etc were once independent entities and many would wish that were the case again. So in some ways nations are tribes - communities linked by social, economic, religious, blood, culture etc. To trivialise it - creating rules for the admission to new members of a tribe is no different to satisfying the golf club, freemasons, clergy, professional (doctor, lawyer etc) committees you are worthy of membership, Last edited by: Terry on Fri 24 Jan 25 at 14:18
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New Fri 24 Jan 25 11:27
Trump - Zero
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>> So ultimately is everyone in the world unless after their family evolved in the Great >> Rift Valley they decided, unlike their relatives, to stay put. Well if we wish to go that far back, I think it makes my point a more valid one. American immigration is very current on that calendar. Like yesterday. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 02:49
Trump - zippy
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It seems that a US military plane carrying illegal immigrants for repatriation has been refused permission to fly over Mexico and other South American countries. A bit more planning and a little less rhetoric eh, Donald! www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/so-little-planning-experts-mock-trump-after-mexico-refuses-to-let-deportation-flight-land/ar-AA1xPjXW |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 04:07
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> A bit more planning and a little less rhetoric eh, Donald! As the UK has found rhetoric and reality with deportations are different places. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 12:26
Trump - Terry
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| Parachutes - a Donald solution obviously. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 13:20
Trump - sooty123
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| Reading that article it seems Mexico refused dip clearance so they flew around their airspace, the flight wasn't stopped. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 14:18
Trump - Zero
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Repatriating illegals is not easy. If a military flight or charter they will need flight clearance and landing rights, Illegals on board will need valid passports/id cards/citizenship at port of entry to disembark, and at the end of the day there are only so many plane seats available. Either way I bet the service is better than Ryan Air, and the airport is actually near where the ticket claims it is. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 14:36
Trump - Zero
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| Apparently if Trump claims Canada, the French are going to claim Louisiana, and the Spanish will take new Mexico |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 19:04
Trump - legacylad
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| And Quebec ? |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 19:31
Trump - tyrednemotional
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And we're going to send a gunboat to claim back the remainder of N America. (Well, that's if we can find one that works) |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 11:45
Trump - sherlock47
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| Interesting article in the Sunday Times re Greenland. Apparently the UK has pre-emptive rights to buy it - ahead of the USA. Since Denmark apparently contributes only 500m £ annually to support the small population it could be a good investment looking at the potential oil and mineral reserves? I suspect the Greenlanders would rather remain as part of 'Europe' than become a 52 state, unless somebody orchestrates a Farage/Johnson style campaign. |
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New Sat 25 Jan 25 20:41
Trump - CGNorwich
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>> Apparently if Trump claims Canada, the French are going to claim Louisiana, and the Spanish >> will take new Mexico >> Russia might like to have Alaska back, sold to the USA for 2 cents an acre in 1867. I'm sure a good lawyer could find grounds. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 07:22
Trump - sooty123
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news.sky.com/story/trump-praises-starmer-for-doing-very-good-job-so-far-and-plans-to-call-him-within-24-hours-13296872 Seems to think well of the PM, for today anyway. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 11:46
Trump - sherlock47
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>> news.sky.com/story/trump-praises-starmer-for-doing-very-good-job-so-far-and-plans-to-call-him-within-24-hours-13296872 >> >> Seems to think well of the PM, for today anyway. >> Well, at least for the time his mouth was was open? |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 12:38
Trump - zippy
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>> news.sky.com/story/trump-praises-starmer-for-doing-very-good-job-so-far-and-plans-to-call-him-within-24-hours-13296872 >> >> Seems to think well of the PM, for today anyway. >> Probably thinks Starmer is Stalin. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 12:47
Trump - tyrednemotional
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>> >> Probably thinks Starmer is Stalin. >> Well, The Daily Telegraph does..... |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 12:52
Trump - Terry
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What Trump says may be entirely disconnected from his brain. But he does know how to flatter, and the object of his flattery (in this case Starmer) will happily interpret it as presidential praise. Subsequent actions are probably a better indicator of reality!! |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 17:34
Trump - Manatee
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>>the object of his flattery (in this case Starmer) will happily interpret it as presidential praise. I'm sure he's brighter than that. He'll bank it publicly, but any fule no Trump only 'likes' people while they are doing what he wants. And Trump is absolutely terrible at faking sincerity. He actually cares for nobody but himself, I'm sure of that. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 25 08:45
Trump - tyrednemotional
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>> >> And Trump is absolutely terrible at faking sincerity. He actually cares for nobody but himself, >> I'm sure of that. >> John Crace in the Guardian was probably about right.... ;-) www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/27/john-crace-imagining-starmer-first-call-with-trump |
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New Tue 28 Jan 25 09:39
Trump - Kevin
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>John Crace in the Guardian was probably about right.... ;-) Breaking News! Starmer orders inquiry into leak at GCHQ. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 12:58
Trump - zippy
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Sacking Govt. Employees.... Apparently he sacked the heads of some form of oversight department. They have written back saying he doesn't have the authority to do that and it needs authorisation from Congress. Made me chuckle. The thing with Greenland... doesn't he / his disciples see that's not far off what Russia is doing with Ukraine? One worrying post I saw some time ago suggested more US agents / spies died / disappeared when he was in power and after he met with Putin and asked his interpretor to leave the room than any other president. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 21:05
Trump - enabling lunatics - zippy
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billstatus.ls.state.ms.us/documents/2025/html/HB/1400-1499/HB1484IN.htm A proposed law in Mississipi to claim a bounty on illegal immigrants and illegal immigrants to get life in prison without possibility of parole. I don't suspect it will pass but remember the USA does make prisoners work in private prisons for no pay - so a nice slave labour workforce. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 21:11
Trump - enabling lunatics - Zero
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>> I don't suspect it will pass but remember the USA does make prisoners work in >> private prisons for no pay - so a nice slave labour workforce. You want prison to pay for being in it? You'll be demanding a pension for them next. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 21:24
Trump - enabling lunatics - Manatee
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What a vile country it will become if this continues. Turning the population into informers like the old GDR. AFAIK the majority of undocumented immigrants work and pay tax, and aren't criminals because they want to stay below the radar. Boggling. www.mississippifreepress.org/mississippi-bounty-hunter-bill-to-go-after-undocumented-immigrants-faces-legal-and-political-hurdles-experts-say/ |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 21:33
Trump - enabling lunatics - zippy
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I suspect a watered down version may be next...still vile. But then when the dear leader is promoting ethnic cleansing what do you expect.... www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07kpjyzgllo |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 22:32
Trump - enabling lunatics - Terry
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Israel Palestine tensions interspersed with bits of conflict have been unresolved for 75 years. If nothing changes, it will repeat in 10-20 years - Israel will defend its right to exist, and conditions in Gaza will likely allow resistance to fester with occasional violent outbreaks. It could take a decade or more for full re-construction, and £50-100bn. For the next few years Gaza will be a squalid mess with limited basic services - sewage, clean water, reliable power etc. Change and compromise is needed from all players - Israel, Palestinians, Arab neighbours, US, UN, and UK. Huge funds will be required to rebuild infrastructures. These are non-trivial challenges. Trump with a predictable lack of subtlety has put forward a very partial solution to a bit of the problem. Rejection out of hand will signal an unwillingness of those involved to change and compromise. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 22:02
Trump - enabling lunatics - Kevin
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Jeez, do you lot believe every piece of carp put in front of you? Immigration status is federal. Our cheapskate govt. expect us to do it for free. www.imsallegations.homeoffice.gov.uk/start And Uncle Don is talking about bulldozing Gaza and rebuilding - not sending in the firing squads. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 22:06
Trump - enabling lunatics - Manatee
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>>Jeez, do you lot believe every piece of carp put in front of you? Immigration status is federal. I won't take offence at that, but you do seem rather credulous yourself where Trump is concerned! |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 22:21
Trump - enabling lunatics - Kevin
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>I won't take offence at that, but you do seem rather credulous yourself where Trump is concerned! It wasn't intended to be offensive but take it however you like. And my thoughts and opinions of Trump are just as valid as yours, they just come without the insults. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 22:30
Trump - enabling lunatics - zippy
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>> www.imsallegations.homeoffice.gov.uk/start >> >> And Uncle Don is talking about bulldozing Gaza and rebuilding - And who do you think will be allowed to stay in the new luxury Gaza? The current locala wouldn't be able to afford it. >>Immigration status is federal Yes but Mississipi isn't looking to change status, but sanctions against them. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 22:54
Trump - enabling lunatics - Kevin
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>And who do you think will be allowed to stay in the new luxury Gaza? >The current locala wouldn't be able to afford it. How has a perfectly reasonable suggestion that it would probably be quicker to flatten what's left and rebuild suddenly become a 'luxury Gaza'? >>Immigration status is federal >Yes but Mississipi isn't looking to change status, but sanctions against them. All the state can do is possibly arrest and notify federal authorities. I'm not sure if they can even detain without notifying. |
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New Sun 26 Jan 25 23:07
Trump - enabling lunatics - Terry
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>> And Uncle Don is talking about bulldozing Gaza and rebuilding - >> >> And who do you think will be allowed to stay in the new luxury Gaza? >> The current locala wouldn't be able to afford it. >> >> Immigration status is federal >> >> Yes but Mississipi isn't looking to change status, but sanctions against them. IMHO an effective way to stop Gaza Israel violence is to ensure Gaza has schools, healthcare, working infrastructures (energy, water, sewage, roads), decent governance and law enforcement, decent housing, jobs etc. This would provide Gazans with certainty and futures which they have not had for many decades (or ever?), and would hopefully be increasingly disinclined to risk to settle old scores. It is entirely legitimate for a leadership, democratically elected to control immigration, to ensure policies are enacted to deliver that promised. The most effective action is to make it unattractive even to try. Illegal immigration will then decline towards zero - issues associated with deportation avoided. There should be a clear separation of how the democratic process should work from whether immigration is good or bad, whether there is a moral duty, etc. I would note that UN asylum rules date from 1951 - 73 years ago. The world is now a very different place. |
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New Mon 27 Jan 25 09:54
Trump - enabling lunatics - Zero
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Trouble with trump is, he thinks and speaks at the same time. In fact most of the time he speaks before he thinks. So. "the place is wrecked, we need to move the people out, other arab states must take them" No context, no further clarification, no follow up, SO He could have meant "temporarily house them elsewhere, rebuild the place properly, allow them to move back to a newly rebuilt land"* or "permanently move them to other Arab countries" Of course Netenyahoo and the ultra radical religious loonies he had to gather around him to cling to power have seized on meaning number two, as many have them have had designs on the Mediterranean coast, and expanding Israel that direction. Of course all the IDF has achieved with its war crimes is to ensure there will be whole new generations of many many more Israel hating terrorists and fighters. * out of the rubble, all Trump can see is new Condo's, Casinos, Multiple MareLagos spread up and down the coast line. |
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New Mon 27 Jan 25 10:04
Trump - enabling lunatics - tyrednemotional
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>> >> * out of the rubble, all Trump can see is new Condo's, Casinos, Multiple MareLagos >> spread up and down the coast line. >> Having supplied and profited from all the US-supplied ordnance that devastated the place in the first instance, I'm sure he'll have eyes on the States following it up by also profiting from any rebuild. :-( |
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New Mon 27 Jan 25 10:53
Trump - enabling lunatics - Zero
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| And there you have Trumps weakness in a nutshell. Promise him stuff on a level he understands, and you can easily string him along for another 4 years. |
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New Mon 27 Jan 25 14:03
Trump - enabling lunatics - Terry
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Easy to be critical of Trump - possibly justifiably. But he is a lone voice it would seem - the rest of the world seems happy to stand by and do 50d all. Relying upon the UN, US, UK EU, other Arab states seems a triumph of hope over reality. Stopping future conflicts and middle east stability needs new and different solutions. The rest of the worlds leaders will, no doubt, soon start arguing about who pays, who compromises, etc rather than solving the problem. It is not Trump (however misguided and simplistic) who deserves criticism, it is the mostly self serving inadequates the rest of us elect as leaders. |
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New Mon 27 Jan 25 17:49
Trump - enabling lunatics - James Loveless
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"It is not Trump (however misguided and simplistic) who deserves criticism, it is the mostly self serving inadequates the rest of us elect as leaders." No - sorry - that will not do. Trump does deserve criticism, for his lack of moral perspective, his flouting of the rules of law and of democracy and his poor governance, if his previous presidency is anything to go by. And it takes a pretty egregious individual to get himself elected after collecting multiple convictions for, in effect, dishonesty. We could argue for ever about whether the rest of the world's leaders are as bad as you say; doubtless some are. But it's a devious piece of reasoning that suggests that perceived dissatisfaction with other leaders somehow means we should support what Trump represents and cherry-pick the bits we like while overlooking everything else. The man is totally appalling on every level that matters and the fact that he has an agenda and sense of purpose does not excuse the rest of what he is. I'm already picking up from various sources idea that, maybe, Trump is not that bad after all. Oh dear. However, the only reason the rest of the world has to deal with him is that a clear (though not that large) majority of US voters wanted him, at least part of the reason for which was that Biden was perceived (not entirely fairly) to have made such a mess of things. Last edited by: James Loveless on Mon 27 Jan 25 at 17:51
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New Mon 27 Jan 25 19:01
Trump - enabling lunatics - Manatee
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Trump's golden measure is the stock market by which yardstick Biden, or at least his administration, did a brilliant job. He left with inflation under control and a growing economy. Not many countries are managing that. And a lot of good stuff was done. The big thing to set against that is the ballooning deficit. I stand by my belief that Trump does not care about anybody else, especially the kind of ordinary people who support him. For example he removed negotiated caps on the prices of commonly used medications that many who need them simply could not afford, immediately on accession. He is as you imply being normalised. Getting used to him being there doesn't make him any better. His only good feature is that anybody with a mind to can see easily enough what he is. As to who facilitates him, it's the GOP. Leaders of other countries really have no choice than to humour him, Starmer for example would not be helping us if he told Trump exactly what he thinks of him. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 25 09:30
Trump - enabling lunatics - Kevin
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Trump's golden measure is the stock market... The only part of that post I would question is your asserion that he's removed price caps on meds. If you are talking about him rescinding Biden's 14087 order then that does no such thing. Existing price caps negotiated by Medicare/Medicaid are unaffected and ongoing negotiations will extend the list. finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-scrapped-a-proposed-2-drug-program-for-seniors-but-why-181219100.html I think part of the reason it was rescinded was that Biden's order also charged the Dept of Health with investigating 'new payment methods' and to 'streamline' FDA approval for new drugs. Republicans and Democrats have been throwing rocks at each other over whether those terms actually meant subsidies for pharma companies and a watering down of safety studies. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 25 11:22
Trump - enabling lunatics - Manatee
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| I'm obliged to you, I shall dig further. |
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New Thu 30 Jan 25 18:21
Trump - Washington Crash - zippy
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Trump is blaming the crash on disabled employees. There isn't even any details as to the cause yet. Sheesh |
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New Thu 30 Jan 25 21:42
Trump - Washington Crash - Fullchat
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| Pure speculation but maybe the helicopter pilot focused on the 3rd aircraft rather than the one that was on the collision course. |
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New Thu 30 Jan 25 21:46
Trump - Washington Crash - zippy
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>> Pure speculation but maybe the helicopter pilot focused on the 3rd aircraft rather than the >> one that was on the collision course. >> Perhaps. I was wondering if the aircraft was in a blind spot like behind a window pillar. This has been the cause of accidents before where aircraft are closing at an angle |
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New Thu 30 Jan 25 21:59
Trump - Washington Crash - Fullchat
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| Should be 2 pilots in a Black Hawk. But always a possibility. |
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New Thu 30 Jan 25 22:03
Trump - Washington Crash - tyrednemotional
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>> Pure speculation but maybe the helicopter pilot focused on the 3rd aircraft rather than the >> one that was on the collision course. >> I had the same thought. An easy thing to do once ones attention gets "fixed". |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 00:43
Trump - Washington Crash - Terry
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The final approach to a major international airport would be unambiguously classified as a no-fly zone for all other air traffic. AIUI the regional jet was using the normal approach. I would also expect that normal flight rules for helicopters on approach would be very explicitly designed to avoid mid air conflicts. The accident investigation may throw up other causes - but the helicopter was evidently in the wrong place. Most likely causes - pilot error, possible nav system malfunction, or acting on flawed air traffic control. |
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New Thu 30 Jan 25 21:57
Trump - Washington Crash - CGNorwich
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| he says the FAA was "actively recruiting workers who suffer severe intellectual disabilities, psychiatric problems and other mental and physical conditions". |
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New Thu 30 Jan 25 21:59
Trump - Washington Crash - zippy
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| He'd say there were blind air traffic controllers if it suited him. |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 01:10
Trump - Washington Crash - Terry
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>> He'd say there were blind air traffic controllers if it suited him. You may be right. The UK the Equality Act 2010, defines are 9 protected characteristics including age, disability, gender, marriage, pregnancy, race, religion, sex, and sexual orientation. Government departments and public companies are under ever increasing pressure to monitor and report upon these issues. Recruitment and promotion policies often positively discriminate to hit targets for minorities. Efforts to avoid discrimination are to be applauded - but be under no illusion this means business and government may compromise performance in favour of equality. However there are some jobs for which the best is the only right strategy - those where a disability could compromise performance and pose a material risk to the general public. Included would be airline pilots, bus and train drivers, senior medical staff (doctors and consultants), HGV drivers (potentially dangerous vehicles) and (yes) air traffic controllers. Whether they were in any way responsible for the crash needs the outcome of an accident enquiry - not a shoot from the hip criticism. |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 09:10
Trump - Washington Crash - Bromptonaut
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>> Government departments and public companies are under ever increasing pressure to monitor and report upon >> these issues. Recruitment and promotion policies often positively discriminate to hit targets for minorities. I'm not saying nobody incompetent has ever been recruited but I don't think the UK has ever had real positive discrimination. What the public sector has done is actively work to ensure barriers to people with protected characteristics are removed and real discrimination eliminated. In 35years in the Civil Service I've only been on a recruitment panel once; roped in as the third hand. One candidate had a promising background and a good application but had congenital disability meaning he had limited mobility, particularly where stairs were involved. The admin team was on the first floor. The panel chair asked him several questions based on his disability and more or less mocked him about how he thought he'd manage if the lift was kaput (as it often was). That was in 1986. Around it time it was also 'received wisdom' that women from Asian backgrounds were, by nature, too quiet shy and perhaps even submissive to manage a large group of mainly men. I'm absolutely confident that discrimination , usually far less blatant than that above and often unthinking, deprived the service of far more good people than we got shysters placed there solely for their background. |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 09:34
Trump - Washington Crash - tyrednemotional
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If implemented in the correct spirit, there's a huge difference between positive discrimination and DEI. The former might lead to appointees with less than ideal qualification, the latter should remove "prejudices" against appropriately qualified people. |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 09:56
Trump - Washington Crash - Zero
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>> If implemented in the correct spirit, there's a huge difference between positive discrimination and DEI. Not in trump world, they both have D in the title, so must be the same. |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 10:09
Trump - Washington Crash - tyrednemotional
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| ...he'll probably choose to ignore any evidence from the black boxes (though, as they are in reality orange, he might feel some affinity). ;-) |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 10:27
Trump - Washington Crash - Zero
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>> ...he'll probably choose to ignore any evidence from the black boxes (though, as they are >> in reality orange, he might feel some affinity). ;-) Well he cant called it by its name, Flight Data Recorder, because FDR was a democrat. Well I suppose he could blame it in some way. |
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New Thu 30 Jan 25 22:02
Trump - Washington Crash - tyrednemotional
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>> he says the FAA was "actively recruiting workers who suffer severe intellectual disabilities, psychiatric >> problems and other mental and physical conditions". >> ...rather like him recruiting his cabinet... |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 00:59
Trump - Washington Crash - zippy
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>> >> ...rather like him recruiting his cabinet... >> Lol |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 09:23
Trump - Washington Crash - Zero
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And here we have Trumps greatest weakness exposed in a nutshell. Shooting from the hip, before thinking, attempting to double down, justify policy on every occasion he has national focus. damage is done to his cause when its at a completely inappropriate time, and on occasions that can be demonstrably not the case. He is trying to justify things in his head in public, and head isnt equipped enough to cope with mouth at the same time. I love the juxtapostion. "Mr president, is it safe to fly". "Yes it is" Then explain its not safe to fly because Biden filled ATC with black disabled lesbian thickos. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 31 Jan 25 at 09:23
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 09:30
Trump - Washington Crash - tyrednemotional
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>> >> Then explain its not safe to fly because Biden filled ATC with black disabled lesbian >> thickos. >> Though, to be fair, it's the dwarves that can't see over the console..... |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 10:10
Trump - Washington Crash - zippy
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>> "Mr president, is it safe to fly". "Yes it is" >> >> Then explain its not safe to fly because Biden filled ATC with black disabled lesbian >> thickos. >> And now dwarves apparently. Perhaps their chairs weren't high enough to see the screens!? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14343385/donald-trump-plane-crash-white-house.html |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 10:17
Trump - Washington Crash - tyrednemotional
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| When, as it inevitably will, Hollywood decides to turn it all into a movie (a la Sully) Warwick Davies is going to be a shoe-in for the villain. |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 10:45
Trump - Washington Crash - Terry
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If he had bothered to look at the FAA website he would have seen that air traffic controllers are subject to what superficially seems like reasonably demanding routine medical and psychological tests. Whether the same applies to other with less direct safety roles (eg: admin or IT support) is doubtful - I fully expect that efforts to limit discrimination and provide opportunities for minorities is entirely (and rightly) active. |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 10:49
Trump - Washington Crash - zippy
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| Sorry tyrednemotional, I was half awake when I posted the above - not realising that you had got there before me! |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 15:23
Trump - Washington Crash - tyrednemotional
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...small hands, long tie, short memory? The following from Wikipedia, but the official US Gov reference still checks out OK, and the Washington Post seem to have picked up on it. In support of DEI hiring during the first term of Donald Trump, the Office of Civil Rights of the Federal Aviation Authority FAA on Thursday, April 11, 2019 announced a pilot program to help prepare people with disabilities for careers in air traffic operations, which identifies specific opportunities for people with targeted disabilities, to facilitate their entry into a more "diverse and inclusive" workforce in a standard public opening for air traffic controller jobs at the Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) with the potential to be appointed to a temporary ATCS position at the FAA Academy. |
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New Fri 31 Jan 25 19:06
Trump - Washington Crash - Kevin
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A breakdown of ATC comms running up to the crash. Black Hawk requested visual separation. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfgllf1L9_4 >In support of DEI hiring during the first term of Donald Trump,.. I don't think he has a problem with the idea of diversity, just the way it's been implemented by some depts. I think that the fact that he couldn't suppress his attack mode at a disaster briefing is more worrying than his memory loss. |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 11:59
Trump - Washington Crash - Zero
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>> A breakdown of ATC comms running up to the crash. Black Hawk requested visual separation. Black hawk Pilot error. 100% |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 12:02
Trump - Washington Crash - CGNorwich
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| Looks likely. That will suit Trump. He has a big down on the Military. |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 12:04
Trump - Washington Crash - Zero
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| He might have trouble, the pilot was a white male republican, cant blame military diversity. |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 16:06
Trump - Washington Crash - Manatee
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As an ignorant armchair 'expert', everything seems to have been wrong with this. The controller did not have to accept the request for visual separation. He/she did so of course because it was an allowed procedure at the location and had presumably been done many times before. The Black Hawk was supposed to be at 200 feet, the CRJ at that point was supposed to be at 350 feet AIUI. That seems to be too close even if both were were compliant. The rules there allow helis to use the crossing route while a/c are on approach to runway 33. They were doing visual separation at night in a brightly lit city with other aircraft on approach (it's a distinct possibility the BH pilot was observing one of those). The controller appearing to be managing both the heli traffic and the landing passenger aircraft. Did he/she have time to watch the radar? At the very least the aircrafts concerned could have been told they appeared to be approaching each other. They were never supposed to be reliant on vertical separation. The ATC tape is apparently full of non-standard communication and partial readbacks from the pilots. There seem likely to be a lot of recommendations to come in the report. Among them it would be surprising if there wasn't one to the effect that the final approach to 33 and transits of the heli route should not be allowed at the same time. Any pilot or sailor knows that if two ships or aircraft, each travelling in a straight line at its own constant speed, are on a collision course then each will appear to be on a constant bearing from the other - in other words with no lateral movement. Moving objects are easier to pick up than static ones. So the hardest traffic to see is potentially the aircraft on a collision course. Trump's remarks were typically idiotic. Perhaps somewhere, sometime, an inferior candidate has been given a job to fill a quota. If so then that should not have happened. But has it never occurred to these people that there might also have been many inferior candidates given jobs simply because, for example, they were white, male and under 50? Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 1 Feb 25 at 16:09
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 16:29
Trump - Washington Crash - tyrednemotional
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>> As an ignorant armchair 'expert'........ Would you like to stand for President? (you might have got in, but they've withdrawn the DEI ticket now, rather too late one might think). |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 17:29
Trump - Washington Crash - Manatee
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>> Would you like to stand for President? (you might have got in, but they've withdrawn >> the DEI ticket now, rather too late one might think). I would not. But if it was thrust upon me, I'd start by co-opting the best people I could find. That's the most glaring proof of Trump's unsuitability, he does the opposite. |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 16:34
Trump - Washington Crash - Bromptonaut
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There is an ongoing class action against the FAA concerning recruitment practices/processes that were changed for, amongst other reasons Diversity and Equality. www.pprune.org/rumours-news/663790-sweeping-changes-hiring-practices-faa.html I can't make any sense of whether the plaintiffs have a real argument or whether they're white males whose privileges have been stepped on. |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 17:29
Trump - Washington Crash - zippy
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This DEI thing is annoying... I have always seen it as a way to encourage candidates from non-standard backgrounds - apologies for the phrasing - to be aware that they can apply for the job. For example, a lad or lass of whatever creed or colour from a broken background and poor school who is bright as a button might not consider themselves eligible to apply for a certain role but if they are as smart and as capable as those "privileged white males" as Brompt. puts it, then they should be given every opportunity to apply and if they are the best candidate, then they should get the job. I have been on boards / panels as the tech question asker, where the senior interviewers put down candidates as soon as they left the room for the most inane and bigoted reasons. Opportunities to employ class candidates were lost because of hairstyle, skin colour (yes), style of suit, colour of shoes and sex to name a few- it's an all male team, we can't employ a woman etc. etc. etc! One director, an ef*ing pillock, went mad because we hired someone without a thumb - noticed on a handshake. The person was brilliant at their job! Last edited by: zippy on Sat 1 Feb 25 at 17:31
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 17:36
Trump - Washington Crash - Manatee
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I doubt if you will all believe this, but I worked out of an office in the early 80's when the office manager recruited for one of the clerical positions. I saw the candidates coming in and out for interviews and chatted with them as they were shown around. The one that stood out to me didn't get the job. The OM actually wrote on the application "Unsuitable - coloured". The people who dismiss 'DEI' forget those times. |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 17:41
Trump - Washington Crash - zippy
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>>coloured... Yep. Not one black person in the entire division of a major UK bank that I worked in or the one before. Some who's heritage was from the Indian subcontinent, but few and far between. >>The people who dismiss 'DEI' forget those times. Manatee, I am not sure that they do, and that's the issue. Last edited by: zippy on Sat 1 Feb 25 at 17:42
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 18:56
Trump - Washington Crash - James Loveless
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BBC Verify on a recent news conference*: "In a news conference on Thursday, Trump said that under Presidents Barack Obama and Joe Biden candidates with 'severe intellectual and psychiatric disabilities' could be hired as air traffic controllers (ATCs). He suggested, without offering any evidence, that this could be to blame for the crash. When challenged by reporters about why he thought this, he responded: 'Because I have common sense.'" .... "When talking about standards in the aviation agency under the Obama administration, Trump said: 'They actually came out with a directive, too white.'" In 2011 Obama did introduce an initiative, external to make the FAA a 'more diverse and inclusive workplace' - although this didn't label the agency 'too white'." It is quite clear that Trump's prejudice (he calls it "common sense") against inclusiveness is really racism, where people who have "intellectual and psychiatric disabilities" are being lumped in with people of colour to give a superficial rationale for criticising non-whites. He throws in a criticism of his Democrat predecessors for good measure, lying in the process. He also ignores details which strongly suggest air traffic control was at most only partly responsible for the crash. So far, so Trump. But this time around it seems cruder, more brazen, more contemptuous. * www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyeg61pnl5o Last edited by: James Loveless on Sat 1 Feb 25 at 18:56
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 19:07
Trump - Washington Crash - Zero
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| The problem is that Trump thinks he is a genius, and knows the answer to everything, and assumes his prejudices are right, so he cant resist coming out with answers before the facts are known. This has "inject bleach into the lungs" written all over it. |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 19:52
Trump - Washington Crash - tyrednemotional
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Meanwhile, the beloved Elon is making hay whilst Donald makes the headlines. Not widely reported, but the odd reputable news source has some detail. If even half of it is true then there's some very concerning stuff going on. |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 20:05
Trump - Washington Crash - James Loveless
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Meanwhile, Trump's approval rating (which has never been good - and mostly negative) has dived faster than any president so soon after inauguration. I wonder if Trump will continue on his crazy course (he has just announced air strikes have taken place on ISIS in Somalia. So much for his (supposed) reputation as a peace-maker. Then, of course, there are the trade tariffs on Canada, Mexico and China, with the EU expected to follow. He seems hell-bent on creating confusion for the sake of it. How much craziness will the saner members of his circle tolerate? Last edited by: James Loveless on Sat 1 Feb 25 at 20:06
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New Sun 2 Feb 25 09:14
Trump - Washington Crash - Zero
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>> How much craziness will >> the saner members of his circle tolerate? He hasnt appointed any. |
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New Sun 2 Feb 25 09:29
Trump - Washington Crash - tyrednemotional
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| The word "kakistocracy" comes to mind. |
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New Sat 1 Feb 25 20:25
Trump - Washington Crash - zippy
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>> Meanwhile, the beloved Elon is making hay whilst Donald makes the headlines. >> Like installing hard drives on servers in the top level HR department of the govt and the same in the payments dept? |
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New Sun 2 Feb 25 08:20
Trump - tariffs - sooty123
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| Seems Canada has put tariffs on US goods, trump has said if they carry out that threat he'll increase tariffs on them even further. Fun times. |
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New Sun 2 Feb 25 12:27
Trump - tariffs - zippy
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Just a way out observation... If he were a Russian agent, this is probably just how he would go about ruining the American economy. Apparently billions of gallons of water has been released from dams and reservoirs in California on his orders. This will damage agriculture in the state co.e the summer, which the water was intended for. |
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New Sun 2 Feb 25 20:54
Trump - tariffs - CGNorwich
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| Rumours of Canada imposing 100% tariffs on Tesla cars |
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New Sun 2 Feb 25 21:23
Trump - tariffs - Zero
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| Canada could make the transit of goods from the states to Alaska a bit tortuous. |
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New Sun 2 Feb 25 22:31
Trump - tariffs - zippy
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>> Canada could make the transit of goods from the states to Alaska a bit tortuous. >> That would be brilliant. They are saying that they will try and target products from red and swing states. Also, they apparently provide 90% of electrical power to New York and Chicago and could cause blackouts. |
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New Sun 2 Feb 25 22:42
Trump - tariffs - Zero
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>> They are saying that they will try and target products from red and swing states. >> >> Also, they apparently provide 90% of electrical power to New York and Chicago and could >> cause blackouts. Alas solidly Dem states, Sorry I meant radical left wing pinko states. |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 00:05
Trump - tariffs - zippy
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Canada should be the 51st state according to Trump. Perhaps Canada should ask if the states of Washington, California, New York and Illinois would like to join them and see if Trump likes that. Apparently we (the UK) have first dibs on Greenland. Perhaps to pee Trump off the Danes could sell it to us, then we could sell it to the Canadians. |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 11:05
Trump - tariffs - Manatee
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Canada as a state would be bigger than the rest of the US put together. If each Canadian province (there are 13) became a state then then the Senate could be Democrat forever. In Trump's broken brain the US is more powerful than Canada so must get its way if it comes to it. Question is whether it's somehting he says, or something he means. My sense is the former. He wants to cow Canada with tariffs, supposedly to get get his way (or demonstrate his power) on border controls. The 51st state thing would just be the waving about of something worse. I think that's how the Trump 'negotiating' brain works. It's coercion, which he thinks is deal making. His behaviour over the Potomac thing is shameful Cynically, he had an opportunity to show leadership in after a tragedy. Instead he seized the opportunity to lie about Biden taking away checks on ATC's. My vague plan to have a US holiday next year has been replaced by one to go to Canada. I don't know why I didn't think of it before. Trump aside, it will be much more interesting. Rail or motorhome? |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 11:36
Trump - tariffs - tyrednemotional
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>> >> My vague plan to have a US holiday next year has been replaced by one >> to go to Canada. I don't know why I didn't think of it before. Trump >> aside, it will be much more interesting. Rail or motorhome? >> >> Canada is redolent of The States, but much gentler and less in your face. We've holidayed there three times (2 x West Coast and 1 times East). Each a very different experience, but each also very enjoyable. Historically, I would have suggested motorhome and Rockies as a first "dip". We did this in '99 and had what the kids still think was the best holiday ever. However, we were attuned to a motorhome, and back then the various campsites (or at least, the most attractive ones out in the sticks) were pretty quiet. Last (2020) W coast visit was a (car) driving holiday, and everything was very much busier. Iconic sights were in some cases (think Lake Louise) somewhat overrun. We were quite glad we'd chosen not to use an RV. Last year we did the East Coast, Montreal Nova Scotia, PEI and Cape Breton. Very different to the W, but equally enjoyable. 3,000 km easy drive. Driving is, in general, very easy, and provides the flexibility over and above the train. I would still favour the W for a first trip (but wouldn't discount the E, it's a considerably shorter flight!). The classic road trip from Vancouver, onto Vancouver Island, Whistler, Jasper (what's left of it - accommodation could be a challenge), Banff, and then back to Vancouver (or Calgary, as we did last time), is a cracker. |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 13:41
Trump - tariffs - Manatee
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>> I would still favour the W for a first trip (but wouldn't discount the E, >> it's a considerably shorter flight!). The classic road trip from Vancouver, onto Vancouver Island, Whistler, >> Jasper (what's left of it - accommodation could be a challenge), Banff, and then back >> to Vancouver (or Calgary, as we did last time), is a cracker. Thanks. I like driving, we have two MX-5 road trips booked this year (Ireland and Spain/Portugal) and I'm not frightened of a motorhome, but I am conscious that we will be 72 and 77 next year and there's less work involved in self-drive or train/coach + hotels. I have some experience of caravanning rather than motorhoming and there is an overhead in finding routes, sites, parking, and setting up/striking camp. Still can't decide but will look at what is available. It might be moot if being over 70 stops me hiring/insuring a motorhome? |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 14:13
Trump - tariffs - tyrednemotional
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...in '99 we hired with Fraserway in Vancouver (Other rental firms are available). They currently have no (upper) age limit. See down this page (Under "licence and minimum age"): www.fraserway.com/rent/renting-with-fraserway/rental-information/rental-rates-information/ I suspect this policy will be reflected elsewhere. |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 18:00
Trump - tariffs - Fullchat
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We did it the other way round Calgary, Banff, Lake Louise, Jasper, Clearwater, Kamloops, Whistler and Vancouver for a few days where we returned the hire car and eventually flew from. I had a rather strange melancholy feeling as we dropped down from Whistler via Squamish toward Vancouver. Two weeks of 'exploring' the most stunning scenery and vastness returning with a bump to a built up city. Having said that Vancouver was fine |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 18:26
Trump - tariffs - CGNorwich
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My daughter used to live in Vancouver. Have done the drive form Calgary to Vancouver which is a great drive and very easy. The only problem I had ws that we arrived in Alberta after a huge storm and the city was flooded. The highway was washed away at Banff so I had to divert via Edmonton to get to Jasper which is one hell of a diversion! My daughter now lives near Halifax, Nova Scotia on the Eastern Shore so am now quite familiar witht that part of the world. Different to the West Coast but it has its own charm. Cape Breton is beautiful and the Cabot Trail is a must. PEI is totally different, a much softer landscape. Anne of Green Gables country! Halifax itself is a nice city with the waterfront having been transformed into an area of bars and restaurants. Lots of history, it' s where most WW2 convoys were assembled in the Bedford Basin, one of the largest natural harbours in the world. Worth reading up on the Halifax explosion in WW1 which flattened the city. Also where bodies of those drowned in Titanic disaster were brought. |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 11:39
Trump - tariffs - Zero
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>> Canada should be the 51st state according to Trump. The Canucks made their feelings clear last night when they boo'd the US national anthem at a hockey game |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 05:27
Trump - tariffs - tyrednemotional
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>> Rumours of Canada imposing 100% tariffs on Tesla cars >> Follow that with all the "tarrifed" areas banning the app formerly known as Twitter (and Facebook), and job's a good'un. (With added online safety benefits). |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 16:09
Trump - tariffs mexico - sooty123
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| Appears to have worked with mexico, they've agreed to put 10,000 troops on their side of the border. The US have agreed to help stop the weapons flowing from the US. All tariffs aimed at mexico paused for a month. |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 22:05
Trump - tariffs mexico - CGNorwich
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>> Appears to have worked with mexico, they've agreed to put 10,000 troops on their side >> of the border. The US have agreed to help stop the weapons flowing from the >> US. All tariffs aimed at mexico paused for a month. >> Similar deal with Canada. Same old bluster from Trump. Says something extreme and never quite follows through with it. Will claim it as a genius piece of deal making on his part. |
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New Mon 3 Feb 25 22:11
Trump - tariffs mexico - tyrednemotional
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Well, if the real target was trade imbalance then I'd agree....but if the target was stemming the flow of drugs (which it may or may not do in actuality) then he probably can claim it as a result. Not something he'll be able to do in similar circumstances re: the EU, though. |
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New Wed 5 Feb 25 21:13
Trump - tariffs mexico - zippy
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Are we sure he isn't a Russian agent? www.reuters.com/world/us/cia-offers-buyouts-entire-workforce-align-with-trump-priorities-wsj-reports-2025-02-05/ |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 11:21
Trump - tariffs mexico - Fullchat
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This came up on a feed from somewhere Copying and saving has removed the paragraphs :( Someone asked "Why do some British people not like Donald Trump?" Nate White, an articulate and witty writer from England, wrote this magnificent response: "A few things spring to mind. Trump lacks certain qualities which the British traditionally esteem. For instance, he has no class, no charm, no coolness, no credibility, no compassion, no wit, no warmth, no wisdom, no subtlety, no sensitivity, no self-awareness, no humility, no honour and no grace - all qualities, funnily enough, with which his predecessor Mr. Obama was generously blessed. So for us, the stark contrast does rather throw Trump’s limitations into embarrassingly sharp relief. Plus, we like a laugh. And while Trump may be laughable, he has never once said anything wry, witty or even faintly amusing - not once, ever. I don’t say that rhetorically, I mean it quite literally: not once, not ever. And that fact is particularly disturbing to the British sensibility - for us, to lack humour is almost inhuman. But with Trump, it’s a fact. He doesn’t even seem to understand what a joke is - his idea of a joke is a crass comment, an illiterate insult, a casual act of cruelty. Trump is a troll. And like all trolls, he is never funny and he never laughs; he only crows or jeers. And scarily, he doesn’t just talk in crude, witless insults - he actually thinks in them. His mind is a simple bot-like algorithm of petty prejudices and knee-jerk nastiness. There is never any under-layer of irony, complexity, nuance or depth. It’s all surface. Some Americans might see this as refreshingly upfront. Well, we don’t. We see it as having no inner world, no soul. And in Britain we traditionally side with David, not Goliath. All our heroes are plucky underdogs: Robin Hood, Dick Whittington, Oliver Twist. Trump is neither plucky, nor an underdog. He is the exact opposite of that. He’s not even a spoiled rich-boy, or a greedy fat-cat. He’s more a fat white slug. A Jabba the Hutt of privilege. And worse, he is that most unforgivable of all things to the British: a bully. That is, except when he is among bullies; then he suddenly transforms into a snivelling sidekick instead. There are unspoken rules to this stuff - the Queensberry rules of basic decency - and he breaks them all. He punches downwards - which a gentleman should, would, could never do - and every blow he aims is below the belt. He particularly likes to kick the vulnerable or voiceless - and he kicks them when they are down. So the fact that a significant minority - perhaps a third - of Americans look at what he does, listen to what he says, and then think 'Yeah, he seems like my kind of guy’ is a matter of some confusion and no little distress to British people, given that: * Americans are supposed to be nicer than us, and mostly are. * You don't need a particularly keen eye for detail to spot a few flaws in the man. This last point is what especially confuses and dismays British people, and many other people too; his faults seem pretty b***** hard to miss. After all, it’s impossible to read a single tweet, or hear him speak a sentence or two, without staring deep into the abyss. He turns being artless into an art form; he is a Picasso of pettiness; a Shakespeare of s***. His faults are fractal: even his flaws have flaws, and so on ad infinitum. God knows there have always been stupid people in the world, and plenty of nasty people too. But rarely has stupidity been so nasty, or nastiness so stupid. He makes Nixon look trustworthy and George W look smart. In fact, if Frankenstein decided to make a monster assembled entirely from human flaws - he would make a Trump. And a remorseful Doctor Frankenstein would clutch out big clumpfuls of hair and scream in anguish: 'My God… what… have… I… created? If being a t**t was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set." |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 12:11
Trump - tariffs mexico - zippy
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Paragraphs fixed: :-) Someone asked "Why do some British people not like Donald Trump?" Nate White, an articulate and witty writer from England, wrote this magnificent response: "A few things spring to mind. Trump lacks certain qualities which the British traditionally esteem. For instance, he has no class, no charm, no coolness, no credibility, no compassion, no wit, no warmth, no wisdom, no subtlety, no sensitivity, no self-awareness, no humility, no honour and no grace - all qualities, funnily enough, with which his predecessor Mr. Obama was generously blessed. So for us, the stark contrast does rather throw Trump’s limitations into embarrassingly sharp relief. Plus, we like a laugh. And while Trump may be laughable, he has never once said anything wry, witty or even faintly amusing - not once, ever. I don’t say that rhetorically, I mean it quite literally: not once, not ever. And that fact is particularly disturbing to the British sensibility - for us, to lack humour is almost inhuman. But with Trump, it’s a fact. He doesn’t even seem to understand what a joke is - his idea of a joke is a crass comment, an illiterate insult, a casual act of cruelty. Trump is a troll. And like all trolls, he is never funny and he never laughs; he only crows or jeers. And scarily, he doesn’t just talk in crude, witless insults - he actually thinks in them. His mind is a simple bot-like algorithm of petty prejudices and knee-jerk nastiness. There is never any under-layer of irony, complexity, nuance or depth. It’s all surface. Some Americans might see this as refreshingly upfront. Well, we don’t. We see it as having no inner world, no soul. And in Britain we traditionally side with David, not Goliath. All our heroes are plucky underdogs: Robin Hood, Dick Whittington, Oliver Twist. Trump is neither plucky, nor an underdog. He is the exact opposite of that. He’s not even a spoiled rich-boy, or a greedy fat-cat. He’s more a fat white slug. A Jabba the Hutt of privilege. And worse, he is that most unforgivable of all things to the British: a bully. That is, except when he is among bullies; then he suddenly transforms into a snivelling sidekick instead. There are unspoken rules to this stuff - the Queensberry rules of basic decency - and he breaks them all. He punches downwards - which a gentleman should, would, could never do - and every blow he aims is below the belt. He particularly likes to kick the vulnerable or voiceless - and he kicks them when they are down. So the fact that a significant minority - perhaps a third - of Americans look at what he does, listen to what he says, and then think 'Yeah, he seems like my kind of guy’ is a matter of some confusion and no little distress to British people, given that: * Americans are supposed to be nicer than us, and mostly are. * You don't need a particularly keen eye for detail to spot a few flaws in the man. This last point is what especially confuses and dismays British people, and many other people too; his faults seem pretty b***** hard to miss. After all, it’s impossible to read a single tweet, or hear him speak a sentence or two, without staring deep into the abyss. He turns being artless into an art form; he is a Picasso of pettiness; a Shakespeare of s***. His faults are fractal: even his flaws have flaws, and so on ad infinitum. God knows there have always been stupid people in the world, and plenty of nasty people too. But rarely has stupidity been so nasty, or nastiness so stupid. He makes Nixon look trustworthy and George W look smart. In fact, if Frankenstein decided to make a monster assembled entirely from human flaws - he would make a Trump. And a remorseful Doctor Frankenstein would clutch out big clumpfuls of hair and scream in anguish: 'My God… what… have… I… created? If being a t**t was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set." |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 12:34
Trump - tariffs mexico - Fullchat
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| I'm obliged :) |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 20:47
Trump - tariffs mexico - Zero
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| Now Trump has renamed the Gulf of Mexico, he will have to rename Mar-a-Lago to "sea to lake" |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 21:15
Trump - tariffs mexico - Zero
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And Mar-a-Lago in Last edited by: Zero on Thu 6 Feb 25 at 21:15
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 21:28
Trump - tariffs mexico - Terry
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I agree with much that Nate White writes - but so what? I am reminded that one interviewee expressed the view that although he did not like Trump, he would vote for him as "he gets things done". Shades af Brexit, Johnson and Farage here! That British and US cultures and behaviours are very different is easily observed. Indeed many Americans are in relative awe of some aspects of UK culture - eg: courtesy, pomp and ceremony, culture, history, self deprecation, reserve etc. But to be unreservedly critical of one who was (this time) elected by a majority of US voters is plain arrogance. The almost implicit assumption that it is all due to redneck, moonshine swilling, hard right, gun toting, backwoods folk is complete nonsense - Republican supporters come from across society including the educated, wealthy, hard working, decent etc. The UK has been failing as a nation since WW2 - the only government in the last 80 years that has materially challenged decline is the Thatcher administration - and I accept that her efforts were divisive. A single minded (often simplistic) strategy where MAGA initiates action is attractive. Compared to UK politics (both left and right) where procrastination, avoid upsetting anyone, half truths and selective statistics dominate debates. Public enquiries have become a national pastime - unacceptably protracted as a means to avoid actual leadership. Recent examples in the news in the past week (there are probably dozens if one bothered to dig a bit further: - Heathrow 3rd runway (first proposed 2009) - Grenfall fire 2017 - still waiting for a final report and who pays (just knock it down) - Post Office Horizon compensation still not fully paid (20 years on) - SAS used unjustified lethal force - inquest judging incident in 1992. It happened, move on. It is no surprise that the US supports leaders who actually do something. Economic evidence in terms of jobs, per capita income, living standards demonstrate they have it more right than the UK. Whether is is the best strategy for social cohesion is another matter. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 22:49
Trump - tariffs mexico - zippy
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>> the last 80 years that has materially challenged decline is the Thatcher administration - and >> I accept that her efforts were divisive. >> She sold off state assets for a song and now we are paying excessively for gas, water and electricity. She squandered North Sea oil revenues when other countries invested in sovereign wealth funds. She destroyed the mining industry to prove a political point and if it wasn't the miners it would have been another industry. >> A single minded (often simplistic) strategy where MAGA initiates action is attractive. And overlooks so many others' rights. >> politics (both left and right) where procrastination, avoid upsetting anyone, half truths and selective statistics >> dominate debates. >> >> Public enquiries have become a national pastime - unacceptably protracted as a means to avoid >> actual leadership. Recent examples in the news in the past week (there are probably dozens >> if one bothered to dig a bit further: >> >> - Heathrow 3rd runway (first proposed 2009) Heathrow is a company. You shouldn't just let a private concern bulldoze people's homes etc. without thorough investigation. >> - Grenfall fire 2017 - still waiting for a final report and who pays (just >> knock it down) Up until recently it was still a crime scene apparently. Also relatives if the victims saw it as a memorial. So you can't just trample over the law. >> - Post Office Horizon compensation still not fully paid (20 years on) A hugely complicated issue finding culpability. The enquiry was to investigate that and set off police action. >> - SAS used unjustified lethal force - inquest judging incident in 1992. It happened, move >> on. I abhore the IRA but the State can't go around killing people when it has been shown there were options to arrest rather than ambush and execute, even if it was just to shout "surrender". There must be the rule of law. >> >> It is no surprise that the US supports leaders who actually do something. Economic evidence >> in terms of jobs, per capita income, living standards demonstrate they have it more right >> than the UK. Whether is is the best strategy for social cohesion is another matter. >> |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 22:52
Trump - Pagers - zippy
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Netanyahu has given Trump this.... www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/06/netanyahu-trump-golden-pager-lebanon-hezbollah-attack#img-2 Tasteless and tactless springs to mind. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 08:25
Trump - Pagers - Zero
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>> Tasteless and tactless springs to mind. It will either be spying on him, or blow him up. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 01:19
Trump - tariffs mexico - Terry
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You are making excuses, or trying to justify the evidently dilatory, incompetent and unjust. "justice delayed is justice denied" is attributed to British Prime Minister William Gladstone. Delays in Grenfall, infected blood, Post Office, IRA killings etc is simply a denial of justice. Irrespective of whether I agree with the outcome, justice has been denied. That you have a particular opinion on Thatcher and her actions is entirely reasonable - we may simply agree to differ. Taking more than a decade (sometimes several decades) to approve strategically important projects (eg: Heathrow, HS2, nuclear expansion) mostly adds cost and uncertainty. Approval only when further delay is critical frequently leads to the sub-optimal. |
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New Thu 6 Feb 25 23:14
Trump - tariffs mexico - smokie
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| I get that it must be hard to for you to not get aroused when Thatch is mentioned :-) but Terry's point wasn't really inviting discussion on the merits of what she did, it was surely more about the fact that few politicians of any colour really actually do much of any substance. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 07:24
Trump - tariffs mexico - Rudedog
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So what we are saying is that 'the people' are happy to have a leader do 'something' even though it might be totally bonkers of have long term repercussions for the country? |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 08:01
Trump - tariffs mexico - Manatee
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I think Mussolini's thing was that he got things done. What actually gets done is the important thing. I do agree however that our planning and decision making has been sclerotic. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 08:33
Trump - tariffs mexico - Zero
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>> I think Mussolini's thing was that he got things done. >> >> What actually gets done is the important thing. >> >> I do agree however that our planning and decision making has been sclerotic. What AI (not the Chinese version) says about MUssolini AI Overview Learn more While Mussolini did implement significant public works projects and initially appeared to bring order and stability to Italy, his methods were brutal and oppressive, effectively silencing opposition and severely curtailing individual freedoms, meaning that while he "got things done" in terms of visible projects, his regime was ultimately characterized by totalitarian control and human rights abuses; therefore, his achievements are heavily qualified by the extreme nature of his rule. Key points about Mussolini's rule: Public works projects: Mussolini oversaw large-scale infrastructure projects like road building and land reclamation, which contributed to the perception that he was "getting things done." Suppression of dissent: He ruthlessly suppressed political opposition through his secret police, effectively eliminating free speech and democratic institutions. Propaganda: Mussolini heavily relied on propaganda to cultivate a cult of personality and portray himself as a strong leader who could solve Italy's problems. Economic issues: Despite initial appearances, Mussolini's economic policies were not sustainable and ultimately led to significant problems for the Italian economy. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 08:17
Trump - tariffs mexico - smokie
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| Seems that way Rudedog. See Brexit, Farage win and Trump for recent examples. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 08:22
Trump - tariffs mexico - Zero
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>> The UK has been failing as a nation since WW2 - the only government in >> the last 80 years that has materially challenged decline is the Thatcher administration - and >> I accept that her efforts were divisive. And failed By most ways you score a government, the best has been the 97 - 2007 Blair government. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 09:12
Trump - tariffs mexico - CGNorwich
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| I would make a case for the best post war government being Tha of Harold’s MacMillan 1957-1963. Certainly for most it was a time of low unemployment, increasing prosperity and a feeling that things were improving. “You’ve never had it so good” was indeed true.” |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 13:23
Trump - tariffs mexico - Terry
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>> And failed >> >> By most ways you score a government, the best has been the 97 - 2007 >> Blair government. >> Labour took over an economy at the start of a growth cycle, largely adopted the previous Tory spending and tax plans. They lost in 2010 with borrowing out of control through support for the banking system beset by a banking crisis. Some good things done like independence for the Bank of England, some debatable like PFI deals which delivered better we are still paying for, Iraq. Blair was a very effective communicator and the first to make extensive use of new media. There is a fundamental reality. A new administration heaps blame on its predecessors, is elected on a positive tide of hope etc. After 10-12 tears the deficiencies and mistakes are unambiguously laid at the door of the incumbents. |
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 15:25
Trump Thread - AI summary of user's positions - car4play
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Here's a summary of each user's point of view based on their comments in the discussion CGNorwich
James Loveless
Zero
Terry
Manatee
Kevin
zippy
Robin O'Reliant
Bromptonaut
sooty123
tyrednemotional
Fullchat
Mapmaker
Rudedog
smokie
legacylad, sherlock47, bathtub tom, Biggles, John Boy, Fullchat, martin aston, Mapmaker, Rudedog, Boxsterboy
This summary reflects a predominantly critical view of Trump with varied nuances, where even those not entirely opposed to his methods question the integrity, morality, or long-term effects of his leadership.
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New Fri 7 Feb 25 21:39
Trump Thread - AI summary of user's positions - smokie
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| That's clever |
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New Sat 8 Feb 25 14:08
Trump Thread - AI summary of user's positions - Terry
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| A very fair and balanced summary |
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New Sat 8 Feb 25 19:38
Trump Thread - AI summary of user's positions - CGNorwich
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| AI has done that in a minute or two I guess. For a human that would have taken quite a few hours of reading, preparation and typing. That gives a glimpse of the enormous effect that A I will have on employment in the not distant future. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 25 19:47
Trump Thread - AI summary of user's positions - tyrednemotional
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| First time I've been accused of using humour. It's a way to go yet...... |
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New Sat 8 Feb 25 22:55
Trump Thread - AI summary of user's positions - Zero
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>> First time I've been accused of using humour. It's a way to go yet...... A weary soul, a heart distressed, Tyrednemotional, words confessed. Accused of mirth, a gentle jest, A brand new path, a trial blessed. First time, the label, sharp and keen, A weight of doubt, a whispered scene. Of humour's grace, a subtle sheen, A journey long, a path unseen. The laughter's touch, a fragile thing, A whispered hope, a joyful spring. To find its voice, a tender swing, A path untrod, where shadows cling. The world unfolds, a canvas wide, With colours bright, and truths inside. To find the joy, the humour's tide, A heart anew, with hope to ride. Yet still the doubt, a lingering trace, A whispered fear, a hidden space. But in the quest, a hopeful face, To find the light, to claim the grace. So onward still, with steadfast hand, To find the joy, throughout the land. The path is long, the task at hand, A hopeful heart, in time to stand. |
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New Sun 9 Feb 25 02:43
Trump Thread - AI summary of user's positions - Terry
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>> AI has done that in a minute or two I guess. For a human that >> would have taken quite a few hours of reading, preparation and typing. That gives a >> glimpse of the enormous effect that A I will have on employment in the not >> distant future. If, as I assume, this was AI generated, the traditionally secure professions are going to come under precisely the same type of pressures manual and lower skilled workers went through over the past 40 years through automation, IT systems, online sales, data analysis etc etc. Jobs in coal mining, steel, secretarial and typing pools, finance admin (wages, invoicing, reconciliations, etc), logistics and planning, manufacturing, many trade skills have all but disappeared. It may not be a sudden stage - more likely a transition over 10-25 years. Loss of employment in other areas is already underway and with more major impacts in other sectors to come - legal, financial management, banking, contract drafting, medical screening and diagnosis etc. As individuals we need to think about how to respond to this to assure our personal futures. As a society we need to ensure education, training, investment etc are aligned with the "brave new world" - trying to resist the inevitable as many in the 1970-90s did is ultimately futile. Last edited by: Terry on Sun 9 Feb 25 at 02:44
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New Sat 8 Feb 25 20:21
Trump Thread - AI summary of user's positions - Biggles
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I'll clarify my opinion of Donald Trump then, if I may. He is a narcissist whose business success, if you can call it that, has been achieved by lying and exploiting others. He is a t*** and the world would have been a better place if that bullet had found its mark. |
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New Sat 8 Feb 25 22:37
Trump - Zero
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Suddenly I am warming to him thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/5134441-trump-prince-harry-meghan-markle-immigration/ |
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New Sun 9 Feb 25 12:40
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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| He's got that one bang on. |
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New Sun 9 Feb 25 13:28
Trump - CGNorwich
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| Oh I don’t know. They do provide a never ending supply of copy for the tabloids so they must be beneficial to the economy. They’re stupid certainly but not malignant like Trump. |
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New Thu 13 Feb 25 14:43
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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I wonder why the anti immigration right are doing so well in Germany? www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/13/vehicle-driven-into-group-of-people-in-munich |
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New Fri 14 Feb 25 08:34
Trump - Manatee
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Well it's obviously not to do with that incident, because they have been doing well for some time. There is a lot of trouble in the world and almost of people trying to remove themselves from those areas. The way that some politicians have dealt with this and frankly exploited it has normalised racist language and behaviour. Do you think that might have contributed? |
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New Fri 14 Feb 25 12:53
Trump - Rudedog
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I always wondered if one of these right-wing parties suddenly got into power would be 'in it for them'? Power, money? or once they got there they would 'chicken out' and all resign pretty quickly. |
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New Fri 14 Feb 25 14:57
Trump - Manatee
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>> I always wondered if one of these right-wing parties suddenly got into power would be >> 'in it for them'? >> >> Power, money? or once they got there they would 'chicken out' and all resign pretty >> quickly. Both. For the authoritarian tendency, the fascists if you prefer, it's imposing their beliefs on other people. For the extreme capitalists, it's greed, and the consequence is making working people at least relatively poorer. Even a Thatcher type 'meritocracy' has, and had, the effect of doing that as she explained (her justification being that the poor were still better off than they might have been had the rich not got a lot richer). One of my best friends, a thoroughly decent capitalist, says fairness should be about equal opportunity, not equal rewards for all (which is a mischievous comparison anyway since very few would argue for complete equality). It doesn't really wash, because regardless of opportunity, we can't all be billonaires. |
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New Fri 14 Feb 25 14:12
Trump - Kevin
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>The way that some politicians have dealt with this and frankly exploited it has normalised racist >language and behaviour. Do you think that might have contributed? Oh absolutely. Nothing to do with terrorist attacks, it's those nasty German racists. |
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New Fri 14 Feb 25 15:15
Trump - Manatee
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Just hope those people don't get the upper hand as they have in the USA, which is going down the toilet very fast. The US Agency for International Development as effectively been shut down and aid worth $40,000,000,000 a year has stopped, China will be straight in to those places and there's goes USA's place in the world. There is nothing good about the far right whether liberal or authoritarian. |
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New Fri 14 Feb 25 16:14
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> >> There is nothing good about the far right whether liberal or authoritarian. >> I agree, but they are going to score when you hand them an open goal. In Germany's case it was presented to them by Angels Merkel and her disasterous policy of allowing unlimited immigration from countries with cultures and values far different to that of the developed world, and who in many cases had been brought up to hate us. |
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New Fri 14 Feb 25 16:58
Trump - Terry
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Few could argue convincingly that multitudinous executive orders emanating from Trump are the carefully crafted product product of strategic and political thought. I don't. They are shock tactics - disruptive, challenging accepted norms - see what falls out. They are not close to being plausible or implementable - there is no where near enough detail. In just a few weeks Trump has forced debate on Gaza, Ukraine, tariff, trade, immigration etc - issues which would otherwise have taken months, possibly years, maybe never to properly surface. It is entirely reasonable to take exception to his MAGA policies, but as the basis for his election, pursing a positive outcome with vigour is to be commended, A sharp contrast with traditional international dialogue which delivers either little, late or nothing (Gaza and Ukraine as prime examples). Over decades the UN has proven itself largely ineffectual, the EU could make a sloth look energetic. |
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New Fri 14 Feb 25 18:02
Trump - CGNorwich
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| I rather think that you are seeing ability meaning and planning in the ramblings and incoherent ideas of an ageing narcissist obsessed with money and power. Those ideas may well shortly have disastrous consequence for millions of people throughout the world. Time will tell. I have a feeling that we won' t need to wait too long. |
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New Fri 14 Feb 25 19:39
Trump - tyrednemotional
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It is all a bit "never mind the quality, feel the width" isn't it. (and who do you think did Vance's irony bypass?) |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 12:23
Trump - Kevin
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>The US Agency for International Development as effectively been shut down and aid >worth $40,000,000,000 a year has stopped, Every President has his own agenda and under Biden USAID spent money on projects that the Democrats thought were suitable vehicles for promoting US interests. www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/02/at-usaid-waste-and-abuse-runs-deep/ www.nytimes.com/2025/02/08/us/politics/usaid-funding-trump-fact-check.html Trump and the Republicans think that eg. $20M granted for a Sesame Street Workshop in Iraq could be better spent on other things. Trump is also pulling foreign aid into the State Dept because their responsibilities supposedly overlap. I don't agree with how he's going about it but can't disagree with the objectives. >China will be straight in to those places and there's goes USA's place in the world. No real harm done then if China will step in to support gender-affirming healthcare in Guatemala and gender-neutral journalism in Sri Lanka. Or will they be too occupied building a base in the Chagos Islands that the UK is so eager to pay them to adopt? |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 13:57
Trump - CGNorwich
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"Trump and the Republicans think that eg. $20M granted for a Sesame Street Workshop in Iraq could be better spent on other things." I'm sure he does. Another Golf course perhaps? Why would he want to make the lives of young children in war torn areas any happier? Ahlan Simsim seems an admirable organisation to me. www.rescue.org/ahlansimsim |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 14:47
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> Trump and the Republicans think that eg. $20M granted for a Sesame Street Workshop in >> Iraq could be better spent on other things. Trump is also pulling foreign aid into >> the State Dept because their responsibilities supposedly overlap. I don't agree with how he's going >> about it but can't disagree with the objectives. If the Republicans had simply wanted to redirect cash from Blue causes to Red they could have done that. Dismembering the entire organisation as they have is a very different thing. |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 16:13
Trump - Kevin
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>Dismembering the entire organisation as they have is a very different thing. As I said above. It's not how I would have done it. Bull in a china shop. Remember though that the intention is to absorb USAID's responsibilities into the State Dept. I have an inkling of why Trump wants to do that but we'll see how it pans out. |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 15:23
Trump - sooty123
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>China will be straight in to those places and there's goes USA's place in the >> world. >> >> No real harm done then if China will step in to support gender-affirming healthcare in >> Guatemala and gender-neutral journalism in Sri Lanka. Or will they be too occupied building a >> base in the Chagos Islands that the UK is so eager to pay them to >> adopt? >> The jokey response is noted but I think you know it's a bit more complex than that. |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 16:07
Trump - Kevin
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>The jokey response is noted but I think you know it's a bit more complex than that. Of course it's more complex but it helps if you are willing to see more than one side of the argument which some seem unwilling to even consider. |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 17:14
Trump - sooty123
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Of course it's more complex but it helps if you are willing to see more >> than one side of the argument which some seem unwilling to even consider. >> Both sides, well things can be both influential and a on the face of it a waste of money at the same time. Trying to separate that out can be difficult or you can take a sledgehammer to it. I suppose the US will see if it's worked or not. |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 19:03
Trump - Manatee
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I have considered. The USA has been rotten since at least the 1980's. The top 1% has got steadily richer, many millions are dirt poor, half a million a year are bankrupted by the cost of medical care, and the country is effectively controlled by Wall Street with a revolving door between the investment banks and the Treasury. It needs shaking up. Incremental change will not do it. A Democratic government for the next 20 years would probably make very little difference compared with how it's been since the deregulation of the financial sector, through the financial crash which simply proved the power of the investment banks, hedge funds, major insurers and corporate giants the leaders of which kept all their ill gotten gains that ultimately came from retail investors and pension funds. The Dems must carry a lot of the blame. Even the sainted Obama whose ineffectual financial regulation post 2008 made almost no difference at all. Trump and Musk are shakers but their shaking is for the benefit of the super rich. Besides slashing public services they are raising the debt ceiling, presumably to fund even more tax cuts for Musk et al. The programmes they are cutting, which broadly are there to support ordinary people, have been funded by Congress which has so far played no part in their cancellation. The checks and balances in the constitution have been treated with disdain. Musk spent an estimated $270,000 getting Trump elected and now oversees the destruction. Does that sound legitimate? It's the definition of oligarchy. Sure, there is inefficiency in government departments but what's happening is not identifying much if any of that - the bath and all its contents are being destroyed. Democrats could fix this if they did their job properly by putting forward serious solutions that truly benefit working people and articulating them properly. Republicans could stop it. In the end it might have to be the MAGA voters, when it dawns that Trump/Musk are going to make them even poorer to enrich billionaires. Make excuses for them if you like. Giving credit to Trump is like saying Hitler was kind to dogs. I'm pretty sure they are destroying their own country, enabling the dictators in China and Russia, and likely to do us a lot of damage in the process if they aren't stopped. They let out that bloke with the horns and the spear didn't they? Maybe he needs to invade the White House next time. In the end, if the Dems or even what remains of the Republican party learn from this, it might actually do some good provided Trump and Musk are stopped sooner than later. But Trump deserves no credit. Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 15 Feb 25 at 19:05
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 19:47
Trump - tyrednemotional
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>> >> Trump and Musk are shakers but their shaking is for the benefit of the super >> rich. Besides slashing public services they are raising the debt ceiling, presumably to fund even >> more tax cuts for Musk et al. >> >> The programmes they are cutting, which broadly are there to support ordinary people, have been >> funded by Congress which has so far played no part in their cancellation. The checks >> and balances in the constitution have been treated with disdain. Musk spent an estimated $270,000 >> getting Trump elected and now oversees the destruction. Does that sound legitimate? It's the definition >> of oligarchy. >> >> Sure, there is inefficiency in government departments but what's happening is not identifying much if >> any of that - the bath and all its contents are being destroyed. >> Whilst good ol' boy (sic) JD was railing on about Europe being anti-democratic, John Sopel, in the independent, was writing this: But here was Musk, doing something that few are permitted to do. He was upstaging Donald Trump. The cameras were on Musk as he sought to explain his work in Doge – the department of government efficiency. As Musk argued this was all about democratic accountability, my irony meter went straight to 11. Musk, who has been elected by no one – who has faced no confirmation hearing as his post is not a cabinet position, and whose department is not a government department, meaning his work cannot be scrutinised by Congress – was providing a lecture on democratic accountability. His fear, he said, was America had ceased to be a democracy and had become a bureaucracy, run by a deep state whose only goal is self-preservation. To deal with this, Musk can go into the US Treasury or the Pentagon and look at who has been awarded government contracts. But his own SpaceX company has contracts worth billions from the US government. So too have his rivals. Is he really the man to judge what is fair government spending and what is not? At the end of last week, the White House press secretary was asked who would police any conflict of interests arising from Musk’s own business interests and his work inside Doge. Can you guess the answer? Why, of course, Musk will be left to police them himself. Does Donald Trump know what he has unleashed? Yes, there's been a recent spate of irony bypass ops in Washington, along with the judgement removals and ego-augmentations. |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 20:56
Trump - Kevin
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--- snip --- >Democrats could fix this if they did their job properly by putting forward serious >solutions that truly benefit working people and articulating them properly. And there you have it. "..if they did their job properly.." But they didn't. They put more emphasis on ideology than getting the basics done. I'm certain that Trump wasn't elected because voters liked his personality or his style. He was elected because voters didn't like what the Democrats were doing and he promised to stop it. They were fed-up of the Democrats telling them everything was hunky-dory when their experience was completely different. >Make excuses for them if you like. Giving credit to Trump is like saying Hitler >was kind to dogs. No excuses and no rhetoric. I am expressing my opinion of what's being done and why. I also claim Godwin's law. |
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New Sun 16 Feb 25 08:08
Trump - Zero
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>> I'm certain that Trump wasn't elected because voters liked his personality or his style. He >> was elected because voters didn't like what the Democrats were NOT doing and he >>promised to >> Going to be picky here, its only minor changes, but its important and key to how trump got in. IT is illegal immigration. Wasnt touched on in the campaign by the Dems, previous administration gave no acknowledgement it was a perceived issue, all in all it was what got Trump in. Terrible campaign from the Dems, from the moment they let Biden carry on. Harris's campaign was basically, "I replaced Jo Biden" Its easy to beat trump, you don't demonise him, criticise him, because everyone knows he is terrible, you use him, and simply point out how you will deal with the public perceived fracture points he kindly brings to the surface for you. Last edited by: Zero on Sun 16 Feb 25 at 08:12
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New Sun 16 Feb 25 13:24
Trump - zippy
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>> Its easy to beat trump, you don't demonise him, criticise him, because everyone knows he >> is terrible, you use him,... In a normal world I would agree with you, however, I now wonder if there will be free and fair elections in November 2028, especially as Musk is putting his greedy fingers in all areas of Govt. IT. |
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New Sun 16 Feb 25 13:47
Trump - tyrednemotional
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| The 2028 elections will probably be settled via AI (Artificial Ignorance) |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 16:13
Trump - Terry
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The UK aid budget in 2023 is quoted at £15.3bn - around 0.5% of GDP. Trying to establish where it goes is a minefield. Some goes towards: - bilateral aid (£1-2bn), - some of it is spent in the UK hosting refugees (about $4bn), - some of it seems directed towards projects which provide a financial return to the UK, - £5.5bn goes through core contributions to multilaterals More detailed searching may find something more informative. Otherwise we are simply taking it on trust money is being spent wisely on that which most would consider justifiable aid - eg: education, basic healthcare, clean water, famine relief etc. The cynical would seriously question whether "smoke and mirrors" is being used to adjust budgets (eg: refugee support), whether the money is being used effectively or being corruptly lost, whether we are funding "pet projects" or highest priority aid needs. Whether totally dismantling a complete department is the best route to improved transparency is debatable - but certainly a reasonable option. |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 16:09
Trump - Zero
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>> Or will they be too occupied building a >> base in the Chagos Islands that the UK is so eager to pay them to >> adopt? Essentially its a US base. Ok there is the slight issue thats its a overseas territory administered by the UK, and the US leases it, but if I were Starma, I would just cancel the lease, hand the whole territory over to the yanks. They can handle the UN resolutions and the Chagosians, and we abdicate responsibility. |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 16:20
Trump - tyrednemotional
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..or we could resettle the Chagossians in Egypt and Jordan........ ....oh wait, we've already sent them to Mauritius! |
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New Sat 15 Feb 25 19:00
Trump - zippy
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Time zones are weird. It's 19:00 here. It's 13:00 in Mexico. It's 1930s Germany in the USA. |
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New Mon 17 Feb 25 22:03
Trump - zippy
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And the madness continues... Hundreds of air traffic controllers have been fired... metro.co.uk/2025/02/17/donald-trump-fires-hundreds-air-traffic-controllers-plane-crash-22576638/ Reparations for Ukraine are worse than Germany's after Versailles - remember, this is the innocent party!!! www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14406417/Trump-withdraw-troops-form-Baltics-leave-Europe-vulnerable-Russia-European-officials-fear-report-claims-peace-plan-Ukraine-forced-extraordinary-financial-reparations.html |
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New Thu 20 Feb 25 16:04
Trump - Manatee
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Clip of the State of the State speech by JB Pritzker, governor of Illinois implicitly denouncing Trump and Musk as Nazis youtu.be/hS66O1C7Gp4?si=bQouDbO83vR0HNBg |
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New Thu 27 Feb 25 03:15
Trump - zippy
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Who'd have ever thought that the USA would side with Russia at the UN Security Council when voting about the Ukraine war. |
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New Thu 27 Feb 25 07:23
Trump - Rudedog
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Exactly - not just abstain but to vote with them and a few other countries who the US would normally be deriding - I'd hate to be the official who has his/her name against that vote and how it will go down in the history books. |
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New Thu 27 Feb 25 17:19
Trump - Boxsterboy
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Yes, I'm surprised the official involved didn't resign in protest. America is no longer the leader of the free world. |
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New Thu 27 Feb 25 18:02
Trump - CGNorwich
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| I here Starmer has just given an invitation to a State Visit to Trump. Might as well go the whole hog and lick his boots. |
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New Thu 27 Feb 25 18:06
Trump - Manatee
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| He's given Trump something that costs us little and whlch Trump.appears to put a high value on. Seems smart to me. |
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 07:39
Trump - CGNorwich
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So nothing really agreed at the meeting apart from Yrimps’s jolly to meet the king . |
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 09:31
Trump - sooty123
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| I didn't watch all the press conference with the PM but I think sks did pretty well. Quite often he looks a bit wishy washy but fair play he did alright dealing with trump. |
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 18:40
Trump - Fullchat
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| Feeling physically sick listening to what has happened in the Oval Office. Zelensky treated like a naughty schoolboy and totally belittled. :( |
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 18:51
Trump - CGNorwich
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| Trump is an ignorant bully. I hope that the UK and Europe stand resolutely behind Zelensky. It I is time that we stopped fawning to this man and made it clear where our sympathies and indeed interests lie. |
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 19:08
Trump - Zero
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Trump the (self confessed) deal maker. That went well then.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 28 Feb 25 at 19:08
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 19:31
Trump - tyrednemotional
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Trump doing his "Apprentice" act and playing to the gallery. Interesting to judge from comments how it went down in the States. Washington Post has a host of fairly erudite comments largely appalled at both DT and JDV, whereas the New York Post (not Times) has a smaller volume of less erudite comments of the opposite view. I don't think we'll be surprised by the split response, will we? |
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 19:38
Trump - James Loveless
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Recent erratic behaviour by Trump, including his disrespect for almost everything and everyone outside his circle, reveals some uncomfortable truths about his state of mind. When you read of speculation that the Russian's flouting of the 1990 Budapest Memorandum is being interpreted as giving Ukraine the right to re-acquire nuclear weapons, in the absence of NATO or US support, you realise what may be the consequences of Trump's ignorance and stupidity. |
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 20:42
Trump - Terry
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By any normal diplomatic standards the display this evening was completely unacceptable. That Trump is an arrogant egotistical bully etc is not disputed. Reality check - Trump will be around for the next four years. He is the most powerful man in the world. Even his early demise, through whatever cause, would simply promote Vance - no greater an attractive prospect. I am left with a number of observations or questions: - Trumps behaviour will have done nothing to enhance his image - whilst I sympathise with Zelensky, he did nothing to defuse the argument - normally these "deals" are done before the final signing - what happened this time - Zelensky (as Trump noted) has no cards to play - no US support = defeat - if a deal is done, US support may be forthcoming or their investment will be at risk - no matter how reprehensible Putin may be, you need to talk to him to negotiate - Ukraine is 5000 miles and a big ocean away from the US and not part of NATO - Ukraine is on the edge of Europe - Europe needs to step up not the US - Zelensky may even have engineered a public argument to get better terms (unlikely?) Zelensky is between a rock and a hard place - sacrificing any part of Ukraine will be seen as a defeat, no realistic prospect of defeating Russia alone, no likelihood of US or Europe providing sufficient support for fear of WW3, probable defeat if US or Europe withdraw support. I suspect it will be difficult for Zelensky to compromise. Possible outcome - Zelensky stands down, replacement and Trump negotiate a deal over the next few weeks. Trump may give a bit preferring history records his success as peacemaker rather a loud mouth who failed to deliver! I do not regard myself as a Trump apologist - merely a realist. |
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 21:56
Trump - Fullchat
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"- whilst I sympathise with Zelensky, he did nothing to defuse the argument" To be fair he didn't get the opportunity as he was being overtalked most of the time by two people and, whilst he has a good command of the English language it is not his first language. That should have never been publicly played out. I would like to think that this was totally orchestrated with Zelensky being complicit as part of a master plan. But i think I'm being overly optimistic. |
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 22:11
Trump - zippy
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>>But i think I'm being overly optimistic. In agreement with you: I fear so. This was set up from the initial insult by the journalist over his lack of suit. They knew full well his outfit is echoing Churchill's boilersuit. This was orchestrated to humiliate Zelensky and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Zelensky's "buttons" are well known by Russia and pointers were sent to the the Americans. |
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New Fri 28 Feb 25 22:30
Trump - Zero
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>> This was set up from the initial insult by the journalist over his lack of >> suit. It really does look like a set up planned mugging, the suit comment from some bloke looks set up, vance then kicked in in a co-ordinated way, and Zelensky was forced on the defence. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 09:45
Trump - sooty123
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x.com/drewharwell/status/1895547272324387078?t=SxUDkrKnBYlW-JHsWPaJ8g&s=08 Looks like it may have been a set up. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 09:58
Trump - Terry
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The initial question and Vance comments may have been a set up (who knows) but Zelensky could have responded better. Trump comments come from temper - I suspect he would far rather appear the dominant, sophisticated "statesman", than an ill tempered or angry buffoon. He or his advisors would know that behaviour would play poorly to a global audience, even if US viewers were convinced by his sincerity (I doubt many were). Trump is so used to deference he has simply lost any ability to control his emotions - almost childlike albeit with far greater consequences. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 10:52
Trump - CGNorwich
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I think this episode marks the end of an era for the Western alliance and NATO. Trump clearly has no wish to defend or be involved with Europe. Europe can no longer depend on US. support . and we may indeed see the US supporting Russia against Europe. Who can now believe that if the US moves into Lithuania or Poland the US would honour its commitment under clause 5? |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 16:18
Trump - zippy
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One could almost imagine the impossible... In a combined / planned attack: Russia attacks Finland, Poland and the Baltic states. America invades Canada. Which front does what is left of NATO fight on? America provides logistical support for Russia. (Starlink is already being used by them.) Last edited by: zippy on Sat 1 Mar 25 at 16:18
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 18:47
Trump - Manatee
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I would say there was something going on there whether or not it was intended to play out quite that way. If Trump wants to walk away from Ukraine, and by implication Europe, he needs it to look as if they deserve it. Starting with saying Ukraine started it (which I noted Vance contradicted, intentionally or otherwise); then picking a fight and calling Zelensky disrespectful etc., and "throwing him out" of the White House. Americans take insults to their country much much seriously that Brits. They are painfully patriotic, and we know how dangerous that is. MAGA was a brilliant slogan, that sort of sentiment would be received cynically here but they lapped it up. Despicable Vance may be, but I'm pretty sure he has the higher IQ of the pair of them. He's very articulate and a good debater who definitely came out ahead with Tim Waltz. Obviously I desperately hope they will crash and burn but I fear that will require some revolting Republicans and there's not much sign of that. Repulsive yes, but not yet ready to revolt. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 20:29
Trump - Kevin
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Well, from reports in the US and Ukraine it's beginning to look like this whole goddam mess has come about because Trump, Rubio and Vance either haven't been telling the Ukrainians what they're up to and why, or they haven't made sure that it was understood. Whether that was intentional or not I don't know. I'm inclined to believe the former. Rubio and Trump's team have been saying that they haven't criticised Putin because that would have caused Putin to refuse any meeting. They said that they've been talking to Zelensky behind the scenes but he's been 'awkward'. Everything they've done up to now has been to try and get everyone around the table and Zelensky wanting security guarantees now is premature. Security issues could be addressed as talks proceeded and simply signing the agreement would have immediately made the US an interested party. One media talking head put it a bit bluntly saying, "All he had to do was put on a tie, turn up and sign the agreement, say thank-you, have lunch and leave." The reaction in Ukraine appears to be similar to the rest of Europe (with the exception of Hungary and Slovakia) - that Trump is much too close to Putin. That Zelensky is right to want something concrete before signing away mineral rights and that he was set up by Vance. I don't think Trump will walk away from trying to get a peace deal but they will try and somehow cut Zelensky out of the loop. That's not going to work because even Zelensky's opposition in Ukraine are on his side with this one. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 20:51
Trump - Manatee
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>>All he had to do was put on a tie, turn up and sign the agreement, say thank-you, have lunch and leave." Maybe, but who in their right mind, however desperate, would trust Trump and Vance? We don't really know what was meant by "signing over mineral rights" do we? Irrevocably doing so without a guarantee would seem foolish, although I suppose the USA can't collect on it if Ukraine falls into Russian control. Maybe the US interest could have been established by some sort of letter of intent, or a memorandum of understanding that could have included something on security. But I don't see how this can be negotiated in public. Whatever Trump's intentions that was surely a cock-up. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 21:46
Trump - Kevin
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>Maybe, but who in their right mind, however desperate, would trust Trump and Vance? I think that's the crux of the matter. There's been bad blood between Zelensky and Trump since the 2019 phone call so Zelensky is all too aware of how Trump works. I haven't worked out yet exactly where Vance fits in in Trump's administration. The US Vice President usually takes a back seat but it looks like he's been given carte blanche to stir up as much trouble as he wants. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 22:07
Trump - Kevin
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I think the international reaction has surprised Trump and Vance but they want to save face. Ukranian media reporting that an unnamed European official has now told reporters that the White House has privately signalled that it wants a public apology from Zelensky to 'mend fences'. An easy solution for Zelensky that costs nowt but should earn him a bit more slack from the White House. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 22:17
Trump - zippy
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>> Maybe, but who in their right mind, however desperate, would trust Trump and Vance? >> Exactly. With Trump and Vance in power NATO is history. You cannot trust them to honour their commitments. >> We don't really know what was meant by "signing over mineral rights" do we? Irrevocably >> doing so without a guarantee would seem foolish, although I suppose the USA can't collect >> on it if Ukraine falls into Russian control. >> Guarantees are worthless. Ukraine had guarantees from the 1990's that Russia, UK and USA would protect them if they gave up their nukes. Look where that got them. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 12:01
Trump - Kevin
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| Not to worry, Putin has offered to mediate a peace deal between the US and Ukraine. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 14:18
Trump - Zero
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| stoptrump.org.uk/petition-cancel |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 15:48
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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Zelensky should NEVER have agreed to debate with Trump in front of the cameras, particularly when the meeting was going out live. Trump is a showman and his only interest was how he was going to come across to his supporters and to the rest of the world. I'm sure if they had spoken behind closed doors the demeanor and the outcome would have been a lot different. Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Sat 1 Mar 25 at 15:48
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 16:14
Trump - smokie
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| ... also if that super t*** Vance hadn't been there. He just stokes it up. Despicable man. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 17:12
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> ... also if that super t*** Vance hadn't been there. He just stokes it up. >> Despicable man. In what part of the political canon is talking to the elected leader of a sovereign state like Vance did acceptable. |
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New Sat 1 Mar 25 21:36
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> >> In what part of the political canon is talking to the elected leader of a >> sovereign state like Vance did acceptable. >> Whatever your views on the lady, can you imagine anyone talking to Maggie T like that? The walls would have been running with blood. |
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 09:14
Trump - smokie
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I see he's now stopped all aid to Ukraine. What a nasty man he is. I wouldn't be surprised if someone from one of the countries suffering from his bullying takes a pop at him before too long. |
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 09:30
Trump - tyrednemotional
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If you take a considered view of it, then he's right in some contexts. If nothing else changes and arms continue to be supplied to Ukraine, then the war isn't going to finish any time soon. Just about everyone wants peace (I suspect even, for the time being at least, Putin) so something needs to change, a la Gordian knot. Three years of same old is more than enough. Problem with the US's (Trumps) approach is that it is (at least apparently) very one-sided, encompassed in nastiness and personal animosity and is a violent swing from one historical extreme to the other. Not including the (very) interested parties in the process isn't helping at all. The wider political/strategic fallout having got most of European politics in a tail-spin doesn't help either. So, whatever you think about everything, he is correct in thinking that peace is only going to come with some significant change, and that means prompting a way of ending the conflict. Underlying principle - correct; route to getting there - fundamentally flawed to external eyes. I suspect he might shortly get diverted by the fallout from the tariffs. |
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 10:52
Trump - smokie
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| That may well be but it's not just the Ukraine. Anything which doesn't suit him he just blusters and throws his weight around, introducing tariffs, banning stuff, dismantling organisations until he gets his way |
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 11:17
Trump - CGNorwich
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The sad fact is that other countries are no longer able to trust the United States Why would any country now commit to any treaty or trade deal when it can be torn up overnight? The USA is now committed to isolationism. We need to learn to live without them. |
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 11:39
Trump - zippy
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>>We need to learn to live without them... Perhaps we should take a (maple) leaf out of the Canadians' book and boycott US products? Shame that we've allowed them to integrate in to our society so much with phones, TV channels, computers, software, cars etc. |
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 12:24
Trump - smokie
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| I'm not convinced by that kind of protest 0 for each 1 person who does it I reckon there are at least 1000 who dgas and would carry on as normal. See also climate control. |
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 12:50
Trump - zippy
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>> I'm not convinced by that kind of protest 0 for each 1 person who does >> it I reckon there are at least 1000 who dgas and would carry on as >> normal. See also climate control. >> I agree normally, but there are videos on YT of Canadian supermarkets with shelves full of unsold USA fruit whilst product from elsewhere has been sold. Tesla sales have also taken a bashing Europe wide, though I suspect some of this has come from the rather good value Chinese imports, and I believe that one of the blokes here has one that he's pleased with ;-D |
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 13:06
Trump - Manatee
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>> I see he's now stopped all aid to Ukraine Which is really serious. He warned Europe last time that they needed to pay for their own defence. The problem now is that Russia will 'win' in Ukraine, install a puppet leader in what's left of it, and quite possibly roll through Moldova. The Baltic countries are in NATO but NATO is a busted flush without the US. For anyone who is unaware, the deal was that if a NATO member was invaded by Russia, the US would fire a nuclear weapon at them. MAD of course but the deterrent somehow delivered 80 years of relative peace. No one can now think the US will stop Putin taking Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia which were all part of the Soviet Union. It looks as if Europe would be prepared to fight with Ukraine but whether it can is questionable. Five Eyes, the satellite network, and supplies of weapons all depend on the US. It really looks as if Trump wants to ally with Putin. Putin will no doubt give him a deal on minerals for delivering Ukraine. Two former Soviet spies claiming Trump was recruited by the KGB in 1987 sounds like a grand conspiracy theory, but even if it's not true it might as well be. It looks as if the bust up triggered by Vance was planned. The MAGA's will cheer at Trump dumping Zelenskyy, without a thought for the consequences. While we're in this unthinkable world, it might not be a bad idea for the European leaders to talk to China now. They are a real power, unlike Russia which is just 140m people and a ruined economy if you don't count 6,000 nuclear weapons. |
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 13:26
Trump - zippy
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>> He warned Europe last time that they needed to pay for their own defence. And we were mad for not stepping up then, but hindsight is 20/20. (I miss the age when the UK lead in jet fighter research before the politicians cancelled projects left right and centre). >> For anyone who is unaware, the deal was that if a NATO member was invaded >> by Russia, the US would fire a nuclear weapon at them. MAD of course but >> the deterrent somehow delivered 80 years of relative peace. Trump has said he wants to unilaterally remove his nuclear weapons!!! Plus, their forces have been told not to respond to Russian cyber attacks! >> Two former Soviet spies claiming Trump was recruited by the KGB in 1987 sounds like >> a grand conspiracy theory, but even if it's not true it might as well be. See above. When I was in Chicago, an American lecturer told me: "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck!" >> While we're in this unthinkable world, it might not be a bad idea for the >> European leaders to talk to China now. Considering the current Chinese economy, a threat of tariffs from Europe could focus their attention. Last edited by: zippy on Tue 4 Mar 25 at 13:28
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 16:36
Trump - Terry
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Bluntly, Zelensky and Ukraine have do whatever the US wants - Ukraine and ultimately Europe are too reliant on US military tech - satellites, missile systems, ammunition etc etc. Trump is a thoroughly unpleasant, egotistical bully - but does have all the cards. Might is right - not always moral or decent. He may be so unstable such that even those in his own party may start to question his capacity to lead - it's all gone pear shaped in Gaza, threatening US campuses if there are protests, possible profiteering in cryptocurrency, appointment of Musk etc. Getting close to martial law in the US??? Let's hope the Ukraine conflict is soon resolved - we still don't know what, if anything, Trump has agreed with Putin and whether it will be even vaguely acceptable. What this has done is disrupt the relatively stable geo-political balance that has existed for decades. We can no longer trust the US under Trump. Europe need to step up domestic military production to limit reliance on US. Europe needs a coherent defence capacity On an almost more trivial level: - tariff barriers to match those imposed by US immediately - Zelensky to get Nobel peace prize, not Trump - Europe to rapidly sign trade deals with Canada and Mexico - Europe to initiate discussions on trade, technology etc with China - de-risk reliance on US tech giants and tax them properly |
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New Tue 4 Mar 25 17:31
Trump - zippy
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>>- tariff barriers to match those imposed by US immediately Yep >>- Zelensky to get Nobel peace prize, not Trump Brilliant! Just watch him throw his rattle out of the pram and try to cancel the Nobel organisation! >>- Europe to rapidly sign trade deals with Canada and Mexico Yep >>- Europe to initiate discussions on trade, technology etc with China Yep. They're already building our nuclear power station. Why not more? >>- de-risk reliance on US tech giants and tax them properly Been saying that for years. Count intergroup cost transfers as not eligible for tax relief. |
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New Wed 5 Mar 25 21:27
Trump - sooty123
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>> >> He warned Europe last time that they needed to pay for their own defence. >> >> And we were mad for not stepping up then, but hindsight is 20/20. >> >> I think there were plenty at the time who warned about it low defence spending in Europe, however it was easier for the politicians to ignore and hope for the best. Now collectively the bill will be in the hundreds of billions. |
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New Wed 5 Mar 25 22:53
Trump - Kevin
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Bit like the folks who go on their hols without buying travel insurance. Can't we crowdfund some weapons and squaddies? |
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New Thu 6 Mar 25 14:28
Trump - Bobby
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Every morning I wake and hope that someone has taken out Trump or Musk. Surely there is a martyr out there willing to do it? Maybe even someone in the close security division. |
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New Thu 6 Mar 25 14:44
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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>> Every morning I wake and hope that someone has taken out Trump or Musk. >> >> Surely there is a martyr out there willing to do it? Maybe even someone in >> the close security division. >> The problem with that is in the present climate you could end up with people even more extreme than those two. |
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New Thu 6 Mar 25 16:14
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> The problem with that is in the present climate you could end up with people >> even more extreme than those two. That. Exactly. If Trump goes his veep is Vance. Even if there were an assassins dream of getting both with one bullet I'm not sure third in line would be an improvement. He's captured the Republican party. |
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New Thu 6 Mar 25 17:34
Trump - Manatee
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I'm.disgusted with the Republicans but also with the Dems who seem completely supine. I'm properly worried now. Trump is praising the Russians while trying the ruin the Canadian economy. I predict Greenland will come back as well if it hasn't done so while I'm writing this. |
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New Thu 6 Mar 25 17:45
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> I'm.disgusted with the Republicans but also with the Dems who seem completely supine. The whole of the USA seems to have become supine. Use by those with resources of first amendment rights to criticise Trump seems to have stopped. |
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New Thu 6 Mar 25 20:11
Trump - maltrap
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Trump’s policy is “Make America Great Again” And **** everyone else. |
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New Thu 6 Mar 25 20:49
Trump - tyrednemotional
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| According to reports, Trump is dialling down Musk's authority on hiring and firing. Has the fallout begun? |
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New Thu 6 Mar 25 20:57
Trump - James Loveless
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"Trump's policy is 'Make America Great Again'" I'm not sure that's true and I'm not sure he believes it. It strikes me he's where he is because he loves power and money and they are the only things that matter. I don't think he gives a s*** about American citizens. He says what he says to energise his supporters and he does what he does to line his coffers. However, maybe it won't work out the way he assumes. The stock markets have weakened, prices have risen. There are suggestions economic growth might be negative in Q1 2025. I'm no economist, but tariffs ain't gonna help; there are reports Canada is considering stopping the export of electricity to the US. Trump called for Congress to pass "tax cuts for everybody", but his proposed tax plan shows that it would benefit higher-income households. A lot of people are going to be unhappy. In addition, he has made it clear who he stands for: corrupt billionaires, ultra-wealthy scam artists, and Vladimir Putin. Even Republicans are getting uneasy. Last edited by: James Loveless on Thu 6 Mar 25 at 20:59
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New Thu 6 Mar 25 21:07
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> >> Even Republicans are getting uneasy. >> That will be his downfall. When his core support sees a drop in living standards they will turn on him with a vengence. |
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New Sat 8 Mar 25 17:11
Trump - CGNorwich
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| www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr52q7l6drdo.amp |
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New Sat 8 Mar 25 20:20
Trump - Bromptonaut
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| Oh dear, how sad..... |
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New Sat 8 Mar 25 20:24
Trump - Zero
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| Thats actually counter productive, in fact feeds trumps agenda and gives him perceived credibility with his acolytes. |
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New Sat 8 Mar 25 22:32
Trump - tyrednemotional
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr52q7l6drdo.amp >> ....amateurs... www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/03/08/elon-musk-tesla-protest-violence-vandalism/ |
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New Tue 11 Mar 25 09:13
Trump - smokie
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At least there is one sensible Vance in the world www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm2yl5kevrpo |
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New Wed 19 Mar 25 09:26
Trump - CGNorwich
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Another triumph for the master of the deal then. Putin reestablished on the world stage. Minimal if any progress towards a cease fire in the Ukraine and the war rages on. War in the Middle East looks further from a settlement than ever. |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 09:35
Trump - Manatee
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Trumps tariff calculations. Said to be based on (trade deficit with country)/(USA imports from country). There is an actual formula with greek letters in it that makes it look more complicated, which Trump has certainly not invented. But he is clearly being humoured by people who know better, assuming he actually has any qualified economic advisers. Trump treats a trade deficit as a 'loss', a cost to the USA. Has anybody told him that it probably has more to do with the USA having more purchasing power than most other countries? Or the relative strength of the USD? Or the fact that, in the case of Canada, the USA is buying a lot of resources, not manufactures. He claims they are subsidising Canada at $200bn per year, by which he means the trade deficit. Which is only 70 billion anyway, and even less if services are included. He might or might not be playing his famous 4D chess, but it's hard to see the upside of total unpredictability as to what will happen next week. I think they are just breaking the system. I said they were Nazis in the making and I haven't changed my mind. Time to wake up, America. Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 3 Apr 25 at 09:37
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 09:44
Trump - smokie
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| Aside from his loyal followers, do you think the concept of tariffs has any support in the wider republican party? I.E. if he got replaced from some reasons (which won't happen I know) is it likely to be a party policy? |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 10:02
Trump - Manatee
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Protectionism always has appeal, especially when the rest of the world has been positioned as spongers and parasites. The is usually an equilibrium to these things and when every parameter has changed, it will have been lost. There will be a new one. People have made projections but it's largely guesswork, necessarily. |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 10:07
Trump - Zero
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>> Aside from his loyal followers, do you think the concept of tariffs has any support >> in the wider republican party? I.E. if he got replaced from some reasons (which won't >> happen I know) is it likely to be a party policy? Republican* policy is entirely rapid short term knee jerk, depending on how mr and mrs bubba feel. If they start to whine about their truck being 15k$ more expensive, or their ammo going up by 15 bucks a box, then policy will change. *the new Trump accolyte dominated party. |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 15:35
Trump - zippy
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>>truck being 15k$ more expensive... Apparently they think the exporter will pay these tariffs. It's the end user that ends up paying them through higher shopping prices. |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 19:47
Trump - Kevin
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I find it amusing that the loudest squeeling is coming from those who have been only too happy to use tariffs to supposedly 'protect' their own industries. The EU has a large database of tariffs for imported goods that varies by country of origin. ( ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/taric_consultation.jsp?Lang=en# ) For example, the EU tariff on American vehicles or parts is 10% plus VAT, so a minimum of 25%. The US tariff on EU cars and parts was 2.5% plus local sales tax. |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 21:28
Trump - zippy
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>>Plus VAT That's not a difference though is it. All car parts will have VAT added, wherever they are from, so in that respect it's a level playing field, unless you are saying 10% + say 20%VAT = 12%. Either-way, Trump has imposed tariffs where there is approximately equal trading (the UK is broadly equal) and has hit the economy of an awful lot of countries who now won't be able to buy as many US goods as before. He has even implemented tariffs on countries that have free trade agreements with the USA! A sensible person may have implemented incremental tariffs over a period to gauge reaction of the markets over a period of time and adjust accordingly rather than acting as a loud mouth bully. His mismanagement / bullying attitude has cost financial pain to multitudes of peoples pension funds. |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 21:32
Trump - Terry
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>> For example, the EU tariff on American vehicles or parts is 10% plus VAT, so >> a minimum of 25%. The US tariff on EU cars and parts was 2.5% plus >> local sales tax. VAT is a sales tax payable on goods irrespective of whether they are imported or domestically produced, not a tariff. That Trump assumes otherwise is part of his fantasy game in which he makes up assumptions to get the answer he wants. Challenge him and immediately be labelled "fake news". Selling MAGA or MAWA (wealthy) to his supporters is easy - act tough, blame foreign governments and immigrants. Tariffs will damage world trade which in time will find a new equilibrium - unless he changes his mind again next week. He has been in power for less than three months - long enough to create chaos and radically change the status quo - but not long enough to be proven to have failed. When US inflation hits those struggling on low incomes, Ukraine and Middle East fail to find a peace settlement, mid-terms loom, etc his policies may start to erode support - even amongst Republicans! |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 23:38
Trump - Kevin
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A tariff is a tax exactly the same as VAT. You can call it anything you want or collect it however you like but it is still a tax. No difference whatsoever to the consumer. Trump has taken the simplistic view by using the total of all costs applied by each country to imported American goods including all taxes, the value of any subsidies or relief that domestic producers may receive, plus the estimated value of any trade barriers imposed. He could have done what most other countries do and apply different tariffs to an endless list of equivalent goods from different sources, eg. the EU has different tariffs for electric vehicles depending on whether they are produced in China or Japan or Korea or elsewhere but that would have taken months if not years to implement. >He has been in power for less than three months - long enough to create chaos >and radically change the status quo.. The status quo needs changing. |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 23:47
Trump - smokie
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So when Lis Truss tried changing the status quo here no-one liked it. What he's doing is not dissimilar but with a global rather than national impact. They both seem uncaring about the impact of their actions. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 09:04
Trump - Zero
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>> A tariff is a tax exactly the same as VAT. You can call it anything >> you want or collect it however you like but it is still a tax. No it's not, absolutely not. VAT is a sales tax, on goods, EVEN IF PRODUCED AT HOME. A tariff is a sales tax on goods ONLY IMPORTED. There is a difference to the consumer, they have the ability to avoid it. You don't with VAT. Don't forget some US states have varying rates of sales tax as well on goods sold. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 4 Apr 25 at 09:05
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 09:23
Trump - CGNorwich
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| Surely VAT is payable on all imported goods as well as those manufactured in the U.K. If you want to buy a toaster say you will pay 20% VAT wherever it was made. You cannot avoid it. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 10:41
Trump - Bromptonaut
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>> A tariff is a sales tax on goods ONLY IMPORTED. Is it even a sales tax? I'd expect it to be levied on the importer at the time goods arrive in the US. I've never seen 'import duty' as an item at the point of sale in retail premises. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 11:22
Trump - Kevin
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>No it's not, absolutely not. It is a tax on the consumer that goes straight into Govt. coffers, exactly the same as VAT. If I want to buy parts for my Z28 it makes no difference to me if the import tariff is 10% and VAT 20% or the other way around, the end price is the same.(Other than VAT being charged on top of the import tariff). |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 12:27
Trump - zippy
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If you buy an imported product that costs £100, plus 10% duty and 20% VAT the price is £132 to you. If you by a domestic product that costs £100 plus VAT the price is £120. The difference is £12. Not the £32 that Trump has been claiming, but to say otherwise is apparently "fake news"! Meanwhile my drawdown fund is down 5%. Great! |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 12:43
Trump - Zero
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>> >No it's not, absolutely not. >> >> It is a tax on the consumer that goes straight into Govt. coffers, exactly the >> same as VAT. If I want to buy parts for my Z28 it makes no >> difference to me Well its gonna make a difference to bubba on parts for his Silverado. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 13:09
Trump - Kevin
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>Well its gonna make a difference to bubba on parts for his Silverado. That's Bubba's problem - he voted for Trump, he can pay the price. Although I suspect that if the tariffs make corporate America think twice before offshoring every job they can he might see it as a price worth paying. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 13:38
Trump - Biggles
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| You might just as well say that income tax is a tariff because it takes money out of your pocket which you could otherwise use to buy more MAGA hats. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 13:52
Trump - Kevin
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| Income tax does not affect the sticker price of your MAGA cap. Tariffs do. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 13:59
Trump - Biggles
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| According to Trump, a trade balance surplus is a tariff. How does this affect the sticker price? |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 15:04
Trump - Kevin
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> According to Trump, a trade balance surplus is a tariff. How does this affect the > sticker price? You'll have to ask him - I'm only saying that a tariff is a tax. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 16:25
Trump - Biggles
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| Only if it is paid. If JLR don't sell any of their vehicles because of the 25% tariffs, the US revenue receives nothing. |
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New Sat 5 Apr 25 11:14
Trump - Kevin
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>Only if it is paid... The primary intent isn't to raise revenue. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 09:11
Trump - CGNorwich
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>> >> The status quo needs changing. >> Yes. The super wealthy like Trump and Musk the USA need to get used to a less extravagant life style and those living in the poorer countries of the world need a larger share of the cake. Trump of course believes in the exact opposite. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 09:20
Trump - Zero
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>> >> >> >> >> The status quo needs changing. >> >> >> Yes. The super wealthy like Trump and Musk the USA need to get used to >> a less extravagant life style and those living in the poorer countries of the world >> need a larger share of the cake. >> >> Trump of course believes in the exact opposite. The irony is of course, is that the Major US corporates are exploiting other parts of the world to maximise profits on goods sold to the US public. Countries latch onto this to subsidise those very same goods and hence US corporates. Trump cannot grasp this (to be fair he is not the only one) because he is a US capitalist. |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 21:58
Trump - Biggles
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| The vehicles with the highest sales figures in the US are their trucks, which have a tariff rate of 25%. They are as protectionist as any other country. |
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New Thu 3 Apr 25 23:27
Trump - Kevin
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>They are as protectionist as any other country. But not to the same extent until now and suddenly people start moaning because he's doing the same as everyone else. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 17:26
Trump - Manatee
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>> >They are as protectionist as any other country. >> >> But not to the same extent until now and suddenly people start moaning because he's >> doing the same as everyone else. There is absolutely no possibility that Trump is right about restoring US manufacturing Two things. He is not doing the same as anyone else. His tariff calculations defy any explanation that makes sense. China sells the US $401bn. of stuff. US sells China 134bn. Difference 267bn. Trump sees this as China stealing/tariffing the USA by 267bn. because 267bn more has gone to China than came to USA. He ignores what else came to the US (furniture, electronics, cars) in return for the extra 267bn. His base tariff calculation therefore is 267bn which 67% of the 401bn. which he divides by ~2 and comes up with 35%. He doesn't see the goods, only the money. Nobody understands this or can explain it properly. Why they are all nodding along with Trump is a mystery. I'm sure they all hope somebody else will stop him. Second thing Trump believes this will bring about a reset and result in restoring American manufacturing because it will result in people making 'stuff' in America instead of buying them from China et al. - There's a big problem here in that the US has neither resources nor capacity to do this. - The countries he has tariffed are retaliating in kind so to import those resources will not be economic. -Manufacturing capability will take years to build requiring investment - In theory, American manufacturers should now be racing to invest to cash in on this huge opportunity. I don't think they will, because they will simply not take the risk that Trump won't change his mind now, in a month, or in a year. Buffett has shown his hand here by going risk off 3 months ago, He expected an unmitigated disaster which is what this is. Trump thinks this will work. The trouble is, even if it did he would be dead by then. He won't admit he was wrong but it should soon be apparent that he is. Perhaps he will reverse the tariffs, claiming success of course - quite how I don't know, but that is his rule so he will. He is turning the US into one of those s-hole countries he talks about. - Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 4 Apr 25 at 17:28
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 19:14
Trump - Kevin
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>His tariff calculations defy any explanation that makes sense. I haven't even tried to work out how the level of tariffs were calculated because I don't think that the actual percentage is particularly meaningful. >The countries he has tariffed are retaliating in kind so to import >those resources will not be economic. I don't understand this bit. Can you rephrase? >Perhaps he will reverse the tariffs, claiming success of course.. A distinct possibility but I think we'll know pretty quickly if there's going to be a series of pig-headed Mexican standoffs or a return to common sense. You might want to start hoarding loo rolls just in case though. >He is turning the US into one of those s-hole countries he talks about. In parts of the US he's too late. It's already been done thanks to uncontrolled migration and the influx of hard drugs. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 20:58
Trump - Manatee
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>The countries he has tariffed are retaliating in kind so to import >those resources will not be economic. There's a whole can of worms here which I glossed over because I'm not doing a PhD. Where there is a big trade deficit is where the opportunities should be created because that is where the biggest tariff barrier has been erected. Take cars as an example. There is now a 54%? minimum total tariff barrier for Chinese cars. So in theory somebody may be incentivised to invest in making more cars in the US to fill the gap created by the deterrence of imports. But there is really no such thing as a car manufacturer now. More than ever they are car assemblers, with parts, parts of parts, and processes being produced and supplied all over the place. This putative manufacturer will have to source all these things. He is likely to find that even if the parts themselves don't have to come from China, many of the constituent materials and processes probably do, at least in the short term and unless a network of other investors decides to start making them in the US. It's already been pointed out that US car manufacturers get a lot of their parts and do bits os sub assembly and assembly in Canada and Mexico and these will potentially be tariffed more than once as they cross the border both by those countries with their retaliatory tariffs and the US itself. There is nothing remotely clever or right about what they are doing. It's clear that even the loyal sycophants are appalled, baffled, or both. Presumably they are just hoping he can be deposed or disposed of by somebody else so they don't have to put their heads above the parapet. You usually seem to think I'm hysterical but I don't think it's possible to overstate how bad this could be. He is actually inviting national leaders to come and negotiate with him and suggesting the first people to come will get the best deals. World's greatest negotiator? I don't think so. Mentally ill? Lacking capacity ? Definitely. |
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New Sat 5 Apr 25 11:02
Trump - Kevin
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>There's a whole can of worms here.. Ahh. I think I understand now what you were getting at. It wasn't clear to me from your first post. I don't think you're hysterical. I enjoy my banter with you because you think before you post. The ones who do annoy me are the ones (not usually on here) who froth at the mouth like Pavlov's dogs at the mere mention of Trump's name. |
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New Sat 5 Apr 25 13:23
Trump - Zero
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>> I don't think you're hysterical. I enjoy my banter with you because you think before >> you post. The ones who do annoy me are the ones (not usually on here) >> who froth at the mouth like Pavlov's dogs at the mere mention of Trump's name. As far as I am aware, frothing was not one of pavlovs criteria. |
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New Sat 5 Apr 25 14:22
Trump - Manatee
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>>As far as I am aware, frothing was not one of pavlovs criteria. Salivating vs. frothing at the mouth? I suppose if you are a dog expert or vet you have to distinguish between the two! |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 00:27
Trump - sooty123
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They are as protectionist as any other country. >> Indeed they've always been so, even more so now. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 13:20
Trump - CGNorwich
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Markets in free fall. FTSE down 3.9% Dow expected to open down 5% as China retaliates with 34% tarrif Recession coming at best. Depression at worst. 1930s all over again. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 14:50
Trump - zippy
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>> Markets in free fall. FTSE down 3.9% Dow expected to open down 5% as China >> retaliates with 34% tarrif >> >> Recession coming at best. Depression at worst. 1930s all over again. >> Yep. I dare not look at my pension pot later. I would find it hilarious if all output went to every other country in the world and not the USA, deliberately avoiding selling to the USA. The surplus could even reduce prices for everyone else and drive up prices in the USA due to scarcity there. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 16:20
Trump - smokie
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I may have had some fortunate timings with my pots 1) Due largely to Rachel's potential attack on tax free element I took out the entire tax free amount from my pots, which completed last month. The date of withdrawal from my main pension almost exactly matched it's highest ever single day value, thus maximising my take. 2) My big pot is with Royal London, in one of their governed funds. It was in the riskiest fund, which gave the greatest return. At the same time as taking out the tax free I moved it into the more cautious one, thinking I'd had a good run (nearly 14% in the preceding year) and something would hit the market sooner or later. On Wed I was quite a few thou better off than had I not moved it, which last night grew even more, and I'm sure that gap will widen today (but of course even the cautious fund is taking quite a hit though). Still a major concern though. FTSE, which is a bit of a barometer for my pension, is currently over 4% down today. It'll come back though, probably with a vengeance, when the turmoil settles and Trump has to roll back some of the changes, or we come to some sort of agreement, or whatever.. Last edited by: smokie on Fri 4 Apr 25 at 16:22
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 18:37
Trump - CGNorwich
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“It'll come back though, probably with a vengeance, when the turmoil settles and Trump has to roll back some of the changes, or we come to some sort of agreement, or whatever” I admire your optimism but I fear that we are merely at the brink of a deep and far ranging recession. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 18:48
Trump - Manatee
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>> I admire your optimism but I fear that we are merely at the brink of >> a deep and far ranging recession. >> I agree. There is no scenario here in which this is not a disaster. None of these tariffs is targeted in anyway at unfair trade practices, secret government subsidies, unfair treatment of the US etc. I don't think we can imagine how bad this could be. Even if he swept it all away tomorrow, tremendous harm has been done. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 18:59
Trump - zippy
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No tariffs against Russia (though no trade with Russia). Ruin the West' economy. Are we sure he isn't a Russian asset? |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 18:58
Trump - Terry
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Talk of turmoil and market collapse is typical media spin. The FTSE 100 share index only broke the 8000 barrier a year ago (22nd April 2024). It started to rise towards 8600-8800 from January 2025 - following Trumps election and despite his already open views on tariffs. The fall over the last day or so currently leaves it over 8000 - above the level a year ago. It may be a short term reaction, or possibly a more fundamental shift in values - even those in the market don't know - they simply respond to supply, demand and emotion. Congratulations on getting the timing right - sadly I failed having used my ISA allowance a couple of months ago on an index based investment. Annoying but hardly a problem as I see these sort of investments as very long term to balance loans and property assets, not part of the pension plan in which case I may feel rather differently. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 19:09
Trump - Zero
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>> Talk of turmoil and market collapse is typical media spin. >> >> The FTSE 100 share index only broke the 8000 barrier a year ago (22nd April >> 2024). It started to rise towards 8600-8800 from January 2025 - following Trumps election and >> despite his already open views on tariffs. Its supposed to grow in value, how much higher would it be if it hadnt had the fall, over trumps turmoil, (and covid come to that) Its a financial loss and confidence loss, a no matter how much you claim its "spin" The S&P, Dow, and NASDAQ are down to the lows of the Covid shock. Its not spin, merely factual. However, Its only money www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtFyP0qy9XU&ab_channel=Movieclips Last edited by: Zero on Fri 4 Apr 25 at 19:13
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 19:21
Trump - smokie
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If you look at the FTSE for the last 5 years it is almost hard to distinguish the Truss trough. rb.gy/6jqapo I know this is on a different scale but the market recovered from that loss fairly quickly and has risen significantly since. Once the dust has settled and the world understands the new order (and that's assuming it isn't reversed in any way) I am reasonably hopeful that this will turn out to be just another blip. Note hopeful not confident!! Last edited by: smokie on Fri 4 Apr 25 at 19:28
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New Sat 5 Apr 25 11:36
Trump - Manatee
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>> If you look at the FTSE for the last 5 years it is almost hard >> to distinguish the Truss trough. >> >> rb.gy/6jqapo >> >> I know this is on a different scale but the market recovered from that loss >> fairly quickly and has risen significantly since. The cause was removed fairly quickly. That's what needs to happen now. A nice short article on Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act. www.britannica.com/topic/Smoot-Hawley-Tariff-Act |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 19:33
Trump - Robin O'Reliant
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>> Talk of turmoil and market collapse is typical media spin. >> >> >> Economic forecasters exist to make horse racing tipsters look good. You've only got to look at how 99% of them were caught with their pants down when the banking system started to collapse to see that. In truth nobody knows what the effect will be till we get there. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 21:18
Trump - Manatee
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>> Talk of turmoil and market collapse is typical media spin. That's alright then. I wonder how much dodgy trading has been going on. Trump may be a lunatic but he will know very well what the impact of his announcement would be. And assuming he left his presentation aid lying around while waiting for the market to close I'm pretty sure a few of those crooks surrounding him, and perhaps the chief felon himself, will have set up their trades as well. If something changes his mind almost overnight the immediate damage may be limited. But if he sticks with this you're looking at a world recession. Inflation, stagnation, failing companies, credit crisis, whatever you can think of and worse. Starvation in the developing world if the ROTW is daft enough to be split. China has responded with a tit for tat 34% tariff, disregarding Trump's invitation to negotiate. Not targeted, calculated, or logical in any way except as to calling Trump's bluff. What do you think are the chances of Trump bamboozling Xi? |
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New Sat 5 Apr 25 09:35
Trump - Terry
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>> If something changes his mind almost overnight the immediate damage may be limited. But if >> he sticks with this you're looking at a world recession. Inflation, stagnation, failing companies, credit >> crisis, whatever you can think of and worse. Starvation in the developing world if the >> ROTW is daft enough to be split. >> >> China has responded with a tit for tat 34% tariff, disregarding Trump's invitation to negotiate. >> Not targeted, calculated, or logical in any way except as to calling Trump's bluff. What >> do you think are the chances of Trump bamboozling Xi? >> Trumps actions are economically illiterate and will ultimately be most damaging to his lower income supporters. Best current estimates are that the UK economy may take a hit of around 1%. An analogy - Mr/Mrs Average on £30k pa having an unexpected £300 bill - unwelcome but hardly catastrophic. "World recession", "stagnation", "starvation", "credit crisis" etc - is (IMHO) a gross overstatement. A few on the brink (countries and companies) will struggle or fail, most will adapt. |
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New Sat 5 Apr 25 10:36
Trump - Manatee
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You are betting a lot on this being reversed or substantially ameliorated very quickly. Of course there would be a new equilibrium but it will be very damaging and much less trivial than 1% tweak to GDP if this holds. I suggest looking at the causes of, and the scale of damage caused by, the great depression. We have a bias towards optimism because our generation in our bubble has not experienced the scale on which bad things can happen in the same way as our parents and grandparents. I am very hopeful that the nightmare will end soon but if it doesn't it will be more than a bump in the road. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 19:18
Trump - Kevin
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>Yep. I dare not look at my pension pot later. >I would find it hilarious if all output went to every other country in >the world and not the USA,.. Most pension companies offer a range of funds to suit a customer's risk profile and personal preferences. You could always contact them and tell them you don't want any of your money invested in feelthy American stocks. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 21:43
Trump - Manatee
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| US stocks by value are 70% of the world. |
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New Sat 5 Apr 25 09:21
Trump - Terry
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>> US stocks by value are 70% of the world. >> Not sure of the relevance of this save to stir anti US/Trump sentiment. The US stock market capitalisation is apparently 50% of the global total www.visualcapitalist.com/124-trillion-global-stock-market-by-region/ As the US share of global GDP is "just" 27%, I assume most listings on the US are companies the bulk of whose trade is outside the US. They choose to list in the US due to regulation (or lack of it), ease of raising finance, and volume of trade creating a robust market. Such companies are unlikely to choose India, China, Russia etc. A number of UK companies are listed in the US including Unilever, Shell, Astra Zeneca, HSBC, RTZ, Diageo, to name but a few. |
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New Fri 4 Apr 25 22:02
Trump - zippy
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| I shouldn't have looked! |
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New Sat 5 Apr 25 13:34
Trump - Zero
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| Markets can handle change, Its one of the reasons they exist in the first place. What they dont like and cant handle is FUD. Fear, uncertainty and doubt. Nothing will promote FUD more than unpredictable, badly planned and implemented, knee jerk, rapid, variable flavour of the month change. Everything Trump has done and is capable of doing again. |
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New Sat 5 Apr 25 14:33
Trump - Manatee
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>> Markets can handle change, Its one of the reasons they exist in the first place. True, but that's a bit like saying climate change won't endanger the earth. The extinction of human life won't rock the axis even one degree. >> What they dont like and cant handle is FUD. Fear, uncertainty and doubt. Nothing will >> promote FUD more than unpredictable, badly planned and implemented, knee jerk, rapid, variable flavour of >> the month change. Everything Trump has done and is capable of doing again. And just as capable of reversing at any time. Which you'd think very hard about if you were considering building a new US manufacturing facility under the shelter of the new tariff regime. Even if he doesn't relent, he's only there for four years. Not really long enough to build your factories, recover your investment, make your money and get out. The experiment has been done before, from about 1920-1934. |
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