Well more like a fleet of Captain Hindsightss, James Cameron being the latest.
Thanks God for experts though.
"Former Royal Navy submarine captain Ryan Ramsay has outlined some possible reasons for the implosion of OceanGate's Titan on its descent towards the wreck of the Titanic.
"...one of two things may have happened - the hatch with the 17 bolts used to seal the passengers in had failed, which caused the hull to collapse "because there's huge amounts of pressure, even halfway down.
"Another possibility is that there was a prior defect in the pressure hull itself, leading to the same result, he added."
I must admit to thinking what an awful way to go, if it hadn't imploded, just sitting, watching and waiting for your time.
It's awful for the relatives etc but it wouldn't have been on my bucket list, even if had known it was a thing, as I'm a scaredy cat where the sea is concerned.
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We know it imploded but the mechanism by which it did so is not known. Given the depth of the ocean in which it happened we may never know.
Doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable to work through the possibilities and apply learning to any other similar craft.
It was only after the second, at least, De Havilland Comet exploded in mid air that serious investigation as to how/why took place. Similar issues there with wreckage in deep water.
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>> It was only after the second, at least, De Havilland Comet exploded in mid air
>> that serious investigation as to how/why took place.
Indeed, and the lessons therein contained were completely ignored by the designers of this submersible. They were warned that carbon fibre was unsuitable for this application (stress micro cracking leading to water and microbes penetrating the composite), and the chosen shape (essentially a tube with stiff titanium ends) was also poor for high pressure. So they chose to deliberately bypass any suitable engineering compliance testing.
And here we are. What a surprise.
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There are reports that the US Navy's sonar detectors picked up the implosion event. They told the US Coast Guard who kept looking, because you have to be sure (false positives etc.).
Conspiracy theorists are claiming that the implosion news was withheld to deflect reporting of Hunter Bidens criminal cases.
You'd never have got me on one of those things either, I'm not keen on confined spaces at the best of times, that's going either up or down!
I guess of all the ways to go in that sort of situation, implosion sounds the best, if it is near instantaneous.
If it can be proved that the owners cut corners or ignored advice then they should be prosecuted and that's a good reason for recovering the machine if it's possible, but I suspect cost considerations will win out.
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 23 Jun 23 at 13:53
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> Doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable to work through the possibilities and apply learning
>> to any other similar craft.
>
Perhaps not enough will be found to draw any real conclusions. Although the CEO sounded a bit of a cowboy, he said something about rules and regulations stifling innovation. Yeah it's safe until its not.
I was a bit surprised there was much CF in it, very easy to damage and not know it.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 23 Jun 23 at 14:20
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"Carbon fibre" isn't a construction material in itself, it's just the strengthening element in a composite material with one or another resin. The resin, and how the fibres are laid, affect the strength of the finished structure.
It looks like an embarrassment from an engineering viewpoint, a structural failure that should have been designed out.
Trussineering. Sack the expert who will only tell us we can't do it, and try something new.
Tragic of course. I'd have been far too frit to go in it.
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>> "Carbon fibre" isn't a construction material in itself, it's just the strengthening element in a
>> composite material with one or another resin. The resin, and how the fibres are laid,
>> affect the strength of the finished structure.
Yes i was aware of that ;-)
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>> as I'm a scaredy cat
>>
Ah, so you're the one that identifies as a cat! :-)
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The Afrikaans word for octopus is seekat.
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Heavy sigh.
Yes, I am sorry these people died, but it was a tiny bit foreseeable, wasn't it?
This excursion was the modern day equivalent of the 18th century big game hunter safari. Men with too much money and time on their hands would go orf to foreign parts to kill dangerous wild animals. Very often things went well, so there would be a picture of our brave white man with his foot on the body of a dead tiger, or whatever. Sometimes things didn't go so well and his shot would miss, or the gun would jam. Exit white hunter.
This is what these guys have just done. Why couldn't they stick to fornication and drugs?
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This is what these guys have just done. Why couldn't they stick to fornication and
>> drugs?
>>
Probably done all that. I think these chaps are usually after the next big thing, beardy branson and his clan are similar.
I don't buy all this stuff about it being for scientific purposes, they should just own up and say it's risky tourism nothing more or less.
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Must have weird Kats in Afrikaa.
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They must have identified as dogs because anyone paying a six figure sum to go down in that Heath Robinson contraption was barking.
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A journey to the depths in a somewhat flaky craft is not the product of careful rational thought.
They did it because it is challenging, fun, exciting .......... because it's there,
It is the same behaviour which prompts attempts to summit Everest, do ultra marathons in the desert, compete in the IoM TT, row across the Atlantic in a punt etc etc.
That they perished in the attempt is not a reason to deny others a chance to be equally foolish or brave (depending on your point of view). They are grown ups making their own choices.
I doubt, had they discussed it, expected rescue if they failed. But the military and offshore drilling companies were no doubt happy to try - lots of brownie points if they succeeded, learning experience to better deploy in the future, and no loss of reputation if they failed.
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Challenging is when you attempt something with your own efforts.
Like rowing across the Atlantic, swimming the Channel ( big kudos to Mr Souness), the double amputee who recently scaled Everest.
Going below the surface in a potential death trap isn’t challenging because it’s out of your control....unless it’s to ovecome a personal fear of suchlike. Crackers more like.
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Sort of with you LL, I’ve tried and enjoyed hang gliding and kite surfing and I’d love to try a wing suit flight, but parachuting or bungee jumping hold no real appeal for me. If I’m not “driving” I’m not really up for it.
Doesn’t always go well even when I’m in charge of course, but I can’t blame anyone else. ;-)
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Wing suit flying....I’ve watched some amazing videos of those ‘pilots”.
Surprisingly, for someone who began rock climbing quite young, and enjoyed snow climbing in the Alps and elsewhere, I’m a big scaredy cat when it comes to bungee jumping, parachuting and hang gliding. I just couldn’t.
A very good pal is a regular hang glider and tells me I’d enjoy it...I wouldn’t. One of my best ever up in the air experiences was a dawn balloon ride in Arizona. A tiny basket, just 4 of us including the pilot, which made it incredibly manoeuvrable, descending to skim cacti and surprise wildlife enjoying their breakfast, before returning to altitude at a good rate of knots.
The company were called ‘2 FlyUs.com’. Highly recommended.
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>...enjoyed hang gliding and kite surfing...
Being a millionaire even has it's advantages when you're kite surfing.
tinyurl.com/4kbznhka
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What happens to the human body in such a catastrophic implosion? Presumably nothing recognisable left.
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Imagine a massive block of conrete hitting you at high speed.
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>>Imagine a massive block of conrete hitting you at high speed
From every direction.
Of course if there was a crack prior to implosion you may have been sliced in half by a massively powerful water jet.
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It's a bit like being vaporised apparently
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Friend of mine tried that, but he’s back on the cigs now.
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Massively sad incident of course. I heard that the lad didn't want to go and was terrified but in view of Father's day, he did it.
Another escapade to add to my list of " things I will not die from " Including Crocodile, Shark, Rocket, Eiger Nordwand and others.
I don't mind, for real excitement, a gentle stroll in Chatsworth followed by tea and cake at the farm shop. That's the limit of my risk taking !
Ted
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>> What happens to the human body in such a catastrophic implosion? Presumably nothing recognisable left.
This is a report with photos of an explosive decompression - with photos of bodies - and bits of bodies.
Only look if you want to look.
tinyurl.com/ywc5je5x
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>> This is a report with photos of an explosive decompression - with photos of bodies
>> - and bits of bodies.
That was sudden decompression not compression.
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>> What happens to the human body in such a catastrophic implosion? Presumably nothing recognisable left.
Apparently, the sudden increase in pressure ignites any hydrocarbons (think diesel engine) the most prolific being human fat. You did ask.
I've tried gliding. The aerotow was frightening before takeoff, like being behind a massive mowing machine with grass, dirt and stones being chucked at you.
I've tried hanggliding, injured my back with a bad landing, gave it up.
I've done one, solo parachute jump. Broke my ankle, landing on a rock, but at least I missed the greenhouse!
I've been involved around veteran aircraft. I'd never go up in one, there's a damn good reason so few are still flying.
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I've tried gliding. The aerotow was frightening before takeoff, like being behind a massive mowing
>> machine with grass, dirt and stones being chucked at you.
>>
I quite enjoyed it, up in no time and whisper quiet when you're up there.
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Wasn't there an ex-submariner on the forum a while back?
Old Navy I guess
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When The Queen decided that she needed me in the Armed Forces in order to save the country, I decide there were two things that I wasn't going to do -
1. I wasn't going down in a submarine, there wasn't too much risk of that as I was went in the army.
2. I wasn't going to jump out of an aeroplane - and I didn't.
That's all. Carry on.
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>> What happens to the human body in such a catastrophic implosion?
>>Presumably nothing recognisable left.
>>Apparently, the sudden increase in pressure ignites any hydrocarbons (think diesel engine)
>>the most prolific being human fat.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65934887
"What happens in an implosion?
When a submarine hull collapses, it moves inward at about 1,500mph (2,414km/h) - that's 2,200ft (671m) per second, says Dave Corley, a former US nuclear submarine officer.
The time required for complete collapse is about one millisecond, or one thousandth of a second.
A human brain responds instinctually to a stimulus at about 25 milliseconds, Mr Corley says. Human rational response - from sensing to acting - is believed to be at best 150 milliseconds.
The air inside a sub has a fairly high concentration of hydrocarbon vapours.
When the hull collapses, the air auto-ignites and an explosion follows the initial rapid implosion, Mr Corley says.
Human bodies incinerate and are turned to ash and dust instantly.
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>> Apparently, the sudden increase in pressure ignites any hydrocarbons (think diesel engine) the most prolific
>> being human fat. You did ask.
I guess if you could liquify uman beans you could run a non turbo XUD engine, you could fuel them on anything.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 26 Jun 23 at 08:49
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There is a simple temperature and pressure relationship - Gay-Lussacs law.
Assume inside the sub was 15PSI (surface pressure) and 20C. Assume pressure 12000ft down was 6000PSI. The result of an instantaneous increase in pressure would be to increase the internal temperature to 7700C immediately.
Same principal with a diesel engine where compression (typically 20:1) increases temperature to self ignite the fuel.
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>> There is a simple temperature and pressure relationship - Gay-Lussacs law.
>>
>> Assume inside the sub was 15PSI (surface pressure) and 20C. Assume pressure 12000ft down was
>> 6000PSI. The result of an instantaneous increase in pressure would be to increase the internal
>> temperature to 7700C immediately.
Well, except it's diluted with water at 4 degrees which will cool it before it gets hot. And the volume where the temperature would (theoretically) reach that level would be a small corner of the submarine. And I'm not sure you've done your calculation with the temperature in Kelvin. But Guy Lussac doesn't apply anyway as the volume will change, so it's a moot point.
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Capt Hindsight and the submersible - Bromptonaut
