No, nothing major like another place I could mention.
Over the next day or so the intention is to include a few extra forums in the list. One will be for non motoring related questions, which will include diy, gardening, electronic gadgets, best phone network and the like. We're also looking to include a thread where you can ask questions about computer problems, best printers, digital cameras etc.
We're looking for your ideas on how the forum should look and we want you to have some input as to what you think the forum needs. If you can think of some other sub forums to discuss or ask things, then fire away. We'll consider your suggestions, but that doesn't mean they'll be implemented.
Thanks, Webmaster.
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An off topic section may be good, just for random things it could be anything from job problems or to post interesting news articles etc.
As it is a new forum you need to be careful you don't make too many sub sections otherwise the place will just feel empty. For that reason maybe electrical computing should be in one separate sub forum rather than having different forums for different things? If the forum grows then more could be added.
Either way I think it has to be a better idea than what the other has with threads replacing subforums and getting chopped at 100 posts although that was always a unique charm too.
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...As it is a new forum you need to be careful you don't make too many sub sections otherwise the place will just feel empty...
I think that's right, although I think 'non-motoring questions' and 'computer-related questions' sub-forums might work.
They were quite popular at the other place, and it would save hunting for the thread when wanting to post a question if no one had for a few hours.
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>> Either way I think it has to be a better idea than what the other
>> has with threads replacing subforums and getting chopped at 100 posts although that was always
>> a unique charm too.
Perhaps it wasn't perfect, but I liked the fact that the Discussion home page told you whether there were new posts in both the motoring and non-motoring threads. If you have to go to another page to check for posts then I suspect people won't do it so often, and you won't get as many helpful responses to questions.
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I had just logged back in here to check whether it does that and I agree with you Focus.
Pat
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We could certainly have computer and general question threads for the time being, couldn't we?
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I too like the idea of an off topic type section. There were often times when I had something I would have liked to share with Backroomers under the mistaken impression that one or two of them would have lifted the corners of their mouths wryly for a nanosecond, but I coudn't twist it into "I have a Question".
I appreciate that if ever there were an argument for not having an off topic section here I think I just made it, but nonetheless it gets my vote.
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Even the BR mods thought that now and again
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Hmm.
I don't know about an OT forum. Personally I don't like them, and thought that IHAQ was an excellent alternative. Just enough OT to stop the place being sterile, without it being too much that it just becomes a general chat forum.
I never post in OT fora on other fora where I post. And it means there is a whole community - often with different people who only ever post OT - missed out by those who only post in the mainstream part.
Moreover, you end up with political and other bar-room arguments which lead to bad feeling and can be very difficult indeed to moderate.
Certainly don't have too many separate fora. Here is a forum with FIFTY ONE fora - quite ridiculous www.flyforums.co.uk/ . And for something that is supposed to be a "community" entire sections of community life can happen without other parts of the community knowing about it. That's 51 links to click and pages to load in order to find out what's happening... I think that two (or three) is absolutely more than enough.
Or at least, if you really must, have an option to view all threads on all fora at once.
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>> We're looking for your ideas on how the forum should look
Get rid of "view flat" completely, so that people respond to what they mean to respond to, not just any old post.
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>>Get rid of "view flat" completely
What, so that we have to click on each post separately??! If I had to click on fifty separate pages in order to read this thread so far, I wouldn't bother clicking on the second!
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In 6 or 7 years of active use of a very similar forum to this one, I can count the number of times I've willingly used "view threaded" on one hand. If a thread becomes particularly mangled it can be good to follow one particularly engaging strand in this way, but otherwise (for me at least) it's "view flat" all the time.
I do find "view threaded" useful when displaying Forum Search results, as it means only the post I was searching for is displayed.
- - - - -
This forum (with its basic, stripped-down form) is much quicker to load on my phone, btw! :-)
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I thought the new HJ layout was a good compromise between all-on-one-page flat and fiddly threaded.
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You mean how each post "overlaid" the previous and was indented slightly? Perhaps it would've helped.
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>> You mean how each post "overlaid" the previous and was indented slightly?
Yes, although that is a simplification - the indentation showed the threaded structure (as seen in 'threaded view'). So whether the next post was indented depended on whether it was a reply to the previous post. But it appeared to confuse people, so perhaps just plain flat and threaded options are better, even if it still confuses Pat people :-)
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Now look here Focus, I bet you can't find your way round an Eaton twin slpitter gearbox or blind side an artic in a narrow gateway!
I use threaded view on here but then I can't tell the difference:)
I just looked at the top of the page and it says threaded, so does that mean it is now flat and I hit the threaded button to get it threaded though???
Pat
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>> Now look here Focus I bet you can't find your way round an Eaton twin
>> slpitter gearbox or blind side an artic in a narrow gateway!
you win :-)
>> I just looked at the top of the page and it says threaded so does
>> that mean it is now flat and I hit the threaded button to get it
>> threaded though???
Correct - that's the link to change it to what it says, so you use flat view (as do I - great minds etc.)
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I've just tried it, now that would confuse me:)
Pat
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>> even if it still confuses Pat people :-)
>>
I tip my hat to a brave man. :-)
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>> >> even if it still confuses Pat people :-)
>> >>
>> I tip my hat to a brave man. :-)
I assume that as a female lorry driver Pat has taken a lot worse than anything I can give out :-)
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I would say, allow pictures. The web is about pictures. A picture is worth 1000 words. etc.
No problem to limit the size to avoid silly massive pics, but why not allow pics?
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>> allow pictures
Maybe in one forum only? I like the concise nature of this one but I also find it tricky to link to pictures in an easy manner, as did many other users judging by the mangled, extended links to photobucket, yfrog and flickr to name but three.
That, or maybe there is some way of minimising pictures in posts down to a little "+" icon unless the reader clicks to expand them?
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>> I would say allow pictures. The web is about pictures. A picture is worth 1000
>> words. etc.
This isn't the web :-)
Personally I think links to pictures are enough - the forerunner of this site was text based, and that was at least part of its appeal. It wasn't like other fora.
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Ling, your own site is terrific, an absolute hoot - but if you think this site should have pictures I'm afraid ... you just don't get it. IMHO.
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I like images in a forum... full size embedded ones not clickable thumbs. Most other forums I frequent use them and they massively enhance telling a story or showing an example.
When someone has a new car for example I'd like to see it... within the post not elsewhere.
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Argh! No pictures, only links, please.
*Most certainly* no:
Sigs.
Avatars.
Couloured blocks of quoted stuff.
"Smiley" things that come out as little pictures.
Any animation in any of the above.
Some forums become hideously disfigured by the above, and most are badly disfigured.
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Have no worry FT. sigs, avitars emicons and the like aren't on the list.
Pictures are a *possibility* though. One thing I've noticed on other forums is that people like to show off their cars, especially if they've just bought a new one (either new to them or brand new). It would have to be carefully monitored and maybe the pics would have to be delayed before making an appearance so that us mods could scrutinise them first to ensure they're not unsuitable, eg, pornographic, or breach copyright.
VxFan - Mod
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We have plans, but they don't include pictures in the forum. There will be plenty of other places you will be able to put pictures where they won't look rubbish or disrupt the nice flow of the forum.
Not a priority at the moment I'm afraid. Later in the year some time.
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>> We have plans but they don't include pictures in the forum. There will be plenty of other places you will be able to put pictures
That's what I meant.
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I'm not that fired up either way over images... it's just I like them myself. I would say though over many years of using forums that allow them I've never seen anything dodgy posted and 99% of the time they are folks own images so no copyright issues.
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I think photos are good in the right context - for those of you who use PH, you can insert photos into your posting. But then if someone replies and quotes your post, you get all the same photos again.
I liked the layout of the old site apart from all the ads. I liked IHAQ and CBQ being part of the normal discussion. I liked the chillout thread as well to put those thoughts that didn't fall into any other categories.
I don't have great technical knowledge so onlyposted there when asking questions rather than offering help so I very rarely strayed from Discussion. Thats the way I would like this site to go as well.
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Jeeez, It is hard to remember when I have encountered so many luddites.
Why no pictures? Of course this IS the web. I am looking at these posts, not listening to them on the radio! It's ridiculous not to use the full multimedia to advantage. How on earth can pictures offend anyone? There is no reason pics cannot be uploaded from local machines. They could easily be kept within the look and feel of the forum.
I didn't realise this would be a collection of ultra-traditionalists and creationists. Pictures exist, you know, you can't un-invent them. Earth to old fogies... you may as well read this forum in a dos screened command prompt window
Also, why on earth don't people publish their true identity, too? Most of the problem with aggression and bad feeling is that people are allowed to be anonymous. Is it so awful to be yourself?
It's about time some transparency was introduced into forums, IMHO. I would say: "If you're not prepared to say who is really speaking, then shut up", that would be my personal rule.
Just as on my letters page on my website, I publish 1,500 letters from customers and unless someone gives me a reasonable reason, I display the full name and address.
And allow (at least) pictures. Do you all browse the web in Lynx?
Even during the war, media contained pictures, you know. For luddites who can't bear to look at the new-fangled images, simply allow them to be turned off in the settings!
Sheesh!
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Pictures can slow things down, especially when viewing from a phone.
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So allow to turn them off in the settings for the millions of users who view the forum on phones.
Sheesh. So easy.
Yet you deny them to everyone just because you use a phone?
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Ling - pictures might be a slippery slope to a site that gives you a headache to look at and occasionally gets sent to you in a link with the words "OMG have you seen this shambles" or similar.
Last edited by: Subariquet on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 12:46
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Just want to say, I really hope this goes well. It's breath of fresh air so far. Good luck.
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>> Also why on earth don't people publish their true identity too?
There are very many reasons why this might be a bad idea. Note, when you publish something on the 'net, it's likely to be there forever, which is quite a long time.
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>> It is hard to remember when I have encountered so many luddites
A lot of us were drawn to the other place by the fact that it's affiliated with a broadsheet newspaper. This means that, rather than being a place for internet users to talk about motoring in the context of their online, fast-moving, techno-savvy lives, the forum is a place for broadsheet-reading motoring enthusiasts to use the internet in the context of their (some might say) slower-paced, less technologically cutting-edge world.
>> you may as well read this forum in a dos screened command prompt window
Ooh, can you do that in Windows XP? ;-)
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>> Even during the war media contained pictures you know. For luddites who can't bear to
>> look at the new-fangled images simply allow them to be turned off in the settings!
>>
>> Sheesh!
Ling - sorry to say this, but I do find the tone of your post a bit unpleasant. No problem with your idea, but I would much prefer you to back it up without what appear to be insults. People are different you know, and that's not always a bad thing :)
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>> Ling - sorry to say this but I do find the tone of your post a bit unpleasant.
Quite. This is a forum to have fun. Please leave any aggression or unpleasant feelings outside the door, next to the muddy boots and umbrella stand so they can be hosed down later.
Although we're going to not be quite so strict on moderation, we still expect members to show some etiquette and respect for others here.
Thanks, VxFan - Mod.
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I have to take issue with you Ling, I'm afraid.
I'm not a Luddite at all.
I don't entirely agree with pictures nor do I disagree with them. I would prefer to see just a link to them.
Does that make me a Luddite.....NO!
It makes me someone who is a founder member of another forum and has a trustees duty to post and moderate on it on a daily basis.
It allows pictures, avatars, smileys etc etc.
The BR, and now here, is somewhere I enjoy coming to for some sensible and humorous discussion, unhindered by all those distractions.
It's one of the reasons I stayed so long after my initial ( controversial) visit!
I don't want to see a rainbow of colour, a forum that takes ages to load because of pictures, and bandwith is expensive as well.
Well done for what we've got in less than 24 hours, a lot of work must have gone into this not to mention some money too.
Pat
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"I liked the layout of the old site apart from all the ads. I liked IHAQ and CBQ being part of the normal discussion. I liked the chillout thread as well to put those thoughts that didn't fall into any other categories."
Agree completely, Bobby. In fact, I think that there should be only one forum, with Technical and Discussion being on the same page.
" It is hard to remember when I have encountered so many luddites."
Delighted to meet you.
"I didn't realise this would be a collection of ultra-traditionalists and creationists. "
If we weren't ultra-traditionalists and creationists, we wouldn't have come here to enjoy the familiar surroundings of the wonderful software.
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>> I think that there should be only one forum with
>> Technical and Discussion being on the same page.
I posted only a few times on Technical (questions, not answers), and it looked like it had quite a high new topic rate, so your question dropped off the first page quite quickly if no one answered.
I think this would be a problem if Technical and Discussion were combined - the post rates might be similar, but I don't think there are as many new topics on Discussion, so topics tend to hang around longer, giving more opportunity for replies. (That's assuming many people only look at the first page of the list - I do.)
So I vote for separate Technical/Discussion.
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 13:53
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I used to check in with Technical most days to scan through the first three or four pages, in case anyone had a problem I could help with. Having driven many different old sheds and hung around the fringes of the motor trade for a long time I've seen most problems that may evade both those with no interest in the oily bits and those who left behind the art of bodging unreliable cars cheaply several years ago in favour of paying someone else to fix them properly. Also having spent most of the Noughties as a cab driver I am able to post with my experience of the likely problems with worn-out, very-high-mileage, modern machinery such as DPFs, DMFs, CR diesel etc.
The only point I would raise about it here is that it was obvious that a lot of new topics were posted by people who had been directed there from either the main website or the newspaper. No-one knows we're here with our wealth of experience!
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Yes it was the regulars who posted answers on HJ often. So the new ones stumble across his site and post and get an answer. If there are none of the regulars then people will stop asking questions.
Looks like the other site may be down for a little while - they've updated the post at the top I see. No timelines given.
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>> Agree completely Bobby
"Bobby"? Is that Pat's real name??
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>> >> Agree completely Bobby
>> "Bobby"? Is that Pat's real name??
I see the old threaded posts confusion is alive and well!
(It was BobbyG being referred to from further up the thread) ;-)
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>> (It was BobbyG being referred to from further up the thread) ;-)
...as you can see from wildernessman's quote; that generally helps avoid the confusion, but not always...
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>> (It was BobbyG being referred to from further up the thread) ;-)
Pah. It's like talking to an ancient and infirm person:
(imagine a cosy chat in progress over tea)
P: "Oh, what time do you..."
AAI: "I remember yesterday when..."
P: "Did you see whatnot on TV?"
AAI: "And then the dustman fell into the flower-bed! Ha ha!"
P: "Would you like another fairy cake?"
AAI: "Oh!! About 4 o'clock, I suppose."
It's hopeless.
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Hopeless, yes.
Would you like another fairy cake?
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Thank you. I'm thinking about the Scrappage Scheme at the moment, over a nice fresh hot cup of tea.
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>> we want you to have some input as to what you think the forum needs
And another thing. No "PM" system (whereby one contributor can send a "private message" to another). That can lead to serious abuse and manipulation "behind the scenes".
Sorry my contributions are all "Not..." - however, I hope that they are useful as part of the "general mix".
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I am absolutely sure it isn't the intention to have pm's on this site and that's fine.... however as with the photos it is a feature of most of the other forums I use and a fantastic benefit.
It enables you to give/receive specific and helpful advice that isn't appropriate to the open forum. When topics get too chatty it gives mods a route to direct folks to *continue by pm please*.
As with the photos I've never known it be a problem in any respect.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 14:31
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I'm no expert, but would embedded pictures take up mor bandwidth and slow things down?
They'd also reduce the the amount of written word per screen.
I have no problem with links to photos on other sites, it gives you the choice of of whether or not you want to open them.
I can't begin to imagine what resources in time and money must be spent to set up a new site like this. I'm grateful for those that have gone to the effort. I for one would welcome the presence of adverts to cover costs and remunerate the mods for their time.
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PMs are a very bad idea.
I think the technical questions should be in with all others. That said, there are probably going to be rather fewer technical questions than there used to be, on account of the traffic.
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>>> PMs are a very bad idea.
Out of interest please explain why??
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"I have no problem with links to photos on other sites, it gives you the choice of of whether or not you want to open them."
Exactly. Why have photos on the forum when it is easy enough to post links to them elsewhere?
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IME people tend to "gang up" against individuals, and collaborate "off-line" to form destructive alliances.
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Also newbies send PMs to somebody who looks likely to solve their misfiring problem rather than posting to the board. Very irritating if you're the recipient. Also subsequent messages if you've been helpful once come as PMs.
Hurrah! We have an edit button!
Photos use up bandwidth unnecessarily; particularly when copied into the quote part.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 15:35
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Hey - Ling may be a bit different from the rest of us. Her style is a little in your face. BUT its just style. I dont detect any malice. And anyway, she is right.
You are mostly a bunch of luddites. But then this is not news, I told you that often enough in the old place. Sheesh!
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I found myself almost played out on the other forum after 3 years. In the end you start to parody your own earlier topics out of boredom (speaking for myself) so I guess other topics, on balance would be good.
It would be good to get new people in too, on the other interests - if only to get away from the bitterness that existed on the other forum. (maybe they don`t garden)
I sometimes wondered whether it HAD to be left as it was (you know, the Lowlife &Scumbags thread type) to generate advertising click through for the owner. That thread got over 4,000 clicks and it seemed to me that if you were after the income you would go down that path as far as possible until squeezed back by the allegedly upmarket parent rag.
I thought any notion that we were were all `chatting in the pub` had gone out of the window - as demonstrated by the demonizing of new members as `trolls` before they had a chance.
So let`s hope it better now - I`m giving it a try here, under a new nick ;-)
Last edited by: Mike on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 15:39
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"the bitterness that existed on the other forum"
Either I'm blind, or you've led a sheltered life. I've been involved in many a forum, and the BR was, by a considerable margin, the one most free of bitterness. (I admit to not reading every threat, and perhaps managed to miss most of the L&S threads).
"as demonstrated by the demonizing of new members as `trolls` before they had a chance."
I agree completely. I've seen a lot of accusations of 'trolling' on the internet, but most of them seemed to be figments of the imagination of the accusers. I was very sorry to see the recent accusations of trolling in the BR.
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i think photos as seen are bad but clickeable is good
i think private pms are bad
i also like anonymity
why?
because on another site i once got a death threat for standing up to someone,thing is in the brave new world on the internet it wouldnt be too difficult to find a member if you had enough voices in your head tellling you to do it
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"Either I'm blind, or you've led a sheltered life"
Thanks for the observation. I`m feeling at home already.
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>> "Either I'm blind or you've led a sheltered life"
>>
Mike >> Thanks for the observation. I`m feeling at home already.
>>
Wow, the original comment struck me as perfectly reasonable.
I have to echo Zero's comments on Ling's comments which do not strike me as anything other than polite. Yup, I'm a luddite (sort of). But I'm proud of it!
Fora that degenerate into ((hugs)) Mike, are dull as ditchwater...
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Sorry, Mike. What I wrote came over as rude, and I didn't mean it to.
But over the years, I found the atmosphere in the BR to be friendly, helpful and polite compared to the other places on the internet that I frequent.
I knew I should have inserted a smiley.
:-(
p.s. And when I wrote "I admit to not reading every threat," I meant "thread". I'm not talking about the death threats that I used to get from backroomers.
Last edited by: wildernessman on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 17:19
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Mike's comments are pretty accurate and reflect how the old forum was seen buy new folks I tried to encourage along. The established set were quite tight knit and far more resistant to outsiders than they would like to believe. Probably many of that set are digging in here now and it would do everyone some good to get loads of new blood.
For example the regulars know what each other drive and pretty well every topic has been thrashed out between them before to reach an unofficial forum concensus. Would be good to get in some new faces, new cars, new ideas and let the troll like newbies have a bit of a run until we really know they're up to no good.
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Well said Fenlander. Old topics would come up to be discussed and they'd been done to death before and a new poster could quickly be pushed out.
Maybe the new mods need to think about that. No point discussing things that have polarised opinions so much before perhaps. But a compromise could be had. Food for thought for this new forum.
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Someone somewhere mentioned " the demonizing of new members as `trolls` before they had a chance."
For me, that was the straw which broke the camels back.
This place, while familiar, is really refreshing!! At the moment, at least... :-)
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Indeed smokie. Lets hope we all (me included!) can welcome new members. How they find us is another matter though...
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Well certainly not meaning to be offensive or aggressive, just talking plainly.
Don't want to rake it all up, but just have a couple of comments:
a) Broadsheet (and all) newspapers are dying. However, they DO contain pictures, remarkably. Admittedly i saw a copy of a 1903 Times that had few pictures, but yesterday's Telegraph had loads! In colour (shock). Imagine the duck house, without a picture of the duckhouse?
b) To use "links" to pictures is just crazy, as a picture is a picture. Thumbnails are a better alternative, especially if a bit of javascript is used to enlarge.
c) You have to think of EVERYONE who may want to visit and use the forum, not just HJ rejects (sorry couldn't resist that :). People must admit that MOST web users prefer to see some pictures, as they are worth 1,000 words.
I'm not suggesting repeated massive Subaru Imprezas with naked girls (hmmm) but I am suggesting that reasonably small thumbnails to illustrate a point - about the width of the "post message" button and about 3 times as tall (or 100 x 70px for the rest of us) - with a mouse over enlargement for you older members :))) may actually (shock horror) massively improve the user experience.
I take it members under 60 are welcome??? :)))
Stop taking offence. And bandwidth is NOT an issue. We are in 2010.
Ling
Last edited by: LINGsCARS on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 18:24
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...Broadsheet (and all) newspapers are dying....
Circulation is an issue, but all the national newspapers (I think) and most locals make a profit.
The likes of the Daily Mail, Times and Telegraph are doing pretty well.
...People must admit that MOST web users prefer to see some pictures...
I don't know about most, but I do not want to see pictures on here - the linking system works well.
...And bandwidth is NOT an issue. We are in 2010...
I can't argue with your reading of the calendar, but bandwidth does remain an issue.
My dongle stick was working at dial-up speeds earlier, and my standard Sky Broadband package in Ifithelps Towers is not the quickest.
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Thanks for your comments ling. One reason not to embed images on the site itself (in post) is the need to store them. And what if someone posts a copyrighted image. Very hard to police. Better to link. I have a few thoughts and will take up with those running the site. We're just mods here.
Thanks
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Why not simply allow thumbnails of images hosted else where? Could make the site a bit slow though if people post images of 2mb each as the thumbnail would probably have to load the original image but resize it via HTML.
I am divided by it because images would be nice but I do see how it can cause technical problems.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 18:47
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I will discuss with the site admin/publisher. No need to discuss further. As most know it is possible to have an image on an HTML site that is hosted elsewhere. The bandwidth for the user is the same but it would not effect the site the same.
Last edited by: welshy on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 18:52
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I like the idea of links to pics same as before, don't want endless loading times whilst a page of 30 posts loads with it's permanent pics, even thumbnails.
Glad we are reconfirmed Luddites, thanks Ling thats a lovely compliment.
As for technical, i'd like to keep it separate from discussion...
has anyone emailed Screwloose to see if he'd like to look in by the way, i miss his diatribes on modern stuff and modern diagnostic methods as well as his expertise when needed...always thought he should have had a motoring tech column lashing out at some of the sillier technical 'advances' like electric handbrakes and the like in column inches likely to be read by Disgusted of Tunbridge wells, might bring a bit of common back to design stage at the factories.
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There was a lot about the old forum in the other place that was good and little I found was bad. Yes there were times when a photo in the post would be a good idea. Not all of us use flikr etc and prefer to keep photos private unless absolutely necessary.
I have only ever used three other fora. The Chartered Surveyors one is dreadful. The Volvo and PPrune use identical software and they are much less user friendly IMHO. At least in the Volvo owners forum people are usually friendly and happy to give advice - similar in a way to the BR, and I think they would really benefit from the Khoosys forum.
PMs are not a good idea. I don't want my privacy invaded unless I have invited someone to join me. I have exchanged private e-mails with two members but only after a third party contact via a Mod. Lets keep it that way.
Yes I am a luddite. I do little if any browsing on my phone (I don't have the time) and prefer a full screen.
The distinction between technical and discussion was getting blurred and until we get many more members we should stick them all in the same area, but maybe split them when traffic builds. I like the fact that IHAQ is in the same area as well.
Its a pity that the HJ site has shot itself in the foot.
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...but maybe split them when traffic builds...
Good point - technical has received just three posts today.
I'm sure we're all chuffed by the way the site has taken off so quickly, but I think it's bound to fall back a bit as the novelty wears off.
Concentrate traffic on Discussion and get that clicking over well on 200/300 posts a day before starting too many sub forums.
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Each member could choose to have PMs or not.
You could include another member to PM you and vica versa, so if I needed to send something to say Welshy, I could open up my PM service to allow a PM from him, then if I chose to, close it to him once it has served its purpose.
This way we wouldn't need to get bombarded with spam from other members.
How about that then?
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As an ex HJ mod I was occasionally involved with transmitting messages between people because, rightly, people don't want to openly show their email address. But it's one of the overheads the mods could do without - there's plenty else to keep them busy.
I'm a member of lots of forums and I can't think of one where I have had "unsolicited" or unwelcome spam in PMs. I suppose some of the cleverer ones here might find their PM inbox full of questions, but they can choose to ignore them - or, as suggested above, have PMs on if required, and not if not. Whatever, I'd like to see PMs available (and maybe white and black lists!)
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>> I'd like to see PMs available (and maybe white and black lists!)
The only way that I can think of to make PMs a reasonable idea is for them to be easily available to moderators, in their trusted role. That way, any nastiness or trouble-making could be prevented. However, that's an unwelcome overhead.
I think, for previously-stated reasons, that PMs are a very bad thing indeed on any forum.
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>> has anyone emailed Screwloose
I believe so. He left because of the adverts amongst other things. Maybe he could be tempted back if he had a warm welcome.
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Wellllllll.... I think you (mostly) are missing the point.
You are looking in your own mirrors.
You should think of OTHERS (ie the masses of new members out there). My own point of view - I won't labour it too much - is to give people what they want. But I don't mean the old soldiers, I mean the masses of new, enthusiastic, exciting, interesting people who would be a massive boost to a new, independent, no strings attached, forum.
Look, people are used to visual interaction. I don't really care what I prefer, or what you (singular) prefer... surely it is better to say, what would the average new member prefer?
Most will enjoy some visual references, reasonably sized pics and all the extra dimension that can bring.
People like some form of entertainment. People should be rewarded for logging on and visiting and contributing. Pictures allow many other aspects - you can run quizzes and competitions, easily convey meaning, even (gasp) show something like a strange warning light on your own car, or your homemade headlamp beam deflectors.
Copyright is not an issue. Trust me. No one AT ALL ever complains if their pics are used innocently. Matter of fact, if the pics are rescaled and thumbnailed there is no copyright issue anyway - see Google Images. Most companies and organisations would APPRECIATE their pics being shown. This copyright issue does not have to get overtly anal. If someone does complain (VERY unlikely, I have had millions of unique visitors and never get complaints - except BMW - but I am competing with their dealers) and often get thanked for using stuff. They are not being used to pass off, or for promotion or profit, so you are fine.
For the 99.9% of future users bandwidth is NOT an issue. If the web was built to satisfy the very small proportion of low-bandwith users, there would be no progress and as I say you can have a simple option to "show links instead of images". Then, surely EVERYONE can be happy?
But, why deny others? Especially of thousands of those others don't even know this place exists yet.
Same applies to all communication, like twitter etc. Why have icq and Messenger options, but have no facility to digg posts, tweet them, reddit them, link from facebook etc etc? What on earth is everyone frightened of? Why can't we have Twitter profile pics, or discus profiles? Or have a nice profile image someone can see?
I'm not saying it should be vBulletin yawn, but just have the options. In an attractive, controlled way. Attracting an extra 500,000 users would be great... or is this all NIMBY and you regard "new people" like internet immigrants; all diseased, unwashed, and "not suitable types"?
Ling
Discuss?
Last edited by: welshy on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 20:22
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Thanks again Ling. You've made your point (Again) and we thank you for it. Stop going on about it. We'd start thinking your website had some pictures on it or something.
We'll see what new members think when they arrive.
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> with middle-aged, middle-class, white, anglo saxon males
Yup. I tick that box too.
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And Ling should shut up about all this now please. Thanks.
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...Discuss?...
Not sure there's much point, Ling.
Seems to me that like many people in business, it has to be your way or not at all.
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Mind you ling, I have to say, and I hope you dont mind me saying it, your website looks like it was designed by my dog vomiting alphabeti spaghetti over a mat.
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According to awards, Ling's site is not the worst though. She must try harder ;-)
If she carries on posting the same stuff over and over we my have to put her in the sin bin.
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She does have a point tho. If the forum is to grow, it does have to have appeal to everyone, not just the "clique"
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Totally agree about it appealing to more than the clique. The problem on some forums with embedded pictures might not apply here if we did. But the first thing that is needed is to get new people here. There may have been fun posting today (over 400 posts so far) but not many members.
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Until all users have the nous to scale their own pics, I wouldn't want pictures. As a mod on another site, probably the biggest chore I have is copying the pics people post, downsizing them and reposting. They often post pics which are larger than the screen, which causes horizontal scroll bars and affects the readbility of the remainder of the threads. And I use a 24" widescreen!
Without wishing to suggest that membership should be at all selective, I think there are already forums (maxpower etc?) for people who can only speak in text and whose attention span is so limited that everything has to be in pictures. There is a market for a more selective, maybe more educated, internet user, which I think was pretty much fulfilled by what went before. Not quite silver surfers in most cases, but getting that way in many! And thoise nowhere near were old before their time ;-) Whatever, IMO in many respects, the site was all the better for it.
Having said that, a picture really can paint a thousand words, done properly!!
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>> Until all users have the nous to scale their own pics I wouldn't want pictures.
>> As a mod on another site probably the biggest chore I have is copying the
>> pics people post downsizing them and reposting.
On another forum I use, there is a max size that you're allowed. If you've not cropped or resized it beforehand, then the forum software automatically refuses to upload it. Simples.
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We already have routines (bits of code) that rescale images to a maximum size on upload for you. The server config has a limit on file size, so then the only other reason not to load a massive pic is the upload time on the small upload pipe that adsl gives you. We scale down to say 1024 on upload if needed. That way files aren't unnecessarialy large on disk.
For display we also have routines that will take this image and automatically resize as thumbnail for us. Non of this 'take big image and simply change width/height in html for browser to do the scaling' kind of thing that you see on some sites. You know, where the article loads and then the image follows by slowly drawing down. You can tell if the coder has been lazy in this way if when you right-click to view image it comes back up as the massive version.
On the open-source side of things there are a few alternaitve image scalers around. One of the most popular is imagemagik. We happen to use imlib2. The only problem we have is that is the php-imlib2 extension (the bit that couples php to tjis library) isn't that well supported out of the box. We end up compiling our own version from sources. imlib2 is good once it is working in that it is really fast and does a nice job of ani-aliasing scaled images (no grainy or fuzzy bits on them).
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Slowly does it with a steady hand at the tiller.
20000 new members (potential customers??) that visit one weekend then disappear and 500 regular reliable slightly eccentric stalwart luddites vanish forever?
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>> If the forum is to grow it does have to have appeal to everyone not just the "clique"
You have to consider the motive that people have for using a forum. Is it for simple empty chat, education/gaining knowledge, swapping motiring information and stories, or what?
The pub. analogy is quite good - there are pubs of all sorts, catering to all tastes - sterile Weatherspoon pubs with cheap beer, town pubs, cosy rural ones, trendy ones, ones which are virtual discos (I use an old-fashioned word deliberately!). I suggest a mix of town & country appeals generally - too much cheap beer leads to confusion, trendy people don't stay in one place, virtual discos are so noisy you can't hear the conversation. Nothing wrong with the odd trendy person zooming in and out, or the odd "event" - but not continually.
Cripes, if I may say that. Perhaps I should re-name myself "John Goodwheel".
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FT - coincidentally I posted something about pubs on the Mods internal board at that other site tonight, which was true, and went
"... reminds me of when our local shut for a 6 week refurb. The hard core regulars discovered that there were other places to drink, and many of them haven't even been back in in the year or so since it re-opened. But the £400k they spent on the refurb brought with it flashy drinks, an upmarket (but still only a pub) menu and, for a few months, it seemed successful, with a large and refreshingly young clientele with money to burn, at least until a newer, shinier place caught their eye."
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Well, this is so easy. Have rolling polls. So the majority view can be heard, and will change over time.
Or are polls too "different and new and unwanted" too? Is *everything* that does not exist software wise, DELIBERATELY withheld?
I am really confused about what people are afraid of?
Is this just a resurrection of a 10 year old forum? I know these questions are uncomfortable, but why on earth not ask them? Why do I feel this "we don't want to hear it". I thought this was a NEW forum.
YOU might not, but you won't get the flood of new members if you don't adapt and move forward surely?
I'll shut up (for a while). But this is not billed as a text-forum.
I have just won the NatWest/BT Business award for IT and Communication, at the Dorchester with Mrs Brown. Surely I am allowed a little indulgence of opinion?
If I am annoying, just ignore me :) I'm off for Fish and Chips.
Ling
Last edited by: welshy on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 20:43
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Sack your web designer on the way out the door.
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I think there's plenty to be thinking about here.
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...There may have been fun posting today (over 400 posts so far) but not many members...
And if you strip out the 'forum enhancements', new 'handles' and other threads about the forum itself, there's not much about motoring or general questions.
I think it's still got off to a flying start, it's just a matter of building on that.
And no, I don't know how that is best done.
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Ling, I hope you enjoyed your fish and chips.
You seem a fairly direct person so I hope you won't be affronted by this but given that your site is famous for being comically badly designed and is the visual equivalent of having Jedward played at you at ear-splitting volumes while being force fed Big Mac and fries, forgive me if I disagree with any advice you offer which would change the look of any webpage I may encounter without a pre-warning along the lines of "the page you are about to view is sponsored by Migralieve"
You've made your point. Thanks.
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Hi Ling
I quite agree that this all needs to move more into the next phase of the internet - to come of age so to speak. It was never our intention to launch with just a forum. However, as a business woman you will appreciate that sometimes you have to just react and meet a need in the best possible way for the time and resources available.
Because the community here is new, excited and full of enthusiasm I think it is only fair to roll out changes more progressively so this site retains much of its freshness and appeal.
It is nice to know what we would all like, and have a vision of where it will go. We have a very clear set of ideas on where we want to take this site now, but we will always want to engage the community as we introduce changes.
We feel really excited just thinking about what we want to do with this site, but you will understand that sometimes fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
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Ling's posts have reminded me (!) - some modern forums have an IGNORE button, so that you never ever see any posts from those people. It can be a pain seeing just bits of a discussion, but it can also be a blessed relief sometimes...
Can we have that feature please? The sooner the better :-)
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People quote stuff which you have to read. Everyone comes up with a Good Post sometimes, and it broadens the mind to consider the Big Wide World. Can't they just be skimmed over and ignored when necessary? I feel an "ignore" button gives people a mechanism to be nasty to others, and form cliques - "Oh! *Puh-Lease* don't quote "xyz", *I've* got him on *Ignore*", and all that sort of thing.
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....the following are on my ignore list....
....only kidding ;)
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I'd agree entirely FT, I think all the mods are expert at skim reading, and it is really quite easy when you do it a lot to pick out the bits that you should read, or which might be of interest.
Having said that, if you think back over recent forum history about particular posters, if most people had them on ignore (which they probably would have) then they'd have been talking to themselves...
And having said that, this post was mainly a t-i-c pop at Ling. :-)
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Wouldn't want to ignore Ling anyway - she's great fun and adds to the gaiety of nations. But of course she's WRONG about wanting to jazz up the forum, surely we're all agreed on that (- looks around anxiously)... :-)
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Smokie similar is on the way I believe. But is not an ignore button. Much better.
Last edited by: welshy on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 20:59
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>> Smokie similar is on the way I believe. But is not an ignore button. Much
>> better.
>>
What, you actually mean that one of the mods will go round to their place and nuke them???
Yes please!
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An ignore button is no good on its own. Most people have to PROCLAIM that someone is on their ignore list.
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It wouldn't be an ignore button - much better. Wait and see what comes.
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Now we have more forums is it possible to have the NEW post indicator in the forum list please?
Pat
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Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but would it be possible to have forum-specific drop-downs? For example, in Non-Motoring none of them (type, category, make, model) seem to be appropriate.
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I like the 'Latest Forum Posts' feature, but personally I would prefer it if it took you to the post in flat view (because that's my default view).
As it is, I end up in threaded view, and the first thing I want to do is change to flat so I can see the preceding post(s). But that takes me to the top of the topic and the new post is no longer new, and can be difficult to find.
Based on my limited HTML knowledge, would it be possible to embed a bookmark(?) at the start of each post in flat view which could be linked to?
EDIT: and any thoughts on drop-downs (see above)?
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 25 Feb 10 at 15:06
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Works for me flat view Focus. I've done nothing.
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I get threaded as well, is there a setting I can change to get flat view from "latest posts"?
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I hadn't even noticed that feature.
I get threaded too. My default is flat.
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The Latest Forum Posts links end in "v=e" - presumably that's the view setting. What does 'e' stand for?
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>> The Latest Forum Posts links end in "v=e" - presumably that's the view setting. What
>> does 'e' stand for?
BTW that's the same as the links in forum search results, which come up threaded (for me) when clicked.
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I think I missed the feature too. Need to check it out. Had assumed incorrectly that you were just getting threaded for some reason.
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I'd like to be able to post pictures. The only issue (as someone who frequents Pistonheads) is that some tend to consistently "quote" the previous message and the same picture is shown over and over again.
PMs are ok by me. If you don't want them, don't read them. As a moderator for many years on another motoring site (now 'retired' :) ), a site lives and breathes by the quality of the moderation. I don't think there is anything to worry about there.
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>> The only issue is that some tend to consistently "quote" the previous message and the same picture is shown over and over again.
>> As a moderator for many years on another motoring site ....
I've seen the same thing happen on that site you used to moderate on, followed by a couple of words to the effect "gr8 car m8".
Not only is quoting the pictures annoying, but also the txt talk.
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I was pretty vicious when it came to moderating posts made in 'text talk'. Lazy and just plain rude in my opinion!
In my view it simply became the case that as the Vectra C aged, it dropped into the price bracket that was accessible to the 'yuff' of today. While keen, the etiquette of forum posting escaped them.
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I think you'll find it's spelled "yoof", not "yuff".
Standards, old chap, standards.
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Its niether lazy or rude, simply a matter of changing and evolving style. Just lay back and let the world pass you by old chap. Lets not fall into the old ways of schoolteacher pedantry on this site please.
Talking of old luddites, where the hell is Lud? has he not made it across?
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I think he has - but can't work it out with these changed names.
Last edited by: Espada III on Sun 28 Feb 10 at 16:08
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...has Lud made it across...
Yes, he's carmel or cormel something-or-other.
No idea what it's all about.
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>> Its niether lazy or rude simply a matter of changing and evolving style.
Sorry, don't agree. It's a sign of poor educational standards and sheer laziness!
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it might be poor educational standards but unfortunately its the new language to use txt
i dont like it either but sometimes do use slang words which if we are honest is the old txt speak
biggest problem apparently at the wifes place is nobody teachers pitmans any more and taking notes of meetings is a very laboriousk process apparently,glad i dont have to do it
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It Just because you dont appreciate the style of people who use it or why it has come about and the technology drive behind it. Welcome to the generation gap.
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I'm with mlc on this one.
Text speak has no place at work or in commerce generally.
Any of the younger ones used to using it are in for a shock when they start interacting with grown-ups in the big, wide world.
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I'm afraid I have a problem with it too. I can't help being irritated by it whether it is seen by some as progress or not. Perhaps I am a Luddite. I really don't care if I am. Innit.
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As I dont get paid for being here, this is not work or commerce.
Anyway when I was in work, we used SO manu acronyms that a dictionarywas developed.
Also smileys and things like "Lol" were accepted.
That was work and commerce. And those young ones? they will be THE grown up in a few years time, AND using the very devil of txt terms you abhor. It WILL be the norm in work and commerce. I mean we stopped using latin in legal tomes years ago.
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pwedi gamiton ko it akon linguahi dinhe kay gusto ko mag join dide kon maupay kamo haakon
(message from Mrs kharon)
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Sorry about that - lost control of the notebook briefly.
Mrs K wants a Karaoke section so that she can invite several hundred friends and fellow singers off Pal-talk.
Last edited by: Kharon on Sun 28 Feb 10 at 18:17
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It's only a minor niggle, but I preferred the earlier paler shade of blue background for new posts. The contrast with the black text was greater.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 4 Mar 10 at 17:41
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Forum enhancements over the next day or so - RattleandSmoke
