More than a few times over the weekend I heard warnings of cold weather and a possibility of temperatures close to or below freezing, even on the weather during CountryFile we were warned of a cold snap at the end of the week and a yellow weather alert had been issued.
Now I don’t know about you guys but when I looked at the calendar it said that we are in December which I thought was in winter…… am I missing something but the seemingly dire warnings don’t match with what I would say is ‘normal’ weather for this time of year.
What next…. ‘watch out it’s raining so you may get wet!’
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> What next…. ‘watch out it’s raining so you may get wet!’
>>
>>
>>
Flood warnings, I think they call them.
Changes in weather will always be noted/mentioned it's the first cold spell of this winter, perhaps best if it's never mentioned.
;-)
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Technically, winter starts on 21st December:)
Here, the mean temp dropped sharply from 29th November. I thought then that the weather was much more what we should expect at that time of year. Most of November was really quite mild. I was out setting up, lighting fireworks and clearing away on Nov 5th, and in contrast with past years when it has usually been bitter, it was almost warm.
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Astronomical winter does but:
“However, at the Met Office, we often use a meteorological definition of the seasons. By the meteorological calendar, the first day of winter is always 1 December; ending on 28 (or 29 during a Leap Year) February.
Meteorological seasons consist of splitting the seasons into four periods made up of three months each. These seasons are split to coincide with our Gregorian calendar, making it easier for meteorological observing and forecasting to compare seasonal and monthly statistics.
The seasons are defined as spring (March, April, May), summer (June, July, August), autumn (September, October, November) and winter (December, January, February).”
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First significant frost of the winter this morning in west Northamptonshire.
Quite unusual I think for it to be as late as the end of the first week in December.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 7 Dec 22 at 08:47
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Yes. As a gardener it used to be normal to get a first frost in October, blackening the frost sensitive plants. Extremely mild an wet autumn this year.
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Yeah its not so much its cold, now, that's not unusual, its just the fact Its suddenly gone from mild to cold.
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Some things never change of course. I’m working from home today so I don’t need my car until I go for a swim this evening.
“She” though, has an office day today, so guess who was the one outside freezing his nuts off while scraping ice off her car?
:-(
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One of the benefits of an electric car. Just turn on in the car heating remotely with your phone.
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>> One of the benefits of an electric car. Just turn on in the car heating
>> remotely with your phone.
Another benefit is reduced range in cold weather.
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True but you can’t have everything. Overall EV ownership has so far proved a positive experience .
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you never go anywhere in it.
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I'd like to know the science behind whether you do or don't have frost on your window screen in the mornings.
Today it was 1.5 degrees when I set of at 0630, being on the top of the North Downs that temp would nearly always mean a frosty screen but today the whole car was as clear as a bell.
I guess the air seemed very 'dry' but tomorrow onwards I fully expect to be de-frosting.
Just wondered why on some very cold 0 degree mornings there is no frost and on other 'warmer' (+2) I could have thin ice?
At least in the GTi I have very hot air when 5 minutes of driving.
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It was -2 here, heavy dew on the windscreen, no frost, no wind.
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Anyone one off to warmer climes for the winter? It’s not so much the cold I dislike but the drab greyness of an English winter. Decided to spend February on the island of La Palma ( hopefully no volcanic eruptions ).
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>> It was -2 here, heavy dew on the windscreen, no frost, no wind.
About the same here I think.
Both cars were well frozen up until the sun got onto them. Those parked in shade - parts of the road get no sun at this time of the year - are still frozen.
Office day tomorrow with an 09:00 start in the centre of Northampton. Need to allow 5 minutes extra for defrosting.
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>> It was -2 here, heavy dew on the windscreen, no frost, no wind.
Where was -2 recorded? Is it via a thermometer around your house or what's reported for your locale via the media or an app on your phone.
If there was unfrozen condensation on your car then presumably something local, perhaps proximity to the house kept the surrounding air above freezing. Sort of the opposite of a frost pocket.
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>> If there was unfrozen condensation on your car then presumably something local, perhaps proximity to
>> the house kept the surrounding air above freezing. Sort of the opposite of a frost
>> pocket.
Not necessarily. Just no dew.
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>> >> It was -2 here, heavy dew on the windscreen, no frost, no wind.
>>
>> Where was -2 recorded?
External wireless thermometer probe. Its in natural shelter (From winds and sun) so fairly indicative.
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>> External wireless thermometer probe. Its in natural shelter (From winds and sun) so fairly indicative.
In which case the fact there was unfrozen dew on your car is curious. Proximity to the house and/or neighbour's houses. Car parked down the side of the house at our previous gaff was less likely to freeze then the one parked ahead of it on the open drive.
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>>Just wondered why on some very cold 0 degree mornings there is no frost and on other 'warmer' (+2) I could have thin ice?
All to do with relative humidity (RH) and the dew point.
There's a certain amount of moisture in the air. RH is a% being the moisture level as a proportion of the maximum moisture the air could hold at that temperature.
When the temp drops, RH goes up - colder air can hold less water. At the dew point, the temp at which the air is saturated with moisture, water condenses. If the temperature goes below freezing below the dew point you will have water and it will be frozen.
The phenomenon of frost on the windscreen when the general temp is above zero is because the layer next to the screen is at a lower temp. That could be because it has been colder, and has not melted yet, or evaporation could be a factor especially if there's wind.
If it's below freezing but there's no frost on the window, the dew point is probably below the current temperature.
Play with this. You can enter a RH and a temp, and it will calculate the dew point. So e.g. if its 5c and 90% RH, you can calculate that dew will form if the temp drops by 1.5C.
www.calculator.net/dew-point-calculator.html
I have some of these. Sometimes interesting to see what's going on.
smile.amazon.co.uk/EEEKit-Temperature-Thermometer-Hygrometer-Greenhouse/dp/B07GPT8HPY/
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 7 Dec 22 at 11:35
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Frost on both cars this morning. Her Micra, parked in the road. hadn't cleared by 1530 when she needed to go out.
Mine was ok on the drive 'cos the mid afternoon sun shines directly between the houses.
I'm putting the screen cover on hers tonight as I don't want her getting me up at 0930 to clear it for her trip to fat club !
Pair of electric gloves arrived for me from Mr Amazon an hour ago. My right fumm dies in this cold....and I'm right-handed. Power is by USB, don't know how long they last before recharge but they're not the heavy ski/motorbike ones. Might just let me get on with a few jobs outside. I found the best way of unlocking my fingers is a sink full of fairly warm water.
Ted
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Ted, I buy the heat pouches that Lidl sell during ski week, last for an hour and reactivated by simmering in boiling water. They are brilliant to resolve cramps and non working digits. I keep them in my jacket pocket, car etc. I have my grandfathers hand warmer which he had during the wars (pilot in first, soldier in second) and then used when he went racing. I’m not brave enough to carry around such a fire hazard!
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Had a couple of days of heavy frost here which has reminded me of the annual headache that the missus’ Beetle windows freeze.
They are frameless and supposed to drop an inch when the car gets unlocked but they freeze solid to the roof. Which means you then are opening the glass against the roof….
Last year I tried coating the edges with olive oil but it made no difference. This year I have gone for PTFE spray but doesn’t seem to be helping either.
Car also gets a full body cover put over it when we know it’s going to be frosty.
WFH has its benefits….
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>> the
>> annual headache that the missus’ Beetle windows freeze.
I found a light application of furniture polish on the door rubbers prevented the door freezing shut.
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Try silicone on the rubbers.
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That’s what the PTFE spray is, is it not?
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The usual advice is silicone pilot Gummi Pflege which is a product specifically made for the job.
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Dont work on the beemer, the top door seal bonds itself to the roof even when treated with silicon spray.
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You all probably know this old trick anyway, but just in case it’s news to anyone, if a car door is “stuck” due to being frozen, just sort of lean on it a bit before you try opening it.
Pushing it inwards towards the shut position can help to free it.
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Yeap a vote for Gummi Pflege, various German makers, I've got bottles from Wurth and Liqui Moly, go on with a sponge applicator and keeps your rubbers supple!
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and keeps your rubbers supple!
should help one of our dwindling number cope with the cost of living crisis?
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Have now ordered some of this to see if it works.
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>> Have now ordered some of this to see if it works.
What, Tights?
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Chuffing cold this morning. -5C. Took her car for MoT, she's not driving at the moment due to cataract operation so I took my Brompton to ride a mere 4 miles home on. Too cold, eyes hurting. I'm not even slightly hard, stopped at the village shop half way home for a cup of tea and a warm up.
I had forgotten to isolate the outside taps. Hoping I've been lucky.
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I shall be up a Welsh mountain tomorrow on my bike. With the right kit on it’ll be fine and lovely.
I’m not hard either these days, more brittle really!
;-)
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>> I shall be up a Welsh mountain tomorrow on my bike. With the right kit
>> on it’ll be fine and lovely.
On Sunday I shall be chief steward at a dog show. Its a role that basically means you hope nothing happens, and hang around doing nothing all day. Trouble is its going to be cold - around freezing and snow - Sooooo. the thermal long johns have just been delivered by mr amazon this morning.
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Anyone got any spare mind bleach?
:-(
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>> Anyone got any spare mind bleach?
>> :-(
>
I bet you have worn Mrs D'hills tights in the past..........
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I have my own axshully. Two pairs in fact.
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I have couple of pairs of 'insulting' trousers from Craghoppers. Had some on this morning, worked well.
They seem to have adopted the marketing method of inventing high prices and then 'discounting'. I paid £25 for them, albeit 5 years ago.
www.craghoppers.com/mens-kiwi-winter-lined-trousers-black-1/
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One can see how such a garment might indeed attract insults.
;-)
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>> One can see how such a garment might indeed attract insults.
>> ;-)
Especially when tucked into the socks.
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Not exactly James Bond levels of sartorial elegance then?
;-)
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I'm a natural scruff, if I dressed James Bond and I'd still look lumpen.
But I never wear jeans or "trainers". Walking britches, and the coat-of-many-pockets are my default everyday choice.
www.paramo-clothing.com/en-gb/explore-range/product/new-mens-halkon-traveller/
Depending on the weather, fleeces might have a role.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMj4JoHVpeI
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“The Halkon Traveller is for outdoor people who need quick access to essential equipment.”
Ah I see they know the needs of their older clientele.
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>> “The Halkon Traveller is for outdoor people who need quick access to essential equipment.”
>>
>> Ah I see they know the needs of their older clientele.
There's still scope for development. With 15 pockets it's not unusual to have to search half of them before finding what you needed quick access to. TBH I thought it was an even number so there might be one I haven't found.
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>> There's still scope for development. With 15 pockets it's not unusual to have to search
>> half of them before finding what you needed quick access to. TBH I thought it
>> was an even number so there might be one I haven't found.
TBH, they dot look that warm, still lots of pockets to fill with little hotties hand warmers.
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They aren't warm, or very waterproof.
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>> Especially when tucked into the socks.
Tuck mine into my knee length Dublin boots.
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I put an olde Hanwag walking boot over my outside tap. Warm though on Bodmin Moor at -1.
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...been to the S-i-L's in the darkest depths of Northumberland today.
Some snow flurries while we were there, but leaving at 16:30 there was a good covering on the A68 North of Corbridge (white over, no tyre tracks).
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Minus 3.5 this morgen, and no heating. How can ASHP,s extract heat from the air, when there isn't any?
16 degree inside the owse thanks to highly-insulated new build.
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Plenty of heat left, you've got another 270 degrees (C or K) before you get to absolute zero!
As long as the boiling point of the refrigerant is below the ambient temperature the ASHP can pump heat (although they start to freeze on the outside of the coils, so have to run a defrost cycle). A freezer works with an in internal temp of -20C and a condenser temperature on the back of about 30-40C - it's the same process.
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I put another scoop of coal on the fire and the room is now cosy.
Need to order another 1/2 tonne - 2 years ago £140, 1 year ago £160, today £300
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>> I put another scoop of coal on the fire and the room is now cosy.
>>
>> Need to order another 1/2 tonne - 2 years ago £140, 1 year ago £160,
>> today £300
there is a steam train running today, it will consume about 16 tonnes.
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My coal still comes from Wales
The steam coal needed by the trains comes from .............. Kazakhstan! (Central Asia)
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>>
>> there is a steam train running today, it will consume about 16 tonnes.
>>
Of number 9 coal?
m.youtube.com/watch?v=RRh0QiXyZSk
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Can you still buy coal for domestic heating? I thought it had been banned and it was all smokeless now?
I lit the stove this morning and sitting by it now - cosy as anything, but it's smokeless thingies. I buy from CPL, cos it's easy, and they don't show any coal on their site that I can see.
We buy about ten bags every two years, so not heavy users!
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I've phoned the Co who fitted it and they are going to send 'a man' out later.
Property faces SE so warms up pretty quickly :)
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My drivers door lock was frozen this morning, as were both doors. Some warm water round the edge of the passenger door eventually freed it and I had to scramble across the seat to get behind the wheel. This was at 6:30, it took till nearly ten till the drivers lock would turn.
Out with the silicone today, WD40 in the locks and a bit of foil to cover them tonight.
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How are you getting on with the Panda? Hopefully it is working out for you?
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Very well, thanks.
It's a lovely car to drive, very comfortable and nippy enough for what I want.
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Fab! Glad you like it!
They are very easy to like in my experience. Unless you try to get an 8’ Christmas tree in one as I did once… ;-)
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>> My drivers door lock was frozen this morning, as were both doors.
Godamn we forgot to tell you Panda doors freeze up. Sorry
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>>
>> Godamn we forgot to tell you Panda doors freeze up. Sorry
>>
...deliberate design feature intended to bamboo(zle) owners....
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It’s not quite that black and white…
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Probably not the best idea with modern car keys with electronic innards and so on, but I have in the dim and distant past heated up the blade of a car key with a lighter to melt the inner workings of a car door lock. Don’t carry a lighter now either so the plan is rather fundamentally flawed on reflection…
As you were.
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A tip I heard about was to half fill a poly bag with hot water, not boiling, seal it and use the heat on your car glass areas. I thought about this and wondered whether a microwave wheat bag would do the same.Fiver or so off Amazon.
Swm says she has one somewhere in the form of a pink teddy bear. Might try it.
The RAV heats up quickly and is behind the gates so it won't get nicked. The Micra needs a good scraping although we have one of them there silver screen covers.
Ted
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>>
>> A tip I heard about was to half fill a poly bag with hot water,
>> not boiling, seal it and use the heat on your car glass areas.
I'm led to believe a hot water bottle left on the dash overnight does the same job
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 9 Dec 22 at 17:00
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Here’s something that was interesting to me tonight. Apologies if it isn’t to anyone else! ;-)
Anyway, having had a cold and frosty few days, it rained for a while earlier this evening and then it froze again.
I’ve just been out in my car on a short journey that involved untreated country roads. They were pretty treacherous with regular patches of white and black ice. On a not too steep hill, a Range Rover in front of me was struggling to get up it and the driver eventually gave up and pulled over to the side of the road at the bottom of the hill.
As I delicately went past it and successfully tootled up the hill, in my RWD E Class, I noticed in my mirror the Range Rover turning and retreating back the way it had come.
No driver divinity involved on my part, just full winter tyres.
They make a heck of a difference.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Fri 9 Dec 22 at 21:46
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But when do you put them on? The way our seasons are going its about 3 days between mild autumn and freezing winter.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 9 Dec 22 at 21:49
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Indeed.
On my 330 I had Michelin Alpins, albeit only an all season tyre. I remember one snowy night driving back to Settle from the far side of Skipton. Again a RR stuck on the hill out of Coniston Cold.
The 330 made it. Just. But just was enough.
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I put them on mid November and take them off mid April as a rule. You’re quite correct of course, most of the time they are unnecessary. It’s only because my car goes over the channel a few times a year into countries that require winter tyres that I bother.
And, they work very well on muddy car parks that I frequent when accessing mountain biking opportunities.
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>> I put them on mid November and take them off mid April as a rule.
Same with my thermal long johns.
Ted
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>> >> I put them on mid November and take them off mid April as a
>> rule.
>>
>>
>> Same with my thermal long johns.
>>
>> Ted
>>
...do you then wash them, or just put them back in the drawer for the next year?...
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>> ...do you then wash them, or just put them back in the drawer for the
>> next year?...
>>
Just put a scoop of Omo in the monthly bath and get in with them on.
Ted
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There certainly comes a point at which having winter tyres would make a difference, but in general, in the UK, many people don't have the nous to adapt to winter conditions.
I only failed to get to or from work twice in 20+ years on my 20-mile commute in winter conditions. Once when the queue into the town I worked in extended to 6 miles, and I simply went home and worked from there. The second was in admittedly bad conditions when the (traditional) LandRover in front of me gave up and turned round (an A-road that was then closed for 4 days due to snow!).
In coming home, I once was baulked by traffic in front of me up a steep hill, tried an alternative parallel route with the same results, and then reverted back to the original, and with a clear run had no trouble in second at a reasonable pace (and that was in a RWD Granada).
I've been over Kirkstone Pass in an RWD Chevette when it was closed due to snow (closed whilst we were crossing) and it was hairy, but without interference from other drivers it was ultimately do-able.
OTOH, there have been a few occasions in ostensibly less challenging conditions when I might have liked winter tyres. I got caught driving home from a meeting in the M1/M6 angle when there had been "thundersnow" and the road, whilst level, was lethal. In expectation, I applied the brakes well in advance of a roundabout, to be met with nothing at all. Luckily, the roundabout was clear, and I got enough traction to negotiate it, but I suspect winter tyres might have been better for the state of the seats.
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The only time when I've been stopped, was when an artic got stuck on an uphill slip road and another thought they could get by.
Knights of the road!
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Where do you store them? I take it you have a full set (tyres and wheels) to swap over every six months.
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In my garage Sooty. On a shelf.
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Car stuff in a garage, what is this madness you speak of? ;-)
My mate ended up storing 2 sets of wheels and tyres at work. His OH wasn't impressed with them on the property, so ended up in a store room for years.
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Apart from the occasional legal requirement for them, I regard them a bit like anti lock brakes or other safety features you can easily live without most of the time until the moment you’re a bit glad you have them.
Straw poll of one and all that but we had Michelin Crossclimates on the old FWD Qashqai my wife had. But, they were not as good (in my layman’s opinion at least) as the full winters I have on the RWD Merc when it got properly cold.
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I get the need for them, I've done the alps in winter a few times and desert conditions more than once. You need what you need, most of the time bog standard is fine. Until it's not, even better when someone else is paying.
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I guess the fact is that when you are retired you don’t actually have to go out every day and you can venture out only when you want to.
I’m actually wondering how the ID3 will cope with snow and icy conditions. It’s rear wheel drive and like all EVs pretty heavy.
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Weight is a factor, many years ago when I had a Defender, it was of course good at getting moving in slippery conditions but stopping it was a very different matter.
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>> Weight is a factor, many years ago when I had a Defender, it was of
>> course good at getting moving in slippery conditions but stopping it was a very different
>> matter.
With 4wd and at two tonnes, the beemer is great at traction. Stopping it however required the aid of the snow banks at the side of the road. Still Mr hills has experience of using kerbs to aid driving
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>> I guess the fact is that when you are retired you don’t actually have to
>> go out every day and you can venture out only when you want to.
>>
>> I’m actually wondering how the ID3 will cope with snow and icy conditions. It’s rear
>> wheel drive and like all EVs pretty heavy.
>>
Take it for a drive, let us know.
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The friction in theory is proportionate to the weight. It's more the braking and cornering when weight makes itself a nuisance.
Best car we ever had in the snow was a Saab 96, which led me to think FWD was an advantage. But a FWD Audi was terrible. For choice, RWD with some weight in the boot. Are the batteries under the boot floor?
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Best vehicle I ever drove on the white stuff was my little Honda Acty van that I used when I first started mobile car engine tuning back in '78.
Worst was my Landover Discovery when driving down a very steep hill when we lived at Warleggan.
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Tyres are the principal determinant of icy or snowy performance - although whether 2WD on winter tyres is better than 4WD on summer tyres is debatable.
But there are two issues to consider:
1. Traction gets you going - 4WD is always going to be better than 2WD on the same tyres
2. Braking and cornering - same tyres on the same number of wheels - little difference?
Better traction is pointless if, having deployed it, you can't then stop!
In the mostly temperate south west of UK it is rarely snowy or icy (unlike today). On the 1 or 2 days every few years when there is more than 50mm of snow - just stay home till it's cleared. Not worth the risk to car, insurance, and me to go out.
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First time I ever drove a Mini back in the sixties was on snow. I thought the grip was phenomenal until I came to a downhill T junction. Fortunately there was a driveway opposite with fresh snow and nothing was coming.
I always wondered what the owners thought when they saw the tyre tracks, but at least they stopped short of the garage door!
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Bet they wondered what the smell was too!
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sat 10 Dec 22 at 12:31
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youtu.be/atayHQYqA3g
At least interesting, and pretty much in line with my personal experience.
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Early finish today. No Mails, Suns, Times, Telegraphs or I Dailys anywhere west of Swansea (And possibly further up the line) owing the M25 coming to a standstill.
Doesn't take much to bring the world to a halt.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Mon 12 Dec 22 at 11:43
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Hmph, blooming global warming... LOL
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Snow...My nephew was visiting his grandmother (my MIL) yesterday and got caught out by the snow.
There is a really steep hill to ascend to get to the main road and cars were not making it up and those going down weren't stopping until they hit something.
He sensibly, in my view, parked up on a stranger's drive, knocked on their door to explain the situation and asked permission to leave his car there overnight, then walked back to grandmother's place and slept on the sofa there as home is around 20 miles away by foot.
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Your nephew clearly has some sense.
Most seem not to believe the weather warnings are for their benefit.
They are uniquely unaffected by the laws of physics when it comes friction between tyres and ice, and in the unlikely event their journey is bought to an untimely cold induced halt that a kit kat and a couple of gallons of petrol in the tank will keep them warm and comfortable overnight.
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>>
>> He sensibly, in my view, parked up on a stranger's drive, knocked on their door
>> to explain the situation and asked permission to leave his car there overnight....
>>
...back in my climbing days, we used to use a variety of climbing club huts for winter weekends. It made for some fairly "hairy" journeys given the mountainous nature of the destinations.
The hut at Tranearth, above Torver in the Lake District is quite high up, and at the end of a largely impassable farm track. Parking is towards the bottom of the track, in a small quarry, and there is a walk of about a kilometre up the hill - a pain at the best of times carrying a weekend's gear and food, triply so on a dark winter's night in a blizzard.
On one particular visit, the snow was bad, and one of the early arrivals found only one set of tyre-tracks in front of him, followed them and parked up just off the track. On departure on Sunday afternoon, he discovered that, whilst the rest of us had parked in the designated quarry, he'd parked slap in the middle of someone's lawn, slightly further down the track.... (and he wasn't very popular!)
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Sister-in-law felt the wheels spin coming out of a T junction. Switched it off, got out and walked home, leaving the car in the middle of the road!
It's not the weather that blocks the roads, it's the numpties!
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Was at a dog show in deepest Sussex yesterday, the journey there and back had it all, freezing fog, Bright sun, some ice, some snow.
The stability control did a little bit of work - there is no light flashing to say its at work, but you can feel the power delivery change, sometimes by corner.
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We were visiting friends in Finchley, and the forecast I saw certainly didn't predict snow, so it was a bit of a shock when we stepped outside at 21.30 to be greeted by a white-out (well 3"). Local roads all snow-covered. Got to the North Circular via Colney Hatch Lane, and that was down to 1 clear lane, although it was fine by the time we got to Henly's Corner. The conditions were not helped by a considerable amount of mimsing from fellow drivers!
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>> Straw poll of one and all that but we had Michelin Crossclimates on the old
>> FWD Qashqai my wife had. But, they were not as good (in my layman’s opinion
>> at least) as the full winters I have on the RWD Merc when it got
>> properly cold.
>>
Make that a straw poll of 2!
I used to fit winter tyres when I had rwd an E-class estate for winter trips into Europe and they were just fine. I would swap them myself, but cars aren't getting any lighter and I used Cross Climates on the last two cars (Peugeot Traveller and Merc Viano) all year round. The Viano is comparable to an E-class (rwd, auto) but the grip with the Cross Climates was noticeably inferior to the winters on the E-class. Cross Climates on fwd manual Traveller were just fine, so (obviously!) driven wheels and gearbox do make a difference.
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Twice I've woken up to no heating. I told ,em (Oldham) the thing is freezing up.
Not possible they sez, the Daikin Atherma will operate down to - 25.
'A man' is coming on Friday morn to add more glycol to it, followed on Friday afternoon by the engineer who commissioned it (a commisionaire?)
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>>
>> (a commisionaire?)
>>
...as it's so cold, probably be a Kommissar from Siberia....
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No heating again this morgen, It's only minus 2 outside, but the 'heat' pump has a covering of 2" of the white stuff.
Dunno how they would get on with an ASHP in parts of the land of the Scots where it was minus 17 in some parts yesterday.
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It should run a defrost cycle to clear the ice, sounds like it's either not set up properly, or there's something wrong with the temp sensor that is not picking up that it's iced up.
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The defrost cycle usually wakes me up at 3am, but I haven't heard it for a few nights - the water tank etc is right under my bedroom :)
As I say, engineer/s coming on Friday.
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>>As I say, engineer/s coming on Friday.
3 turned up from 9:30am onwards and were here for 6 and a half hours in all :)
First one, W, added the glycol which was a tad more involved than sticking some Bluecol in ya mark 2 Cortina on a Sunday morning!!
Second one, C, who was the kiddy when it comes to heat pumps, turned up in the afternoon, along with J, who did the original installation.
The radiators were installed with microbore piping, which made their job more difficult in getting the glycol round the system of 8 rads.
The glycol will 'slump' in the rad apparently, so they had to drain orf each rad until the blue stuff came out of the top.
When C completed setting up the technical side of things, W went round each rad with his thermal imaging camera thingy making sure all was well.
The Hive stat has been set to manual, with no schedules, so it's on 24/7.
Temp is set to 19, which I reduce to 18 overnight. Having had no heating most of this week, 18 feels rather warm, so I've left it at that for now (1 degree outside)
C ran through things to do if I ever smell burning or if the tank explodes underneath my bedroom etc.
Wishing you all a warm Christmas :)
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>>The glycol will 'slump' in the rad apparently
I learnt that when rebuilding an Austin 7 engine. The waterways were partly blocked by a jelly like substance. The anti-freeze had 'set'. It relied upon thermo-syphon to circulate the coolant and without a pump to agitate it happens.
Another car would boil the coolant for the same reason. Simple to cure with a good flush.
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>>I learnt that when rebuilding an Austin 7 engine
They had an Austin 7 on Bangers and Cash yesterday, I liked the look of it, until big Derek climbed into it and made it look like a Noddy car.
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>> They had an Austin 7 on Bangers and Cash yesterday, I liked the look of
>> it, until big Derek climbed into it and made it look like a Noddy car.
I had that problem, 6'1" and sixteen stone. Only drove it once and couldn't bend my legs to get out (christ knows how I got in). Had to get my upper body on the floor outside the car and crawl out!
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>> Wishing you all a warm Christmas :)
Glad to hear that your heating is up and running again, Dog.
Happy Xmas!
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>>Happy Xmas!
And you CS, plus a healthy new year.
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>> It should run a defrost cycle to clear the ice
Problem with our office aircon (in heat mode) is that the defrost cycle takes ages to perform, so we sit freezing our bits off whilst waiting for the heat to kick in, and then when it does it only lasts a few minutes before it has to do another defrost. By the end of the day the temperature is finally tolerable, but even though it's been on since midnight, first thing at 9 it's rather cold.
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-17Deg in Northern Scotland.
In the remote parts / islands there is no gas supply - electricity is too expensive for heating - it's oil / calor gas heating or coal fires/boilers.
Big storms a year past had people with no electricity for 2-3 weeks in some cases. Central heating is useless without pumps/ignition hence the bottled gas, coal fires/Aga/Rayburn etc
A local coalman delivers 30 ton loads in Sept/October time to estates in the highlands - the estate the divides the coal up amongst the estate cottages, some estate employees foc as it is part of their pay, tenants pay the estate owners.
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>> In the remote parts / islands there is no gas supply - electricity is too
>> expensive for heating - it's oil / calor gas heating or coal fires/boilers.
Media reports over the weekend highlighted a resurgence of peat burning in Ireland.
It will be interesting, when next visiting the Western Isles, to see whether the same trend is visible.
We've been going there for about 40 years and on of the very noticeable changes is the disappearance of peat stacks outside houses and lack of the smell of the smoke lingering around villages.
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Parents had oil for generator, two hours electricity in the evenings, taken to Island off Mull on an old landing craft in September. Ran chest freezers, stuffed with old eiderdowns, on that power, plus bit of tv etc. Cooking, hot water and heating was provided by solid fuel Rayburn in the centre of the cottage.
Cousins funeral in Edinburgh not attended by the Shetland based family this week.
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I still long for a solid fuel Rayburn in a live in kitchen. I had an oil fired one back in the day, but It's not the same.
2 friends up on Bodmin Moor had 'em, and I well remember how toasty their places always were.
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>No heating again this morgen, It's only minus 2 outside, but the 'heat' pump has a covering of 2" of the white stuff.
Maybe it's on strike for better conditions.
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We should exchange notes on this Dog when we have more data.
Albeit we have had ours running since April, the outside unit was replaced on 2 December when it was "cold", but since then of course it has got "colder".
Early days and I am still tweaking and learning, but there is a very clear relationship between outside temperature and power consumption as you'd expect.
From 3-7 Dec I estimated the mean outside temp at 4.5C; HP consumed an average of 24.7 kWh / £8.87 per day.
From 8-13 Dec I estimated the mean temp at -1.2C; HP consumed an average of 37.3 kWh / £13.35 per day.
At the moment I'm guessing it's using a bit of energy to defrost itself.
Its own performance figures look poor - what I haven't worked out yet is whether they are accurate. There seems to be a very small difference in the flow and return temperatures and I think the sensors might be incorrectly fitted or situated. When there's a bit more data I'll get on to Mitsubishi. The house is warm - I can't see how it would get warm enough if the temp drop across the loops was as low as is reported (about 2 degrees).
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Minus eight here. The hot tub is going back in the garage this weekend.
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>> Minus eight here. The hot tub is going back in the garage this weekend.
But you'll still be using it?
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We only moved in about 2 weeks ago, Mano'tea, so all new to me. No landline here yet, so I've been using an olde Moto E4 Plus to access the internet - virtually no signal here either (fun & games!)
I've not checked on our energy use yet, but I have read up on heat pumps and energy use in cold weather :(
One site even suggested a hybrid system of conventional boiler plus an ASHP :)
New build like you so 17 degrees indoors, and I'm sitting here in shorts and T shirt.
Who needs heating??
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I doubt if it's worth having a gas boiler and a heat pump in our climate. I might have tried 18 degrees, but herself feels the cold and there's no question of having it any cooler than she's happy with. TBH I'm a bit nesh as well. Living room stat's set at 22-23. Temp at sitting down level settles at around 20-21. Bed and bathrooms a bit cooler but not much, so that could account for what looks like a chunky cost. I've already forecast £3,000 of electric this year and looks as if half of that will fall in Dec-Feb. We do have a high phantom load here as well, what with cameras, ventilation system, alarm, outside lights
Some people we know locally have their heating at 14C. I don't think they are hard up, they have just got obsessed with energy saving. They seem to be OK, but I think they are quite likely to have damp problems at that temperature.
We've been using the log burner in the evenings. I've been buying logs for convenience, I can get through maybe £2-3 worth in an evening. I have more or less got the hang of the stove but I find I have to give it quite a bit of attention to keep it in the zone of usefulness - i.e. not smouldering low, or infernally hot.
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>> as well. Living room stat's set at 22-23.
What? ruddy hell thats high. We are comfortable with 19, with maybe a 30 minute boost to 20 late evening, an thats in a poorly insulated 1930s build
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>>What? ruddy hell thats high
Sounds high to me too. I even checked the stat display was accurate. I don't know what height they are usually at, ours are all about 1.5m off the floor. It does stratify a bit and if I pass any comment she shows me the little thermometer on her side table that typically reads 2 degrees lower. We aren't sitting around in T shorts and shorts either. When she settles down of an evening to watch TV she is wrapped in her 'slanket' a sort of sleeved blanket/poncho thing that just leaves her head poking out.
There are absolutely no draughts and the floor isn't cold either due to the underfloor heating.
I think we do train ourselves to a certain temperature. The folk we know who have set their heating to 14 are the same age as we are. There's no chance of retraining her unless I remove all the thermometers and turn off the displays on the stats.
An ex-neighbour came by to drop a Christmas card yesterday and I hauled him in for a coffee and a Tunnocks wafer. He commented on how 'cosy' it was as he doffed his coat.
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>>I think they are quite likely to have damp problems at that temperature
Plus condensation :(
The Hive thermostat in the hall is set at 19 degrees, which we find okay ... when the HP is working.
I like heat though - lived in Tenerife for 3 years. Starting to feel a tad chilly now though, out 'walking the dog' in 30 mins, might have to put a jumper on later when I sit down to watch Bangers and Cash :)
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>> >>I think they are quite likely to have damp problems at that temperature
>>
>> Plus condensation :(
>>
That's what I was thinking of. If your house is at 14 degrees it's inevitable that there will be areas of outside wall, maybe also hidden by furniture, that are much colder than that. They have almost certainly limited the ventilation by bunging up all the gaps and keeping the windows shut. Human occupation creates moisture. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a fine crop of mould by the spring if they keep it up.
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>> That's what I was thinking of. If your house is at 14 degrees it's inevitable
>> that there will be areas of outside wall, maybe also hidden by furniture, that are
>> much colder than that. They have almost certainly limited the ventilation by bunging up all
>> the gaps and keeping the windows shut. Human occupation creates moisture. I wouldn't be surprised
>> if they have a fine crop of mould by the spring if they keep it
>> up.
Previous house was a seventies built detached with bare cavity walls and gas warm air heating.
We replaced the original rotten and draughty softwood windows and doors with decent double glazing. With young children and clothes drying all the time we had constant issues with mould in corners and behind furniture on outside walls.
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AIUI, if the temperature is lower then the air contains less water vapour. If a room is warmer, it follows the air could contain more water vapour. Wouldn't there be more chance of condensation forming on a cold surface?
This place I've bought has damp patches in the top corners of the main bedroom. I try to maintain the temperature in there at 15c overnight. There's 250mm of insulation in the loft and cavity wall insulation mortar plugs in the walls. I suspect the cavity wall insulation may have 'slumped', as there's no evidence of it in the loft. I'm wondering if it's polystyrene balls. I can't ask the previous owner as he's dead. We're going to have some windows replaced and hopefully get a peek into the cavity then.
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>> We're going to have some windows replaced and hopefully get a peek into the cavity
>> then.
>>
...if it's polystyrene balls, you'll soon find out, as will the rest of the street.... :-(
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>>if it's polystyrene balls, you'll soon find out, as will the rest of the street.... :-(
Didn't they use a light glue to bind them together, so that didin't happen?
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>>
>> Didn't they use a light glue to bind them together, so that didin't happen?
>>
...they might do now; from experience it doesn't look like they did 40+ years ago.
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>>AIUI, if the temperature is lower then the air contains less water vapour. If a room is warmer, it follows the air could contain more water vapour. Wouldn't there be more chance of condensation forming on a cold surface?
Possibly. Heat is no guarantee that's true, the bathroom in the rental we had was well heated but mould grew in several places - ventilation comes in to it. But for a given amount of water the relative humidity will be higher in the air there is and the wall will presumably be colder.
It wasn't in my mind when I decided to put the MVHR* in here, but it does manage the humidity very well. It moves the equivalent of the house full of air every 2.4 hours. The bathroom humidity is usually 35-45%. It goes up to maybe 90% if someone has a long shower, and there's condensation on the windows, but in less than an hour it's gone and the RH is back below 50%.
*mechanical ventilation with heat recovery
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>>walking the dog' in 30 mins
Cold out there, colder than I've felt for many a year, and I had on a heavyweight T shirt, a sweatshirt, and 2 fleeces, one of which was a North Face 'Aleutian' fleece I paid £90 for 24 years ago :)
Anyway, when I came back I clouted the HP and the fan started working. The rads are now lukewarm, so maybe there will some warmth for Bangers and Cash at 9pm.
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I've already forecast £3,000 of electric this year
>> and looks as if half of that will fall in Dec-Feb. We do have a
>> high phantom load here as well, what with cameras, ventilation system, alarm, outside lights
>>
How much do you think it would if you had gas? I've seen a few reports of the heat pumps, they look pretty expensive to run. Alot more than gas.
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Don't worry.
The evenings are drawing out now.
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...but the mornings aren't...
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>> I've already forecast £3,000 of electric this year
>> >> and looks as if half of that will fall in Dec-Feb. We do have
>> a
>> >> high phantom load here as well, what with cameras, ventilation system, alarm, outside lights
>>
>> >>
>>
>> How much do you think it would if you had gas? I've seen a few
>> reports of the heat pumps, they look pretty expensive to run. A lot more than gas.
Sorry - long answer.
Good question, which I'm trying to assess. The £3,000 is based on current prices and about 8,200kWh. Of that, heat pump is about 4,300kWh, the remainder other stuff - although I think up to 1000kWh of the "other" might be heating-related being the cost of running the UFH pumps!
However the heat pump is averaging 38kWh in the current weather, out of a consumption of 54kWh total. Wife likes to be warm, and the mean outside temp for the last few days has been c. -1.5 degrees C. Before that, with a mean temp of 4.5 C, the heat pump was only 24kWh/day - so that 6 degree drop has cost £4-£5 a day.
I believe gas is currently about 10p/kWh and electric about 35p. For heating the cost should therefore be similar BUT there is the question of how it's used. I think if we had a gas boiler, I'd be stopping it at say 10pm and firing it up at 5am. We have been told to run the heating and DHW 24/7. This is because (1) the underfloor heating is not very reactive, from cold it will take at least 24 hours to warm the house, and (b) there is an overhead to starting the heat pump from cold so it becomes less efficient overall when it is stopped and started.
However I'm pretty sure we can tweak it. Maybe stop it at 9pm and restart at say 4am. Or heat water twice a day instead of all the time. I can also adjust the thermostats better - at the moment the unused and lightly used rooms are at 17-18 degrees. I don't want to keep them too cold but there's scope there. I'm getting a decent benchmark before I start complicating matters.
What I will say is that there seems to be plenty of scope with heat pumps for terrible installations and also that installers rarely give much information to users. If you're lucky, your installer will use a reasonable initial set up but that isn't always the case.
One really annoying thing is that when the unit is connected to the internet, the manufacturer collects very detailed data of which a very reduced and simplified subset is all I can access. The hourly data is overwritten every day for example. This is very common. One manufacturer, I have just read, (Global Energy Systems) only gives free access to this for 3 years, after which they want £150 a year for access!
I think my installation is probably OK but some of the information I am getting from the associated app looks garbage.
** Is this reasonable? It's a 5 bedroom 2 storey detached house built in 2021. Any got a similar situation with gas CH for comparison?
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Thanks, i guess it's difficult to compare like for like. I'm just trying to get my head around a mass role out of these replacing gas boilers.
I think new gas boilers are banned from 2030. They seem very expensive to buy, at least as expensive to run in some/many cases if not more.
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Just checked my EPC.
Estimated energy used to heat this property
Type of heating Estimated energy used
Space heating 5604 kWh per year
Water heating 2351 kWh per year
My forecast which is extrapolated from a few months use with added seasonality, is actually quite a bit lower for heat pump use. i.e. 3351 for heating and 950 for water. Include 1000 for the pumps makes 5301, vs 7955 on the EPC. As I understand it the EPC takes account of the efficiency of the heating system so these figures should be comparable.
Mind you, the EPC also says the yearly energy cost for tis property (heating, hot water and lighting) should be £801. They must have used <10p / unit.
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An interesting article here, one of many of course. Minus 5.5 here this morning and no heating :o)
www.beeco.green/facts/air-source-heat-pumps-disadvantages/
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-6c here, app says real feel -10c
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I love the fact that the original post was disparaging of the media obsession with the weather
“we are in December which I thought was in winter……”
and we have managed to post nearly 150 comments about it.
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Daughter said her car reported -7 this morning in Wokingham, tallies with one of the weather apps.
No heating on yet for the day. Doesn't usually go on till we are setting in the lounge later on - mainly because it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference in the other rooms for a large cost, despite the expenditure on it in the past year or so!!
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Soft southerners eh?
-8C here.
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-10 showing in the car this morning at 0630, none of the apps mentioned it being anywhere close to that for overnight.
I then only had to drive just over a mile off of the North Downs and the temp had risen to -4.5
Last edited by: Rudedog on Thu 15 Dec 22 at 12:37
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news.sky.com/story/rollout-of-150m-heat-pump-scheme-branded-embarrassing-after-installation-target-missed-12857090
I think these will end up like smart meters, eventually rolled out but a lot longer than governments think it will.
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Most folk will only change their heating system when the old one fails.
As most domestic heating is with gas boilers this is likely to take 20+ years. Flats which tend to be electric won't have the space to install heat pumps.
Even after the government subsidy, the cost to instal a heat pump system (including radiator and pipework alterations) far exceeds the cost of a new gas boiler - makes it a non-starter for most!
The only question - do we applaud them for trying or criticise them for failing?
If we don't try we will never succeed. Innovation involves risk. Fortunately the cost of failure has been less than the original budget, unlike (say) HS2 where the cost of failure has seen the budget multiply several fold.
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Yes it will be slow, even more so while it's still possible and cheaper just to replace a gas boiler like for like . People don't buy new heating systems like new cars, they buy one when the old one is bust or too expensive to run. Since most are on gas, which costs about the same per kWh of heat for now, much easier just to chuck a new gas boiler in and a lot cheaper and quicker. We only did HP because we were building the house.
That's before considering the rest of the system. You can't just hang a heat pump on to a wet system with radiators sized for 65 degree C water flow, so you need to fit bigger rads. And microbore piping will need replacing. And heat pumps cost more, and the installation certainly does. You're not going to want to start on all that when your heating breaks down in January.
There's also a lot of bad stories around about heat pumps not getting the house warm enough or using too much electricity.
FWIW, our air source heat pump (ASHP) consumed about 3700kWh for heating and hot water from Apr 22 to Mar 23. That's for a 212 sq. metre heated space with a B energy rating. (the heat pump has its own meter, although I'm pretty sure the pumps aren't on it, so they might use maybe 300kWh a year?).
Insulation is important whatever your heating source. our ASHP is rated at 11.2kW (output). We could probably have got away with 8kW but it was a bit marginal. Most builders/plumbers will just throw in a 30kW gas boiler for the average house without doing any sort of heat loss calculation. That's one of the reasons that gas CH tends to be a lot more responsive, it typically has a much bigger margin to heat the house up quickly as well as replacing the ongoing heat loss. I think this probably accounts for some of the stories of heat pumps just not warming the house enough. If we turn the heating off when we go away in cold weather, it could take 24 hours to get the house warm again when we get home. (it doesn't help in that respect that we have underfloor heating which has a big lag) We just run it 24/7 except for 3-4 months in the summer when the house is more likely to be over warm just through solar gain.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 15 Apr 23 at 11:11
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I regularly see people saying the money would be much more effective, and cheaper per property, if it were spent on more insulation for homes rather than heat pumps. I suppose that doesn't achieve the shift away from gas though.
I've also read the stories of pumps being noisy, expensive and inefficient, particularly when retro-fitted to existing CH.
It's the sort of thing which would normally raise interest but in this instance I've read enough real life stories (from forums, not newspapers) that Ill let it pass for now.
Batteries would be ahead of heat pumps in my preferences but I'm even dubious about whether they are really worth the cost and effort - I can see they look it right now, with extraordinarily high electric prices, but once they start to fall (which could be because of the generation costs coming down or decoupling gas from the generation cost) I'm not so sure.
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>> I regularly see people saying the money would be much more effective, and cheaper per
>> property, if it were spent on more insulation for homes rather than heat pumps. I
>> suppose that doesn't achieve the shift away from gas though.
Surely we need a national integrated scheme for domestic property. It should deliver heat pumps (or whatever other tech might crop up), insulation and solar as well as modifcations to or, in extremis, replacement of truly poor quality hosing in terms of damp etc.
In parallel we should have been moving more to onshore wind, both local and large scale, for electricity. What scope is there for district heating in some parts? Geo thermal heat?
It should have commenced years ago, probably before even the Con/Lib coalition was in office, starting with mandating what exactly new builds were required to have. No doubt the house builders would have kicked up the most god awful stink but frankly they need us more than we need them.
Is anything like that being thought through by ANY major party ahead of thr forthcoming GE?
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Surely we need a national integrated scheme for domestic property. It should deliver heat pumps
>> (or whatever other tech might crop up), insulation and solar as well as modifcations to
>> or, in extremis, replacement of truly poor quality hosing in terms of damp etc.
What do you mean by deliver; the gov should buy, make, install HP or something else?
>> In parallel we should have been moving more to onshore wind, both local and large
>> scale, for electricity. What scope is there for district heating in some parts? Geo thermal
>> heat?
From what i've read geo thermal is minimal in the UK there's a few areas, Cornwall and the Peak district but that about it. There's a few places that gain heat from old coal mines (I think near Newcastle) but again minimal on a national scale.
Gov dropped on-shore due to local area objections being mainly Con voters. LD, I think are quietly against them as well to try and pick up any seats in those areas. Not sure Labour have said much about them.
>> Is anything like that being thought through by ANY major party ahead of thr forthcoming
>> GE?
>>
The government brought out an announcement about a new energy plan. Seemed mainly to be about nuclear and off shore wind.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 15 Apr 23 at 14:00
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I doubt it but I don't think the lack of shifts in power generation to renewables can all be blamed on the government (any hue). I understand the public votes down many schemes, both onshore and offshore, solar and wind, and generally opposes nuclear.
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>> I regularly see people saying the money would be much more effective, and cheaper per
>> property, if it were spent on more insulation for homes rather than heat pumps. I
>> suppose that doesn't achieve the shift away from gas though.
You'd certainly save a lot of gas if all houses were well insulated, even if they were all still on gas. I think the record worst year for the 120 sq.m. bungalow we knocked down was 27,000 kWh of gas!
>> I've also read the stories of pumps being noisy, expensive and inefficient, particularly when
>> retro-fitted to existing CH.
Can't hear ours, although it isn't next to a habitable room. More importantly, the neighbour whose house is 6 metres from it can't hear it.
>> It's the sort of thing which would normally raise interest but in this instance I've
>> read enough real life stories (from forums, not newspapers) that Ill let it pass for
>> now.
If you have gas you won't save anything except to the extent you can use solar electricity to run it.
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Especially as mu gas is only 5.4p a unit at the moment :-)
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Have seen a few new housing estates around here and of course the houses all have solar panels on the roof.
However what strikes me is that the roofs are never full of panels. I am guessing that there is a legal minimum of panels that the builders need to provide and that’s all they do?
And when the house is actually sold to a customer I am guessing it is not easy for that customer to then add extra panels?
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Whether you can add panels depends on the config really. For best performance the inverter is usually undersized for the array, so if your inverter is already undersized and you go sticking more panels on it would be limited at the converter anyway, unless you get a new inverter (now well north of £800 I imagine plus fitting)
I'm limited by my Feed In Tariff agreement to what is on my roof at install time, even down to the exact type and output of panel - I'm not sure what I'd have to do if one broke, but that's fairly rare. I don't believe this applies to new installs as there is no/little FIT. I think if I extended mine it would have to be a separate array and inverter but I'm not sure - and I have no more roof space anyway!
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Another aspect, and I could be wrong here.
But the panels seem to be in place of roof tiles as opposed to mounted on top of the roof tiles. Would that be right? And thus make it more difficult to add more?
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Newer panels can be in place of roof tiles but I don't know much about them
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>> Newer panels can be in place of roof tiles but I don't know much about
>> them
Some years ago now, c 2006, we were at an NT place in the West Country where what, at first glance, looked like ordinary interlocking tiles actually were photovoltaic devices. They may have been on the wrong side of the cost/benefit curve because of their location but they were doing what they were meant for in terms of their design/location.
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Integrated solar panels are cheaper than roof tiles if re-roofing. I imagine most "big" house builders aren't savvy enough from a financial perspective to have figured this out.
My roof is only 10 years old, but when the time comes I'll get it done with solar tiles. Right now it just has 12 panels in an E/W configuration driving a 3.7kW inverter and 5.2kWh of batteries. Not quite enough to get through the day in Dec/Jan, but from February onwards it'll deliver a full charge.
From April onwards it provides sufficient electricity to shut down the oil boiler and rely on the immersion heaters and electric fire while topping off the car.
I do get quite resentful about the original FIT schemes as they should never have existed, and realistically should be scrapped now and the payments returned to the standard 4.1p, with the excess redirected towards people who genuinely can't afford utilities at today's prices.
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Can't really disagree re the old FIT schemes even though I'm on one - though I'd miss the 62p or whatever it now is!! And of course my system cost me £10.5k for a very modest system (2.73Kw) in 2011 whereas I could get probably twice the size for half the money now.
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>> I do get quite resentful about the original FIT schemes as they should never have
>> existed, and realistically should be scrapped now and the payments returned to the standard 4.1p,
>> with the excess redirected towards people who genuinely can't afford utilities at today's prices.
That, with added emphasis.
People who own their own roof and had multiples of £k to spend on a solar/FIT project are making money from it. That money comes from an addition to everybody else's bills including those on prepay struggling to avoid self disconnection.
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Do you not invest your money in the hope that it will grow?
I suppose if you do you go out of your way make sure it's only in ethical investments.
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>> Do you not invest your money in the hope that it will grow?
Of course I do though I think with solar/FIT you're investing for income rather than growth.
One tries to invest ethically or at least to avoid stuff where the returns are exploitative.
I'd regard the return in the original feed in tariff derived from charging everyone, including the poorest, extra money on their unit cost and or fixed charges as exploitative of those on the lowest incomes.
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I will be honest, I was keen to get panels mostly as a regular early adopter of tech, I didn't even think (maybe didn't even know) about how it was funded at the time, and I was only able to get them as I had some windfall money (inheritance) to invest. I wasn't interested in income then, only to the point that it would eventually reach the day when the panels paid for themselves and after that I would start earning.
For me it was quite a sizeable single lump to invest at the time at the time but I was fairly sure it was reasonably risk free. No-one saw the current high energy costs coming, or the havoc it would wreak, or the inflation which has bumped up the FIT, especially 12 years ago.
I've now had about £15.7k paid back to me, plus a modest amount saved on my bills (I think £576 but I can't remember how my spreadsheet works!). That's about 3.7% compound (albeit tax free) at the moment, ignoring the about £1.2k I had to pay for a replacement inverter and also some costs on protecting the panels from pigeons. It's hardly a fortune.
I don't really like that it is seen as exploitative and I'm not sure that's entirely fair, as to me exploitation implies intent. I didn't go in it to exploit, and AFAIR fuel poverty wasn't quite the "thing" it now is (though I suppose it existed). Whatever, if FF doesn't like his FIT payments I'm sure a charity will be very grateful for them, but it is part of my income now which I'd sooner not give up or have taken away.
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Like lots of these schemes, it nudges people who can pay for it all to buy into it (EVs, Solar panels, air source pumps etc ) with a government subsidy. It's unfortunate that this means others have to pay for something that they probably can afford anyway.
However this subsidy often drives the market, I believe since FIT was dropped the amount of solar panels fitted to houses has dropped. That's probably not a coincidence.
EVs are similar, people who buy cars at £2k don't drive the market.
Only way around it is to start fitting them for free, I don't think that's happening soon. I think fitting panels to houses will drop off anyway, electricity generated will be mainly commercial farms. I see there's various plans going in across the E of England that will add GWs to the grid.
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The mornings are getting darker now.
Winter is on its way.
We are all doomed, I tell you.
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Yesterday got back from a weeks holiday in the Jura region of France, lovely weather hot but not too hot.
Today both BBC weather and the Met app had where I am in the SE as being dry and warm for the whole day, 11am and it absolutely tipped down for at least 30 minutes, then it became very humid, just now it's started to rain again - checked both apps and we should be dry with all of the potential storms coming tomorrow.
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Did you walk any of the GR5 ? Good few years since myself and some French & Belgian Friends had 7/10 days walking North to South late one September. On the final day into Nyon the heavens opened, but we were blessed to see the festival of cattle being brought down the mountain into their winter accommodation. Cowbells to make your ears ring, and some wearing wonderful garlands.
Names that I remember are Ribeauville, Villers le Lac, Les Rousses and limestone escarpments at Mont d’Or. Previous year we followed the GR5 through the Vosges..Doubs gorge and Belfont, famous for farm made cheese...could be wrong.
Great memories of two wonderful back packing journeys.
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As suspected the government will row back on some of the environmental commitments, Labour look to be doing the same.
news.sky.com/story/michael-gove-calls-for-relaxation-of-net-zero-measures-and-warns-against-treating-environment-as-religious-crusade-12925829
Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 26 Jul 23 at 09:39
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Its fascinating how the ULEZ, which is about pollution by airborne poisons, is conflated with net zero/CO2 stuff.
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I would say it's about both. It's in the same box marked, environmental things that not everyone can afford.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 26 Jul 23 at 09:47
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Clearly we can afford it. It's the developing world that struggles. Even there, resource development seems not to benefit the people at the bottom and in fact the well known resource curse seems to have stopped or reversed progress in public health in areas of Nigeria where big oil is making billions.
If there is a conspiracy around climate change, I'd say it's on the side of the big non-renewable energy producers and their investors. The same companies that ran campaigns for the tobacco companies to show how cigarettes were safe are working for oil companies to undermine belief in climate science.
I am losing patience with climate deniers I come across in 'real life'. The common factor I believe is sheer stupidity, an inability to reason.
No one can prove the world could become uninhabitable owing to anthropogenic causes but (i) the overwhelming majority of climate scientists believes it, and more importantly, it can't be disproved either. So let's just ignore them and hope for the best, eh?
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www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0fzltvd/what-they-really-mean-for-you-series-1-2-heat-pumps
An hour show that covers heat pumps from being installed, to training installers, gov grants etc.
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I've not listened to it but I gather they aren't all they're cracked up to be economy wise, not particularly effective without a raft of changes alongside the actual pump, and also quite noisy.
Still, my next door neighbour (recently retired plumber) is thinking of doing the MCS course cos it's cheaper for him to do that and install his own rather than pay the extortionate installation costs currently being charged!!
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The house in the show, a fairly big bungalow, took 6 blokes a week to change over at a cost of £18k.
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I live in southernish Sweden, in a 2 story house, but only use the ground floor as I have a bedroom and bathroom on this floor. The ground floor is about 60m2, windows are janky old double glazed, and the walls are solid timber 7cm thick, ie. badly insulated. Upstairs is left unheated, so I lose heat through the ceiling, and underneath is an unheated cellar.
There is no mains gas here, so my main source of heat is a single air source heat pump, basically a split a/c unit on the wall of the living room. Its a Mitsubishi unit kicking out 7kw at 7˚ outside temp, dropping to 4kw at -10˚. It draws about 1.2kw at full chat. I keep the house at about 20/21˚, and as its not really open plan, temperature drops about 1˚ per doorway, so kitchen and bedroom are a degree or so cooler. This works fine to down to around minus 10 if its not windy, or minus 5 if its blowing a bit.
So I can’t understand why the UK has so much trouble with heat pumps. If a small single unit can work here with my poorly insulated house and much colder temperatures, they should work well in a more temperate climate. I think a lot of it comes down to method of use, ie. it needs to be run at the same temperature 24/7, and not the british way of turning it up and down constantly. I remember the old british way of setting the timer and fannying about with the thermostat constantly.
Of course, the economic factor of gas and electric prices is something else.
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Why does it need to be run at the same temp setting 24/7 Dave? Response time?
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Because they’re not man enough to bring the temperature back up when its cold outside, unlike a gas boiler that kicks out 30kw and scorching hot radiators. Thats why I think people have trouble with them, because they’re used to having the gas boiler on for a few hours in the morning, then again in the evening.
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We even have apps that promote this saying you can send a message to your boiler to come on as you are on your way home to give it an extra boost so it's nice warm as you walk through the door.
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I have a Daikin Altherma ASHP here and I'm quite happy wivvit so far. The owse is a timber-framed new build 3 bed with an EPC of B, so well insulated.
I only have the temp set at 18 degrees in the black season, and wear shorts and T shirt indoors. TBH the rads rarely get warm, let alone hot at that temp setting.
Tis a warm owse, at the moment (8:00pm) it's 24 degrees in the lounge, and 14.7 outside. Bit warm knowlmean.
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Having just joined Octopus, I noticed in the app a link to get a heat pump quote. I filled in the details out of interest.
The quote is in. I was surprised. It is apparently actually a quote, rather than a guess. As they haven’t seen the property…
Anyway, it says it’s for the pump, all ancillaries, any and all rads or pipe work that need changing.
Six and a half thousand. Would have been eleven and a half, but there’s a five thousand Government grant at the minute.
It’s in the inbox while I think about it.
However, suggesting it to Mrs C didn’t go down well. She thought it quixotic, her word, to chuck out our perfectly working oil boiler.
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I very much doubt there's any work behind this other that on how it will play with the "base".
To call it a new way of governing is a sick joke. A new way would be to have some standards and integrity. Instead it is a cynical lunge to populism, another front in the culture war.
He opened by pledging to ban a list of things that he'd basically invented.
I had high hopes that Sunak was at least going to be honest, he's just another crook. His only good point is that he isn't Johnson or Truss.
The country is a laughing stock.
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The National Grid requires huge upgrades to deliver the extra energy needed to replace gas heating in homes, offices & factories.
Essentially the power produced needs to get from the source to where it is needed.
Pylons and substations need upgrading to handle higher demands.
Giving the NG some extra time may, in the end , result in fewer power cuts than currently envisaged.
Our biggest hope is a mild winter 23/24 - the reason ? There are less 24x7 Coal & Nuclear Power available today than there was back in 2010/2011 when we last had a "really cold winter".
Admittedly there is more wind power however it fails the 24x7 on demand requirement we require in our electricity supply.
Power cuts = No gas heating
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It was of course Johnson who brought in the targets for the end of ICE cars and gas boilers.
Who was right. Sunak or Johnson?
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>> It was of course Johnson who brought in the targets for the end of ICE
>> cars and gas boilers.
>>
>> Who was right. Sunak or Johnson?
This and the other related cans kicked down the road are worth their own thread.
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>> >> I had high hopes that Sunak was at least going to be honest, he's just
>> another crook. His only good point is that he isn't Johnson or Truss.
If I catch the drift of your post correctly...
Why didn't you keep Blair?
Of all people, why choose the unelectable Corbyn?
Why can't you embrace Starmer?
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My answers not Manatees but:
>> Why didn't you keep Blair?
Was that on offer? The Blair/Brown deal is disputed but at the time the choice to go was his.
>> Of all people, why choose the unelectable Corbyn?
There's a whole question there, which could be seen as murky, as to why Corbyn was 'unelectable'. It might also be pointed out that for somebody who was 'unelectable' he gave your lot a bit of a fright in 2017.
>> Why can't you embrace Starmer?
He's chosen to position himself as he has. Personally I cannot remain a member of a party that will not tax wealth or ask more of high earners.
Given I live in a place where anything with a blue rosette will win, even in a 97 style landslide, my own vote has zero value. I could footslog in a marginal but I won't.
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>> My answers not Manatees but:
I am afraid, Brompy, that it is the same questions and answers from your side and my side that will bounce backwards and forwards endlessly.
Why did your lot allow the 2008 crash/slump to occur, and so on.
But, I must agree - what the electorate saw in Johnson is lost on me. I refused to vote for him.
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>> Why did your lot allow the 2008 crash/slump to occur, and so on.
My answer would be the usual one. The crash was a worldwide thing. Brown came out of it with credit for for brigading the other big economies to do what was needed
The regulatory environment that allowed the banks to gamble themselves into insolvency is another question
I don't remember the opposition, here or in the US, calling for a slow down/reverse on dregulation.
What was happening beyond the crisis is contested. Green shoots and all that. Could/should the coalition have done less cutting?
That's 15 years ago and has not got much relevance to the conundrum we face now with Starmer. I've always been on the mixed economy Croslandite pews of the broad church but, as under Blair I'm a dangerous lefty. Not prepared to give my time footslogging for him but I think, political earthquakes excluded, he'll be OK without me and my kin.
>> But, I must agree - what the electorate saw in Johnson is lost on me.
>> I refused to vote for him.
Times radio has or had - not heard it recently - a panel of electors whose deliberations were being podcast. The number who thought Johnson 'one of us' while Starmer was born with a silver spoon in his mouth is frightening.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 22 Sep 23 at 10:08
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>> Times radio has or had - not heard it recently - a panel of electors
>> whose deliberations were being podcast. The number who thought Johnson 'one of us' while Starmer
>> was born with a silver spoon in his mouth is frightening.
>>
I find that fascinating, an average person can't like someone not like them. They should only like those in their lane.
You're working class you should like working class politicians, you shouldn't like BJ he's not one of yours.
Tbh i find that thought process baffling. Mind you i bet there's plenty in political parties that think the same.
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>> I find that fascinating, an average person can't like someone not like them. They should
>> only like those in their lane.
That wasn't what I was taking from the thing. Folks seemed to think Starmer was not authentic because of his title and/or accent. Yet he's a Grammar School boy whose Father was skilled working class - a toolmaker. He went to a red brick University and his knighthood, like his QC/KC, were the result of his career.
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>>
>> That wasn't what I was taking from the thing. Folks seemed to think Starmer was
>> not authentic because of his title and/or accent. Yet he's a Grammar School boy whose
>> Father was skilled working class - a toolmaker. He went to a red brick University
>> and his knighthood, like his QC/KC, were the result of his career.
People are entitled to form that opinion. Quite a few seem to think he's not authentic when talking about his background, they'll be reasons for that beyond his accent.
It's his job and his team to change that.
Does he come across to you as someone who made it from a working class background?
That's what he's trying to sell otherwise he wouldn't mention it.
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>...what the electorate saw in Johnson is lost on me. I refused to vote for him.
Easily explained.
He appealed to the voters who had no real interest in politics but were sick and tired of the lies and dishonesty of his predecessors. They saw him as a flawed but no-BS kinda guy. Just like themselves.
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>> They saw him as a flawed but no-BS kinda guy.
I saw him as a self centred, egotistical buffoon.
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 22 Sep 23 at 13:15
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>>They saw him as a flawed but no-BS kinda guy vile, self-centred, sexually incontinent bigot. Just like themselves.
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That may be the reality but I don't think people saw that, or didn't care. I think the buffoon thing is a facade he's developed that makes him appear non-threatening and puts people off their guard. Consequently, people underestimate him and he gets away with stuff others can't.
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> Personally I cannot remain a member of a party that will not tax wealth or ask more of high earners...
Out of interest, what is your personal definition of wealth?
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For the purposes of a wealth tax, north of £5 million with easements for domestic homes, pensions etc.
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What about if that wealth is an SME?
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>> What about if that wealth is an SME?
>>
According to the data from all UK banks that I've been looking over today, there won't be much wealth to tax there soon!
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>> My answers not Manatees but:
I can relate to much of that. I haven't cancelled my direct debit yet, let's get elected first, then we'll see.
On the face of it, Starmer and Reeves are fencing themselves in. If they won't raise taxes, can't do any better with growth, and won't borrow and spend, then it's hard to see how public services can be restored. I suspect that they are hanging their success on borrowing to invest.
I think there are fair ways of raising more, including some I haven't thought of. CGT is an obvious one. Exemplified by Sunak's and Starmer's tax returns. Sunak with an assessable income of over £5m paid 23% tax, Starmer with £0.35m paid 33% (from memory, so the figures might not be exactly right, but you get the drift).
The principal reason for this is income tax at 40%/45% above £50,000, and CGT at 20%. A large proportion of Sunak's £5m was capital gains, taxed mostly at 20%. Starmer's £350k was mostly earned. Dividends are taxed at up to 32%/38%. The properly rich tend to have mostly investment income, not wages. There's no NI with investments either.
Wealth taxes are tricky for all sorts of reasons but just equalising income tax and income/gains.
from wealth would raise c. £15bn per year (I don't know if that allows for behaviour change).
I understand why Starmer feels the need to make pledges e.g. on not rejoining EU or even SM/CU - he doesn't want to have the Brexit war again and neither do I - practically everything else has gone to hell and needs urgent attention. But the Tories are wise to this now and laying traps - I think there's an element of that in the supposed new net-zero policy. (The 'policy' so clearly inspired by the Uxbridge by-election win and which cannot possibly have been properly worked out in the period since).
Corbyn of course wasn't unelectable per se, although he is now. The main reason being the character assassination carried out by the despicable elements of fourth estate, much owned by non-doms who themselves pay little tax, although it has to be said that his handling of anti-semitism and the division his election created within Labour would have got him anyway. But I think Labour needs its left wing, not as a dominant force but to keep it on track, and I hope it finds its place again.
There's a big difference between Blair and Starmer. Blair could state and make his case in a way that Starmer, in fact most people, can't. Charisma can be dangerous, but the ability to articulate a vision is essential and Blair was pretty good at that. It's hard to disagree that Starmer has some way to go on that dimension.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 22 Sep 23 at 17:21
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>> Corbyn of course wasn't unelectable per se,
I submit that he was.
I believe he was perceived as the latest version of Michael Foot. Michael Foot had his 'donkey jacket', Corbyn had his Chinese leaders peaked cap. The people preferred the cheeky chappy Boris Johnson to the dinosaur Jeremy Corbyn.
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The whole reason that the media kicked up a fuss was that if Corbyn had been elected there would have been a recognition of the Palestinian state. This was deemed unacceptable.
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>> The whole reason that the media kicked up a fuss was that if Corbyn had
>> been elected there would have been a recognition of the Palestinian state. This was deemed
>> unacceptable.
I'd go with that too. Somebody overtly pro-Palestinian with a permanent seat on the Security Council was too much.
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Heard on the Labour back benches
“Are we nearly Blair yet?”
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>> Heard on the Labour back benches
>>
>> “Are we nearly Blair yet?”
>>
Interesting. I don’t see any real common ground between Starmer and Blair. He’s closer to John Major, but without the personality.
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I didn't realise it was getting colder in Stockport yesterday, but I did noticed that more women were wearing 200 denier tights.
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...if they'd been stockings your post might have been somewhat delayed ..?
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…only if combined with a Zimmer frame.
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And if they were wrinkled, Norah Batty style?
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Mrs Ted was in Stockport yesterday. Wish I'd known then I could have warned her !
Ted
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...had she borrowed your 200 denier rights, Ted...?
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Nah, they're too baggy for her !
Ted
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I seem to remember you used to drink at the Hesketh, Ted...? It's only gone and shut down :(
I had to drink and dine at the P5 next to the station instead this evening. Don't suppose you go there?
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Hi BigBad. No, only went to the Hesketh for lunch as it was half way between us and friends in Bramhall. They did a good carvery but it went off...as most do.
CH is too far for drinking, difficult to get to without driving and I just don't do that. Still meet up in the area for lunch, usually at The Three Bears now. Have a shandy or fresh orange......sad eh !
Ted
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Shame. My local on Turves Road was demolished years ago and replaced with a few houses so the only pub I enjoy is the Griffin in Heald Green. No problem walking to, not so easy walking back when you have the bladder the size of an egg cup...
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Nearly bought a house opposite the Griffin, new development behind the cottages opposite. Branksome Drive ? About 1970, still being built. My cousin bought next door but we were gazumped by the developer.
Griffin would have been my local. Very different now, I would imagine.
Ted.
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The Griffin was a great boozer, it had a piano that punters would play and was charging 99p a pint for bitter when it was about £1.30 everywhere else - that's why it has stuck in my mind. The best was the barmaid, in her 70s and would serve several people at a time. All the taps open, money being passed back and forth without spilling a drop and everyone served rapidly. Fascinating to watch (well, she was hot, obvs, course I was fascinated).
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It's winter - guess what it's cold! - sooty123
