I've been thinking about posting this over the weekend...
Friday meetings are never good. Proper meetings are on a Thursday which allows for a drink after work.
Friday, at the end of the month (well end of the accounting period on the 2nd) is never going to be good.
In the meeting, our new director insisted that we double our workload. He's a "systems person" and has never worked in credit risk business banking and doesn't understand what we do. He looks at the fields we complete and tots up how long it takes to complete the fields without any thought as to reading the case, looking through financials, the calculations and decisions that go in to the inputs made. (Pressing the approve button takes 10 seconds but has 15 hours work behind it.)
I wrote about the loss of key software in the computer section last year which made it difficult to complete half the number of cases per month, but we persevered. My colleagues are working weekends to keep up on the original numbers, let alone the new ones. The other edict is that case quality cannot suffer so there is no cutting the work that we do for each case.
We are not alone, our rivals have made seriously brutal cuts to their equivalent teams but they got redundancy payments. In the past, if we wanted a new job, we just called up one of our friends at the other banks, but they've all gone and my colleagues have done the same with their friends. The cuts are so deep that we no longer know anyone at the other banks. :-(
There are no such redundancy offers here. It has been made abundantly clear that it's a case of keep up or get performance managed out.
I'm too old for this carp and I'm not working 19 hours a day (I saw a colleague log on at 07:00 and log off 02:00 the next morning and the system shows idle time and there wasn't any).
I may think about early retirement, 5 years before I wanted to.
Timing wise, it's crap. I may see if I can hold out to the new year, but any crap and I'm walking.
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I can empathise with this so much. My last few years at work were ones of unremitting cuts and pressure. Mistakes were inevitable and then subject to forensic investigation and blame. Fifty, sixty hours a week plus travelling were the norm. Not nice. How you manage 19 hours a day in this environment is unthinkable.
Like you I saw it coming and luckily had an early retirement escape plan which proved successful. If you haven’t already done so it’s worth taking financial advice for example regarding maxing pension contributions and reducing outgoings. If you can, avoid a hasty decision and look at all the options including early medical retirement if that’s possible.
If you are minded to work elsewhere make sure your LinkedIn profile is up to date and consider registering with an Agency.
You’ve probably got all that covered but your situation resonated so much I just had to give you my pennyworth.
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And don’t forget, if they are treating you like crap then presumably you have a decent sick pay policy?
6 months full pay for stress should give you enough time to reconcile your thoughts, take stock of the situation and, most importantly, ironically so, see what life is like without the stress of work.
My brother was 58 when covid hit. Area manager for one of the bookies. Target after targets, management by spreadsheet. Been in the industry 35 years but kept getting new bosses that were fresh with the latest textbook and consultancy management techniques. Stressed. Irritable. Could never plan his social life due to work constraints and their habit of dropping in demands for new reports to be submitted.
Then covid hit. And they were all furloughed. And he sat back for 3 months and realised what life could really be like. Got hold of his pensions documentation, made enquiries and retired on his 60th birthday.
Is currently touring through Italy with his missus. Think this is his third holiday since retiring. The benefits of being able to commit to cheap Ryanair and EasyJet early flights releases without second thoughts.
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"6 months full pay for stress" - a mate did this (only 3 mths I think), went back for a few months then retired, at about 57 IIRC. He is comfortable but not rich but is a completely different character now, and has absolutely no regrets.
OTOH I know someone who felt they were indispensable and worked till about 70, retired and had Alzheimers within about 3 years....
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Your story resonates and looking back there is a sort of inevitability to it all.
Age 30, those in their 50s and 60s seemed thoroughly negative - a drag on the business. Tried it before and won't work resistant to change, inability to deal with new tech and ideas etc.
Inevitably I became one of the 50+. I began to adopt the views of those who 20 years earlier I had found so negative. Interesting jobs went to younger colleagues. Any opinions I had were increasingly ignored. I began to think old systems were the best. I was bored and demotivated.
I had the good fortune to be a public sector employee - when offered an early retirement deal (age 58) it took little time to accept. Absolutely no regrets since. I spent almost exactly 40 years (bar a few months) working - it was time to do something different for a decade or two (health etc permitting).
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In my outfit, the company started to actively manage those aged 45 and over out fo the company, despite being found to be an illegal practise in many jurisdictions.
So I took early retirement at 56, took a lump sum out my pension and paid off the mortgage. Did some part freelance consultancy (ironically at my old clients) for 3 years.
The government, alarmed by the lack of skilled/semi skilled workers did some research, and have found that 2.5 million workers aged 55 and over have left the labour pool.
Little wonder really.
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>> Age 30, those in their 50s and 60s seemed thoroughly negative - a drag on
>> the business. Tried it before and won't work resistant to change, inability to deal with
>> new tech and ideas etc.
The bolded bit is corporate memory. "Why will it be different this time?" is a very powerful question. There may be good reason now why something that failed before will work but on the other hand some things, like the laws of physics, are immutable.
>> I had the good fortune to be a public sector employee - when offered an
>> early retirement deal (age 58) it took little time to accept.
I too had that good fortune although the offer of early retirement was a consequence of the organisation I worked for being abolished. A lot of other colleagues were, and one or two still are, on the treadmill of ever increasing expectations and targets. The quango was, to some extent, protected by being an Arm's Length Body with an independent Chairman. Was required to be interviewed for posts as part of the redeployment process and, were I successful, I could see myself removed from the prospective redundancy pool with only a short trial period. Those I got interviews for were management heavy and frankly not the sort of role I'd want and where Performance Management was a risk for me.
I managed to avoid being offered anything until very late in the day by which time Voluntary Early Severance was actually on offer. The fact that the quango was not formally abolished until the relevant order. a Statutory Instrument subject to an affirmative vote in both houses, also helped. As did the fact I'd have a key role in winding up post abolition.
I had a letter from a high up conforming I could not be redeployed until abolition in August 2013. Caused no end of bother with the Redeployment Team who asserted such a letter should not have been written. I gave the relatively junior officer telling me I had to be interviewed for a post where somebody was needed immediately in June to take it up with the letter's author...
Left the service at the end of November with an unreduced pension. They kept me in harness for a final 3 months with literally nothing to do. A former manager who could have used my time to do some troubleshooting for him was spitting tacks!!!
Working now in the charitable sector we're a little removed. However, the DWP funded project I was on until the end of August this year was gradually becoming more call centre with a rigid target for daily cases and less time to be a proper Welfare Rights Adviser.
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I worked for a specialist government trading fund (TF) which relocated ~1200 people in ~2004.
By 2012 it was evident that the mix of employees was getting quite skewed - most who had made the commitment to move 150 miles were still there getting older (and set in their ways). Those recruited locally in ~2004 were also still there - generally younger and in developing careers.
The TF had a high level of financial independence - subject to the Treasury dividend requirements - make too much profit and the dividend went up.
The early retirement project (IMHO) soaked up surplus profits and benefitted the business bringing in new blood/new ideas etc. Better to "invest" in the business than give it to the Treasury.
That the Treasury got a lower dividend was not a major concern for the management of the TF!!
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>> The benefits of being able to commit to cheap Ryanair and EasyJet early flights releases >>without second thoughts.
Daughter and family flew back from Prague last week. Tested positive for covid yesterday. I wonder where she got that?
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Could be anywhere?
Plenty of covid in uk.
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>> Could be anywhere?
>> Plenty of covid in uk.
Daughter went to a hen night near Nottingham over the Aug BH weekend. Something over half the hens have since tested positive. D was feeling unwell bit tested negative. She's only just recovered from a bout where she was positive.
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"over half the hens have since tested positive"
For what, bird flu? :-)
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Lots of grumpy faces on the Teams meeting this morning.
One of the team leaders didn’t turn up.
Apparently he told the director to “stuff it” on Friday.
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 5 Sep 22 at 13:21
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Took the bus from Trogir to Split today. Bendy bus absolutely packed. Post covid survived seven flights, seven airports, numerous train and bus journeys, shops cafes and restaurants. Perhaps am pushing my luck but hey ho.
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I am in Zante Greece just now.
Didn’t bother with masks in any of the journey and none evident out here.
Still do the ONS monthly tests and my son who still lives with us got his results back saying he was positive on the last test even though he, and us, Knew nothing about it!
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I do the ONS survey too. £40 per month for a drop of blood and a throat swab is a nice little earner.
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>> I do the ONS survey too. £40 per month for a drop of blood and
>> a throat swab is a nice little earner.
Forty quid, I only get twenty now? I've never been asked for a vampirical sample, although SWMBO would be delighted if it would indicate her immunity (she's CEV - Clinically Extremely Vulnerable).
Last edited by: bathtub tom on Mon 5 Sep 22 at 21:47
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£40 for the two of us.
I think only a proportion of those tested were requested to give blood samples. They let you know if you have antibodies present although that does not necessarily indicate immunity.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Mon 5 Sep 22 at 22:21
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This Friday's meeting...
We were a well considered team in the business - a specialist credit risk unit. One down from the product's Managing Director (my boss reported to the MD).
As of Monday, we have now been transferred to a new business unit within the bank and we are 4 levels from the MD's office.
The new division is known for its commoditisation of the banks products. I.e. we will be streamlined, service levels will be cut. Workload will go up.
We now sit in operations which has a much narrower pay structure which means that pay-rises will be few and far between as many of the team are above the maximum for that department.
The MD spoke to us and said that workload will be high and they may take on more staff, but workload will also increase. There will be no redundancies (which is bally annoying)!
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I'm so glad I don't have to work anymore. That sort of stuff was endless in the company I worked the longest. As a computer technical group, we used to get a new manager fairly frequently, and it was never one of us techies, as we were too knowledgeable and valuable for our tech skills. New managers always want to change the way things are done but we went round in circles often ending up working exactly same as we had in years previously. We were fairly unmanageable anyway really, as there was a job to be done which we, but generally speaking not the managers, knew how to do, so we just had to cope with different processes wrapped around the same old work.
Having said that, my techy days were the most satisfying years of my working life, and I missed them when I was shuffled into technical project management.
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When we were 30-40 years old, the opinions and attitudes of the 50-60+ long service staff were often perceived as negative and obstructive. As we approach retirement we start to adopt the behaviours of which we were so critical 20-30 years earlier.
By my mid-50s I felt marginalised, interesting projects went to younger more energetic staff who parroted the corporate line. I considered going part time but fortunately a voluntary early retirement program intervened. I am now very happily retired.
Skills required of technical staff are very different to those required of managers. Tech staff need very specialist skills. Managers need to know about managing finances, staff recruitment, agreeing project priorities etc.
Both groups benefit from having a reasonable understanding/empathy of each other's work.
If criticism is to be levelled - often managers are seen as senior, and better rewarded. This encourages techies to seek management roles despite a personality unsuited to the task. There is a strong argument that some top specialists should be better rewarded than their managers.
Last edited by: Terry on Sat 17 Sep 22 at 22:29
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Managers get promoted to their level of incompetence.
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Excellent. I shall use that line.
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>> Managers get promoted to their level of incompetence.
>>
The Peter Principle.
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"Managers get promoted to their level of incompetence."
And above
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I’m fairly sure that that applies to most industries Terry.
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Was on the phone to a colleague earlier. He's in despair.
One of the tasks we need to do is work out a company's cashflow. Can it support the loan and we put certain known and guestimated pressures on the business, e.g. change in turnover etc.
We have used Excel to do most of the number crunching for the cashflow. It takes under an hour to enter the figures and then think about the outcome before recording the findings on to the main system and moving on to the next part of the underwriting assessment.
Our new director, walked past the colleague this morning and asked what Excel was being used for. (This is the one who wants more and more work done.)
He does not like Excel. Said he does not like what he does not understand and has announced that we are not to use Excel and to enter the figures and calculations manually in to the main system.
Colleague has spent 6 hours entering the data to the system and is not even half way through.
I glanced at our workflow and we have dozens of possible Excel workbooks for each case. It's going to be fun if we need to get rid of them!
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>> He does not like Excel. Said he does not like what he does not understand
>> and has announced that we are not to use Excel and to enter the figures
>> and calculations manually in to the main system.
As Mark has often said, managers only manage the smallest thing they understand.
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He does not like Excel. Said he does not like what he does not understand
>> and has announced that we are not to use Excel and to enter the figures
>> and calculations manually in to the main system.
I always find it amusing when people like that end up in senior positions.
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>>
>> Our new director, walked past the colleague this morning and asked what Excel was being
>> used for. (This is the one who wants more and more work done.)
>>
>> He does not like Excel. Said he does not like what he does not understand
>> and has announced that we are not to use Excel and to enter the figures
>> and calculations manually in to the main system.
>>
>> Colleague has spent 6 hours entering the data to the system and is not even
>> half way through.
>>
...given your line of business, I find a lack of basic understanding of Excel hard to believe. Sounds more like a senior manager trying to ensure underperformance as a preparation for getting rid of someone....
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You could start planning how to make it a whistleblower issue, with a future claim to unfair dismissal, if you fancy a gamble.
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TBF, by using and creating local spreadsheets, you could be creating uncontrolled data.
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People who get in charge of this sort of thing reason that there might be errors, that the spreadsheet owner might be the only one who understands it, etc., plus what Zero says.
And with things like company accounts, I assume they don't even look at them until they are in a standard format, or "carded" as we used to call it when we did it manually.
Of course you could be very organised and sensibly have put your procedures into a spreadsheet to make it quicker.
Banks were always like this with systems. The one in use could be 30 years old and out of date but until its replacement makes it to the top of the development schedule, which might be never, you'll still have to use it.
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>> TBF, by using and creating local spreadsheets, you could be creating uncontrolled data.
>>
Yes, but it's all held on searchable drives with the spreadsheet paths saved in to the main application for each customer so there is an audit trail. Each version of the workbook is saved.
A few years ago someone looked at a project to build a system that did all the work that the spreadsheets did (and they were more limited at the time). The costs was tens of millions.
We do use database driven CRM tools that can be customised for certain tasks but they are slow and clunky as well.
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 28 Oct 22 at 19:52
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> A few years ago someone looked at a project to build a system that did
>> all the work that the spreadsheets did (and they were more limited at the time).
>> The costs was tens of millions.
I think you mentioned you worked for a bank, surely those sorts of sums are neither here nor there.
I don't know what it is that you do nor clued up on IT, but the process sounds quite clunky.
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Formal research into errors on spreadsheets has estimated that between 12% and 90% of spreadsheets have embedded errors. I suspect the variation is partly driven by greater complexity = more errors.
The boss may therefore have some justification for his distrust of "home-made" spreadsheets where the originators may be of varying capability.
Basic +/- percentage variations around a base case in sales, labour costs, timescales, material costs etc are too simplistic. Fundamental review of assumptions surrounding competition, price and demand sensitivity, time to market etc tended to be far more revealing.
Having said all that - Excel is a hugely capable tool for modelling and analysis which I would have thought should be understood by any competent manager. Using inflexible standardised systems also has weaknesses - in particular a limited ability to adapt them for different circumstances.
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>..between 12% and 90% of spreadsheets have embedded errors...
I guess they used a spreadsheet for their "Formal Research"
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>>
>> I don't know what it is that you do nor clued up on IT, but
>> the process sounds quite clunky.
>>
Specialist underwriting for business loans.
Bank IT is dreadful. At every bank I have worked at it's the same. They don't want to change something that works because the systems are so interconnected a small change in one system can have significant impacts down the line.
A specific example. It's "cheaper" to give users a many hundreds of pounds version of Adobe (Full) than a free converter because the testing has been done on the paid for version.
Remember the problems TSB had a couple of years back when they changed systems!
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>> Bank IT is dreadful. At every bank I have worked at it's the same. They
>> don't want to change something that works because the systems are so interconnected a small
>> change in one system can have significant impacts down the line.
At the heart of most of the big banks is an IBM mainframe, with lumps of software in it 30 or 40 years old. Because it just kept humming away, never going wrong (or if it did, fixing itself)* they sacked all those people who knew the internals.
Now they just tack bits on, and its those bits that cock up. TSB thought they could dump the mainframe and move the system onto a new platform. They got burned, big time.
*Mind you it did once for RBOS. They thought they get some numpty in india to fiddle with it, he did, it crashed and they had no skills to fix or recover it.
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All businesses have more demands on limited resources than can be delivered. Management, including banks, have to make choices:
- fix that which is failing now, or
- focus on strategic goals which will ensure long term success
Every organisation I have seen does the former at the expense of the latter - "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" and "there is no long term if we don't get through today".
Most complex organisations have legacy systems - software with which no remaining staff members are familiar, and hardware which can only be found s/h on Ebay.
The last time many organisations looked carefully at legacy systems and tried to address any problems was Y2K (for those that remember).
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Bricks and Mortar me Terry. I thought Legacy was a Subaru offering..........
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>>Limited resources...
Reminds me of a time when I worked for one of the big 4 who outsourced our departments entire operations centre for the specialist lending department to Mumbai. 350 staff who spent all day processing customer information and dealing with queries, exclusively for business customers paying a premium for the service.
The subcontractor in India promised the world, sent people over from India to examine the processes and systems work out what data links would be needed etc.
When the carefully planned switch over day happened it all fell over. For the UK customers nothing had changed. They logged on to the system, entered their updates etc. Except rather than going to a couple of UK based mini computers (DECs I recall) for processing then authorisation by the 350 strong team, the messages went to India.
The Indian team had about 20 staff and one, yes, one, fax machine on an analogue line which received all of the processing messages from the UK customers and which had to be re-input manually. One paper jam and it was all over.
The Fidiot who signed off on this got a handsome promotion I recall!
Nearly 20 years later and lots of money spent on it, processing and customer services is still in India. The bank doesn't lead the field in that product any more though.
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Fidiot. I love it. I shall use it.
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>The last time.. was Y2K
The next one is Jan 2038 when code compiled for 32-bit *nix-like operating systems will see time go backwards*. I know that one large food processing company was still using a 1990s 486 Xenix system for their carcase scales about five years ago.
* time_t (seconds since the Unix epoch) was defined as a signed 32-bit integer and will flip negative.
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>>they had no skills to fix or recover it.
They knew who had the skills as they made them redundant 10-15 years before.
They got a number of them back for a few months and IBM systems people at megabucks per day.
The trouble is that in a few years time the "IT Dad's Army" that saved the day will be unlikely to be there - some will be pushing up the daisies and others will too many years away from the work that they are no longer "on the ball".
RBS were all about saving money - mainframes running in Edinburgh and outsourced staff in India.
Experienced staff £60K plus in Edinburgh, at least double that in London and paying staff around £5K in India.
Some people returned to help out, many refused as they were bitter at being made redundant - they told RBS the IT trouble could leave the RBS in danger of going to the wall!
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>>At the heart of most of the big banks is an IBM mainframe
I am reminded of your good post from 2011 here....www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=8483&m=187294&v=e
It is possible to change from Mainframes to server based systems. In the early '00s WANG told us that they would stop support of the computer (mini probably) our division used.
We had to find an alternative quickly.
The project team decided to buy in expertise from the USA to re-write the code line by line with no new functionality. They updated the system overnight in the States and we tested it in the day.
There must have been 10 person years coding and 10 person years testing. There was some key capture testing as well, key presses from the old system were fed in to the new system and the results were always the same (save for differences in the way decimal place rounding occurs on currencies).
The new system worked well for 17 years when it was changed to an "off the shelf" package written by a specialist industry software provider who wraps it in the banks' logos and will even host it if the bank wants. We use their product and it is good. The downside is that there is no differentiation between banks services, log on to ours and save for our branding, it looks and works exactly the same as another bank that uses the same software and it's extremely difficult to get any customisation done.
There used to be 3 such companies for our small sector but sadly since 2004 there are now there are only 2.
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As a member of the public, I don't want different company web sites to be different - I want them to so closely resemble one another that I can intuitively and quickly access, understand and use any of them.
For banking my main concern is that they are secure. I am very happy that banks send SMS codes to validate logon and transactions, I am delighted when they challenge an anomalous payment.
In most industries software evolves - I don't really suppose banks are much different from other types of endeavour. Functionality once innovative becomes commonplace. Ultimately a small handful of companies dominate - they have the best solutions, best prices, best sales team.
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>> As a member of the public, I don't want different company web sites to be
>> different - I want them to so closely resemble one another that I can intuitively
>> and quickly access, understand and use any of them.
>>
Thing is, when there are only one or two suppliers of the software and they won’t customise it in any real way, there is the risk that innovation will be stifled and the product becomes yet another commodity with a race to the lowest prices because that’s the only differentiation. It’s great short term, but not at all good medium to long term.
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I agree there is a big risk that a dominant monopoly suppliers may abuse the market. To a large extent this may be true of, say, Microsoft, Apple, Ebay in their particular fields.
But describing something as a "commodity" suggests that it delivers all (or most) that users aspire to and are unable to identify possible improvements. At that stage price, availability, and reliability are all that is required.
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>> But describing something as a "commodity" suggests that it delivers all (or most) that users
>> aspire to and are unable to identify possible improvements. At that stage price, availability, and
>> reliability are all that is required.
Almost any commodity can be de-commodified. In marketing speak it is "adding value". The added value is the bit you can mark up the most.
Call flour "batter mix" and sell it in 120g packets with a pinch of salt and milk powder and it goes from 40p per kilo to about £3.50.
Or just brand it and advertise it effectively. Works (nearly) every time.
There are very few everyday products that are fully commoditised. I can't think of any. Dishwasher salt?
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Forgive any typos, I’ve had a couple of beers!
The trip to Wales mentioned in the motoring section is off.
The evil director refused to authorise the hotels, saying it’s a day trip!
So 7 hours there, 7 hours back, half day meeting and half day report writing.
X 2 because there were two clients.
I told my boss that I’m not doing it on those terms and he understood.
Director said get someone nearer to go. The nearest person is east of Manchester so it’s still a long day. He had a full diary and wasn’t keen on going anyway. Last I heard this morning he was finding reasons not to go.
Anyway, as I do case work and this was going to be my week, I had cleared my diary so had nothing to do and have taken a few days holiday.
Mrs Z was promised a few nights away so we are up at Stratford Upon Avon to just have a nice few meals out and take in some sights.
The fallout next week will be interesting because it is likely that other banks will go and quote for the business before we can get there.
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>> So 7 hours there, 7 hours back, half day meeting and half day report writing.
>>
>> X 2 because there were two clients.
>>
>> I told my boss that I’m not doing it on those terms and he understood.
Your management need to be aware that if you crash, because they have told you do do unrealistic work/driving combinations they are open to prosecution under the health and safety at work act.
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He wanted you to travel 14 hours instead of paying for a hotel?
Shirley nobody can be that stupid.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 14 Nov 22 at 21:31
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>> He wanted you to travel 14 hours instead of paying for a hotel?
>>
>> Shirley nobody can be that stupid.
>>
They are looking to cut numbers without making redundancies so they make work intolerable.
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...keep every record you can. It will be useful if you (or others) need to claim constructive dismissal. (or more likely, if you feel the need to leave, to use it as a threat of the same to get a decent payoff).
I used to drive long days in my employment, but largely at my volition, and my employers at the time were well aware of the implications of making it compulsory.
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Excel colleague has gone AWOL.
A health check has been done by his line manager and he's ok. Just can't be bothered with it anymore.
A mutual friend colleague has confirmed he's not been fired, offered redundancy or taken a new job, he just can't put up with the xxxx show any more.
It's a shame as he was one of the good ones.
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Friday Meetings - Crap New Targets - martin aston
