#1 Daughter has just [yesterday] announced she's moving from her University in Chile to a University in the UK.
Which caused me to look at current fees and living expenses.
Holy £%$£%$! That's me on bread and gruel for a few years.
And looking for a cheap car for her as well, I guess.
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No UK residence so presumably no Student Finance?
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Indeed. There's a three year residency requirement.
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Ouch, which Uni does she want to go to?
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Then there will be the cost of the wedding soon after!
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>> Then there will be the cost of the wedding soon after!
Oh thanks, cheer me up why don't you.
Given her (currently) intended career, that doesn't seem likely in the near future, but I guess that's not much reassurance.
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Son is at Warwick but doesnt know anybody there other than friends of friends.
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Is this his first year? Or has he just finished a miserable and remote first year and is about to start his second?
#1 obviously knows absolutely no-one at Reading, though she's pretty good at making friends.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 27 Jul 21 at 16:46
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He has just finished his second year (Biology) so at least had most of his first year on a normal basis. This year has been a bit odd as most lectures were on-line, he shared digs in Leamington but spent quite a bit of time at home, much to his disgust !
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Mrs CS did History of Art, half a lifetime ago.
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The current Mrs D'H has a first in Fine Art. Ended up working initially as a catwalk model and then for a bank, after a spell in Sainsburys. Actually, it turns out that she's quite good at the banking thing and has now got a relatively senior position. But the art is mainly on our walls.
Hey ho, maybe she'll be posthumously famous eh?
;-)
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"The current Mrs D'H..."
Love it.
("Current" as opposed to "previous" and/or "future".)
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Shamelessly stolen from the late Terry Wogan I'm afraid James. ( the description not the wife )
;-)
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>That's me on bread and gruel for a few years.
You can forget the gruel matey! The poor kid will need to have an active social life as well.
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...and you might have to ration the bread a bit too.
;-)
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Won't be long before daughter #2 starts getting those sort of ideas too.
Never mind, you can always go back to full time work and I dare say there will be plenty of part time bar work post Covid for a bit of pocket money.
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#2 is 3 years behind and already planning.
Just shoot me now.
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I would seriously advise her to defer for a year, university tuition induction and halls of residence for year 1 is currently a mess
From someone who help finance his niece for 20/21
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We thought we'd got away with it when daughter 1 decided to not go to Uni. Then daughter 2 went, to Birmingham to do nursing. Daughter says "what fun, I'll have some of that" and went to UWE for three years. At least she got a 1st.
Only one wedding so far...
SWMBO had always banked the child allowance and that helped enormously.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 27 Jul 21 at 18:40
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On a strictly return on investment basis then this type of degree is not attractive to say the least. I am tempted to ask why this university? Surely some of the London universities have greater expertise and access to resources, or at least I assume they do? Reading is a pretty good university, not Russell Group but top end red brick, but as far as I know not distinctive in this topic area. Many South American students prefer the US universities, in fact they are pretty rare in the UK in my experience.
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So your point is that she shouldn't do that degree and she shouldn't go to that university?
How well do you believe it will fit in with her chosen career or how better would a different degree have fitted? Do you believe another university would have been better regarded for her career path? In what way?
I mean, that is what will impact it's ROI, is it not? Assuming that is your sole priority for your child's education.
How well do you understand the decision making criteria and factors of South American students? And is that all South Americans as a single group, or is it country dependent?
Is your assumption that both my daughter and I are naïve fools incapable of considering what we do and why?
You are talking about things of which you appear to know little.
And the day that I, or my daughter, choose a path because that is what other people prefer, hell will have already frozen over.
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On the Reading thing, my daughter went there for a visit, around 1999 I suppose, because she was interested in a respected course that they offered at the time - can't remember what it was now, might have been software engineering or robotics, something like that. She ended up elsewhere doing engineering, but Reading was certainly a candidate.
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Lemma has a point. I can certainly see the advantages of a London Uni to a Fine Arts student.
Facilities right on your doorstep and the opportunity to become acquainted with some of the more untraditional aspects and lifestyle of her creative peers. Experiences to broaden the mind and imagination.
It would certainly be much more expensive, particularly the social side of things, but it's only for a few years. Unless she wants to take up some post-grad studies of course.
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>>Lemma has a point
Not in this case, he doesn't.
As an aside, I believe travel between Reading and London is achievable when the need arises.
The cost was not a consideration. The different between a f.lot and a very f.lot is hardly relevant in the case of one's child and their education provided, of course, that one can afford it.
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>The cost was not a consideration.
Well, gruel is definitely out then; and that bread is beginning to look a bit stale.
Ever been dumpster diving?
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>>Ever been dumpster diving?
Sadly, yes.
I assume that cheap gruel is actually water?
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>> >>Ever been dumpster diving?
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>> Sadly, yes.
>>
>> I assume that cheap gruel is actually water?
Oh, I think I have some bad news for you.........
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Ha ha ha. Well, at least I know what I'm looking for.
BTW, that thing arrived with that bloke and he was very pleased. Thanks.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 28 Jul 21 at 15:18
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I would agree with those who suggest London (I realise your decision has already been made) if a student will be looking for part-time work at art fairs, or with galleries (don't necessarily expect it to be paid). I've just recruited somebody about to start an MA in fine art in London for a gallery. Two days a week at their choice. Reading isn't, I don't think, renowned for its choice of galleries... and whilst it might be commutable that doesn't sound much fun for a student - particularly when they're likely not being paid much for the job. And four afternoons a week might suit better than two days, etc. etc., 9am starts after a long commute don't sound like fun for a student.
On the other hand, if she's more into creating art than selling other people's then the above is not relevant at all.
Everybody I know who went to Reading has read - in some form - surveying/property.
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>> I would agree with those who suggest London
Look, I appreciate the thought but I repeat; I am no fool and London would not have delivered a better ROI or in any way been more advantageous for her.
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>> Look, I appreciate the thought but I repeat; I am no fool and London would
>> not have delivered a better ROI or in any way been more advantageous for her.
Some contemporaries of my two ended up at London Unis. Costs of halls or flatshares were mind boggling.
Other than the one at the Royal College of Music and (arguably) the one doing Nursing at Kings I'm not sure what they got that wasn't available in the sticks.
Don't get me started on ROI which the philistines in our government think are the B all and end for the value of higher education.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 28 Jul 21 at 17:11
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>> Other than the one at the Royal College of Music and (arguably) the one doing
>> Nursing at Kings I'm not sure what they got that wasn't available in the sticks.
University of Surrey is highly regarded for Nursing. (well it was when Idris was a lecturer there)
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>> University of Surrey is highly regarded for Nursing. (well it was when Idris was a
>> lecturer there)
Dragging back in my memory I think the student nurse was the girlfriend of the musician, at least when they were in 6th form. That may have been a factor in her choice.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 28 Jul 21 at 17:27
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>> Don't get me started on ROI which the philistines in our government think are the
>> B all and end for the value of higher education.
Right there with you, Bromp. Equally the lack of value they attach to non academic paths.
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>> Look, I appreciate the thought but I repeat; I am no fool and London would
I realise... Just thought it worth pointing out that applicants who had studied in London - or whose parents live in London - had plenty of relevant internships/slave jobs. Those who had neither such benefit have CVs full of working in restaurants and baby-sitting.
It's a whole different world from when we were young.
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It was you that raised the issue of the cost of the degree, not me. I commented, and it is a matter of fact established in a recent report, that such degrees do not usually lead to employment that financially justifies their cost. The UK government is currently considering the funding of such degrees. However this does raise the perennial argument of the value, not cost, of liberal arts studies and their contribution to quality of life and society. ROI is of course not the sole priority for a child’s education, as I implied by the use of the term “on a strictly financial basis” when referencing ROI. However cost certainly seemed an issue for you and I responded accordingly.
I have no belief as to how well this fits your daughter’s career plans, of which I know nothing, and consequently have no thought on university options. However there are well respected institutions in London with strong connections to resources that are more easily accessed than from Reading.
I am a retired university professor and faculty dean and held visiting professorships in both Brazil and Argentina, as well as Europe and Australasia, with academic connections and collaborations in three other South American countries including Chile. I have taught a wide range of students from across South America both there and in the UK as well as recruiting for the various programmes in which I was involved. I have also, as it happens, been a member of the faculty at the University of Reading during my career. So, as you say, I may know little but perhaps I know something.
I do not consider either you or your daughter to be naive, although you do come across as intemperate. I have expressed no preference as to your daughter’s future. I admire young people with their vision and enthusiasm, it has been a sustaining part of my life for many years and continues to be so with my ongoing involvement across the sector. I wish her well and am sorry if my contribution to the debate you started challenged you.
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Challenged me? Hardly.
And if your judgement of a degree course is a fantasy roi based on a case of which you know nothing then I shall give it the weight it so obviously deserves.
Oh, by the way, tl:dr, cba.I trust others enjoyed your CV.
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I have made it clear on two occasions now that ROI issue is a narrow factor for consideration, but it is one that currently exercises the Government and in my experience many parents. More importantly is the issue of post graduation employment. Universities report rates and types of employment together with salary achievement through regular surveys.
I agree I know nothing of the specifics of your daughter’s case other than the details that you choose to submit to this forum, presumably for discussion and in order to gain more information that I see you request.
I only mention my background to consider against your comment that I appear to know little of which I speak. I don’t think it unreasonable to defend my integrity, although I don’t understand your unnecessarily aggressive responses. I do wish your daughter a fulfilling university experience at what will be an exciting and positive time for her.
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"... you do come across as intemperate..." Yup.
"... your unnecessarily aggressive responses..." Oh yeah.
(See also the sarcasm of "I trust others enjoyed your CV.")
Welcome to the world of c4p, where they say: "In this site you will be able to discuss all things motoring that you are passionate about. All we ask is that you act in a respectful and courteous manner. We will act to preserve these values to maintain the quality of information and usefulness of this site."
NoFM can be like this, or he can be respectful, grateful and utterly charming.
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>>or he can be respectful, grateful and utterly charming.
Like any 3 way accumulator, the odds for all of them at once are astronomical.
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But not nil, so you can still dream.
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>> >>or he can be respectful, grateful and utterly charming.
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>> Like any 3 way accumulator, the odds for all of them at once are astronomical.
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>> oh, come on Z, pot kettle surely !
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>> >> >>or he can be respectful, grateful and utterly charming.
>> >>
>> >> Like any 3 way accumulator, the odds for all of them at once are
>> astronomical.
>> >>
>> >> oh, come on Z, pot kettle surely !
CD, I am flattered you put me in the same class as the champion, but really, as he says, I can only dream.......
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At no time have I asked for sensible comment about her choice of course or college, never mind ridiculous , unfounded and irrelevant ROI analysis. Even more pointless given that I am aware of the facts and you are not.
I made no comment on your integrity, I did say that you know little of which you speak, which remains accurate.
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There was a rationale to my comments particularly in view of the large implications and costs involved. As you say you are aware of facts that I am not, the mirror circumstance also applies. However it seems that with your first order thinking we are very unlikely to have a productive exchange. I hope all goes well for your daughter.
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First order thinking? A threatened teacher indeed.
>>we are very unlikely to have a productive exchange
Given your dedication to the discussion of, and passing judgement on, things of which you know so little, I find it surprising that it took you so long to get to that conclusion. I worked it out when you first started typing.
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OK, point made, give it a rest and move on !
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You're quite correct.
Lemma, I apologise. I am finding the idea of my daughter leaving me somewhat stressful and trusting her decisions is an effort for me, I've always lived by my own.
Thus I reacted badly to your comments on her choices of course and university.
Not your fault, mine.
Mark.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 29 Jul 21 at 16:13
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"I apologise."
Good God. The apocalypse is upon us.
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>> "I apologise."
>>
>> Good God. The apocalypse is upon us.
Its fake, he's only done it to ruin my accumulater.
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NoFM2R, the title mentions "Mother distraught" but hasn't been mentioned otherwise - this might be as stressful to the situation as the daughter's decision if Mrs NoFM2R is upset but presumably Mrs NoFM2R will, or has already, come round to Numero Uno's choice (though I would never dare to presume!).
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Judging by the size of my veterinary bill, No1 would do well to follow her mothers career path..
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>> Judging by the size of my veterinary bill, No1 would do well to follow her
>> mothers career path..
>>
Should you need to flog the Beemer in order to settle up, I may be able to help out....
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>> Judging by the size of my veterinary bill, No1 would do well to follow her mothers career path..
You're not wrong. On occasions when our animals have become ill it's been almost financially worthwhile being married.
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Mrs NoFM2R sees as far as "within 50 kilometres" or "not within 50 kilometres". There is no further granularity involved. Thus this is bad.
So she will never be happy with any decision that moves the child halfway around the world. The geography to one side, she is ok for #1 to choose subject and course. A certain amount of that acceptances comes from previous experience of the futility of arguing with #1
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>> Mrs NoFM2R sees as far as "within 50 kilometres" or "not within 50 kilometres". There
>> is no further granularity involved. Thus this is bad.
>>
>> So she will never be happy with any decision that moves the child halfway around
>> the world. The geography to one side, she is ok for #1 to choose subject
>> and course. A certain amount of that acceptances comes from previous experience of the futility
>> of arguing with #1
>>
You lived in the Reading area, didn't you Mark? One would assume you're getting it in the neck for "Putting ideas in the girl's head..."
Or soon will be, anyway ;-)
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>>You lived in the Reading area, didn't you Mark? One would assume you're getting it in the neck for "Putting ideas in the girl's head..."
A *very* long time ago. I did expect some grief, despite the fact that I don't think #1 has ever even been near to Reading, never mind in it, but it hasn't happened to far.
There was a shortlist of three widely spread Universities which I think deflected some targeted thinking.
Though I assure you, she has quite the list of things that have been my fault over the years that we haven't got to yet. I suspect the backlog of so far unpresented recriminations will take years to clear.
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It's strange, despite travelling all over the world with me, Mrs. NoFM never wanted to travel and would have been far happier remaining in the city of her birth for her whole life. She finds foreign lands a good topic of conversation more than an enjoyable or desirable experience.
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Thank you. I appreciate the personal emotions, you are not alone in that.
Last edited by: Lemma on Fri 30 Jul 21 at 17:21
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3 x sons attended Red Brick Universities and did engineering
3 x Daughter in Laws attended Russell Group Universities.
Total earnings of 3 DiLs is around £160-170K per year
Total annual earnings of sons are significant multiples of that figure.
Choosing the right course that interests you is important. Choosing the right subjects that can earn you a good career & income is important to many. On graduation choosing the right industry & employer is important.
Neighbours' kids that did media, business studies, social work, primary teacher etc etc whilst enjoying their young married lives do not seem to have progressed much in the last 20 years - dead man's shoes in many jobs and restricted jobs above "entry level" jobs - 120 teachers in a secondary school and only the head teacher on "good money"
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>> 3 x sons attended Red Brick Universities and did engineering
>> 3 x Daughter in Laws attended Russell Group Universities.
>>
I didn't go to universities so they are something I don't know much about. I'm not quite sure what significance those titles have, is one better than the other, how do the unis get in those groups?
>> Neighbours' kids that did media, business studies, social work, primary teacher etc etc whilst enjoying
>> their young married lives do not seem to have progressed much in the last 20
>> years - dead man's shoes in many jobs and restricted jobs above "entry level" jobs
>> - 120 teachers in a secondary school and only the head teacher on "good money"
>>
I would imagine being in the public sector for a lot them puts a ceiling on earnings, very few (%wise) in the public sector earn 100k+, tiny numbers earn above 200K+.
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Red Brick Universities - Universities founded from the 1950s - early one were often red brick buildings
Russel Group (also known as the Ancient Universities in Scotland) can trace their histories back many centuries - St Andrews was founded1413 - I went to Glasgow University in the 1960s founded c1450
Russel Group are in some eyes the Premier League for research & teaching HOWEVER newer Universities can often see their graduates do really well in certain fields and by no means are they all just student processing/handing out worthless degrees.
The most successful boy I knew at school was streets ahead of everybody else in the school. He did biochemistry and went on to be become the Research Director @ Pfizer US (famous for Viagra & selling Covid vaccine). Unlikely outcome for a boy who lost his dad in a road accident, aged 12, lived in the roughest street on the roughest council estate.
1st in Biochemistry, PhD by 24 is fantastic BUT to get to the top of a drug industry giant, sit on US Federal Drug advisory bodies shows immense drive over some 40+ years.
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>> Red Brick Universities - Universities founded from the 1950s - early one were often red
>> brick buildings
Red Brick Universities in England go back to the Victorian era eg Leeds, Birmingham.
According to Wiki the terms was coined in the forties.
The term would also overlap with Russell Group which extends well beyond the Ancient Universities.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 28 Jul 21 at 09:00
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About 15 years ago a son was involved with engineering recruitment - 10/12 every year - 2.1 or better and they toured certain universities
Heriot-Watt Edinburgh Red brick
Strathclyde Glasgow Red Brick
Manchester - Russell
Cambridge - Russell
Imperial - Russell
Newcastle - Russell
Most graduate entries came from Manchester northwards - the North of Scotland was deemed to be too near the Arctic Circle by southerners.
The son that started there 23 years ago was on £24K+ bonus in 1998!
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Not so.
HW and Strathclyde are not Red Brick.
Manchester and Newcastle are.
wiki2.org/en/Red_brick_university
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It’s hard to generalise. Our 33 year old daughter did a Russell Group journalism degree and is now a freelance video editor earning not a lot but she can only do part time as she has a one year old. Our 31year old son did a red brick business degree and is now doing very well thank you in an SME earning more than I was (albeit eight years ago) at the end of what I thought was a moderately successful career.
Teachers seem to have scope to be year managers, heads of department, assistant this or that. Not knocking them but there are opportunities other than the top job. Not a job I would want to do though.
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>> 3 x sons attended Red Brick Universities and did engineering
>> 3 x Daughter in Laws attended Russell Group Universities.
>>
>> Total earnings of 3 DiLs is around £160-170K per year
>>
>> Total annual earnings of sons are significant multiples of that figure.
How do you know all these figures?
Do they discuss/tell you their earnings?
Mine certainly didn't, nor would I ask them.
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>> How do you know all these figures?
>>
>> Do they discuss/tell you their earnings?
>>
>> Mine certainly didn't, nor would I ask them.
I guess it depends on the family 'vibe'. Very little my two would not disclose and same the other way. Had conversations with both about earnings, tax, payments to Student Finance etc.
While The Lad's G/F was not working I did them a benefit check.
Anyway as he's a Civil Servant and she's NHS and I know their grades pay is effectively public knowledge.
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3 x DiLs - Public sector jobs & pay scales are advertised -so there are no secrets about how much they earn - 2 are/were on roughly £60K and one on £47.5K as she just got the job in April.
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You either fence them in to protect them (or control them) or you equip them to look after themselves and make decisions, which is much kinder, but hard sometimes.
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You're so right. You can't hold them responsible for decisions you made for them.
Two things I go by;
You job is not to prevent them taking risks, it is to help them understand how to do so sensibly.
You cannot tell your children what kind of adult to be, you have to show them.
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Any particular reason she's moving Uni from Chile to Reading?
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Good luck to the youngster!
I did notice that different universities have different "vibes" and Master and Miss Z discounted a few after visiting the campuses on open day. I know that is going to be difficult for your daughter NoFM2R, but we found it invaluable.
We also had a few emergency trips to uni in the middle of the night because of incidents in 1st year halls including one lad trying to blow up the flat experimenting with a "bong" - the blast was such that windows were blown out and which lead to ours and 200 other 1st years being homeless for 3 weeks. There was also an attempted "suicide" by a deranged student in the flat who painted the flat's walls with their blood! Again, flat evacuated.
(One of the unis was 3 hours away from home and the other was 5 hours.)
Cost wise it's going to be huge. £9k for tuition, £6k for food / going out and £7k for accommodation for 3 years.
Was it worth it? Yes it was and again I wish your daughter the best!
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I found it was actually cheaper for me when son went to University ( Cambridge) than when he was at Grammar School where the fees were a real struggle when I was in the early stages of my career.
It is, however, the best investment I have made , as he gained both an MA and an M Phil in History and he is now is a director of one of the big 4 accountancy companies and lives in a two bed flat in central London bought out of his own very substantial 6 figure salary.
If your daughter wants to go to Reading to study art Mark, that is her decision to make and as a father I am sure you will support her in every way that you can to ensure her happiness. Just bite the bullet and open your wallet....
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>>If your daughter wants to go to Reading to study art Mark, that is her decision to make and as a father I am sure you will support her in every way that you can to ensure her happiness. Just bite the bullet and open your wallet..
Quite, though the bullet is already showing significant bite marks.
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>> We also had a few emergency trips to uni in the middle of the night
>> because of incidents in 1st year halls including one lad trying to blow up the
>> flat experimenting with a "bong" - the blast was such that windows were blown out
>> and which lead to ours and 200 other 1st years being homeless for 3 weeks.
>> There was also an attempted "suicide" by a deranged student in the flat who painted
>> the flat's walls with their blood! Again, flat evacuated.
>>
>> (One of the unis was 3 hours away from home and the other was 5
>> hours.)
I have found this thread fascinating.
The way different families/parents/children behave .
Is it good that some children tell their parents almost everything?
e.g. One of Zippy's threads:-
>> We also had a few emergency trips to uni in the middle of the night
>> because of incidents....
Well, you wouldn't have had the "emergency trips" if the children hadn't picked up the phone and told Mum & Dad, and Mum & Dad wouldn't have had the 3 or 5 hour trip in the middle of the night if they hadn't reacted? Supposing you had said "well, I hope the university sort it out soon" and gone back to sleep, instead of driving for 5 hours through the night? Would that have been the right reaction, or the wrong reaction? Or perhaps if the children hadn't phoned their parents in the middle of the night? Would that have been correct or incorrect?
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>> I have found this thread fascinating.
>>
>> The way different families/parents/children behave .
>>
>> Is it good that some children tell their parents almost everything?
I don't think it is good or bad. Some prefer it one way, some another. Provided both parent and child are comfortable then outside views are of no relevance. Different of course if one or other is not.
As for mine, I have a general idea. #1 sells her art fairly often, so she's always got more money that I expect her to have. She had a fairly serious job for a while and I didn't know her salary, but I know the market so I could make a fair guess. She doesn't tell me how she spends her money, but it's no secret either.
I don't know all her friends, but they're not hidden from me either. When she goes away for the weekend, I know where she's going and usually who with.
We are neither open nor secretive.
What we do have is a no blame, anger or acrimony agreement if one is asking for help. I have never and will never want anything standing in the way of her asking me for help.
>> Well, you wouldn't have had the "emergency trips" if the children hadn't picked up the
>> phone and told Mum & Dad, and Mum & Dad wouldn't have had the 3
>> or 5 hour trip in the middle of the night if they hadn't reacted?
If I was Zippy I would be very pleased that my relationship was such that the Father is their first phone call. That doesn't mean I would leap out of bed on demand, but to be the person who gets a call at time of difficulty or worry is no bad thing.
>> Supposing you had said "well, I hope the university sort it out soon" and gone back
>> to sleep, instead of driving for 5 hours through the night? Would that have been
>> the right reaction, or the wrong reaction?
Who knows? That is situation dependent. I have once had a three hour drive to the coast at 1:00am and I am damned glad I got the call and could help.
I've had other calls along the lines of "I don't need you to do anything but I need your help/suggestions" and I've had "just for you to know" calls.
I wouldn't tolerate the opinion of anybody else on what I did or did not decide to do on receiving those calls.
>>Or perhaps if the children hadn't phoned their parents in the middle of the night?
Which conversation do you prefer to have?
"Why did you call, it was unnecessary and you woke me up?"
"Why didn't you call, I could have helped and saved you all that suffering?"
In the case of the first I would be mildly inconvenienced, in the case of the second I may be devastated.
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>> Good luck to the youngster!
Thank you.
>> I know that is going to be difficult for your daughter NoFM2R, but we found it invaluable.
I agree, it would be. Opportunities have not been nil, but nothing like one would hope. She has a wide circle of friends in various Universities around the world, many in the UK and I know canvassing has taken place.
>> We also had a few emergency trips to uni in the middle of the night......
Certainly a concern. There will be family within reach of her, but mostly I will not be. Though clearly I am going to do much more for British Airways profits in the next few years than I have in the last few. And am I bitter that my frequent flyer status has lapsed on most airlines? Well, yes actually.
>> Cost wise it's going to be huge. £9k for tuition, £6k for food / going
>> out and £7k for accommodation for 3 years.
In the case of a student who has not been resident for three years, you can more than double the costs.
>> Was it worth it?
As parents one does what one can and bites on the cost. Though I shall allow bitterness to creep in from time to time, no doubt.
>>again I wish your daughter the best!
You're very kind, I am sure [hope like hell] it will work out. She is considerably more worldly, more mature and more determined than I was at that age, and I didn't do too badly in the scheme of things. I have faith.
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>>
>> Certainly a concern. There will be family within reach of her, but mostly I will
>> not be. Though clearly I am going to do much more for British Airways profits
>> in the next few years than I have in the last few. And am I
>> bitter that my frequent flyer status has lapsed on most airlines? Well, yes actually.
>>
Thanks to COVID my exec club membership has been renewed at Gold Guest List level for a further year. Those I nominated last year for additional cards have also had them extended. So I get to double dip on nominating this year…. On the off chance that was a serious gripe, drop me an email and you can have one :)
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>> We also had a few emergency trips to uni in the middle of the night
>> because of incidents in 1st year.
We never had a night time emergency visit whilst at Uni though Mrs B did one to The Lad after he graduated. Both suffer from a condition called Keratoconus which affects the eyes. He was in agony after treatment and his G/f wasn't coping.
There was also an occasion in very early 2012 when, having driven to the British Library near Wetherby to sort out some stuff with records from The Quango, I dropped in on Miss B in Sheffield. She'd been back a week or so after Xmas and was in what turned out to be a temporary split from her b/f. Very upset and tearful so we agreed she'd come home with me for Steak & Chips with lashings of red wine and we'd re-stage the start of term after the weekend.
Mobiles and Social Media though mean it's a whole different ball game from when I left home directly for a job in 1978 or my sister to Uni two years later. We had to garner up 10p coins and then queue for a payphone in a draughty hall way. Anybody else hanging around could hear everything. Both would ring from Uni over pretty petty stuff and still do now.
I was able to talk both at different times through the diagnostics of the leccy tripping out. In her case it was a faulty washing machine. The Lad's I think was a female housesharer overloading with a fan heater and hair dryer.
Goodness knows how many times I've used train tracker and live departure/arrival boards to sort out kids stuck on delayed trains. Miss B was only about 13 when she was put on a train to meet her b/f in North Wales (we knew him well - were at his parent's wedding) and we had to re-assure her when everything ground to a halt at Stafford.
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>> Any particular reason she's moving Uni from Chile to Reading?
Well, there's more than one decision in there;
- Moving from Chile
- Moving to the UK
- Choosing Reading
A certain amount of it is the quality of education in Chile, the environment in Chile and the future of both. She wanted to do her University education in the UK for social and family reasons. She really needs to do it in the UK for her future career and it's certainly easier for me to make sure she is supported.
As to why Reading, it is specifically the course she wanted, her [foreign] qualifications are best valued there, it is best placed for the resources she will make use of, there's family nearby and the environment is one she preferred. There were other reasons also.
She has been planning this for some time, it is not a spur of the moment thing.
I didn't waste my or her time by trying to guess how different universities would impact her future earnings, doing spurious ROIs based on incomplete information, or caring about what bricks the university was built of. I guess we have different priorities.
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My younger daughter went to Reading and had a fantastic time. She graduated 15 years ago, but I don't expect the basics have changed, she particularly enjoyed the combination a very pleasant campus with lots of open green spaces and city life right on hand.
She made lots of good friends. Some of the students were from fairly privileged backgrounds, a couple of her friends had been given 2 bank cards - 1 to draw cash out whenever they needed it and the other to charge everything else to!
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Look for the positives. When my eldest went to uni it meant I had 25% better access to the bathroom and when the other went................................
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>> Look for the positives. When my eldest went to uni it meant I had 25%
>> better access to the bathroom and when the other went................................
One of the greatest joys in life is not having to share a bathroom. And I don't.
I will not, however, miss her taste in music though I fear that rather than being granted increased time with the remote control I will merely suffer an increased amount of her sister's equally dire taste.
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>> Look for the positives.......
...and, I think that course is the only 3-year Art course (all the others being 4 - which at the overseas fee level should be rather a relief - I still wince at the 3x£9,000 for my second one)
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Absolutely, though it is rather a lot more than 3x9. In any case, it is what she wishes to do, and her reasons are good ones. Not necessarily what I would have done, but I respect her method and her reasons. Since I am paying, she had to justify her choice to me. No blind cheque book around here.
And her degree subject has absolutely f.all to do with her chosen future career.
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>>
>> And her degree subject has absolutely f.all to do with her chosen future career.
>>
....though things may have changed (since there are now considerably more degree courses that have SFA to do with any future career ;-) ), most of my contemporaries' subsequent careers had little to do with their subject.
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>> Since I am paying,
>> she had to justify her choice to me. No blind cheque book around here.
I am sure if "Dad I want to do a degree in humanities" was said we would have heard the thunderclap of a closing wallet all the way over here.
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>> I am sure if "Dad I want to do a degree in humanities" was said
>> we would have heard the thunderclap of a closing wallet all the way over here.
I am not sure what I would have done. Fortunately the two things I did not have to deal with were a dodgy degree or "I want to go there because my friend / boyfriend goes there".
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My identical twin boys were off to University - one wanted to go to Aberdeen, the other in Edinburgh.
I said that they could do whatever they liked BUT I was not funding 2 different flats.
They agreed Heriot Watt, 1 x accountancy, 1 x engineering. The accountancy fell through in 2 weeks, it was boring. Swapped to same as his brother, some lecturers etc did not know there were 2 of them on the course!
Graduated debt free- they worked in supermarkets during term time and had full-time summer jobs. They funded their social life +designer label stuff - I did the heavy lifting i.e. everything else (fee free in 1990s)
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They're lucky to be debt free - I spoke to my eldest a week or so back and I think she still owes £16k student loan and she's been paying it off for probably 10 years. Youngest did nursing and left with a debt but she didn't have teaching costs to pay so is already paid off.
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If there's one "fortunate" thing about this it is that student financing is not available to mine so they will necessarily end up debt free.
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One of my nephews came out of University debt and loan free. He has a job of sorts but is a budding stand up comedian. He is very frugal and minimalist though.
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>> They're lucky to be debt free - I spoke to my eldest a week or
>> so back and I think she still owes £16k student loan and she's been paying
>> it off for probably 10 years.
Is the debt really a worry?
There's next to no way, even if you default, it can all fall due and payable tomorrow like a mortgage or car loan.
My take is that it's just a ridiculously complicated way of administering a Graduate Tax.
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>> Is the debt really a worry?
Kinda sorta.
I don't want either one of them to think that financing is the easy option or that debt can be ignored or trifles with.
Not that I want them scared of credit either, mind you.
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>> I don't want either one of them to think that financing is the easy option
>> or that debt can be ignored or trifles with.
I'd agree wholeheartedly with that.
My comment was specifically about the UK's system for financing University education.
Not a political comment, Labour are complicit too.
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>>My comment was specifically about the UK's system for financing University education.
I got that. And I think it's a s*** system.
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>>My comment was specifically about the UK's system for financing University education.
>>
>> I got that. And I think it's a s*** system.
>>
Funnily enough I met two of our new recruits on Monday. Both in their early 20's, one is an "A" level intern (on minimum wage plus travel allowance in to London), the other is a trainee.
Neither went to uni and are from "working class" back grounds. I asked why they didn't go the uni route, they were certainly bright enough.
The comment from one was that they wanted to, but their parent didn't like debts and had got in to difficulties in the past and didn't want to be lumbered with debt. Of course I understand that student loans aren't like other loans re default etc. but it seems to impact the choices people make.
A couple of percentage points as a graduate tax would be a far better idea.
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> Is the debt really a worry?
>>
>> There's next to no way, even if you default, it can all fall due and
>> payable tomorrow like a mortgage or car loan.
>>
>> My take is that it's just a ridiculously complicated way of administering a Graduate Tax.
>>
>>
I think it is, it was one of the reasons it put me off. Perhaps not the main, but it was there. I'm sure there's others.
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How does it actually work in practice, assuming one is a British student living in the UK with parents who cannot contribute?
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>> How does it actually work in practice, assuming one is a British student living in
>> the UK with parents who cannot contribute?
I'm working on an IIRC basis but:
My two are on different schemes. Daughter started her Bachelor's Degree in 2011, son in 2013. I left the Civil Service in November 2013 which radically reduced my gross income. Mrs B's income also differed radically as she got (exceptionally) a full time teaching contract for 3 months from September 2011 but by 2013 was on day supply.
Both got an automatic loan for tuition fees. The Lad's were £9k pa, Miss B's a bit less. The amount of the maintenance loan depends on parental (or partner's) income. The Lad eventually got the max maintenance loan. Miss B's was reduced considerably based on gross parental income combined of c£80k. We paid her a top up of several hundred pounds monthly as a top up.
We paid The Lad a bit too but that reflected his capacity to pee his money up against a wall.
They're on different repayment schemes.
He's an Executive Officer in the Civil Service on (say) £24k. He doesn't need to pay anything but due to some HMRC/payroll cock up he cannot be arxed to sort he is. Because his partner needed to do a fourth year to get her PGCE (teaching qualification) he was nominally responsible for supporting her.
She's on Grade 5(?) in the NHS and pays a bit, maybe 5% of salary but that will stop in a few weeks when she goes on Maternity Leave.
Both have interest added and both will have it written off eventually.
The biggest issue I think is how opaque the set up is and students who've not the time/knowledge or motivation to check they're paying the right amount and to sort it if it's wrong.
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Accomodation, utilities and tuition fees are what they are.
Bromp, or anybody else for that matter, if you could share your child's budget for food, clothing, stuff and entertainment I would appreciate it very much.
By all means use my email if you prefer.
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My latest figures are a few years out of date, so not of great use, but:
For both my kids (though at significantly different cost given the years between them), I covered:
- Tuition Fees
- Basic accommodation and utility costs (hall first year, out of hall subsequent years)
- A basic living allowance (food, etc, but sans entertainment)
They were expected to cover the rest either by student loan, or by self-funding (part-time/vacation jobs, etc) and could thus flex their own expectations and at their own choice.
Daughter (who is more "entertainment-oriented") ended up with a small(-ish) amount of student debt (at a relatively low rate of interest) and has paid that off with little impact. Son (who is less demanding, and also had a year's placement, fully-funding by his earnings), exited after his degree with no debts.
They're both in well-paid jobs now, and would have been paying off any significant amount of student loan at quite a value (son especially, as the interest rates are not insignificant as of late), so I don't regret ensuring that loans were minimised/non-existent (and consider myself lucky that I was able to do so). Patently, the system encourages those with low-potential future earnings to max their loan however.
Not that the loan situation is relevant to you - but I do think that fully-funding the basics, but encouraging the student to manage the additionals themselves is a good mix.
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>> Accommodation, utilities and tuition fees are what they are.
>>
2017 Southampton. House share. Victorian terrace. Student area (decent area). Rent £1000 a quarter. £100 a quarter for bills kitty. All students so no council tax.
2012/3 Student Halls £450 per month.
Food and going out £500 per month and it was tight. Extra cash sent as required.
Costs of extras covered such as elective in NZ £5000 accommodation + flights plus topping up the Post Office cash card with £500 extra spending money as required allowed her to make the most of the experience.
2018 Norwich Halls £120 per week. 2019+ House share nearer city centre £370 to £420 per month. Bills incl. Again all students so no council tax.
£600 per month spending on food and clothes and gym membership.
Our kids are TU (Sainsburys), Next, Dorothy Perkins, Topshop types for clothing rather than designer stuff and we got them a large bundle of stuff for when they started but new stuff after that was down to them but I did fork out for some branded togs for balls and decent all weather hiking gear, boots and rucksack for the Duke of Edinburgh treks.
Other costs:
Mobile phone contracts - with unlimited minutes. For the elective we got a "3" sim because it allowed unlimited free calls from NZ to the UK for about £15 per month.
4 decent spec laptops (2 kids over 9 years). Got a guaranteed next working day onsite maintenance package with all new laptops after laptop 1 died in the middle of an important essay. Include accidental damage cover (student houses!).
Laser printer and toner - not messing around with clogged inkjets remotely (printing at the Uni was not always practicable). Probably 3 sets of compatible toners for Miss Z. None for Master Z.
Books. On demand. Miss Z was good at using the university library so the odd unavailable book was about £300 over 5 years.
Master Z, had a taste for rare books and one cost £150 alone. Probably £500 over 3 years.
I would always pay train fares to visit home probably 1 a term. £25 from Southampton and £60 from Norwich. Always off peak with a student rail card. Some UK banks give the rail cards free to students on opening a student account.
Insurances - we added cover on our home insurance for their stuff in halls. That might be more difficult from Chile to the UK but be an option for you. I believe www.endsleigh.co.uk/student/student-insurance/ is the place to go.
I think there is a £150 cost per year to use the NHS as an international student. Plus other health / repatriation insurances.
One bicycle £300.
Student starter packs (pots and pans, kitchen utensils, pens, paper etc, duvet, sheets, pillows, towels etc. £150) at the start of year 1.
At the start of each term we would drop them off and that included a trip to the local supermarket on me where enough supplies to last another 3 months seems to have been purchased!
Grecian 2000 for me £500!
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>>Grecian 2000 for me £500!
Grecian 2000 for the OP 50p...
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Would agree with most of the above and looks in line with what No2 is/has paid at Warwick. First year halls tend to be on a sliding scale dependant on room/flat size, en-suite v shared facilities etc. However I'm clearly tight, I send him £120 a month (ish) for food which he says is plenty however going out funds are down to him (that's what holiday jobs are for). He also takes his car so I do help out with Tax/Insurance/Maintenace etc. He hasnt needed a printer and I believe there are on site facilites if needed. A good Laptop has been essential and has survived through Year 2 so far - albeit with a couple of visits to the Dr when it didnt bounce very well !
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>>A good Laptop has been essential and has
>> survived through Year 2 so far - albeit with a couple of visits to the
>> Dr when it didnt bounce very well !
Both ours at least wanted if not needed a Printer - cheapish inkjets did the job.
Daughter took a laptop we'd bought for her in 6th form. It survived through Uni and after Graduation into when she was living with her boyfriend in Plymouth and working. He comes from an Apple household and she acquired a MacBook for her Masters.
The Lad also took one, a PB bought in 6th form. I had to sort it out twice after it caught something on what he admitted was a Porn site. At his request it was replaced with a Sony - I took the PB in p/ex and used it for another few years.
The Sony was nicked from his shared house off Smithdown Rd in Liverpool. A Lenovo bought as a replacement died after not bouncing and cracking the MoBo. Another Lenovo suffered a cracked screen but I think he may still have that.
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It amazes me how careless the younger generations can be with mobile phones, laptops etc etc.
I have had a PC (company owned) since 1984/5 and so far have not dropped a PC or a Laptop/Ipad - that's 37 years! I have a mobile for some 32 years and again no mishaps.
They have all been replaced with another around their 4/5th Birthday
When you buy new tech equipment you are asked about insurance for theft, breakdown. The same with cars - credit /gap insurance, tyre insurance. If you are careful you can "self insure" - put away the £6/£10 per month and if the worst happens or if something major occurs.
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Couldn't agree more and could say much the same with my tech. Mind you if you had dropped your 1984/85 kit it would have probably done you some real damage :-) !
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>>It amazes me how careless the younger generations can be with mobile phones, laptops etc etc.
Not my impression, though it is only an impression. Certainly mine are not. I don't think they've ever broken anything though we have had two phones stolen in the last 10 years ish.
Other than that I have a large drawer full of phones, iPods, iPads, other tablets, laptops, portable DVD players and other portable media players all of which are out of date and of little use, but none of which are broken. All of which should really be thrown away, but I can never quite divorce myself from the idea that they might be useful one day.
Of course we get dodgy batteries, or buttons, or disks, but not actual breakages. I've always thought there's no fault in simply wearing something out.
For me, I've dropped a couple of phones, drowned one and never dropped a laptop.
Thing is though, accidents happen. And accidents particularly happen to portable kit.
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Never damaged a laptop or the screen on a phone but Mrs B dropped her Moto G in the Euston Road and shattered the screen.
I have though lost at least two Nokia and one Sony 'chock block' style phones. Either fell off my belt or mislaid around the office or in the car.
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Some years back I dropped a phone down the loo just after I'd finished my wee. Worked OK once it was dried out!!
And one work laptop - when I pressed the lid shut I didn't realise there was the thick end of a USB cable trapped in it, and I had a perfect silhouette of it in the cracked screen when I opened it.
One daughter is forever breaking screens on phones. I remember replacing an screen on one, only for her to break it again within 24 hours. Clumsy & careless!!
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>> One daughter is forever breaking screens on phones.
One of my niece's is just the same. Never learns to put her bag down on the floor. Just chucks it down, and crunch, there goes another phone screen. She had one of her iPhones mended once, then went into a café after collecting it. Chucked her bag down, and bang goes the screen again, less than 30 mins after having it mended.
Whenever she pops into the phone shop now, they say "the usual, is it?" ;)
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My eldest doesn't worry about the debt, she understands the debt and how it works, but I occasionally feel for her with the amount of her bills on a reasonably modest salary as a single person living in a tiny flat in Crowthorne.
As I've said before she had two spells of unemployment recently but payments are suspended -I expect the interest carries on rolling up though. I think she pays about £150 a month but have no other detail on it.
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Had a look at the annual tuition fees for Edinburgh.
Home students (presume second degrees as first degrees are covered by the Scottish Govt) - £1,820
RUK £9,000
Overseas £22,000-£49,900(medicine clinical years)
Ooyah.
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The circumstances of parents vary - some can afford to leave student debt free, at the other extreme students need loan + part time work as parents are unable (or unwilling) to help.
Personally - I paid for daughter to have a reasonable place to live in a decent part of town. I did not want her searching out the cheapest and possibly unsafe. I also paid her travel costs for whenever she wanted to come home - train as uni did not allow student cars on campus.
The uni fees went onto the loan. She also used the loan for her other costs (food, entertainment etc) on the basis that she needed to be responsible for what she spent, not have a blank cheque from Dad!
As you are not UK resident the student loan issue is somewhat academic. However it is effectively a graduate tax deducted from salary so ex-students are not really even aware it is being repaid.
Many never pay off the loan as they don't earn enough, and it is eventually written off.
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“Ex students not….aware it is being repaid”. Not quite. My kids have the first generation loans and they pay back 9% on any salary over £1657/month. Once you start to be in the lucky position of earning above that level you will be very much aware of the monthly payments if you are on a good salary.
Many of course will not be at that level so for them it’s maybe a case being unaware it’s NOT being repaid?
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How much debt a student has can make a significant difference in the first (and years after) graduation.
The son that went to Aberdeen after graduation was 3 months accommodation from employer foc. Rented with another trainee for 15 months. My son was perplexed that until payday his flatmate had little to spend for a night out or anything other than the essentials - he thought he was "careful with money / mean". My lad was putting cash aside for flat buying the next year.
It turns out he had total debt IIRC around £40+K (1998). I do not know the make up but it was a mixture of student loans (manageable) overdraft, credit card debt, HP on a few items etc etc, The overdraft/CC was the killer as he was on a repayment schedule to clear it and could not use the card)
It was 6-9 months into the 12 month flat share my son realised what the problem was & how fortunate he was.
The boy with all this debt had wealthy parents, the father & mother lived in the Middle East - seconded by the dad's employer in the UK on large construction projects. He said that they took no interest in his "struggles" with his debt as he had not been careful when at Imperial College London. I can see the point of view BUT if any of my 3 had troubles the Bank of M&D would roll up and help (modest gift/grant , clear the debt on high interest CC etc and put in place 0% repayable loan over a few years).
20+ years on the young man did well at work, Chartered Engineer and undoubtedly on "good money" My son mentions him occasionally as they still chat & have friends & colleagues going back the 23 years to the flat share. They now work for different companies and 6,000 miles apart.
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Whilst my experience is out of date (late 90s,- there are several life lessons that can be learnt from it).
Daughter going to uni coincided with 'my election to take the money run' at the age of 48. As I had little income for the next 2 years she qualified for support on payment of fees.
My lump sum allowed the purchase of a 4 bedded house which was then run by daughter - on the basis that she paid the bills and if she needed money she had to collect the rents. Degree obtained, and debt free at 22. Lessons learnt have proved beneficial in her subsequent life and career in property related activities.
I continued to run the student let for a few years and then sold, and replaced it, with a 1 bed 'buy to le't which was geographically more convenient.
OK, maybe I was fortunate with timings ,and not the most tax efficient thing I have done in my life, but will ensure HMRC will gain some benefit in the end!
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Thu 29 Jul 21 at 07:13
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Many never pay off the loan as they don't earn enough, and it is eventually
>> written off.
>>
Having done a quick search, it seems only 20-40% pay off their loan in full.
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If you are expecting that the student is going to be sucessful in life and employment or at least enough to be in a position to pay off the loan, look into the interest rate! Currently running at around 5% - compare that to the cost of extending your mortgage on a fixed rate plan for say 5yrs - you may be able to borrow the money yourself for somewhere less than 2%.
OK so a few assumptions made, but could be a good starting point.
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2p.
Doesn't the student loan vanish when the former student reaches the age of 29, or did I make that up?
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I think you made it up, it's something like 30 years afterwards or 65 years old, I think there's other variations depending on when you took the loan out. But similar still.
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>> I think you made it up, it's something like 30 years afterwards or 65 years
>> old, I think there's other variations depending on when you took the loan out. But
>> similar still.
There have been several variations down the years:
www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/when-your-student-loan-gets-written-off-or-cancelled
There are also different processes for people where income drops. A colleague had one of the very early loans and that seemed to work like a mortgage. Currently it's based on PAYE.
EDIT: Cross post with Zippy.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 29 Jul 21 at 10:35
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>> 2p.
>>
>> Doesn't the student loan vanish when the former student reaches the age of 29, or
>> did I make that up?
>>
Yes you did make that up! :-)
It depends what "plan" you are on.
www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/when-your-student-loan-gets-written-off-or-cancelled
The Beatles clearly knew the answer was "When I'm 65."
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>>Having done a quick search, it seems only 20-40% pay off their loan in full.
Meaning 60-80% have their debts paid out (plus interest at a juicy rate) by HMG and the loans companies get a nice earner without it going through the Govts income/expenditure books a la PFI?
I am unconvinced student loans are in any way whatsoever efficient for either the govt or students and simply make plenty of money for loans companies.
(other than the govt gets some £££ from selling the loans on to private companies)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 29 Jul 21 at 12:19
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Of course we don't know how much the 60-80% pay off, 1% or 99% of their loans?
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Pick a decent course with prospects of making good income over the decades and University fees & loans is a great investment.
I was at University in the 1960s and I am not rich - I am comfortably off having made a good income all my life apart from the odd glitch of a few months.
A younger brother ran an engineering consultancy and is in a different league to me.
An older brother again ran his own business. In 1970 he was making £20K - I was on £1,000 having just graduated a couple of years earlier - his business flourished for 35 years before selling up, OBE & retiring at 60.
Good degree with lifelong "in demand" skills = comfortable life and less risk of unemployment
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A good degree in an ' in demand' field is a good starting point, but the acquisition of transferable skills is what will keep you going to the end.
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Agreed.
As an employer I was looking for candidates with a degree which was proving something relevant to the job. Not necessarily the same subject, but an ability to dedicate oneself to learning something difficult over a sizeable period of time and to fulfil commitments.
Obviously some jobs require a specific subject area, though many do not. Those that do are also those most likely to care at which university the degree was earned. Most of the areas I have been involved in do not require a specific subject, though obviously some are regarded as more useful and relevant than others.
Often a degree will get you an interview. Sometimes it will get you a job. From then on in it is you and your skills which will help you progress, not the degree.
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>>Often a degree will get you an interview. Sometimes it will get you a job. From then on in it is you and your skills which will help you progress, not the degree.
Pretty much the case with Higher/O/A levels used as a filter for interviews to get the degree in the first place.
Always gong to miss some diamonds in the sand but interviewing everyone when there are 20 applications for each available spot is not feasible
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We should surely, as a country and society, finance education by needs and requirements
Medical based degrees, should be financed (and don't get me going that nurses are expected to pay 120 quid a year for the privilege of being allowed to work)
Engineering, Science, and other infrastructure type degrees should be financed
Strategic longer term country imperatives should reflect in the financing of some degrees.
The rest, Humantities, Sociology, theology etc etc should be fully paid by the student, backed up by private bursary/sponsorship if required.
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In principle I fully agree.
But were you listening to Prof Brian Cox this morning on R4 about the decision of the Govt to increase the rent on Burlington House by 3000%. He rightly stated that the country is not merely about return on investment.
There is a huge cultural and historial fund of information and knowledge which can also monetaried in a less obvious way but nevertheless is vital to the wellbeing of the country. For that to be accessed we do need students of humanities, etc, otherwise we do become a nation of robots or more likely the Chinese.
There are some subjects that you do shake your head at (I remember one girl at University doing American Studies. It seemed to include mainly reading sex and shopping novels by trashy US authors andhaving no lectures to attend) but others such as Art History are useful in that the wealth of overseas investors can be channelled to the UK if there are enough knowledgeable people to extract that money from them. Duchess of Cambridge is doing that very well!
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>> But were you listening to Prof Brian Cox this morning on R4 about the decision
>> of the Govt to increase the rent on Burlington House by 3000%. He rightly stated
>> that the country is not merely about return on investment.
>>
I not sure if I am quibbling, but the rent HAS already been increased by 3,000% over the past ten years. But other than that % given, I haven't seen any other figures.
tinyurl.com/yxzh8zr4
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Bombshell dropped, the Mother distraught - Bromptonaut
