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Ongoing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 16 Jun 21 at 11:57
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Long set of tweets from him, seems unimpressed with the Govt.
A few apparent truths and non-surprises in it.
Who to believe?
mobile.twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1394245014440529921
and, just for Sunday reading, a couple more longish tweets suggesting cover-ups and concerns
mobile.twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1396244823728926721
mobile.twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1396384587551580161
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 23 May 21 at 11:44
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I love the fact that all this "bad stuff" happened while he was chief advisor, or all the stuff he had put in place before is departure. All he has left now as a career is mud slinging.
What an odious fellow he is, he belongs in my dogs poo bag. Certainly wouldn't step on him lest I soil my soul (see what I did there?)
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I agree with Zero (shock horror) regarding Cummings.
But if he's got a bagful or two of poo to pour over Johnson and his lack lustre crew then I'll cut him some slack.
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>> I agree with Zero (shock horror) regarding Cummings.
>>
>> But if he's got a bagful or two of poo to pour over Johnson and
>> his lack lustre crew then I'll cut him some slack.
But you would prefer it to come from an untarnished source. As it is, its dismissed as spiteful ramblings of a brat.
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>> But you would prefer it to come from an untarnished source. As it is, its
>> dismissed as spiteful ramblings of a brat.
Absolutely, his word alone is devalued currency. However if he's got a catalogue of corroborative documents, whatsapp messages etc then his value increases.
If government by WhatsApp bites their bums hard then maybe they'll be more likely do business through proper channels in future.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 23 May 21 at 14:09
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>>mobile.twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1396244823728926721
>>mobile.twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1396384587551580161
Seems like some are being to fear and prevent the end of their 15 minutes.
As for Cummings, whilst I am tempted not to believe a word the man says, one has to think there is at least some truth in his mud flinging.
As others have said, it really needs someone with more credibility to pop up.
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On the subject of the comments on vaccines against variants they are playing the normal sensationalist panic game...
It is accurate to say that Pfizer is 93%88% and AZ 66%/60% against the Kent & Indian variants INSOFAR AS PREVENTING IT ENTIRELY IS CONCERNED. And it is also suggested that the AZ vaccine had not reached maximum effectiveness at that point since it is slower than Pfizer.
In truth the stat that really matters is their effectiveness at preventing SERIOUS instances. Then they both perform higher, much higher in the case of AZ and those figures should be confirmed/known soon.
It really is people who have been loving their names int he papers for 15 months now worried that they will fade back into obscurity.
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>> It is accurate to say that Pfizer is 93%88% and AZ 66%/60% against the Kent
>> & Indian variants INSOFAR AS PREVENTING IT ENTIRELY IS CONCERNED. And it is also suggested
>> that the AZ vaccine had not reached maximum effectiveness at that point since it is
>> slower than Pfizer.
Is there a source for the capitalised bit?
I don't doubt the veracity of what you say but the question of what does 60% effective re AZ/India Variant actually mean came up another discussion outside this forum.
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Is there a source for the capitalised bit?
>>
>> I don't doubt the veracity of what you say but the question of what does
>> 60% effective re AZ/India Variant actually mean came up another discussion outside this forum.
>>
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57214596
The Pfizer vaccine was found to be 88% effective at stopping symptomatic disease from the Indian variant two weeks after the second dose, compared with 93% effectiveness against the Kent variant.
The AstraZeneca jab was 60% effective against the Indian variant, compared with 66% against the Kent variant.
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Standard measure of vaccine is efficacy, the rate at which it prevents infection cf. unvaccinated.
What matters to most of us more is the extent to which it reduces serious outcomes, especially deaths.
Probably clearer to use the noun form, efficacy vs. effectiveness, the latter AIUI being more about the burden of disease e.g treatment requirements and deaths.
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>>INSOFAR AS PREVENTING IT ENTIRELY IS CONCERNED
>>effective at stopping symptomatic disease
Bromp, did the BBC link from Sooty do it for you or do you want me to dig out more?
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What if people who don't take this experiment are perfectly fine and their own immunes system is coping with any virus?
What is means Brompt that we have all been had big time including myself.
Fear is the key here.People walking about with facemask in the fresh air.
Children in school wearing the muzzles on their faces.Never mind we find out in due course. what has really gone on here.
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>>What is means Brompt that we have all been had big time including myself.
It seems unlikely doesn't it?
We have been given numbers for vaccine efficacy and overall effectiveness in reducing hospitalisations and deaths which Witty and Van Tam, for example, have owned. Consider the number of people who would have to know, and keep quiet, if the numbers had been made up.
Similar reasoning can be applied to the numbers treated in hospitals, deaths, and so on.
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"What if people who don't take this experiment are perfectly fine and their own immunes system is coping with any virus?"
People who are apparently perfectly fine and who don't have any symptoms can pass it on.
If you really believe there is some kind of conspiracy to make people wear masks unnecessarily you're a fool.
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Do you really not understand what has "gone on here" and why people are wearing masks smurf?
If not, I'm sure this is not the place to be looking for the answers.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 25 May 21 at 18:46
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>>Do you really not understand what has "gone on here"
>>I'm sure this is not the place to be looking for the answers.
Indeed not.
.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 25 May 21 at 19:13
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imgur.com/ezMfur7
Some of the notable effluent which flows from Smurf's mouth......
I won't be taken a vaccine and don't wear a muzzle.Which is neither use nor ornament.
Walking about to today small children with nappies on their faces it is scary.
I can only hope that people start to wake up what is going on in our soceity.If not we be wearing muzzles
I got caught up in so much misinformation and I admit went in the wrong direction.
We both had our vaccine on Saturday.
What is means Brompt that we have all been had big time including myself.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 25 May 21 at 19:14
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I quite understand you removing stuff you find offensive.
I find talk of face nappies, conspiracies, muzzles, ridiculous allegations and other disinformation quite offensive.
Why are you not removing that crap which is both offensive and *harmful*?
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He is entitled to an opinion, just as you are entitled to disagree with it.
The bits of your posts which I removed broke the swear filter.
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>>He is entitled to an opinion, just as you are entitled to disagree with it.
And my opinion is that he is dangerously ignorant, spreading fantasy conspiracy theories which could be potentially absorbed by the unwary, no doubt exactly the way that he was originally recruited.
Perhaps if people had stood up and called these things out beforehand, then he too could have been saved from his own stupidity and ignorance.
The Mods may like to think a bit more about that before defending his right to an opinion. You may also care to research the meaning of free speech as well. It doesn't mean what you think. Essentially you are wrong, he is not *entitled* to his opinion, though you may choose to allow it, however potentially damaging it is.
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Mark. You shouldn't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience.
:>)
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>> Mark. You shouldn't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat
>> you with their experience.
I know, I know, but they deserve a bit of blow back.
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>>What is means Brompt that we have all been had big time including myself.
You are not intelligent enough to work out what is and is not true. Look at the uneducated unintelligent tripe that comes out of your mouth about vaccines. You were convinced that they were another part of the conspiracy and doing your best to convince others not to take it, until you and your wife were offered it and then you changed your mind.
You are an example of the very worst of our society, too stupid and too uneducated to be able to be trusted information, and too thick to be able to make your own decisions.
You are a truly awful human being and I truly hope that one day you find out just how serious COVID-19 can be - the hard way.
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<1>"Tata Steel has said it will compensate the families of its workers in India that die of Covid-19.
The firm said it will pay deceased employees' salaries, housing and medical benefits until what would have been their retirement at the age of 60.
It also pledged to cover the education costs of the children of dead frontline workers until they graduate."
www.bbc.com/news/business-57236708
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Had my second jab yesterday. Astra Zenica. No side effects or arm swelling. After the first jab I felt like I had the flu.
Compared to what could have been the virus (ebola or similar) we have been lucky in relative terms.
I wonder if the Smurfs of this world would be knocking OAPs out of the way to get their vaccines if people were dropping dead in the streets or the hospitals were truly overwhelmed.
Idiots, being egged on by people with an unknown agenda.
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Oh Smurf stopped objecting to the vaccine conspiracy long enough to get vaccinated. And then went back to it. He doesn't let spreading conspiracies to all and sundry get in the way of protecting his own a***.
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>> Oh Smurf
I still think he's Fluffy's blue sibling....
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I'm not sure that many will have sufficient interest, but it is quite good.
International Monetary Fund: A Proposal to End the COVID-19 Pandemic
www.imf.org/en/Publications/Staff-Discussion-Notes/Issues/2021/05/19/A-Proposal-to-End-the-COVID-19-Pandemic-460263
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I read somewhere that the Indian strain has a longer period between when you catch it and symptoms developing, which gives it more time to replicate before you think you might have it (and take a test).
Seemed plausible to me. But a bit worrying because it is being very cunning.
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Smokie, with no offence, I think you worry too much and you look for the "gotcha" all the time.
I don't agree with fatalism, but I think there is room for a calmer philosophy.
When you're considering a new virus working it's way through 7.6 billion people there's always going to be outliers.
Don't forget, out of 7,674,000,000 people 3,519,085 have died. 0.046% I think. Utterly insignificant to the planet, though clearly a bit more significant if you're one of them. The relevant danger has always been our health system capacity, not coronavirus deaths.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-57224635
Interesting article about oz staying closed for another year.
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Despite having some of the toughest entry restrictions in the world:
- the Indian variant has arrived in Australia
- state of Victoria now going into lockdown
- vaccine rollout ~10%
Evidence that closing borders to international travel and imposing quarantine does not insulate countries from the virus. It will only slow down its arrival, and with a low number of cases in country allow effective track and trace.
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Hate to say this but it looks like things are heading towards some kind of wave hitting...
We have just had to change our ITU from 'green' to Covid and after having only a handful of cv19 cases in the Trust we have now gone to around 30.
June 21st looks dodgy to me...
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>>we have now gone to around 30
Any feeling for age group or vaccination status?
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>> Seemed plausible to me. But a bit worrying because it is being very cunning.
A virus cant be cunning, that requires conscious thought.
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Sheesh... what with Mark picking me up on the first half of that sentence, and you on the second, when the meaning was clear even if the words were sloppy, I wish I'd not bothered with it.
Whatever, it seems the medical and scientific world sees the Indian variant it as a cause for some concern even if you two don't.
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Depends on which bit of the medical and scientific world is talking, some are concerned some aren't. I don't think there is a consensus.
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I know you are probably trying to wind me up.
How about the World Health Organisation who have it listed as a variant of concern.
www.who.int/en/activities/tracking-SARS-CoV-2-variants/
Or Public Health England's Risk assessment for the Indian variant.
tinyurl.com/9b48543t
the Guardian
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/24/will-the-india-variant-stop-england-ending-lockdown
or even the good old currant bun
www.thesun.co.uk/news/15136726/highly-infectious-indian-covid-variant-spreading-rapidly-america/
Feels to me like there is a consensus that it is a variant of concern...
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 2 Jun 21 at 18:49
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No I'm not trying to wind anyone up.
The BBC had various experts some concerned, others not.
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The WHO's position is that unless you *know* a variant is definitely not of concern then it is.
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Not very clear, sorry. My point is that the WHO want absolute certainty before declassifying it. But many others believe it is not of concern.
My previous point, and this one, is that whilst I understand the WHO approach I think calm and restraint along with the awareness that just because you cannot prove that is not dangerous does not mean that it is.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 2 Jun 21 at 19:52
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>> I know you are probably trying to wind me up.
Working better than I thought.
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>>I know you are probably trying to wind me up.
He better not be, I don't job share with anybody.
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I'm in a high risk area, where, according to tonight's 10-o-clock news, all adults are being encouraged to be vaccinated.
There's nothing on any news site showing local dignitaries or the 'most vulnerable' groups having the vaccine, including our MP.
Little wonder then it's running unchecked.
You'd think they would have pictures everywhere, pour encourager les autres. I'm sure you don't need reminding about what happened to admiral Bing!
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Bit surprised to receive an email this afternoon saying we are going to be surge tested over the next 2 weeks - a smallish area of Wokingham is targetted as "a small number of cases of the Covid-19 Delta variant that was first found in India in Wokingham Borough, that cannot be traced back to international travel."
I'm absolutely fine with it - we've already been doing the LFT tests regularly as requested by the Govt, and been vaccinated - but it doesn't really fit in with the types of places where they have said it is appearing.
Apparently the schools issued a letter this morning too.
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>> Bit surprised to receive an email this afternoon saying we are going to be surge
>> tested over the next 2 weeks -
Blimey, I am at a dog show in Bracknell this weekend. I'll put on my NBC suit. I always knew it was a rough area.
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The things you come across on Twitter...
I know not everyone has Twitter, and not everyone with Twitter will be interested but some of the science that's going on around Covid is, to me, astonishing.
This thread has some great graphics and easy-to-understand narrative about how the virus infects cells, and includes a conclusion about the kind of vaccine required.
twitter.com/sigallab/status/1400132624631439361
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Our local surgery has announced they will cease vaccination from the end of June. They say they have met the original priority cohorts and are exhausted. They also say the Pfizer jab which is being used for younger patients needs everyone to wait 15 minutes so it’s more onerous on them.
We live in a rural market town with very poor public transport to the NHS hub alternatives. Not good news for the younger population.
Last edited by: martin aston on Fri 4 Jun 21 at 12:33
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>> Our local surgery has announced they will cease vaccination from the end of June. They
>> say they have met the original priority cohorts and are exhausted. They also say the
>> Pfizer jab which is being used for younger patients needs everyone to wait 15 minutes
>> so it’s more onerous on them.
>>
>> We live in a rural market town with very poor public transport to the NHS
>> hub alternatives. Not good news for the younger population.
>>
How do they normally get about? Can't any get a lift?
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>> Our local surgery has announced they will cease vaccination from the end of June. They
>> say they have met the original priority cohorts and are exhausted. They also say the
>> Pfizer jab which is being used for younger patients needs everyone to wait 15 minutes
>> so it’s more onerous on them.
>>
>> We live in a rural market town with very poor public transport to the NHS
>> hub alternatives. Not good news for the younger population.
As well as exhaustion they're probably in a cleft stick with backlogs of routine consultations.
Is it possible they could offer an exceptions service for those in the younger cohort who cannot access a hub?
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I'm not sure this isn't happening in quite a few places. Our surgery were really active in the early days but became less and less so as time went on - by the time they reached 65 year olds they were only doing vulnerable essential whatever and people had to go to Marlow, Reading, about 8 miles away.
One would have thought if the motivation were there then they would have managed. Parents, siblings, friends, relatives, bus services, Uber - there's plenty of options for most. Can't have everything brought to your door y'know! :-)
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It’s only just been announced so a local alternative might be offered but it’s hard to see what this could be. There are no other doctors for some miles and none within an hour on public transport routes. The pharmacy is tiny with no space for vaccinating in bulk.
The nearest hubs are at best an hour away by bus with a couple of hours between buses so you are looking at taking a half day off work for a 15 minute appointment We have many people on minimum wage jobs without cars and for whom a half day is without pay. Of course people will try to get lifts but it will be shame for rural communities and younger people if this is part of a pattern and jabs are not to be available locally.
No doubt determined people will get the jab but for anyone looking for an excuse not to bother it’s a convenient one.
On the plus side we are a good community and I am hopeful that something will be organised. We have had fantastic volunteers for marshalling etc but if the core professionals are not available we are stuck.
PS Uber is brilliant but doesn’t work out in the sticks!
Last edited by: martin aston on Fri 4 Jun 21 at 13:57
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A couple of local stories:
1. A couple had their holiday cancelled. They'd agreed to rent an accomodation, but because of the town they're from is 'high risk' it was cancelled by the owner.
2. A local ice cream parlour was due to supply a wedding. They were cancelled because of the town they're from.
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I'd think that's fair enough really. I like caution. And anyway the govt has been criticised for not being tough enough soon enough.
My mate has a cottage on the Devon/Cornwall border, mainly for his own use. He was planning on going down early next week. I'm not sure he'd be welcome if they knew he was coming from an area where we are having to have surge testing. I know I wouldn't be happy if I were a local.
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Seems pretty harsh especially no1. Nothing like making people feel like lepers.
Anyway I'm sure they'll keep the cottage owner in mind in the future when being encouraged to spend money in the UK on holiday...
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If people and governments worried a little less about how people might feel this may have been better controlled. I'm sure much of the dithering and delayed decisions about restricting movement has been down to not wanting to upset people.
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I'm sure varying feelings of all manner of subjects played out, we are humans after all not robots.
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This whining and moaning about the portugal change (from hauliers and holiday makers) get no sympathy from me. It was almost predictable, you dont need a fortune cookie to tell you booking foreign places is going to be risky all year. If you do and it goes TU, then TS. you were warned.
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Good friends of mine who,live a few doors away fly out tomorrow....13:45 Ryanair flight from LBA to Alicante. Currently £22.99 one way.
They have a place on the northern Costa B, and own a car out there, not booked a return flight. Older than me , when we spoke today they were tired of putting their life on hold so looking forward to several weeks of hot sun, BBQs, live outside music and they will have a jolly good time.
And yes I’m a bit jealous....rental properties are getting expensive now, as is car hire.
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There are plenty of people feel like that LL, in fact there's plenty of people (including some on this forum) who have been shielding or caring for someone vulnerable for well over a year now, and are managing to get by without breaking the rules.
Luckily most of us are prepared to follow official advice, else we'd be in an even worse mess.
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>> Luckily most of us are prepared to follow official advice, else we'd be in an
>> even worse mess.
>>
Seeing as the majority of us old ‘uns on here are double jabbed, so if we contract Covid the effects should be limited, I don’t blame my friends at all. In fact if the U.K. weather forecast wasn’t reasonable I’d be joining them in a few days.
One of my friends had major heart surgery two years ago...I don’t know if that makes him vulnerable, but he’s a non stop DIYer and constantly pottering. Several weeks in their villa, pool and beach time with an outdoor lifestyle is something I could live with.
I did ask them about the health insurance implications of travelling to Spain...they probably won’t be covered by their annual policy, although they have a current EHIC card. I spent 22 weeks in Spain last year (Jan-March & Oct- Dec) and wasn’t unduly concerned. I’m very philosophical about poo happening.
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I'm surprised you've not gone LL, I thought popping off to Spain would be right up your street. Especially as the weather will be much better than here now.
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As you possibly know I go to Spain primarily for the mountain walking....I’m a member of the CB Mtn Walkers group. The final walks of our Spring Programme were last weekend...that’s it until the first week of October. My other two groups, so I’m normally out 4/5 days a week, have also finished until it cools down.
It’s just too warm inland...love swimming, messing about in kayaks and on a paddle board, ok for a few weeks, but long term, no thanks so not worth the hassle.
Backpacking the Wales CPath beckons, continuing on from the Pembrokeshire CP in 2019. Lovely part of the world, no plan, under canvas, taking each day as it comes. And if the weather deteriorates I come home...several days walking in the rain, sleeping in a tiny Squall 2 tarptent doesn’t float my boat.
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Sounds like you've got it all sorted. I was in due Spain this, but got cancelled :( I was quite looking fwd to it.
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>>Seeing as the majority of us old 'uns on here are double jabbed, so if we contract Covid the effects should be limited, I don't blame my friends at all.
I'm close to someone with lymphoma often referred to as blood cancer or cancer of the immune system. They've been double jabbed, but no-one can tell them how effective it is in their case.
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>> There are plenty of people feel like that LL, in fact there's plenty of people
>> (including some on this forum) who have been shielding or caring for someone vulnerable for
>> well over a year now, and are managing to get by without breaking the rules.
Other than the Foreign Office advice thing then provided they do the proper test/isolate upon return to the UK is their actually an issue here?
Not saying there isn't, it may be just that I'm missing it.
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Legacy Lad and his neighbours individual circumstances allow them to manage travel and their destinations to minimise any risk because they have common sense and will be sensible.
Unfortunately as said before common sense is not necessarily common and all these rules are designed to cater for the lowest common denominator.
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I like to think I have common sense, and Thursday's LFT test (in line with Govt request) showed I was negative, and I haven't been out much, and when I have I've worn a mask and maintained social distancing so unlikely to have caught it anyway, and I don't want to spend my day standing in line waiting for a test so I could skip the surge testing which I've been requested to attend. But I'm trying to do my bit to bring this under control so I won't. Presumably they are gathering info not just about how many are infected etc.
I have a holiday in Portugal booked for later this year but if the guidance is to not go, I won't go anyway, like I didn't in March.
My daughter was due to visit a friend and her godchildren out there, who she hasn't seen for over a year, in the net two weeks but has cancelled because she has common sense.
You can still carry the virus around even though you have been jabbed which is, I think, one reason why they like to deter movement. If planeloads of Spaniards who are fed up with sun and BBQ started arriving here, we'd be calling foul!
Actually, for all I'm saying I am actually open to some limited flexibility.:-) However when you look around now, many many people seem to be thinking it's all over when it looks to me more like we are just on our way into another wave - which I think will bring less deaths, serious illness and thus hospitalisation due the vaccination but the infection numbers could go quite high.
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"A couple of local stories:"
If people realise that they're acceptance is going to be based on where they are coming from on a local level perhaps their own communities may put some pressure on those that seem reluctant to adhere to any of the Covid requirements and the prize is not to be identified as pariahs based on their locations.
Actually take some responsibility for their destiny.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 4 Jun 21 at 20:46
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>> If people realise that they're acceptance is going to be based on where they are
>> coming from on a local level perhaps their own communities may put some pressure on
>> those that seem reluctant
Good idea. Shame the idiots.
I've been pretty philosophical about the restrictions, being retired helps a lot (work and income not affected) and we have also been focused on the consequences of our house fire rather than travelling the world.
But I find I am getting quite fed up with it now - weeks on end without seeing the grandchildren, missing friends and small social get-togethers, while the sands of our lives still run!
May the fleas of a thousand camels permanently infest the armpits of anybody who recklessly prolongs this misery.
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>> But I find I am getting quite fed up with it now - weeks on
>> end without seeing the grandchildren, missing friends and small social get-togethers, while the sands of
>> our lives still run!
You have been able to go to pubs, clubs, restaurants, cafes and coffee bars for several weeks now - first outside and now inside. I have been doing that. Why can't you do that?
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>>1. A couple had their holiday cancelled. They'd agreed to rent an accomodation, but because of the town they're from is 'high risk' it was cancelled by the owner.
What an utterly ridiculous decision. I might have stuck them with an additional £50 cleaning bill or something, but to cancel? I do hope he ends up paying a significant penalty one way or another.
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>> What an utterly ridiculous decision. I might have stuck them with an additional £50 cleaning
>> bill or something, but to cancel?
Requesting a Lateral Flow test 48hours in advance and on day of arrival would be reasonable; for all guests not just those from an area with relatively high infections.
We're currently on the Western Isles, now in Level 0 under the Scottish system. Most of the mainland is in Level 1 except the Central Belt in 2.
The authorities here advise LF tests as above and we complied.
TBH I'd regard an extra cleaning charge as a cheek. It sort of implies the ordinary handover clean isn't adequate.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 5 Jun 21 at 09:07
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I see the Portuguese government isn't very happy about being put on the Amber list, I guess their tourist sector is hurting pretty bad, they seem happy to open their doors to UK tourists.
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Not many European countries are allowing us in - mainly only those which rely heavily on tourism. Certainly France, Germany. Belgium, the Netherlands and the US will not have us. But then - we have them on red too.
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>> Not many European countries are allowing us in
I didn't suggest there were :)
- mainly only those which rely heavily
>> on tourism.
Yes, it's not always an exact science. Some countries have differing priorities that require balancing. Not everyone can do a NZ/Oz and shut up shop.
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>> >> Not many European countries are allowing us in
>>
>>
>> I didn't suggest there were :)
>>
I didn't suggest you did :-)
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France said yesterday that it would let now in people who’d had both vaccinations, and had a negative covid test. I’ll be going later in the summer, all else being equal :)
metro.co.uk/2021/06/04/covid-travel-france-reopens-to-fully-vaccinated-brits-next-week-14714568/
Last edited by: PeterS on Sat 5 Jun 21 at 13:04
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Oh, I hadn't seen that, that's good news for mates who are planning to attend the 24h at Le Mans, which has been pushed back to Aug (but I think not yet confirmed it will be open to spectators).
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Sad to think that only a couple of years ago we drove through France, Germany, Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Austria and Italy on one 2-day journey without let or hindrance. Will we ever be able to do that again even post-Covid?
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>> Sad to think that only a couple of years ago we drove through France, Germany,
>> Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Austria and Italy on one 2-day journey without let or hindrance. Will we
>> ever be able to do that again even post-Covid?
>>
Last year I drove through France, Italy, Austria, Germany, The Netherlands and Belgium without let or hindrance, and that was with COVID, so I wouldn’t worry too much!
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Why is the UK scared of differentiating between the vaccinated and the not?
Why does a vaccinated person need to endure the same restrictions as a non-vaccinated person?
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>> Why is the UK scared of differentiating between the vaccinated and the not?
I suspect the answer, apart from a significant cohort who are still too young to be vaccinated, is that sorting the refusenik sheep from the goats with real problems around vaccination isn't as simple as it looks.
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It is. Vaccinated or not? There you go, done.
I am not talking about whether the lack of vaccination is a refusnik, d*******, or someone who cannot be vaccinated. I am simply talking about vaccinated or not, not assiging a value judgement.
If you are vaccinated you are, and face, a different risk to someone who is not. Irrespective of why you are not vaccinated.
Why is the UK scared of differentiating?
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>> Why is the UK scared of differentiating?
How are you differentiating? Does it involve the provision of goods or services?
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Here, for example, ones ability to move around, to enter places or to be involved in certain activities is different between the vaccinated and the not.
The recent figures show something like 87% of new cases are unvaccinated people and there are no vaccinated people in ICU - suggesting a vastly higher risk.
Since the primary desire is to prevent the health system becoming further overloaded, it is far more significant to restrict the movement of non-vaccinated people.
It is an assessment and management of fact.
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>> Here, for example, ones ability to move around, to enter places or to be involved
>> in certain activities is different between the vaccinated and the not.
I think Sooty has covered the most of it.
As soon as you start to differentiate access to goods and services for people who cannot be jabbed for health reasons you run into problems because of disability discrimination laws. The advice against pregnant women being jabbed now seems to have been revised but that would open a whole can of worms in terms of discrimination too.
The devil is in the detail and the detail is way to complicated to make it worthwhile; game not worth candle.
Chile is, I suspect, a different place with a different history as to what 'authority' can do.
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>>As soon as you start to differentiate access to goods and services for people who cannot be jabbed for health reasons you run into problems because of disability discrimination laws
Which goes to show how absolutely ridiculous those laws are and the level of difficulty they cause..
It's not a value judgement. It is simply a fact. Jabbed or not. The risk is different. The treatment is different.
To insist that they are treated the same way is mindbogglingly moronic.
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>> Which goes to show how absolutely ridiculous those laws are and the level of difficulty
>> they cause..
They're laws that make perfect sense normally .or do you thin possession of female parts makes it OK to treat your wife or daughters (or their disabled friends) differently?
If a national emergency requires laws to be suspended then they can be amended with appropriate legislation.
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WTF have female parts got to do with it? Don't be ridiculous, and why do you keep bringing my wife and daughters into everything? An unhealthy obsession at best.
JAB OR NOT??? IT'S NOT b***** DIFFICULT. IT'S NOT A VALUE JUDGEMENT.
AGAIN...
"It's not a value judgement. It is simply a fact. Jabbed or not. The risk is different. The treatment is different.
To insist that they are treated the same way is mindbogglingly moronic."
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 6 Jun 21 at 21:05
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>> As soon as you start to differentiate access to goods and services for people who
>> cannot be jabbed for health reasons you run into problems because of disability discrimination laws.
But its fair enough to discriminate against those who wont vaccinate....There is no place for the dangerously anti social.
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The reality is that we are not all equal - blind, deaf, disabled etc. There is a very strong argument to ensure those who "cannot" for some good reason are properly supported.
This is absolutely not a reason to reduce the pace of everyone to the slowest.
In respect of vaccination - those who are medically unable should get a "pass" signed off by a doctor and understand how they need to manage their own personal risks.
Thos who are simply too foolish deserve no special consideration.
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And what about the in-betweenies, the 30 year olds still planning their families etc who are somewhat nervous about taking an "unknown" drug which could impact them in some unknown way in the future?
I'm not necessarily sticking up for them but not all anti's are rabid nutters and thereby don't deserve to be written off IMO.
One less-than-funny fact - I was chatting with 4 other couples at the weekend, and between us we don't know anyone, directly or indirectly, who has a serious (been hospitalised) bout of Covid. However the sis of next door's son's wife (!), a 30-something, is suffering with a blood clot. Doesn't mean much I know but makes you think...
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>>I was chatting with 4 other couples at the weekend, and between us we don't know anyone, directly or indirectly, who has a serious (been hospitalised) bout of Covid.
One of my wife's cousins had a bout during the first wave. She is in her 30's and was hospitalized for about a week.
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Oops yes, I came across as a disbeliever in Covid. I absolutely believe in it and find it quite concerning. My point was really just about the fact that you could say there is good reason for someone to be concerned about the vaccine, without them being a fruitcake.
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My 90 year-old sister contracted the Chinese virus last year, and lived to tell the tale.
She was hospitalised, but didn't require a ventilator, fortunately.
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>> My 90 year-old sister contracted the Chinese virus last year,
Our cornish pixie think he is Donald Trump now, why am I not surprised....
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>>Our cornish pixie thinks
Now that seems unlikely. Certainly it would be a first.
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>>I'm not necessarily sticking up for them but not all anti's are rabid nutters and thereby don't deserve to be written off IMO.
Again, not a value judgement. A different risk which needs to be managed differently. Not vaccinated is not vaccinated. It is not the same as vaccinated, whatever the reason.
>>and between us we don't know anyone, directly or indirectly, who has a serious (been hospitalised) bout of Covid.
My doctor died.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 7 Jun 21 at 13:30
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>> And what about the in-betweenies, the 30 year olds still planning their families etc who
>> are somewhat nervous about taking an "unknown" drug which could impact them in some unknown
>> way in the future?
Fine they can refuse, but be refused access to public events and places.
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>> Fine they can refuse, but be refused access to public events and places.
They're thirty somethings for whom the disease itself is likely to be no worse than flu and for whom requiring ICU care is an almost vanishingly small prospect.
Given that restrictions are primarily to prevent ICUs being overloaded what purpose would be served by refusing access?
Genuine question, the vaccinated are not proven to be protected from symptoms and being infected/passing on the virus whilst the immune system gets to grips.
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Somewhere amongst the garbage I read each day there were a number of articles saying the current success against Covid is more down to lockdown than vaccine.
Also I have read that the vaccine was expected/designed to not travel around the body but some pukka looking scientific investigations have found it in organs around the body like the brain and ovaries.
I tend not to read "popular" press, I often don't bother reading stuff (and wouldn't normally repeat it) unless it is from supposedly real scientists, and has a thread of believability (by my standards).
I do end up reading about Covid science quite extensively because I am in a private/restricted group connected with a particular investment, and the clever people there post links of "interest". That's not to say I understand it all.
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>> Somewhere amongst the garbage I read each day there were a number of articles saying
>> the current success against Covid is more down to lockdown than vaccine.
I think the lockdown v vaccine debate is valid. It's only when people start mixing again that it can spread. That was exactly what happened over the summer and autumn last year. Infections led to hospital admissions and ICUs being overwhelmed; the lead time from infections going up to ICU, intubation etc is 3-4 weeks.
The test now is whether the pool of jabbed people ensures that the number sick enough to need hospital admission remains manageable - think a bad year for flu.
Like you I don't read the popular press and where I find stuff reported I tend to look for the source document.
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>> Also I have read that the vaccine was expected/designed to not travel around the body
>> but some pukka looking scientific investigations have found it in organs around the body like
>> the brain and ovaries.
Presume there's more to it, but Shirley if it gets into the bloodstream it will reach those places - I know it's intra-muscular but I'm pretty sure it is intended to get into the circulatory system.
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Yes, more to it as it was taken as a bit of a serious read by those who understood it.
I'll see if I can find it again, thought he search isn't great.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 7 Jun 21 at 19:38
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This doesn't look familiar but maybe it was at the root of the stuff I read. It's apparently
Pfizer document, translated by Google from Japanese.
www.naturalnews.com/files/Pfizer-bio-distribution-confidential-document-translated-to-english.pdf
My recollection is that stuff in the vaccine can somehow attaching itself to those organs which seemed to be undesirable. I'll post more if/when I come across it again.
Most likely to be taken with a pinch of salt, but I've seen a few articles which seem to infer that the vaccines may well well have unexpected side effects, and occasionally there's a hint of a cover-up going on about just what is known, or at best misinformation. (Remember how the clots started as a bit of a rumour which was denied but then more and more cases came forward until connection couldn't really be disputed.)
I try not to be taken in by it, especially if I can't understand it, but when I see the smart people saying something isn't good I tend to take more notice.
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>> (Remember how the clots started as a bit of a rumour
>> which was denied but then more and more cases came forward until connection couldn't really
>> be disputed.)
>>
>>
>>
As I understand it. the incidence of blood clots among those who have had the vaccination is no higher than it is among those who haven't. From the UK govt website -
"Recently there have been reports of an extremely rare but serious condition involving blood clots and unusual bleeding after AstraZeneca (AZ) vaccination. Some people with this condition have suffered life changing effects and some have died. These cases are being carefully reviewed but the risk factors for this condition are not yet clear.
Although this condition remains extremely rare there is a higher risk in people after the first dose of the AZ vaccine. To date and overall, just over 10 people develop this condition for every million doses of AZ vaccine given. This is seen more often in younger people and tends to occur between 4 days and 4 weeks following vaccination.
Similar conditions can also occur naturally, and clotting problems are a common complication of coronavirus (COVID-19) infection. An increased risk has not yet been seen after other COVID-19 vaccines in the UK."
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Yes I think you are right, the numbers are very small, but it did take a while from when the suggestion that the vaccine may be causing clots was aired till it was accepted publicly that it could, getting on for a week IIRC. I know they have to have much more than hearsay before they would acknowledge a link.
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>>that the vaccines may well well have unexpected side effects, and occasionally there's a hint of a cover-up going on
Perhaps they didn't sterilise the microchips properly before hiding them in the vaccine?
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>> (Remember how the clots started as a bit of a rumour which was denied but then more and more cases came forward until connection couldn't really be disputed.)
No, I don't remember that.
I remember them saying that there had been a few blood clots, that it was very low level and in fact lower than could be experienced in normal situations, that there was no evidential link but that they continued to investigate.
I don't remember anybody trying to dispute it, grudgingly admitting it because they couldn't deny it any more, nor do I ever remember it being a rumour.
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>> I don't remember anybody trying to dispute it, grudgingly admitting it because they couldn't deny
>> it any more, nor do I ever remember it being a rumour.
My recollection is that the issue came to light via the UK's Yellow Card system for reporting side effects and similar systems in other countries. Given the very low numbers, new emerging evidence etc, there was inevitably a period where the issue, its significance and the group(s) affected was assessed.
As might be expected different countries, including those in the EU, reacted in their own ways with some more risk averse than others.
No reluctance, no grudging just dealing with emerging science.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57393931
I don't know why people are surprised that things change quickly. I wonder what rock they've been under for the last 18 months or so.
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Same here, they had to look into first. They couldn't give an immediate answer.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 8 Jun 21 at 11:10
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OK, well I don't think I remembering it wrongly but it may well be that it was raised on the group I'm in before it reached the press. Whatever, I'll withdraw the comment and any inference as I'm not trying to be a disruptor.
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>> OK, well I don't think I remembering it wrongly but it may well be that
>> it was raised on the group I'm in before it reached the press. Whatever, I'll
>> withdraw the comment and any inference as I'm not trying to be a disruptor.
It's likely that initial reports were regarded as outliers and the initial response from AZ was to say that it wasn't something that had cropped up in testing. A response along the lines of "we're looking into it" would be reasonable. It may be that process gave the appearance of reluctance to some but I don't think there was denial or anything grudging, just a normal scientific process.
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Why is the UK scared of differentiating?
>>
Scared isn't perhaps the right word and it's as much as differentiating as the methods itself.
Anything that vaguely looks like 'papers please' goes down like a lead balloon.
Of course that's a generalisation, when you say UK it's (obviously) a very wide group of people.
Then of course there's the practicalities, how do you show how has the jab and how hasn't, what about time between jabs or if you've just had one yesterday? Do you end up with all sorts of mini groups?
Then if you did get all that sorted, who would enforce it? The police, not likely.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 5 Jun 21 at 18:33
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Here you get a vaccination certificate when your programme is deemed to be effective. So in my case, Sinovac, that was 2 weeks after my second jab. Number 1 Daughter, Pfizer, was considerably shorter than that.
You then need to carry that certificate. If you don't then it is assumed that you are not vaccinated.
As a vaccinated person I may travel between comunas (boroughs) and regions (counties) without permission.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 5 Jun 21 at 18:36
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Here it's 8 or 12 weeks between jabs. You get a small bit of card, that's basically an appointment reminder card but with the batch numbers on it. Handy to let your GP know if you have had the jab, although it's automatically for some/most (i think?).
But it's nothing official, could no doubt be easily copied and as it's not said to be official then loads have probably binned them anyway.
We've never heard controls between counties, perhaps common in Chile* but unheard of really in the UK, again who would enforce such a thing in the UK. Many other countries are similar.
* I think you mentioned the Military Police are out and about in Chile fairly often. No doubt based on the Gendarmerie, but of course we've nothing like that in the UK.
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The proposition at the start of rollout was it would be unfair to those those who had not been vaccinated to have "vaccine passports".
We are now very close to the stage where all adults who want a vaccine will have had it. The original proposition is now completely ridiculous and indefensible.
Refuseniks should bear the consequences of their stupidity. Those for whom vaccine is not recommended need consideration, but the solution is not to reduce everyone else to the pace of the slowest.
However, if society now opens up on June 21st as the roadmap it is now close to being entirely academic, bar the possibility that it may be needed for travel overseas.
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Sooty - if you go to the NHS app (links below) you can download an "official" PDF record of your jab, complete with QR code. It details which jabs, which batch, dates etc and it says "for travel" does clearly and says across the top
This is a downloaded copy. Check against the bearer's identity"
Probably easy enough to forge, maybe not.
Android/Apple www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/online-services/nhs-app/
Browse to it from your desktop www.nhsapp.service.nhs.uk/login
Last edited by: smokie on Sat 5 Jun 21 at 21:15
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Cheers, I don't need that to travel but I'll let others like family and friends know who might need it to travel.
It might be useful, although I think most I know have given up on holidays abroad this year as too much faff and are staying in the uk.
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So, you come back from somewhere abroad for where you need to quarantine. On your passenger details on the way back you have to put the details of where you will be quarantining.
As part of coming back from somewhere Red you have to have a PCR test. How do you do that if you aren't allowed out? Also you can but a Get Out Of Quarantine Early test at 5 days. Same question :-)
Not really expecting anything other than use your common sense, but how do those deficient in that department ever cope? :-)
On a related subject, I know someone who flew in from America to visit her widowed sister and was checked up on every day by phone. One day she didn't pick up the phone because she was in the loo and she got a quite severe telling off. And I know someone else a long time back who had to quarantine had someone knocking on her door to check she was there.
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They do the same here. I know someone who was a little blase about the whle thing, on the basis that people don't have landlines here and so a phone call to the cell phone was going to be easy to handle, and they knocked on his door three times over a 10 day period.
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Despite my previous thoughts on returning to Spain in the near future, it’s almośt worth it for the quarantine upon return.
I’ve 3 rooms to redecorate, 3 patios to pressure wash, plenty of outside sanding and painting, plus a half decluttered garage to finish.
I could almost self impose a 14 day quarantine period, and have a detox at the same time.
The only people likely to knock on my door are the local bar staff.....
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>..plus a half decluttered garage to finish.
I've been decluttering the garage on and off for the last few days.
Today at the back of a cupboard I found two Turbo 16/4 PCMCIA token ring cards plus cables.
Willing to part with them to any distinguished member of this forum for cost of postage and insurance. They'd make a lovely Christmas/Birthday/Anniversary present for that someone special!
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...how long are the cables?.....
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>...how long are the cables?.....
They are 1 metre long with a flat connecter at the card end and an RJ45 to Boy George adapter to fit the MAU at the other. As new. Hardly ever used. I've wiped the dust off them.
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>> Today at the back of a cupboard I found two Turbo 16/4 PCMCIA token ring
>> cards plus cables.
Wow Broken ring, funny that I found a broken ring to ethernet adaptor plug t'other day.
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" The only people likely to knock on my door are the local bar staff..... "
Unless it the Old Bill because the bar staff have reported you missing :)
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 5 Jun 21 at 22:47
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I suspect that this is behind the paywall. But worth finding it if you can...
40m have had a Covid vaccine, so why is the Indian variant still a threat?
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/40m-have-had-a-covid-vaccine-so-why-is-the-indian-variant-still-a-threat-c2cmzmnmk
or
archive.fo/CtL8Z
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 6 Jun 21 at 10:30
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"Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, and vaccines can be safely prioritized to those who have not been infected before."
www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2
52000 sample is fairly sizeable, and could be construed to support herd immunity theory. Either way, that's Good News I guess.
It's certainly a bigger population than the sample it took to determine that aspirins are no use against the virus.
www.recoverytrial.net/news/recovery-trial-finds-aspirin-does-not-improve-survival-for-patients-hospitalised-with-covid-19
The larger tests create something of a problem for smaller tests because they soak up the potential audience. I've read of a test which only requires 600 worldwide that is struggling, although that's also partly because the candidates have to be at a fairly specific state (iirc positive with mild to medium symptoms, and breathlessness, and not pregnant women and other groups - the safety rules are fairly restrictive)
And lastly, as it came by today, an article on "COVID-19 Can Lead to Diabetes" directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/08/how-covid-19-can-lead-to-diabetes/
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The NHS has had a pretty tough pandemic so far and thankfully managed to stand up to everything that's been thrown at it.
There's not a snowball's chance in hell that it would survive this though:
www.theregister.com/2021/06/07/dido_harding_nhs_ceo/
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Yay!! Back into full lockdown/quarantine again!!!
Got to love living in the Third World.
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Hospitals filling up in Chile?
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Today the Governmental d*******s announced that since elective surgery results in 45% ICU occupancy they were going to suspend it for 30 days.
One might have thought that the idiots might have done that a month ago.
ICU is a bit touch and go.
They released quarantine two weeks earlier than they should have done because the Government wanted everybody to go and vote in the elections. It was a personal joy to me that the [right wing] Government then got it's a*** kicked in the elections.
The trouble is that Chileans are oblivious to anything outside the present moment and outside their own sphere.
Still, they can go shove their restrictions right where the sun doesn't shine. I have a pass, keys to my local bar and a total lack of respect for their ridiculous rules.
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www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/stop-using-innova-sars-cov-2-antigen-rapid-qualitative-test-fda-safety-communication
These are the same lateral flow tests of which the UK Govt ordered millions. If you have any, the US Govt advice is put them in the trash!!
The BMJ did say at the time (last autumn) that the tests weren't fit for purpose, and likely to give false results, which is one of the issues.
Quite an interesting back story about the UK firm which got the UK contract to supply here - I don't think it really bears any relation to the quality of the test but I do wonder what checks the Govt do before awarding contracts (remembering also the contract with the ferry company that had no boats!)
www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20201114/282299617700893
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Do you think that the person who ordered these did so deliberately despite knowing that it was a bad idea?
Or do you think that they were ordered to do so by someone who knew it was a bad idea?
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>> These are the same lateral flow tests of which the UK Govt ordered millions. If
>> you have any, the US Govt advice is put them in the trash!!
Are these the same tests we're using now? The US FDA article refers to a specific brand, Innova, but suggest other LF tests are approved.
The packs I have are generically branded NHS Test and Trace and manufactured by Xiamen in China. They do not appear to work in quite the same way as the FDA describes the Innova test.
The Press Reader article refers to Operation Moonshot; another of the governments money pit failures.
I guess at best they're a 'quick and dirty' solution to rapid home testing for school students and others at risk of becoming infected and spreading the virus. We were advised to take them before visiting the Western Isles which were in Scotland's Zone 1 and then Zone 0, well ahead of the mainland. The Central Belt, where I'm stopping over tonight, is still in Zone 2.
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I believe they are the same tests that we are using but wait till it comes out officially. Apparently here is some annoyance in (maybe the lower ranks of) the NHS because private companies are able to effectively put the NHS "branding" on their products. I don't know why.
We're all supposed to be using them regularly, and I have been - they are available free in supermarkets a& chemists etc.
When the BMJ were saying at the time that the tests weren't 100% I pondered that some body knew they'd made a decision knowing that the tests weren't likely to be 100% - after all, I doubt many who use them (including me) use them properly, as shoving the tester down to your tonsils then up your nose as far as it will go is really quite uncomfortable - and per test I believe they are really quite cheap - but anything was better than nothing. I don't think there are/were any better alternatives at the same price. Either way I think it'd be harsh to once again blame the Govt with the benefit of hindsight - I'm sure the ordering decision was made with the best intentions.
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Strong rumours that Innova cut and pasted from another manufacturers results to help with approval!! That won't go down well!!
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Strange that the Guardian fails to mention that tests carried out by the UK have shown the devices to be suspect, as referred to in the FDA report. It would appear that it was the UK controls which have led to this situation.
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Innovamedgroup response, supposedly. Can't find verification of it.
pbs.twimg.com/media/E3nVGKNXIAEwihI?format=png&name=4096x4096
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Spain to lift restrictions for UK and Japanese... - No FM2R
