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Ongoing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 29 Jan 21 at 11:05
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I'm a little surprised this hasn't turned up in the rags yet and been regurgitated by the idiots, but it will happen.
You should read this and ready yourself for more crap from idiots.
In brief;
20,000 vaccinations, 23 deaths in very frail, very sick people in care homes, so far 13 investigated, 10 being investigated
“We are not alarmed or worried about this, because these are very rare occurrences and they occurred in very frail patients with very serious disease,”
Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency
www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 16 Jan 21 at 21:35
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>> In brief;
>>
>> 20,000 vaccinations, 23 deaths in very frail, very sick people in care homes, so far
>> 13 investigated, 10 being investigated
Investigation is of course required but the starting point should be a control group of 23,000 very frail, very sick people in care homes who were not vaccinated.
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Worth reading the article Bromp, it talks about how this is normal and to be expected with vaccines of this type. I guess Lygonos would have an opinion.
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>> Worth reading the article Bromp, it talks about how this is normal and to be
>> expected with vaccines of this type.
I scanned it and came to exactly that conclusion.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 16 Jan 21 at 22:03
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55689388
Has got to be a worry for doctors at the moment.
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I see the government are trialing 24/7 vaccination in the next week or so at a few hospitals.
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"www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/"
Interesting set of figures. Perhaps one of the more highly-educated fellows on here could remind me again of the euphilial word for epicaricacy?
;-)
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>> I see the government are trialing 24/7 vaccination in the next week or so at
>> a few hospitals.
>>
I for one would be more than happy to sit in my car at 3AM on the off chance of a no show, rather than wait until May ( or whenever). Put me on the stand by list !
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>>
>> >>
>> I for one would be more than happy to sit in my car at 3AM
>> on the off chance of a no show, rather than wait until May ( or
>> whenever). Put me on the stand by list !
>>
You bring some sandwiches, I'll bring the coffee and some chocolate.
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>> You bring some sandwiches, I'll bring the coffee and some chocolate.
>>
....and a long-poled fishing net....?
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...all joking apart, extended hours vaccination is an excellent idea, as long as the logistics, staffing and supplies support it.
Ignoring the opportunity to "jump the queue", if there is sufficient take-up even maintaining the existing category windows, it offers the chance of accelerating the complete roll-out, and brings forward the potential end-date for "loosening up".
Whilst care home residents and the over 80s may not be the best target for "out of hours" appointments, many (even most) of the other categories should have a significant proportion of people that could, relatively easily, make use of such slots.
The minute it was first discussed, both SWMBO and myself declared we would actively volunteer for such slots (if made available within the window for our defined category) if it gave a decent prospect of the overall timescale being condensed. Frankly, the only real issue for most that wouldn't be relatively easily overcome is that of transport, and a large enough proportion of the under 80's have access to that.
Conversations with friends have largely elicited the same response.
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Yeah we'd be up for it too but as I said the other day there are a host of essential workers who I feel ought to be bumped up - so maybe focus on them overnight...
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>> Yeah we'd be up for it too but as I said the other day there
>> are a host of essential workers who I feel ought to be bumped up -
>> so maybe focus on them overnight...
>>
I think at the moment the reserve lists are those in the top 4 groups, but Nadhim Zahawi did mention that after February that certain jobs might bumped up the list.
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"Apology after Dublin hospital gives staff relatives leftover vaccines"
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55696911
"The hospital proactively contacted the HSE to inform them of the additional available doses and actively sought out frontline workers to vaccinate."
Not enough were found, so they had a choice, throw 16 doses away or give them to whoever they could find at short notice. So they found 9 over the age of 70 and 7 others of varying ages by asking hospital staff who could get there.
What would everybody have preferred? That the doses were thrown away? What a world where every decision ever made by anybody gets reviewed by people in the media representing other people who fear that someone might get something they don't.
FFS.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 18 Jan 21 at 12:32
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I don't see any issues either, it's still early days in Ireland with this vaccination, it looks like the booking system wasn't up and running. Bar walking around in the street outside not sure what else they could do at the last minute.
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My lady friend who is 79 had a text message at 10 59am today, request to confirm her birthdate and her first jab is booked for 10 10 am on Wednesday , the venue is a health centre 2 miles away .
Seems very efficient and positive to me.
As I am only 71 I would expect to wait a week or so before they get to my age group .
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>>, the venue is a health centre 2 miles away .
>>Seems very efficient and positive to me.
>>As I am only 71 I would expect to wait a week or so before they get to my age group .
My letter arrived a week ago ...call this number to book. I took no action
Same day a text arrived re book at local 1 mile away centre. Again I have taken no action.
A good friend, very local to us, reacted immediately to her letter and was booked in many miles away. She cancelled, rebooked at our local centre. Promptly jabbed.
Today I got a call from the local centre. Please book .
To date I have avoided calling the local centre which has a bunch of GP based there as I know it is a long queuing system and then get past the gate keepers:-)
So was able to talk directly and immediately to a friendly person on the front line and explain.
I an keen to get my jab but awaitng the letter to my wife. ( She is two years younger. )
As soon as it arrives we will book. Thus avoiding any " baby sitter" for her plus I can drive her there etc. They will call me back in a weeks time.
They said things are progressing very quickly which is great news.
My car is SORN plus no MoT. My son is sorting out the MoT and I hope no work to be done.
Soom I may be zooming on the road as well as the PC.
The local council day care centre staff have all had their jabs and hope to soon reopen the centres. Sadly they need new customers as they now have only got two from my wifes group.
( one of the originals lost her mobility due to isolation during the lockdown )
I will then after a year have a weekly pass for a few hours.
It will be very strange to me as I have not experienced all the new procedures.
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>> What would everybody have preferred? That the doses were thrown away? What a world where
>> every decision ever made by anybody gets reviewed by people in the media representing other
>> people who fear that someone might get something they don't.
>>
>> FFS.
I suspect the issue is that the people who benefitted were family of staff members. UK government bodies, and I suspect Ireland will have the same 'morality', would strongly forbid any such thing. Perhaps no harm done in this case but how much more of a step would it be for a few extra doses to be reconstituted.
Not saying that's the right way to think and I'm not defending it just that it's a possible explanation.
Hopefully they'll now agree some ground rules for leftovers.
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What was needed was a phone call to the boss of the hospital who could then have said "they consulted me before they did it, I was satisfied that I understood the situation, and I told them to get on with it rather than wasting the vaccine".
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>> What was needed was a phone call to the boss of the hospital who could
>> then have said "they consulted me before they did it, I was satisfied that I
>> understood the situation, and I told them to get on with it rather than wasting
>> the vaccine".
That, exactly.
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>> What was needed was a phone call to the boss of the hospital who could
>> then have said "they consulted me before they did it, I was satisfied that I
>> understood the situation, and I told them to get on with it rather than wasting
>> the vaccine".
I suspect that they did just that. But you don't really think that would have made any difference to the reports or the outrage? It would have just focussed it on a single named individual who would instantly have been called on to resign. So it has not been said by the hospital spokesman.
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Maybe you're right, and I did wonder. I hoped Ireland might have been a bit more pragmatic somehow.
I did some stuff in Ireland about 20 years ago to do with financial regulation. In the UK it was and is an enormous industry (the regulation I mean, not the insurance). This was all under an EU directive, theoretically the same situation for both countries. I was astonished to find that I could literally ring up the Irish regulator and get a practical answer to a question that in the UK was unresolved despite the involvement of counsel, solicitors, and various employees of the FSA.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 19 Jan 21 at 03:03
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>> I was astonished to find that I could literally ring up the Irish regulator and get a practical answer to a question.....
Same in Telecommunications.
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Kind of.
I suspect the fundamental point is that the media know that they can whip up emotions in lemmings by making them fear that someone is getting an advantage and for the media that means money.
A secondary issue is that people fear so much that someone else may be getting an advantage that they're not. Did this really start with the 80s and Thatcher's Britain or is it a human train that has only come to light in the last few years?
And how long will we accept a media that uses sensationalism to attract us? And for how long will we want sensationalism more than we want facts?
And when will we allow good people to do their jobs in the way they think best, accepting that as humans they will not be perfect or even always right.
>>Hopefully they'll now agree some ground rules for leftovers.
I guess. But why can we only do or accept anything if there are rules governing it and dictating actions?
In business one is typically trusted to do the given job and judged on results without having every second decision second guessed and without having rules, other than basic governance, overseeing everything.
Largely, I think, because the lemmings don't understand business so other than making up conspiracy theories they haven't really got anywhere else to go.
Whereas actions by health services, insurance companies, tax authorities and politicians are something they consider themselves expert on and thus hold many opinions.
I find it depressing and not a little irritating.
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My sister-in-law and her husband (both in their late 70s) received theirs in a similar situation. A GP friend of theirs had a few doses left over and after exhausting all the GPs medical contacts offered it.
I advised them not to tell anyone else.
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>> Kind of.
>>
>> I suspect the fundamental point is that the media know that they can whip up
>> emotions in lemmings by making them fear that someone is getting an advantage and for
>> the media that means money.
The report in the Irish Times, linked in the BBC article, goes into more detail. Two of the beneficiaries of the vaccine were the teenage/adult children of the Master of the hospital. A staff member is quoted as saying “It’s disgraceful that the master of the hospital arranged for his children to get the vaccine.” Presumably somebody 'went to the press'. A minister then got involved. All in all a toxic brew.
How many of the unexpected recipients were ordinary workers as opposed to the relatives of the holders of senior offices in the hospital?
I'm not sure this stuff (ie getting something they're not) even started with Thatcher. Were there not similar issues with rationing during the war?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 18 Jan 21 at 15:18
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>>I'm not sure this stuff (ie getting something they're not) even started with Thatcher. Were there not similar issues with rationing during the war?
Maybe it is just as simple as modern visibility of everything. I do wonder how much the world has changed and how much it is simply that our view of it has changed.
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Imagine a story - surplus vaccines were not wasted. Any spare vaccines due to no shows were given to the most suitable recipients we could find at very short notice.
This is not the sort of story the media want to use. The media feed off controversy and conflict which sells column inches and maximises TV audiences. If there isn't a good story, they will simply invent one, or at least skew any reporting.
By distorting stories, selective reporting, political bias or skewed unbalanced analysis the media are failing woefully to use the power they have responsibly.
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I read an interesting article the other day about why the media seem to prefer bad news.
The psychologists gathered a group of people, and told them they were testing a new camera that tracked their eye movements. They gave them a specially prepared "news website" to read, which had good and bad news in various places on the pages. They were told it was simply something to read, to test the camera, so it didn't matter where they looked or how long it took.
There was indeed an eye tracking camera.
The end result, as you will have guessed, is that generally speaking there was a preference for looking at the bad news.
Here it is:
www.bbc.com/future/article/20140728-why-is-all-the-news-bad
As an antidote, new to Alexa is "Alexa, tell me some good news", and will pull out some bit of doodah from the papers and read it to you.
I tried it once, and got some ghastly story which Alexa told me was from The Metro, whatever that is, about two women who grew up together, suffered various travails together and had their first children at the same time and...well, that was it.
And indeed, my reaction was really? How very tedious and uninteresting.
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"why the media seem to prefer bad news."
The media are largely stuffed with remainers (BBC, anyone?), and they prefer to sift out and emphasise anything, however minor, that might stir up disciples of the eu.
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>>The media are largely stuffed with remainers (BBC, anyone?), and they prefer to sift out and emphasise anything, however minor, that might stir up disciples of the eu.
I think the BBC is generally not biased. They don't really care who they stir up about what, just as long as they're stirring up someone.
I don't think there are many left who are still fighting the Brexit war anywhere. Just a bunch of small minded people who can't let it go being seen as an easy target for parts of the media wishing to make a fuss and not caring about the subject.
It used to be The Sun and Germans, and that made about as much sense as this for very similar reasons. It's all for appealing to the little minds they believe that their target market consists of.
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>> Imagine a story - surplus vaccines were not wasted. Any spare vaccines due to no
>> shows were given to the most suitable recipients we could find at very short notice.
Just a coincidence that the 'most suitable' were relatives of the Master?
In my mind that's why there's a story.
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>>In my mind that's why there's a story.
Yours and the rest of the target audience. Exactly why they write it. Seeking an audience who hopes it's true and wants to believe it.
The media cares pretty much about nothing than appealing to their target audience. All media, all audiences, good and bad.
An audience who would have whined about the doses being wasted, would have whined about any person getting it, whoever they were. And audience who fundamentally just want to whine about an injustice, real or not.
>>Just a coincidence that the 'most suitable' were relatives of the Master?
Depends what you mean by you mean to imply with use of quotes around most suitable. I doubt there was a competition and rating system, I doubt there was a selection panel. I'm sure they rang whoever to avoid wasting the doses, and if I called whoever then that would probably be one or more of my daughters.
And look, I'm not whining about him doing that because I don't panic about someone getting something I don't, I don't seek to second guess everything everybody else does, and I am prepared to believe it's a human being doing his job and probably pretty well.
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>> >>In my mind that's why there's a story.
>>
>> Yours and the rest of the target audience. Exactly why they write it. Seeking an
>> audience who hopes it's true and wants to believe it.
I'm not interested in it because of some sort of jealousy about other folks getting 'stuff'. If there's a public interest v what interests the public call on this then it's the former. If, at a time when I had responsibility for a court list I'd used some slack time, perhaps where something has dropped out, to get a case involving my family dealt with quickly I'd have been on a disciplinary. That would apply even if the court time would otherwise have gone to waste.
That's a normal principle where public resources are in play.
>> Depends what you mean by you mean to imply with use of quotes around most
>> suitable.
I used quotes because I took the words from somebody else's post. If this is a one off and a diligent search found no other takers then perhaps the Master's kids were OK recipients. If it were to become a more general thing where the family of senior staff benefitted then it need seriously looking at.
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>>I'm not interested in it because of some sort of jealousy about other folks getting 'stuff'.
No, you're not. And if I clumsily made that association then I apologise,
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I see the number of those vaccinated per day has fallen each day for the last few days. Hopefully it'll pick back up again pretty soon, not seen any reasons for it.
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There seems to be a postcode lottery involved. A 90-year-old acquaintance living in Orpington has received no communication from the government and their surgery says it has no vaccines and not to call again.
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I think thats inevitable, you won't get uniform rate across the country. Pretty much impossible.
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A degree of patience is called for by everybody. Nobody will miss out.
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Yes they will. All the thousands of illegal immigrants and their families will.
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That's a thought.
I wonder if anybody has thought that through.
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>> I see the number of those vaccinated per day has fallen each day for the
>> last few days. Hopefully it'll pick back up again pretty soon, not seen any reasons
>> for it.
>>
410k yesterday, and 2.15m over the past 7 days. The daily numbers do seem to dip at the weekend; as all the centres are open 7 days a week then I’d have thought it’s either staffing or lack of demand for weekend slots?
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It's the drink. Alcohol kills the virus. Well known fact that. ;-)
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Fri 22 Jan 21 at 17:40
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Yes I noticed that, I doubt it's lack of staff if anything they've got more. A couple of people I know have got jobs doing the jabs are only working weekends, I guess they'll be a fair few others doing this as a second job at a weekend.
Perhaps pensioners prefer a week day appointment.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 23 Jan 21 at 03:41
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I'm not yet a pensioner (thanks to to govt moving the goalposts) but I don't work - SWMBO is the same. We agreed earlier if they happen to offer us middle of the night come-and-wait-in-case-there's-a-gap appointments we'd go for it (ideally so long as you;d get it sometime that night).
Nurse daughter has now completed the training. She has three different methods by which she may end up jabbing - on the "bank" on her days or nights off, as overtime in her own trust but she is moving to a secondment as clinical nurse which is usually a f/t role but they are talking about all hands to the pump and people in that particular role may be allocated for up to 2 days a week instead of their normal role.
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Likely to be an increasing occurrence I think....
"Saga cruises says all customers must be vaccinated"
www.bbc.com/news/business-55738918
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Given that most of their pax are over 80, it wont be a problem
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I have to believe that there are some SAGA anti-vaxxers who are going to need to make a choice. Which amuses me.
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My local surgery are currently vaccinating patients aged 79, and are arranging appointments for those a year younger.
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One other issue that I'm hearing about and unfortunately my wife, who also works in theatres, is experiencing…
Currently there doesn't seem to be a program where nursing staff who work in the private sector can obtain the vaccine, like a lot of private hospitals at the moment they are carrying out work for the NHS as they are 'green' locations free from CV19, the companies running the hospitals don't want to organise their staff to get the jab in the same way as their colleagues in the NHS hospital down the road have.
Crazy thing is that she has been given her box of lateral-flow tests to use twice a week from the same hospital but for the vaccine they've just been left hanging.
I'm really hoping that things will change once the AV vaccine is more readily available.
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>> Currently there doesn't seem to be a program where nursing staff who work in the
>> private sector can obtain the vaccine,
Must be a local thing to you. Friend of Mrs Z who is a nurse at our local Nuffield has had the Vaccine, My son who services & calibrates hospital path lab equipment has had the Vaccine.... both work with but not employed by the NHS.
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Seems where my wife works the NHS Trust that they are linked with doesn't have a good rep for organising things (major SE London hospital that's swallowed up loads of out lying hospitals).
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>> I have to believe that there are some SAGA anti-vaxxers who are going to need
>> to make a choice.
>>
They wont remember which choice they made or why,
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I'd be amazed if nearly every cruise line didn't take this attitude, the cruise ship outbreaks had hundreds holed up and the ships tied up for weeks.
Incidentally, a comparison of two of the plague ships showed that the one on which the passengers wore masks had less severe illness that the one on which they didn't. The putative explanation was lower viral loads.
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Will you have to give permission for your medical records to be accessed by Saga then? And RyanAir. And the pub, and the theatre and.. .
It has to be more than just a self ticked box on a form when you book?
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>> Will you have to give permission for your medical records to be accessed by Saga
>> then?
....I think you already have to provide them with medical evidence that you're still alive.....
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They just need to know you'll survive till the flight home.
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You could have the details on your chip n pin national ID card...............
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Miss FC is 24, fit and healthy. She works in the pharmacy of a very well known chemist chain.
Vaccination next week. Her twin is shielding and there is nothing on the horizon just yet.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Thu 21 Jan 21 at 12:36
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>> Miss FC is 24, fit and healthy. She works in the pharmacy of a very
>> well known chemist chain.
>>
>> Vaccination next week. Her twin is shielding and there is nothing on the horizon just
We have a local Community Pharmacy. The head Pharmacist regards his staff as being at risk - rightly I think - and has procured via their partner GP group sufficient vaccine for his staff. I assume the "very well known chain" have taken the same view.
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As an aside; twin girls?? Two girls in the house that were 13 years old at the same time??? I'm surprised you survived. One at a time was bad enough.
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Had a 9:30 appt this am at a local health centre for an abdominal aorta scan (I just qualified by age).
It's quite a big building, bigger than a few houses, and contains quite a number of GPs, and when I've used it before (pre COVID) it's been fairly busy. Today you buzz the door and they open the door, squirt some stuff on your hands and take your temp then you are allowed in.
They've taken away the chairs in the communal waiting area so you stand on a socially distanced yellow cross waiting for your appt. In the old days it would have had 15 or 20 people sitting there. Today at the time I was there there was one older woman and a mum with child, and that was it.
Aren't people getting sick, have all the ill ones died or are the docs just not doing much? I know I've been directed towards video doc so maybe that's what's going on, but what are the docs doing with their time??? (I'm sure they are very busy in reality but at my own medical centre it seems impossible to get in and see one of them - I don't blame them for playing hard to get but where are they?.)
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Snap smokie. I received my invite a few months after my birthday and visited a local health centre earlier this month. Only the second time I’d visited this place, six of us waited patiently outside, let in one at a time, but it seemed very quiet. Two of the others were having a similar scan, of which I’d never heard. I got a clean bill of health, comments were made about the tan on my stomach, and off I went to the local Tesco to stock up on beer.
The local hospital in Skipton, which isn’t A & E, has become a vaccination centre. Locally most, if not all, of the (very) oldies have had their first jabs. My old mums second jab was scheduled for 12 January, but like everyone else it’s been postponed. For good reason. I’m hoping to get mine when I return from Spain mid June..the power of positive thinking.
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>> Aren't people getting sick, have all the ill ones died or are the docs just
>> not doing much? I know I've been directed towards video doc so maybe that's what's
>> going on, but what are the docs doing with their time???
You should visit your local hospital. whereas the entrance is normally heaving with people at enquiry desks, visiting rellies, queuing at the lifts for all their clinics, etc etc its now like - err - well - a morgue. You know the wards + ICU are full, the rest of the operation is more or less shut down. Its quite surreal.
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>> You should visit your local hospital. whereas the entrance is normally heaving with people at
>> enquiry desks, visiting rellies, queuing at the lifts for all their clinics, etc etc its
>> now like - err - well - a morgue. You know the wards + ICU
>> are full, the rest of the operation is more or less shut down. Its quite
>> surreal.
>>
On a recent visit to A&E in the early hours, the paramedic said cheerfully "Nice and quiet tonight, there's only one screamer in". He was right.
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You should visit your local hospital.
Well I guess there's nowhere else open to spend an afternoon, still a bit niche though.
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Its had its moments and still does:)
They can have their moments but are as thick as thieves. You'd think I'd learn my lesson but say anything about the other sibling, even if you have a valid point, and a whole load pain descends.
The beauty of them when they were young was that you could actually leave them playing for a while so you could get on with some chores. They would entertain themselves instead of constantly demanding attention.
Mind you I do remember once that it had been quite for some time and I caught them behind the sofa hacking great chunks of curly blonde hair off each other with scissors. Oh how I laughed :S
The phone call to their mother who was at work was something else.
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>>The phone call to their mother who was at work was something else.
Probably not dissimilar to the call I had to make once when the girls did each others make-up with paint.
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Aye, that would do it.
Or, the time when my wife had borrowed my car for some reason, so I had hers, and I decided to take the dog and the child out in it, both of whom puked in it...
"You'll laugh when I tell you darling..."
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Thu 21 Jan 21 at 14:22
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>>"You'll laugh when I tell you darling..."
And it's strange, they never do......
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"Probably not dissimilar to the call I had to make once when the girls did each others make-up with paint."
Was it preceded by an extended silence? :)
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Girls and dogs, neither of them to be trusted when they're quiet.
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>> Girls and dogs, neither of them to be trusted when they're quiet.
If you cant see 'em, they are up to no good.
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>>The phone call to their mother who was at work was something else.
Like when my eldest (3-year-old) daughter was found cutting her (one-year-old) sister's nails with a pair of scissors. She'd seen her mum do it and 'was helping'.
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My mate's 2yr old washed daddy's car with a handful of stones.
Laughed my backside off.
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Looks like the EU have royally screwed this up
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55771223
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Looks like, there's a way to go until all this is over though.
There's a good article in the spectator about this, the author wasn't a fan of the EU, so had a slant but it was an interesting read. Basically too big, too slow, too worried about buying enough vaccines from Germany and France equally.
The government took a fair bit of flack over not joining the EU vaccination program, whether by luck or judgment they look to have dodged a bullet on this, so far anyway.
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I've heard a local vaccination centre is closing next week, due to lack of supplies.
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they are shifting stocks around the country as required. If one region in need falls behind the effort moves there.
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>> I've heard a local vaccination centre is closing next week, due to lack of supplies.
>>
Closing down, or just shutting for a week?
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>> I've heard a local vaccination centre is closing next week, due to lack of supplies.
There are certainly issues with supply of vaccine. There may, or may not, be a hiatus with Pfizer re-organising so as to increase supply in the longer term - accounts of this vary. Various spokespeople for the medical profession (Claire Gerada, former chair of the RCGP was on Radio 4 earlier this week) have described supply as 'lumpy' or unpredictable. It seems the commissioning groups have to wait to be allocated supply, at which point they call up patients in priority order. Some groups have been well ahead of others with inevitable consequences:
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/07/covid-kills-half-of-sussex-care-homes-residents-over-christmas
I think government ministers doing the daily broadcast round really need to more frank and open about this than Dominic Raab was last Sunday.
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Nottinghamshire issued invitation letters to the 75-79 group this week. (I know a number of people who have received them).
Due to various issues (nebulously described, but largely attributed to lack of supply) however, all slots for that age range have now been "postponed" sine die (albeit it is hoped to recommence at the end of next week). Absolutely no availability online has been made available despite the invitation.
Ironically, though the Yorkshire region, for example, is having its supplies reduced because it is ahead of the game, Notts is one of the worst performers.
(An awful lot of Notts GP practices were closed or working on very reduced staffing yesterday, as they were having a concerted blitz on the care homes).
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Turn up for the books. Telephone call received at 18.50. How quickly can Miss FC get here?
Local vaccination centre situated at a racecourse. 10 minutes away. She is shielding. Doors were closing at 19.00 but they waited a couple of minutes.
It was a very last minute not wishing to waste the last vaccine in the bottle call but nevertheless very well received.
So the other one gets hers through her pharmacy job next week leaving the two elders in the house waiting their turn.
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Good for her. And one less worry for you, I guess.
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Sure is. The whole Covid thing is getting to her as she is also trying to complete her last year at Uni doing a primary teaching degree. She should have been on placement at the moment and had to pull out of last years placement due to Lockdown 1.
Hopefully this will give her some confidence that she is on the road to being safe.
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Good result there for your daughter FC.
It would be a great idea if the centres had a list of people with their phone numbers available at short notice to take up spare jabs left at the end of the day.
To waste any is criminal.
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Yes it is. Apparently there are some difficulties in filling last minute slots with the more elderly as they like a bit more notice to get organised, so this happened to fall into place as a reserve.
Not that Ive experienced it but it felt a little bit like an organ donor becoming available. It was strange.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 24 Jan 21 at 01:29
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Gobby Italian PM moans about delay to a vaccine that the EU still have not approved. Even threatens legal action. Approval is not expected for another week.
"Covid: Italian PM brands vaccine delay 'unacceptable'"
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55780431
It would appear that the EU has made a proper pigs ear of this.
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Where is the "Thousands will die because of poor EU response to pandemic!" headline?
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>> Where is the "Thousands will die because of poor EU response to pandemic!" headline?
>>
>>
I'm sure there's plenty if you were minded to look, I doubt it's escaped notice.
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I don't know about the rest of Europe, but Spain and Italy don't have the s***ty, low life gutter press that the UK has.
Those are a delight mostly appreciated by the British.
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According to the BBC the Italian government are now starting legal action against the companies.
I'm not sure how much this ties in with them just going to a minority government after some smaller parties pulled out of the coalition.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 25 Jan 21 at 02:10
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It's the 24th Jan. Pfizer have said only the EU is affected and supplies will be back to contracted levels by 1st Feb. What does the tool think he'll achieve in 6 days?
Insofar as AZ is concerned the original orders were contingent on approval. It hasn't been approved yet. As I understand it there will be at least another week delay before it is approved. And there is a delivery lead time beyond the approval date.
AZ have said deliveries to the EU will be slower, though will still start when promised, but haven't said much more though I hear there are production problems in one of it's EU plants.
Gobby has said that "Such delays in deliveries represent serious contractual violations, which cause enormous damage to Italy and other countries,". Well they may, or they may not. And in all likelihood they probably don't. The contract will be for a total amount, I suspect that the delivery schedule will be full of conditions and clauses, not least of which will be approval.
As an aside various EU countries said that they thought AZ should start distributing without approval. The issue with that being that the financial risk on delayed or problematic approval would then be AZ's not the EU's.
Further I doubt that this a contract between Italy and AZ. Italy's agreement is probably with the EU for their share and then the EU have a contract with AZ. You'd think then that his argument will be with EU and good luck with that one.
I can only assuming it's grandstanding by a wannabe.
AZ have said that there will be no impact on the UK.
On the Pfizer 'delays' this is apparently related to whether one can obtain 5 or 6 doses from a single vial. Pfizer say that their contract is for doses so they will deliver less vials.
The UK have accepted this whereas the EU says it's not fair. Pfzer and the UK maintain that the schedule in the UK will not be affected whereas some EU countries maintain it's a catastrophe. I suspect that the fact that it is almost impossible to use 100% of the doses any shortfall from 6 doses per vial will be absorbed through wastage,
I understand there are also ongoing arguments between the EU countries and the EU because it is believes that the EU is not managing either the approval or the procurement strongly enough.
Who knows for sure? I'd say that the UK is far enough ahead of the game that they an flex around normal fluctuations whereas the EU has pushed it to the wire, has no tolerance left and cannot.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 24 Jan 21 at 16:33
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> I can only assuming it's grandstanding by a wannabe.
I understand there are also ongoing arguments between the EU countries and the EU because
>> it is believes that the EU is not managing either the approval or the procurement
>> strongly enough.
>>
I would imagine the two to be linked, domestically he's been weakened and so looking to take a role that the EU isn't or can't. I'm guessing he thinking this will play well in Italy.
>> Who knows for sure? I'd say that the UK is far enough ahead of the
>> game that they an flex around normal fluctuations whereas the EU has pushed it to
>> the wire, has no tolerance left and cannot.
>>
Almost certainly, I guess ordering the vaccines several months (iirc) before the EU would help. Put bluntly, You snooze, you lose?
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And for once the second mouse doesn’t get the cheese
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"Moderna vaccine appears to work against variants"
www.bbc.com/news/health-55797312
"unlikely that the B.1.1.7 lineage will escape BNT162b2 [Pfizer]mediated protection."
www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.18.426984v1
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Merck have thrown in the towel on their vaccine
www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210125005234/en/Merck-Discontinues-Development-of-SARS-CoV-2COVID-19-Vaccine-Candidates-Continues-Development-of-Two-Investigational-Therapeutic-Candidates
The Sanofi/GSK one's still delayed but not sure how long (some say Feb some say end of year)
Not sure who else is coming along but it looks like the three main candidates are already in play.
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This is a (kinda) live vaccination number counter. I guess it's just extrapolating from existing data of course, but still vaguely interesting to compare us to US or world.
covidvax.live/location/gbr
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"At this rate, Chile could have 70% of people vaccinated (2 doses) in 9,639 days (or by 16 Jun 2047)."
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They have just today announced receipt of the first shipment as part of 36 million doses of the Sinovac vaccine.
One would assume that this will signal the beginning of a mass roll-put though there is no practical sign of it yet.
However, once they get going I do expect them to progress quickly.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 25 Jan 21 at 18:38
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>>The Sanofi/GSK one's still delayed but not sure how long (some say Feb some say end of year)
A few interesting things here. Firstly they are re-doing Phase 2 of trials with a new formulation to try to increase the concentration of the antigen caused. Whilst the vaccine worked, it's effect was too weak to prevent significant amounts of infection.
Earliest is EOY/21 assuming no further difficulties.
The EU has ordered 300 million doses of this vaccine which they had originally envisaged receiving late Q1/21 after approval Jan/Feb 21 hence their reduced ability to deal with slower delivery schedules from other vaccines.
The confusing statements & dates are probably caused by the fact that Sanofi is developing two different approaches, the second of which would have been considerably behind the first, were it not for the delay to the first. They now overlap.
My guess would be that GSK accept that they have missed the original world-saving impact and are now looking at developing a stable, easy to store, easy to deliver vaccine believing that long-haul adaptable vaccines will be required.
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I think I read that the gsk/Sanofi worked well on the under 55s but was pretty poor amongst those older.
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You may be right, though I don't think it was as old as 55.
Nonetheless it generated much lower concentration of antigens than they needed and thus the move to a new formulation and a return to Phase 2 testing.
I'd take from that the point that whilst the technology and approach were not total losses, the implementation had to be re-thought.
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Brexit will be trivial compared to this if the report is accurate and the EU follow through.
I don't think they will risk restricting exports to the UK with the AZ vaccine because of the production licence, but you never know.
Not that they've actually approved the vaccine yet.
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I've no doubt, whatever is in the contract, this is a bit of deflection. I would imagine she under a *little* bit of pressure right now.
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I know not much about the production of Vaccines, but I was astonished that any industry could develop, produce and ship billions of product in such short timescales. I guess its no surprise to me then that it turns out they cant.
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If today’s edition of The Times is correct then the EU chose to negotiate hard on price and assuring that the pharma companies accepted liability for any issues caused by the vaccine. Whereas many countries negotiated on the basis of guaranteed supply and were willing not to insist on liability being assumed. If true that’s a monumental failure in terms of understanding the scale of the problem and what they needed from the negotiation versus what they wanted... Though of course if these vaccines do have long term effects that no no one foresaw then their approach will be proved to be right :)
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The EU have screwed up big time and want some one else to blame.
No different to Brexiteers who would happily point to the EU as the bogeyman whether they were clearly responsible or not.
In the last few days there have been countless stories emanating from our pathetic media - Michael Gove breaching lockdown rules playing rugby, AZ vaccine only 8% effective in over 65's to mention but two. Truth in the media is fast becoming endangered, subordinated to what sells newspapers and advertising space.
Wait a day or two and perhaps some consensus of reality will emerge. Until then don't take any story at face value unless it is either consistently reported and preferably has a real evidence base.
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AZs CEO seems to think, as many of us thought though without any facts to support it, that the EU doesn’t have a leg to stand on contractually when it comes to the delivery schedule:
“It’s not a commitment we have to Europe, it’s a best effort,” Soriot told the newspaper. “The reason why we said that is because Europe at the time wanted to be supplied more or less at the same time as the UK, even though the contract was signed three months later.”
www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-eu-astrazeneca-idUKKBN29V2CK
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Thanks Peter. A fuller report of that interview here. A long read, but interesting, and if you are bored with Daily Mail stories about growing two heads or Boris running a plot to deliberately kill us all, reassuring.
www.repubblica.it_pascal_soriot_ceo_astrazeneca_coronavirus_covid_vaccines-284349628/
Edit: for some reason that link doesnt work, though its what I see in the address bar when reading the article. I'll see if I can work it out when I get a chance.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 27 Jan 21 at 09:27
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Yes, well done. No idea why it works with your odd reference on the end or where that comes from, but anyway.
Thanks.
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“Best efforts” is actually quite a high standard. It’s just short of a guarantee and can require a party doing everything to remedy a problem at the expense of all other activities.
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Yes best efforts does imply "Leave no stone unturned" and a higher standard than reasonable efforts or best endeavours but what it actually means in any particular contract will be open to the courts . The lawyers are in for a good pay day
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This is a spectacularly bad move by the EU, bearing in mind they cant make all the vaccine they need within the bloc and will need to import.
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The EU screwed up and want someone to blame.
The UK provided much more funding than EU to vaccine research and production and signed up much earlier. If the UK were competent in drafting any agreements they would have ensured they had priority.
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From 'The Liberal Democrat Voice" 10th July 2020
"Government unwillingness to work with EU is unforgivable
Responding to reports UK has opted out of the EU’s coronavirus vaccines scheme, Liberal Democrat Health Spokesperson Munira Wilson said:
When coronavirus is such a threat to people’s lives and livelihoods, Ministers should leave no stone unturned in their bid to end the pandemic.
This Government’s stubborn unwillingness to work with the European Union through the current crisis is unforgivable.
The crisis does not stop at any national border. It is about time the Prime Minister started showing leadership, including fully participating in all EU efforts to secure critical medical supplies and a vaccine."
Fortunately, no one takes any notice of the Liberal Democrats.
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Where's all the articles and posts saying how smart and clever out government were? There are plenty saying otherwise.
Credit where credit is due...
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>> Where's all the articles and posts saying how smart and clever out government were? There
>> are plenty saying otherwise.
>>
>> Credit where credit is due...
>>
They took a big gamble and it has paid off. If the AZ vaccine had not proved viable there would be a lot of poo flying around now. We are are very fortunate to be in such a good position.
i do think thought that vaccination is world wide problem. Squabbling amongst the worlds richer nations as to who get the vaccine first is not a good look.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 27 Jan 21 at 15:49
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>> i do think thought that vaccination is world wide problem. Squabbling amongst the worlds richer
>> nations as to who get the vaccine first is not a good look.
Well the poorer ones are not getting any vaccinations so who else we going to squabble with.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 27 Jan 21 at 15:51
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>> Squabbling amongst the worlds richer nations as to who get the vaccine first is not a good look.
No, it wouldn't be. Fortunately that is not what is going on, at least from the UK's perspective.
And even the EU is squabbling with a company, not a country.
The EU is in the wrong. They ordered three months later due to their own approach and *still* haven't approved the vaccine they're arguing about. They pinned 1/3 of their hopes on a vaccine that will not be available and dealt with the other vaccines with that in mind. They tried to accurately order. I presume they had the bean counters do it.
The people of the EU should not be held to account because of the incompetence of their Government. But the Government damn well should be.
And the EU Government's current grandstanding is not related to obtaining more vaccine doses, that is already in hand. It is trying to sling the mud in the direction of the vaccine companies to cover up their own screw ups.
They need to put their hands up, admit they screwed up the entire process and start working for the good of the people, not their own messed up processes and self-importance. Which is what has always been wrong with the EU.
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"start working for the good of the people, not their own messed up processes and self-importance. Which is what has always been wrong with the EU."
Like you, I've thought this for years.
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Not like me. Not ever, ever like me. I am not an ignorant, tedious, bigot.
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" I am not an ignorant, tedious, bigot."
I don't think anyone said that you were.
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I don't think I said anyone said that I was.
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i do think thought that vaccination is world wide problem.
That's what the gov minister said this morning.
I think they are trying to stay on the sidelines of the EU and AZ arguement and not get drawn in.
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>> Credit where credit is due...
Indeed. Very well deserved.
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>> Credit where credit is due...
Indeed, but let's not overdo it - they had to do something right eventually. If they can keep it up I might change my opinion of them.
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>>
>> >> Credit where credit is due...
>>
>> Indeed, but let's not overdo it - they had to do something right eventually. If
>> they can keep it up I might change my opinion of them.
You're not easily pleased, are you?
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>> If
>> >> they can keep it up I might change my opinion of them.
>>
>> You're not easily pleased, are you?
Generally, yes. Otherwise I'd be a right miserable sod and I'm not. I'm actually very happy that something has gone right.
We don't actually know who did it, presumably some person or persons working for the erstwhile vaccine tsar and crony Kate Bingham who most famously spent £670,000 on a PR contract. So well done them.
Reputations are funny things. They are usually made by many acts, and sometimes lost by one. Johnson & Co have a lot of work to do.
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>> “Best efforts” is actually quite a high standard. It’s just short of a guarantee and
>> can require a party doing everything to remedy a problem at the expense of all
>> other activities.
He's probably paraphrasing. I was advised a long time ago never to agree to "best endeavours/efforts" as it can be construed as agreeing to move heaven and earth. If I didn't want to contract absolutely I always went for reasonable endeavours, or maybe all reasonable endeavours if really pushed. At least then if it comes to court you can have an argument about what is reasonable.
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At least then if it comes to court you can have
>> an argument about what is reasonable.
>>
Many are the lawyers who have made a reasonably good living arguing in court as to what is or is not ' reasonable'
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>> At least then if it comes to court you can have
>> >> an argument about what is reasonable.
>> >>
>>
>> Many are the lawyers who have made a reasonably good living arguing in court as
>> to what is or is not ' reasonable'
Indeed. In practice I think more arguments are settled on the steps of the palais de justice for that reason. I've had a handful of 'disputes' in my job, and none has actually ended up in court even though proceedings were initiated.
The most interesting one went to mediation (not arbitration), by a QC agreed to by both parties after several had been proposed. It wasn't settled on the day, but the QC carried on chipping away afterwards (he didn't want a failed mediation on his score sheet) and it was settled a few weeks later. Had it gone to court it would have been a £10m toss up, plus costs. There wasn't actually a 'reasonable' obligation in that one, there were some precise definitions - it came down to whether they could "reasonably' be applied in certain circumstances that had not been contemplated when the contract was signed. We thought it was reasonable to do so, they didn't. It think it probably would have gone our way as it would have been in strict accordance with the contract IMO, but we were in no doubt that it would have been ground out at great expense.
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>> Indeed. In practice I think more arguments are settled on the steps of the palais
>> de justice for that reason. I've had a handful of 'disputes' in my job, and
>> none has actually ended up in court even though proceedings were initiated.
Once the court clerk has called the case on the costs go sky high, the Barristers get their first day if not the refreshers they'd expect from day 2. If the judge is hacked off with waiting in his room while the parties (finally) talk he'll threaten getting them in court to explain themselves.
OTOH if you're the listing officer charged with making the most of a Judge's time you'll pack the list so there's still a day's work for His Honour even after the usual number have settled. Sometimes you'll get it wrong and His Honour is still sitting at 6:30pm.
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FFS, the Chief Plank at the EU said....
"UK factories, which have not experienced problems, were part of its deal with the company and had to deliver." to make up a perceived shortfall in the EU.
She also said that the EU would....
"restrict the exports of vaccines made within the bloc"
I wonder if her pea size brain is able to understand that should it come to it all the UK need to is follow the EU's lead and restrict exports?
Kyriakides is a gross incompetent who has screwed up everything she has touched and is now fighting for her job since she has been in charge for the whole Apocalypse..
She was appointed to the special task force to coordinate the European Union's response to the COVID-19 pandemic
How's that working out for ya, Stella?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 27 Jan 21 at 19:18
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I refer the honourable gent the reply I made around 13:00 ish
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That's really going to slow me down if I have got to start reading all your stuff as well.
Mine was a better quality comment, I gave bonus information and background.
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well considering you had 6 hours to work on it it wasnt much was it.
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You'd be surprised. My loins need some serious girding before I tackle one of your posts and these days girding takes a lot more time than it used to..
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Which is ironic, as one of the criteria that was, apparently, sacrosanct as part of the supply deal was that the vaccine was produced in the EU...
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>>Which is ironic, as one of the criteria that was, apparently, sacrosanct as part of the supply deal was that the vaccine was produced in the EU...
So many EU countries are dramatically announcing that they are running out and must slow down vaccination.
Their current troubles are not actually being caused by the AZ vaccine. It is not yet approved and in any case the first expected delivery was (and is) 15th February.
So how can that be?
Because the problem has been caused by, first, Pfizer reducing delivery quantities. When the EU tried to push them it got told to sod off.
And second because their great hope, and which would have resulted in great smugness, was Sanofi and their vaccine. Sanofi, a French company and much loved by the EU, was to be their great triumph. Sadly the vaccine is at least 12 months behind schedule and at best will deliver Jan next year.
So there wasn't much to kick there either.
Consequently the only way to protect their sorry a***s was to kick out at a company that has nothing to do with their current plight.
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Sanofi's plant in Germany is now going to produce the Pfizer vaccine for the rest of the year. It hopes to produce 125m doses by year end.
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Pretty sure I heard this morning that when AZ had problems with their UK production that doses where diverted from their European factories to compensate.
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I think the first few batches came from the European factories as part of the agreement rather anything unforeseen.
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New Oxford AZ production facility "starts today" - well actually scheduled to produce product to use by April.
UK Government bought the use of the facility in Livingston (17 miles from Edinburgh) for 12 months and paid £55m upfront in the Spring to get the existing plant modified for the new vaccine + 100% of first year production. Test samples are already in use throughout UK.
60m doses possible, fingers crossed, this year.
Here is the best bit - It's French owned company called Valneva
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"He and his friends had the mindset that they needed to go out and meet people to show they didn’t believe the government."
I wonder how his friends feel right now. s***ting themselves I hope.
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Is that a new symptom? :-)
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>> Is that a new symptom? :-)
No.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/wuhan-novel-coronavirus-background-information/wuhan-novel-coronavirus-epidemiology-virology-and-clinical-features#:~:text=More%20common%20symptoms%20are%20fever,absence%20of%20a%20fever.
"More common symptoms are fever, a new and continuous cough, shortness of breath, fatigue, loss of appetite, anosmia (loss of smell) and ageusia (loss of taste). Non-specific symptoms include shortness of breath, fatigue, loss of appetite, myalgia, sore throat, headache, nasal congestion, diarrhoea, nausea and vomiting."
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Meanwhile
Germany's vaccine committee has said AstraZeneca's Covid jab should only be given to people aged under 65.
The committee cited "insufficient data" over its efficacy for older people.
The European Medicines Agency is to decide on Friday whether to approve the vaccine for use across the EU.
The UK has been using the AstraZeneca vaccine in its mass immunisation programme for weeks now, and public health officials say it is safe and provides "high levels of protection".
Makes me glad I live in England :-)
I t looks like we might have even more vacine ?
Meanwhile a lot of elderly German folks may be unhappy.
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I was talking to my American buddy who lives in Munich this morning. We compared the story - each country's press has spun it differently (unsurprisingly...), although German press sounded more anti AZ than UK.
He said their minister had offered to publish the contract details supporting their arguments that they should get our virus whereas Z have said commercially sensitive, thus "proving" that AZ are the bad boy.
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>> Meanwhile
>> Germany's vaccine committee has said AstraZeneca's Covid jab should only be given to people aged
>> under 65.
>
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55839885
Yeah fab, the EU is saying they want all of it, and the Germans saying they wont use it.
Complete shambles.
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It appears that although neither AZ or EU are willing to publish the contract, the EU has, recently, published a copy of the contract with another vaccine supplier. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that the EU tried to make the supply contracts as similar as they could. Here’s a summary from a specialist in contract law, published in The Spectator
“We don't know precisely what the contract between AstraZeneca and EU member states says. But the EU did publish another vaccine supply contract here.
All this makes it very difficult to see what case the EU has. In any would-be-case involving this contract, the EU has two massive hurdles to jump. Firstly, contractors undertake to use their 'reasonable best efforts' to manufacture enough supply. On Page 10, we see that is further limited, because it is defined as:
'a reasonable degree of best effort to accomplish a given task, acknowledging … the timely availability of raw materials, inventories and liquid funds; yield of process; the … contractor's commitments to other purchasers of the Product … and any other currently unknown factors which may delay or render impossible, contractor's successful completion of the particular task'
To win a case, the EU has to show that the other side didn’t act with a reasonable degree of best effort. All a contractor need do is show that delay is caused by either a shortage of ingredients, lower yield from a batch, or the fact the contractor is already under a different contract to supply doses to a different country.”
www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-vaccine-row-shows-the-eu-doesn-t-understand-contract-law
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I believe in the case of AZ it is shortage of ingredients.
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Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 3 - No FM2R
