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Ongoing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 19 Jan 21 at 10:58
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There are so many grey areas with the guidance/rules/law that anyone wanting to be compliant can easily find themselves in uncertain territory and anyone wanting to break the spirit of them can probably find a loophole.
I am trying to stay safe, I am asking people to stay at a distance and I at least am wearing a mask, but it's difficult. There are trades working on our house build. We need this house, we are currently having to live in rented which is not financially sustainable for us long term, and as far as I know construction is not shut down.
On Friday I spent almost the whole day there. I had to be present when UK Power Networks's subbie came to do some work, and to check on the finishing off by the frame erectors. At one point there were c. 13 people on site (6 roofers, 2 erectors, frame supplier's contracts manager, my PM, the bloke digging the hole for the electricity cable, another delivering fascia and soffit, and me. I was back there yesterday mediating between the contractor providing the ventilation system and the roofers who will fit the tile vents. I'm there most days for one thing or another.
I'm not sure whether I've had COVID or not. I certainly think it's worth avoiding and I try to do what I think I need to do safely but I have no certainty as to whether I am actually complying with the law or not. My story would be that I am working - I am technically a self builder and whilst nobody is paying me I think I am doing the work of a self builder.
Nevertheless I'm sure an officious PC could issue me a ticket if he or she really wanted to.
Fortunately I think my hi vis jacket, muddy rigger boots and hard hat will probably save me from interference.
I am worried that construction will be stopped at some point. A massive blind eye is being turned and the onus has been put on the workers to be compliant. Reality is that it isn't happening in most cases because people do work together and indeed arrive in the same van in some cases.
Of course the temperament of many doesn't help them. I have decided that the special power of most tradesmen is their ability to find unique ways of doing things that break as many rules as possible. When challenged they give the most incredible reasons.
As for the police sitting together drinking coffee, that's a provocation whether legal or not. The erectors and roofers have been working outdoors in freezing conditions and there is a cafe on the nearby industrial estate which is closed, but doing take-aways. If there were police in there having their morning coffee and I was waiting outside for mine after 2-3 hours on the roof I'd definitely be dobbing them in.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 10 Jan 21 at 12:08
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How far off do you think your house is from being ready to move into? If you don't mind me asking.
Agreed regarding builders etc, we've a fair few round here. None seem too concerned about 2m apart, wearing masks, sharing vehicles etc.
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I'm hoping we can get it done for mid-year.
We got out of the ground on 30 November when the timber frame and insulation arrived. The roof is now part tiled and some of the windows will go in next week. Being timber framed this part has been quicker than it would have been with a masonry structure, but from here it's conventional. Brick cladding will start fairly soon, decking the attic-ed are of the loft, putting in the ventilation, first fix electrics and plumbing, heating etc, plasterboarding, kitchen, bathrooms, flooring, lighting. We can't move in until the landscaping is done under the planning permission.
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I think your original thread got hijack by youtube, it always does that to you.
Are you working on your build? Seems to me you are project / site manager so yes you are zippy police safe.
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>> I think your original thread got hijack by youtube, it always does that to you.
>>
>>
>> Are you working on your build? Seems to me you are project / site manager
>> so yes you are zippy police safe.
It's not especially complicated but there is a bit of compliance needed around H&S. My PM has been designated Principal Contractor so he is responsible for H&S. He in turn has set up a file and posted up certain requirements including the necessity for method statements from any contractors working on the site which pushes some responsibility on to them. Today I have been "instructing" my PM on some of my decisions and tidying up a bit. I suppose I could appoint myself Skip Monitor.
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Not wishing to teach people to suck eggs but.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvNbjF0gi0E
This was a set up. The stooges had been behaving in such a manner as to eventually have attract Police attention. I'm sure there were hundreds of people out exercising and enjoying a coffee who didn't get a second look. The NVCs of the first woman said a great deal.
And the comments made by the woman recording indicates her mindset and agenda. Words and phrases so often used by that type of person.
Interestingly on some other versions her final rant is omitted, probably for hat very reason.
The vast majority of these clips only show half a story and people take them as gospel. Its very sad.
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This desperation to take as gospel anything which supports ones beliefs yet dismiss anything that does not, irrespective of evidence and reality is pretty much what got the US into its current mess.
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Likewise linking to them to further an agenda.
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Get a grip.
Every single news outlet gives their own side of a story or has an agenda to promote based on their owners ideology.
Just because someone points out a source doesn’t mean that they believe it fully, it just may have piqued their interest for a time.
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I watched the video, what suggested it was a set up? Genuine question as I appear to have missed it.
what is NVC?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 10 Jan 21 at 20:20
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Non-verbal cues (or communication)
Only Sherlock Holmes and GPs notice them...
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For those of us that are neither, what were they?
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>>For those of us that are neither, what were they?
Dunno - I'm currently doing a shift in the Hospital's Covid Assessment Unit so I'm not a GP today
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Reading body language and facial expressions.
Think how you would mimic a stroppy teenager.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 10 Jan 21 at 14:01
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What made you think it's a set up? That alone or something else?
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>> For those of us that are neither, what were they?
Facial expressions; body language; how they sit, walk; eye contact or lack of it; in this case the hood kept up.
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>> >> For those of us that are neither, what were they?
>>
>> Facial expressions; body language; how they sit, walk; eye contact or lack of it; in
>> this case the hood kept up.
>>
I meant the clues in the video.
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Below is the policy adopted. It's got the flag of Wales on it but applies to all. The 4 E's.
What we see being filmed generally is the last E.
www.college.police.uk/What-we-do/COVID-19/Documents/Engage-Explain-Encourage-Enforce-guidance-Wales.pdf
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 10 Jan 21 at 14:12
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>> Below is the policy adopted. It's got the flag of Wales on it but applies
>> to all. The 4 E's.
>> What we see being filmed generally is the last E.
>>
>> www.college.police.uk/What-we-do/COVID-19/Documents/Engage-Explain-Encourage-Enforce-guidance-Wales.pdf
>>
Sorry to labour a question, I'm not sure how that pdf explains it was a set up. I'm missing some obvious I think or perhaps it needs explaining in crayon.
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>>I'm not sure how that pdf explains it was a set up
I think "set up" is the wrong phrase/ description.
More accurate to say that they went out looking for it and then played it when they found it.
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>> Facial expressions; body language; how they sit, walk; eye contact or lack of it; in this case the hood kept up.
Unfortunately many of the traits that aid the lazier white plod to excessively pull-over/stop-and-search black youngsters.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 10 Jan 21 at 14:09
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Looks set up to me, but by which party I'm not sure.
If you wanted to do a set up it would be helpful to know when and where the police planned to go out en masse to make a few examples, which judging by the numbers present is what they were about.
I do sympathise with the police, there are far too many properly obnoxious and unbelievably thick people around, but some officers just can't deal with the ordinary public in a respectful way. Not to mention the fact that they seem not to have heard of social distancing themselves.
The one thing I will say is that I would always be prepared to give my name and address, even if under protest. Common sense says they'll have you for something if you wind them up.
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"Looks set up to me, but by which party I'm not sure."
Probably the party that then stuck it on Youtube to further their agenda.
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>> "Looks set up to me, but by which party I'm not sure."
>>
>> Probably the party that then stuck it on Youtube to further their agenda.
It was certainly fortunate that whoever was holding the phone seemed to be well practised. But were they in cahoots with the 'offenders'? Or were they observing the unusually mob handed police contingent in the hope of a scene such as the one they videoed?
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Unfortunately, too many people are too stupid to realise that these laws/rules/regulations are to protect everyone from stupid people and to protect stupid people from themselves. The powers that be do not introduce them out of spite.
Plagues of old were conquered - not by electron-microscopy, genetic know-how and vaccination but when people worked out how to avoid infection - and acted upon that knowledge.
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>>Plagues of old were conquered - not by electron-microscopy, genetic know-how and vaccination but when people worked out how to avoid infection - and acted upon that knowledge.
And also once everyone had been infected you had the "surviving cohort"
Improving living standards have been the biggest change for most of them, and vaccines have pretty much made measles, diphtheria and polio vanish.
Malaria on the other hand...
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"And also once everyone had been infected you had the "surviving cohort""
And you'd lost about a third of your mates.
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but when people worked out how to avoid infection - and acted upon that knowledge.
Actually I can’t think of any viral epidemic that was successfully controlled in that way. Could you supply a few examples?
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"Actually I can’t think of any viral epidemic that was successfully controlled in that way. Could you supply a few examples?"
No, because I don't know any specific examples of viral epidemics. When I said 'plagues' I was thinking of the black death etc caused by a bacterial pathogen; the idea of isolation and the word 'quarantine' came about during the 14th century and relates to a 40-day isolation period. The same principles apply, however, as I'm sure you realise. Ships were frequently made to anchor offshore for this period to avoid transmissions from abroad.
I think you'd enjoy 'The Black Death - an intimate story of a village in crisis 1345-1350 by John Hatcher'.
Last edited by: Haywain on Sun 10 Jan 21 at 16:10
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It was the word "conquered" that I struggled with. I don't think you could say that that any epidemic was conquered until the coming of vaccines and certainly not the Black Death which periodically recurred for centuries and is still endemic in parts of Asia.
Certainly quarantine was used to try to prevent the spread of the plague but it was ineffective, witness the rapid spread along the the medieval trading routes.
Indeed quarantining shiploads of men and locking up entire households as was practised in the Black Death most likely did nothing to prevent the plague's spread and probably actually ncreased the death rate as being locked up with the vector, the BlacK Rat and its attendant fleas was effectively a death sentence.
Philip Ziegler's "The Black Death" is worth reading too.
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Yes we need measures to keep us safe but if the Govt had got their finger out and acted sooner then we wouldn’t be in this mess.
Remember we have as many deaths in one day as all of Australia has had in the entire pandemic.
It’s down to mismanagement and incompetence by our leaders and not all the general public who want some liberties.
We still haven’t banned flights!
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>> but if the Govt had got their finger out and acted sooner then we wouldn’t be in this mess.
You mean implemented much stronger restrictions, much earlier and then strictly enforced them?
>>and not all the general public who want some liberties.
>>We still haven't banned flights!
Isn't that arguing both sides of the fence?
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>> You mean implemented much stronger restrictions, much earlier and then strictly enforced them?
I think the key one is earlier. The November lockdown was imposed long after the science was screaming for a firebreak. Similar with ramping up of restrictions before Xmas and again on Monday.
The schools situation is even more farcical.
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No. It’s saying we need a lockdown but probably wouldn’t have if the earlier ones were done at the right time and done properly.
Also demonising people going for a walk around a reservoir helps no one and just makes more people think the giver have a secret agenda or the cops are on a power trip.
It’s the mass gatherings that are the problem. Along with the failure to act until March 2020, the failure to quarantine people flying in from all over the world etc.
Much of it because of political ideology and expediency - ie BJ can’t make a decision through fear of being wrong.
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>> Yes we need measures to keep us safe but if the Govt had got their
>> finger out and acted sooner then we wouldn’t be in this mess.
Yep - they could have delayed it until Easter
>> Remember we have as many deaths in one day as all of Australia has had
>> in the entire pandemic.
Comes to something when we have to admit that the Aussies are cleverer than us
>> It’s down to mismanagement and incompetence by our leaders
Yep - let's blame Boris and his advisors
>> and not all the general public who want some liberties.
We want to go away for some sunshine because we deserve it - it's what we always do.
>> We still haven’t banned flights!
You can't ban my flight - I MUST go on holiday.
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>> >> Remember we have as many deaths in one day as all of Australia has
>> had
>> >> in the entire pandemic.
UK 275 people per sq KM
Aus 3
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>> UK 275 people per sq KM
>>
>> Aus 3
Nicely explains the difference.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 10 Jan 21 at 20:21
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>>Nicely explains the difference.
To some extent but plenty of significant urban areas, eg Perth ~2 million, Sydney ~5 million, Melbourne ~5 million.
Population density compared to European urban areas is more spread out but still in excess of 2000/sq km in central areas (Glasgow 3000, London 5000 I believe).
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"To some extent but "
In her phone calls to my wife, my SiL in Australia has been talking about the authorities clamping down to isolate any outbreaks within cities, and stopping cars moving between states. I can't imagine the Aussie police standing and arguing the toss with any smartasses.
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I'd imagine the better weather, bigger houses and more outdoor space help as well.
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>Population density.
It's ridiculous stating Australia's population density is X or Y when such a large proportion of the country is uninhabited.
Their major urban centres are similar to ours.
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>> Their major urban centres are similar to ours.
But much more widely dispersed and even in normal times much less travel between them. My cousin in WA explained they've closed their borders with other states.
I don't think though she's been to what she calls the Eastern States more than a handful of times in the 45years she's lived in Oz.
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>> >>Nicely explains the difference.
>>
>> To some extent but plenty of significant urban areas, eg Perth ~2 million, Sydney ~5
>> million, Melbourne ~5 million.
I have family in Perth, there is in effect One road in / one road out, 1 railway. They already had a border post on that road stopping everyone to keep out fruit fly. Across 1000 miles of the Nullarbor desert that is the only way it would get in - Ditto CV. Plus its now HOT out there.
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>> Nicely explains the difference.
>>
...well, not really.
Australia is a very large place, and the population less than half that of the UK, hence the average population density of the country is very low.
The vast majority of the population lives in a very small part of that area, however, where the population density is, as a result, much, much higher.
In general, even the average population density of the individual higher-peopled states doesn't tell the whole story, since much of the population is near the coast and in the immediate hinterland.
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Sun 10 Jan 21 at 16:16
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>>Nicely explains the difference.
Not really you'd need to overlay population density map with a COVID density map. And then factor in geographical, weather and socio-economic maps with a detailed demographic map.
It's fairly simple. The closer people are together the more chance there is of transmitting the virus. The larger the group of people encountered in a day, in one group or not, the greater the likelihood of being next to someone who is contagious.
Masks seemingly lower the likelihood of transmission, the new variants increase the likelihood of transmission.
But fundamentally the only real way is simply to avoid contact.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 10 Jan 21 at 16:22
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"as many deaths in one day as all of ........."
Fill in the blanks with whichever country seems to be having the best of it at the time. It once was Sweden, then S Korea. Africa was said to be not suffering as bad as it might at one point.
However you look at it this is a global pandemic. Boris, thankfully, doesn't rule the world.
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Alex Bellfield is a prick. Anything that appears on his channel is there for a reason and most of it is set up.
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Totally agree. Early on there was a point that, I'm ashamed to say, I actually got hooked by some of his opinions but it didn't take long to show his true colours.
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>>Alex Bellfield is a prick
Oh he really, really is.
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>> >>Alex Bellfield is a prick
>>
>> Oh he really, really is.
He doesn't say much I'd agree with either.
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de-arrested???
Don't they usually say 'released without charge'?
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They do if there is no form of disposal which in this case there was in the issuing of FPTs
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>> Here you go. As suggested. Staged.
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-55609185
>>
Allegedly. Remember the cops have an agenda too!
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So you are prepared to believe the Sun but not the BBC.
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>> So you are prepared to believe the Sun but not the BBC.
>>
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_controversies
I broadly trust the BBC but they are reporting what they have been told by a police force that doesn't want to look bad by arresting people for doing very little, if anything actually illegal.
All news taken with salt.
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Whereas the Sun was reporting what they have been told by a group of people with a huge ulterior motive and wanting to avoid any blame.
Neither were there, both are simply reporting what they have been told, but you find one supportive of your beliefs and thus easier to accept/believe.
No shame, most people do the same. But you shouldn't be unaware of it and you should take it into account.
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As for the BBC, it is my experience that they are almost always factually correct, are rarely biased, but have a deep love of emotional sensationalism and thus one needs to concentrate on what is said*, rather than how it is said.
*or written, of course.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 11 Jan 21 at 01:27
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This case is being discussed on LBC this morning as if it was real... case being presented as an example to ex-police chiefs and ministers.
(I'm assuming we are talking about the woman handcuffed on the seafront?)
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>> This case is being discussed on LBC this morning as if it was real... case
>> being presented as an example to ex-police chiefs and ministers.
Even if, as seems to be the consensus, it was a put up job there may still be questions/learning points about how it was handled.
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>> I broadly trust the BBC but they are reporting what they have been told by
>> a police force
Correct.
"Dorset Police believe the video was planned and recorded by anti-lockdown protesters during a demonstration in Bournemouth on Saturday."
Can't fault the BBC there.
Except for lazy journalism of course over which the BBC does not have a monopoly. Obviously there is an implicit judgment about how much time and effort they put into a 'story' such as this but all they have done here is print some PR.
If the police have evidence that this was more than a simple breach of the rules then perhaps they should not have issued FPN's but brought suitable charges and evidence to court. The fact that they haven't might, or might not, be significant.
On balance I think what the CC and ACC have said is probably substantially true but it's a funny way to go about it.
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I think you will observe that a lot of these protests have been cut some some slack. Take the Speakers Corner mob that tip up every day. For two reasons. To allow 'freedom of speech' and the logistics of mass arrests/processing. These people are wanting to become martyrs to their Youtube followers. The Police basically contain the sheep until they run out of steam. I use the term 'sheep' as they tend to wander aimlessly about, in the immediate area waiting for the next bit of excitement, and have to be herded.
Some will cross the line and get themselves dealt with to the entertainment of the remainder who will then have the excuse to shout the usual expletives at the Nazi Police and "shame on you". Record the institutional brutality and splash it all over Youtube.
And remember the majority of the tax paying public are trying to conform to the restrictions as best they can and cant understand how it is that the minority are allowed to get away with what they are doing.
So onto Bournemouth. I'm making the assumption that exactly the same thing happened there. One of the Officers said that they had been followed around the town for quite a period of time.
We do not know where they came from but being 'protesters' I am making the assumption that it could have been from a fair distance but maybe not.
In any event the continuous breaching of the regulations is apparent and deemed to be talking the urine. They've had their opportunity for protest allowed but continue to push and push until action has to be taken. A bit like the naughty child. This is the set up bit.
So how do you deal? What is the substantive offence? It's a breach of the Covid Regulations. Nothing else. I feel it should be 'Wasting Police Time' but that's a personal belief.
It is a Fixed Penalty Offence - £200 reduced to £100 if paid within 14 days. If the person refuses name and address or provides false details then they can be arrested. Which these were and relishing in the drama.
Worse case scenario is being Reported for Summons or Charged to Court. The outcome would probably be very similar to the FPN which is reasonably severe. So why go through all the time consuming pain of all the other options for the same outcome. And for proportionality reasons once someone is identified then they cant be kept in custody unless there are other issues.
Of course once these clowns had achieve their objectives and it was all 'in the can' to be fed to the gullible masses they had achieved their objectives. Name and address provide and 'Sorry to waste your time Officers' - Result! Except they were rumbled. But a an amount of damage to policing was achieved.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Mon 11 Jan 21 at 11:47
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The woman arrested for exercising twice was not arrested for that because she did not break any covid related laws. Instead they classed going out more than once as anti social behaviour and arrested for that as I understand it.
Also she wasn’t physically followed but followed on CCTV which makes me wonder what technology they are using and is it justified to track everyone in that way?
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I'm imagining GCHQ have activated their full armoury of Facial Recognition software.
or maybe they are well known or their continuing behaviour forced special attention.
I'm not too familiar with the Anti Social Behaviour Act 2003 and how its implemented but as I understand it an area has to be created as a 'Designated Area' by a Supt. rank and can last 6 months.
I'd be surprised if a person took 3,4, 5 or even more periods of exercise that under normal circumstances they would get a second look.
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>>to be fed to the gullible masses
I find it depressing first how large the gullible mass is these days and second that they have no problem wandering around in the daylight for all to see.
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>> Here you go. As suggested. Staged.
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-55609185
>>
I take it you are/were in the police?
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Unfortunately it fills the majority of their workload.
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Seems the two ladies fined for exercising together while having a coffee have had their fines cancelled, maybe it was a coincidence but it came after MH was asked a direct question at today's briefing by the The Sun's reporter, she asked if it was ok to exercise with a friend while having a drink, he replied 'Yes', she also asked if it was ok to travel more than seven miles to take your exercise, he replied 'Yes'... so there you have it, if you get stopped just refer them to MH.
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Lots of comments in the media about footballers hugging when a goal is scored. Given they are tested twice a week and the hugging is for a very short period why are they being criticised, when rugby players have to touch their opponents to play the game. Why is Rugby not being banned for committing far worse Covid crimes than football?
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The media are pandering to their target lemmings who love to be fed lines about someone else in the world potentially having an easier time than they so that they know what to be outraged about.
1) WGAF what footballers do
2) They live in a pretty isolated bubble and have little contact with others anyway
3) Footballers hugging each other every time they score a goal is pretty silly anyway
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>> 3) Footballers hugging each other every time they score a goal is pretty silly anyway
Its a problem Fulham dont have
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>> Lots of comments in the media about footballers hugging when a goal is scored. Given
>> they are tested twice a week and the hugging is for a very short period
>> why are they being criticised, when rugby players have to touch their opponents to play
>> the game. Why is Rugby not being banned for committing far worse Covid crimes than
>> football?
Judging by fixture cancellations for Covid reasons RU players are subject to a rigorous testing regime too.
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55609999
As I've already observed elsewhere I did have a wry grin at the weekend when it was suggested rugger players should avoid try celebrations. Football's not exactly a no contact sport either.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 11 Jan 21 at 12:51
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>>Football's not exactly a no contact sport either.
It's Monday morning and I'm feeling pedantic...
Both games are correctly called 'football'. One is called 'Rugby Football' sometimes abbreviated to Rugger and the other is called 'Association Football' sometimes abbreviated to Soccer.
No doubt this knowledge has enriched your life. No need to thank me.
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Glad to see that Boris was not fined for exercising 7 miles from home when others were for going 5 miles or less.
Perhaps he’s taken a leaf out of Dominic Cummin’s book on how to take the Michael?
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9134855/Boris-Johnson-seen-cycling-seven-miles-No10-Olympic-Park.html
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 11 Jan 21 at 16:13
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>> Glad to see that Boris was not fined for exercising 7 miles from home when
>> others were for going 5 miles or less.
Afraid all the CCTV is still trained on you Zipster.
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Perhaps if we were all as a nation to concentrate on our own behaviour during the pandemeic instead of constatantly looking for rule breaking by others we would achieve the desired result.
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>> Perhaps if we were all as a nation to concentrate on our own behaviour during
>> the pandemic instead of constantly looking for rule breaking by others we would achieve
>> the desired result.
I wholeheartedly agree. It's an attitude which was unattractive yet prevalent in South America 30 years ago and I hated it.
Its growth in the UK is depressing.
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Stay local they say:
www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-cycle-7-miles-downing-street-olympic-park-b827961.html
Though to be fair I've gone quite a bit more than seven miles from home on a bike in the last lockdown; it's not exactly a stretch.
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One part of me thinks he can't be that stupid.
The rest of me doesn't agree.
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>>One part of me thinks he can't be that stupid.
Stupid as a human being in this environment? No, not really. In fact if everybody did it we'd be fine. I think you'd struggle to catch COVID from a bike.
Stupid as a Prime Minister not to think that every small-minded person / newspaper / internet site would not fall on it with glee? Oh yes. Dumb as mud.
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7 miles, or 14 if you cycle back again, really isn’t much for a cycle ride though, is it? Given some cyclists regularly do 30/40/50 km rides 20k is local! Anyone who cycles regularly could do it in under an hour if actually exercising to the point your heart rate is elevated, which surely is the point of exercise. Not that the law restricts you to any specific distance from home or duration...
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>> 7 miles, or 14 if you cycle back again, really isn’t much for a cycle
>> ride though, is it? Given some cyclists regularly do 30/40/50 km rides 20k is local!
>> Anyone who cycles regularly could do it in under an hour if actually exercising to
>> the point your heart rate is elevated, which surely is the point of exercise. Not
>> that the law restricts you to any specific distance from home or duration...
To be honest, even if he was driven there it's not much of a stretch on local. OK, Hyde Park and Green Park or on No10's doorstep but there may be good security reasons to go elsewhere.
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While I realise it may be inconvenient or worse to some, I like it that places might to start encouraging people to adhere to guidance. It was the norm in Portugal in Sept.
First up, masks in Morrison's
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55618408
My older b-i-l says he can't wear his mask over his nose because "it steams up his glasses". That really doesn't cut it, does it.
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In Chile you may not enter a building without a mask. You can claim as much medical exemption and breathing difficulties you like and produce any evidence you choose. Without a mask you don't go in.
Ditto in the street where you'll get a ticket. However many stooges with cameras you have.
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>> In Chile you may not enter a building without a mask. You can claim as
>> much medical exemption and breathing difficulties you like and produce any evidence you choose. Without
>> a mask you don't go in.
Thankfully the UK has disability discrimination legislation.
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>>Thankfully the UK has disability discrimination legislation.
I take your point, but greater good and all that. If you have 500 people claiming to be medically exempt and 5 who actually are, then it's pretty s*** on the 5, but potentially worse for 000s the other way.
Of course with ID cards.................
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Thankfully it does.
However there are sections of our esteemed population who will declare they have a disability when they haven't knowing that there are no back up requirements to provide evidence.
Above all I find that totally abhorrent and disrespectful to those that do have genuine difficulties wearing a mask.
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>> Thankfully it does.
>> However there are sections of our esteemed population who will declare they have a disability
>> when they haven't knowing that there are no back up requirements to provide evidence.
Round my way the number without masks is tiny; perhaps 3-4 in any one visit to a Tescoburys superstore. Of those maybe half have a sunflower lanyard because they have a lawful excuse.
Now I accept I live at the better off etc side of town and that the rate of non wearing may be more in an area where people with more difficult lives etc are concentrated.
Before we get up in arms and worry about sections of our population or posit that only 5 in 500 people claiming an exemption lets just work the real numbers.
The door keeper at Tesco's offers everyone without one a mask. He/she asks a polite neutral question of those who decline to ascertain the possibility of a 'lawful excuse'; how many (a) barge on or (b) claim excuse where non exists?
Let's understand the scale of the problem before planning a reaction.
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Quite.
Anyone who doesn’t have a ‘lawful excuse’ and won’t wear a mask gets a good kicking.
Last edited by: legacylad on Mon 11 Jan 21 at 20:13
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>> Let's understand the scale of the problem before planning a reaction.
Agreed! Though I haven’t been into a supermarket since before Christmas, I don’t recall seeing many. if any, people not wearing masks round here. Indeed I went for a walk round Chichester yesterday (arrest me, it’s 9 miles away and I drove there. I also walked for 2 hours...) and saw several building sites; on all of them the guys were wearing masks and so if thats representative then I can’t see that there’s a huge problem.
The biggest issue for Morrison’s is that the law does not require you to carry any confirmation that you are exempt and there’s no such thing as an exemption certificate or card. So what’s the person at Morrison’s going to do when they challenge someone who isn’t wearing one, and they say they’re exempt? Either let them in, in which case nothing has changed, or not let them in.
As private property of course they can let in and ban who they like. But they can’t discriminate against people who have Protected Characteristics, So banning everyone not wearing a mask will only lead to claims under the DDA and I expect, quite rightly, that the charities representing the various disabilities will be vocal in defending those who need it,
Unless they’re going to make other reasonable adjustments for them...maybe offer a personal shopper service - just hand over your list at the door ;)
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 12 Jan 21 at 10:52
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>> My older b-i-l says he can't wear his mask over his nose because "it steams
>> up his glasses". That really doesn't cut it, does it.
My son has knacked his glasses by shoving them in a pocket so they don't steam up.
For myself I've found that judicious use of the flexible wire in masks prevents steaming up.
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I believe Costco have had a similar rule for the past couple of weeks.
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>> My older b-i-l says he can't wear his mask over his nose because "it steams
>> up his glasses".
Hes right, I have not found a fool proof way to avoid that yet,
>>That really doesn't cut it, does it.
No it doesn't, I steam or I take off my glasses
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I'm with Bromp on this. Fiddling, bending and moving the wire will prevent misting.
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>> I'm with Bromp on this. Fiddling, bending and moving the wire will prevent misting.
Not always, not for a big nose
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I have an exemption, but wear a mask. It makes shop staff more comfortable and they have a hard enough time.
Re the steaming up of glasses, I use a lens wipe just after I put the mask on and it seems to reduce the steam building up.
Personally I think shop workers should be high on the list of people getting the vaccine first due to the number of people that they interact with.
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 11 Jan 21 at 18:08
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>>
>> Not always, not for a big nose
Have you been watching ‘The Life of Brian’ again ?
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>> >> I'm with Bromp on this. Fiddling, bending and moving the wire will prevent misting.
>>
Perhaps a nose clip, like some swimmers use, to clip the mask on ones nose.
Breathing just through ones mouth will of course be required.
As I/we have been self isolating for almost a year I have not really needed a mask to date but maybe in six weeks time when I might be called for jabbing.
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>>Perhaps a nose clip, like some swimmers use, to clip the mask on ones nose.
Breathing just through ones mouth will of course be required.
Why not go the whole hog and wear a snorkel too with a piece mask material fastened around the top.
:o}
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Most surgical masks with the ear loops seem to have a bendable plastic wire for shaping over the nose: these are rubbish for speccy four-eyes.
The ones with a metal wire/band fit much more snugly, reducing steaming, but I've only seen those on the masks you tie behind your head.
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Anybody who fancies one, send me an email and I'll mail you a Royal British Legion Chile facemask. They're good quality. But too thick for summer here, to be honest, but perfect for the UK.
£2 to RBL UK when you actually receive it (post can be dodgy)
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BUT if you go by the Gov.uk info I posted recently non-mask wears can quite lawfully say that they cannot wear one because 'it causes stress', it's there in the Govt own guidelines also they don't have to prove it as there is NO requirement.
Unless this is changed how far will we get?
Unfortunately just before Christmas I had to leave our nearest Lidl's as probably 1/4 of the shoppers weren't wearing masks, plus the part of town that this shop is in you 100% would not want to challenge them!
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I had much the same experience in the Lidl local to us, maybe not as high as 1/4 not wearing masks but certainly more than I felt comfortable with. This was a bit earlier than December, maybe early Autumn. Also the shop's aisles seem smaller, there's nearly always a queue to pay, leading to people backing up the aisles preventing you from getting to things if you want to maintain 2m distance and the final straw was that the hand cleansing spray stuff was pushed to one side and empty. Complete opposite experience at Asda with almost 100% compliance with masks and always plentiful supplies of hand sanitizer, sprays and tissue. Might go back to Lidl when everything calms down but not been near the place since.
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I would have thought it's as important to sanitise on the way out as on the way in. Glad to see my Tesco had provided for this (they've a one way sytem). LIDL had theirs in the shared entry/exit lobby.
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I remember earlier in this pandemic that the shop workers union instructed their members to not challenge maskless people to avoid confrontation.
I'm sure I already mentioned that in Portugal not only would the shop staff challenge you but so would other members of the public. And that's for not wearing it properly, or entering someone else's space, as well as being maskless (which I don't recall seeing at all). I got told off for being too near someone in the checkout queue - just wasn't concentrating and I wasn't *that* close.
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Our local Hospital Trust has banned the use of face coverings in hospitals. Only surgical masks are now acceptable.
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"My older b-i-l says he can't wear his mask over his nose because "it steams up his glasses". That really doesn't cut it, does it."
My glasses steam up the instance I put my mask on to enter our local Sainsbury's - so I take them off and put them in my pocket, cursing the fact that I had forgotten to leave them in the car.
A couple of days ago, I drove home after the supermarket visit and realised that I hadn't put my glasses back on again. I suspect that my ageing eyes have reached the point where long-distance vision starts to improve again. Mind you, I'm not sure how good they'd be for night-driving.
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>>
>> A couple of days ago, I drove home after the supermarket visit and realised that
>> I hadn't put my glasses back on again. I suspect that my ageing eyes have
>> reached the point where long-distance vision starts to improve again. Mind you, I'm not sure
>> how good they'd be for night-driving.
>>
Cataracts?
Have you had the minces checked for cataracts? Having them dug out (if present) would make a massive difference. I had mine done about 5? years ago, now I can see for miles.
Seriously, have 'em checked.
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Thanks, Duncan.
I don't think that it's cataracts because my eyes have been rigorously checked over the past couple of years for 'other things' i.e a large 'floater' that might have indicated a detached retina, something referred to as 'narrow-angles' and flashing jagged lines which we suspect were associated with hyponatremia. None of the opticians, including those at the hospital, mentioned that they'd seen evidence of cataracts. I will certainly ask the question, however, next time I get my eyes checked.
ISTR that, during o level biology some 60 years ago, it was mentioned that as your eyes get older, they can change shape such that your distance vision can improve ........ but your 'reading' vision deteriorates. I daresay in the near future, I will be able to drive to the supermarket without glasses ..... but won't be able to read any of the labels when I get there!
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>>.. but won't be able to read
>> any of the labels when I get there!
>>
Precisely my problem .
I wear varifocals and although I have athsma problems and wheeze a bit these days, I happily wear my mask in Sainsburys.
So then my glasses mist up despite adjusting the wire and I move the glasses forward , this stops the misting but means I simply cannot read the labels. It is a PITA but necessary so I just put up with it and get in and out as quickly as possible.
Last edited by: helicopter on Tue 12 Jan 21 at 15:18
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We're a bunch of sad old gits. I got an idiot string so I could find them when I wanted to read labels. I take a deep breath and hold it it while I replace my specs.
I've found that putting a half twist in each elastic reduces the problem. I suppose it tightens up the mask and causes the top to be pulled down whilst pulling the bottom up.
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" I got an idiot string so I could find them when I wanted to read labels."
Thank you for that memory jog - I have such a string in a case with my old glasses that I used when out with my mate on his boat. I'll have a look for it ....... now, where did I put my glasses???
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Mine mist up instantly but once they have reached room temperature any problem is much reduced.
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That's a serious ski-jump!
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Citizens of LA County are being obliged to wear masks indoors. What next, I wonder: sexual intercourse allowed but only with social distancing?
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>> sexual intercourse allowed but only with social distancing?
Reverse cowgirl?
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>> Reverse cowgirl?
I don't know whether to be pleased or not that not only do I not know what that means, I can't even imagine what that means.
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"Reverse cowgirl?"
You'll have to give us a reference, Brompt!
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Not here he doesn't!!!
You have the internet.
Just make sure you delete your search history!! :-)
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 13 Jan 21 at 15:10
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Smokie...maybe redirect him to BBD for an explanation ?
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...Bromp is probably sitting at home now.......
......."did I really type that, rather than just thinking it?"
:-O
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>> "Reverse cowgirl?"
>>
>> You'll have to give us a reference, Brompt!
You won't like it Haywain. It's foreign.
;-))
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"You won't like it Haywain. It's foreign. ;-))"
Oh, I dunno.
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>>I can't even imagine what that means.
It's to do with Sex,Cc: www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRnPZ2xqbas
Nearly deleted without looking at it but I took a deep breath and clicked .... oh, how disappointing!! :-)... smokie
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 13 Jan 21 at 16:53
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>> Citizens of LA County are being obliged to wear masks indoors. What next, I wonder:
>> sexual intercourse allowed but only with social distancing?
>>
No they aren't'. you are exagerating for the sake of a story.
The chief medical officer of Los Angeles county made the following comment.
"Ferrer also issued a new recommendation: People who live with elderly residents or with residents who have an underlying medical condition and must go out of their households should wear a mask at home."
Seems entirely logical.
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You must have used a different source. Mine did not go into such detail. I think it was MS News, or maybe BBC text.
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Today from the Trust...
Miss Z got home at 21:00, should have been 20:00, plus 10 minutes for driving but not too bad in the scheme of things.
She was on emergency surgery today. Several laparoscopies, all emergency appendix removals. These things seem to happen in batches locally because last time she worked in A&E when on rotation here 3 years or so ago, there were three cases of men coming in having self amputated part of their hands with power tools on the same day.
There has been oxygen supply issues of late and today Miss Z noticed lots of men in boiler suits and sparks flying as they replaced oxygen pipes with new larger ones. Miss Z says that they were incredibly efficient. On asking one of them, they reported so much oxygen was being used that the current infrastructure couldn't cope and was dangerous.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 14 Jan 21 at 02:30
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I can only hope that people start to wake up what is going on in our soceity.If not we be wearing muzzles keeping distance and not interacting for many years to come.
The vaccines will be a regular item maybe twice a year.God knows what damage is going to happen to many people in the future.
Walking about to today small children with nappies on their faces it is scary.
I hope I am wrong but if people want to be slaves good luck to that.
I won't be taken a vaccine and don't wear a muzzle.Which is neither use nor ornament.
Happy new year to all.
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I rather suspect that you have found throughout your life that most people prefer to keep their dstance from you and not intereact with you.
It's nothing to do with Covid
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Further I suspect that the internet is the only place you can find people that agree with you.
In your case it is a pity that it is not a muzzle. Still, out of respect you ought to wear a "nappy" for the same reason as a baby, help contain all that s***.
Given your level of intelligence, vocabulary and views I suspect that we have Dog to thank for your presence. I do hope we see no more of your group.
>>Happy new year to all.
I do not have the words to tell you how I much misery I wish upon your year.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 14 Jan 21 at 17:47
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What a completely selfish person you are Smurf.
You wont be getting vaccinated you say probably because there is no vaccination for stupid ......
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>> I won't be taken a vaccine and don't wear a muzzle.Which is neither use nor
>> ornament.
>>
>> Happy new year to all.
I'd quite happily provide and tie a plastic bag over your head Smurf. That way you wont catch it and you wont need a vaccination. Perfect solution all round I think, Let me know when you want to avail yourself of my service.
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Thank you for your good wishes Mr Smurf. Happy New Year to you.
I implore you to reconsider your choices, I'm concerned for your health. Over 1,500 deaths were reported as due to COVID just yesterday for the UK. Deaths and serious injury by vaccines are vanishingly rare, and vaccines are what account for the virtual elimination of polio and the eradication of smallpox, amongst other benefits, and for that matter a large part of the increase in average life expectancy.
You are quite correct to think that mask wearing will not necessarily stop you getting COVID, or giving it to somebody else, but it will make it less likely - these precautions work at the population level by reducing the rate of infection and almost certainly reduce the amount of virus transferred even if you do catch it.
I choose to follow guidance wear a mask when out of the house and around people, so slavery doesn't come into it. I hope that by doing so I will make a small contribution to reducing the number of infections, and deaths. Perhaps I have saved one or two lives already as my heart consultant thinks I have already had COVID. Think on that perhaps.
I seriously doubt that the government is deliberately exaggerating the mortality, or wrecking the economy unnecessarily. The government is certainly not making itself more popular by doing so. The evidence that precautions are necessary is in the hospitals. The NHS has practically ground to a halt for normal purposes and there will undoubtedly be extra, consequential, non-COVID deaths.
I do hope you will think seriously about this. I shall be having the vaccine because I am much more likely to experience adverse effects from not doing so - of that I am as near totally certain as makes no difference.
Keep safe and stay well.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 14 Jan 21 at 18:16
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I have to say thats very polite and patient, specially for a man who has been dealing with builders and suppliers
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I read an article today about a nurse's agony watching loving sons and daughters apologising to their dying elderly, vulnerable parents for bringing COVID-19 into their house.
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>> I read an article today about a nurse's agony watching loving sons and daughters apologising
>> to their dying elderly, vulnerable parents for bringing COVID-19 into their house.
That is truly horrible.
Although I'm not living in fear of COVID, we might even have had it, it had already occurred to me that we should probably stay away from the grandchildren and their parents for that reason.
We're prepared to take what we consider a reasonable risk (when permitted of course) but I really wouldn't want my daughter and SiL to think they might have deprived their kids of a grandparent.
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>> I have to say thats very polite and patient, specially for a man who has
>> been dealing with builders and suppliers
I had to take a chill pill earlier. The grisly groundworkers reappeared today, re-employed by my PM, and I got a £14,000 interim invoice from the roofers. It also rained biblically.
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Zero offered to tie a plastic bag over Smurfs head ...begs the question, what colour do Smurfs go when you smother them?
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I think we should insist upon empirical evidence.
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I have no problem with those who decide to put themselves at risk - they can take the consequences.
Not wearing a "nappy" or refusing a vaccine does not elevate them to the status of independent thinking superhero, more inadequate numpty.
But if their actons put others at risk, their status should include selfish and self obsessed. A sort of Trump syndrome - concerned only for oneself and indifferent to the impact upon others.
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Hahaha. Very funny helicopter
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Covid is real. It is fatal to many people including younger people.
You may get mild symptoms (it wiped out a 40 year old fit as a fiddle colleague of mine for 3 weeks). You may get worse symptoms.
There are not the resources in hospital to cope.
My, in her 20's, daughter, who is far, far, far more intelligent than me (bachelor of medicine and bachelor of science (biomedical sciences studied at the same time as her medicine degree), has passed the first exam and OSCE of her specialist choice, tells me it's real.
She comes home horrified at the seemingly needless deaths - over 350 beds in a c500 bed hospital devoted to covid patients. There are no where near enough ITU beds. She's been treating people in ambulances (though that's improved now). For her, this round is better, because she's not directly on ITU and doesn't do nights. Last time, she said all she could see when she closed her eyes were dead bodies and she wasn't the only one.
She only gets full PPE if they are conducting procedures that generate "aerosol".
I know she fights for patients. I know she does everything she can, you can see it on her face when she gets home.
The lockdown is peeing her off, she chose the local hospital to be able to come back and stay with family and friends after being away from home for 9 years and to be able to take weekends away with us, go out for dinners and have sociable fun. She can only be here for one year and sees it all as a sick joke, but whether the lockdown, masks etc. are necessary or not, her answer is simple: Anything, absolutely anything that stands a chance of reducing infection is a good thing.
She would be happy to take deniers around the empty out patients departments to the packed wards where all the action is happening.
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>>She would be happy to take deniers around the empty out patients departments to the packed wards
Oh I think I could work out a more suitable place to take them than that. Like the council dump, for example.
These are people of low intelligence, low responsibility and low potential. I can't imagine that there's much value in keeping them around.
Perhaps them not taking the vaccine and gradually dying out is the best they could do for us.
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On a lighter note...
A local restaurant food supply company has started delivering cooked meals FOC to the staff at local hospital after hearing that several of the catering staff in the canteen were unwell, forcing it to be only available part time. Supplies for patients are unaffected.
Individual meals are delivered in stainless steel containers which are sterilised before being used.
They asked for no press coverage.
There are good people.
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>>over 350 beds in a c500 bed hospital devoted to covid patients
That is a hell of a statistic. I wonder how the deniers account for it?
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 14 Jan 21 at 19:30
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The deniers are essentially uneducated and of low intelligence. They enjoy the conspiracy groups because it makes them feel part of something. And in reality they are an irritation but of no real danger.
The danger is not the deniers, it is those behind the deniers. Those that have placed themselves within the conspiracy group and promote the conspiracy as a way of keeping their minions in line and then manipulating them for their own motivations.
Those people, unpleasant though they are, are far less stupid, often educated and well aware of reality and what they are doing with it and are experts in manipulation.
Not so different to priests within the church in the Middle Ages and for very similar reasons. Also very similar to cult leaders of the last 50 years.
Attacking their minions who merely regurgitate whatever they are fed, though I confess I do it all the time, is merely a matter of emotional stress relief and will never achieve anything. They do not have the wit to understand your arguments. If they did they wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for the conspiracy theory in the first place. They are believing something that they very much want to believe, and they want to be part of the group that believes it. It matters not whether what they believe is ridiculous or not, they follow blindly without the need to question.
The unbearable irony being that if you disagree with a minion, then they regard you as a mug, a sheep or a victim for believing someone else. They do not accept the idea that you have worked out what to believe all by yourself without blindly following someone, through your own thoughts, reasoning and learnings because that is an approach that not only they are not capable of, it does not even occur to them as a possibility.
It is those behind the minions that we really need to worry about. And identifying them would be a good start.
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Their arguments are very scripted and if you start to make a hole in them the only thing they can reply with is abuse. Which indicates low intellect.
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Deniers.
My niece in her late 20s has some mental health history. She has turned into a full on denier, its all a lie, its reset, its conspiracy etc. Her mum is a nurse in a hospice. Her aunt (my wife) is a nurse in a hospice. Also in the family are GPs, scientists and laborartory staff.
Everything we say is wrong and lies. We have all been deleted, one by one, from her Facebbok account as and when anyone has questioned her.
She does not realise that she has not had one single "friend" replying to her posts actually agreeing with her. I asked her where did she think this was all going to go, once we are through the other end does she realise she will have no friends and relatives left who will care about her as she has deliberately alientated them? She never responded but deleted instead.
It is so sad to see, however it is also very interesting to see how it all happens. From originally seeing a random shared conspiracy theory online, she was drawn in by the perpretators of it all and before you know it, she is in the fully gullible category.
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A good friend of mine has turned into not only a conspiracy theorist but also a fervent anti-vaxxer.
Government conspiracy, vaccinations to control the population, Bill Gates' micro chips, illuminati, COVID invented etc. etc. All fervently believed and will listen to nothing which is not supportive.
Since I have known him many years and he was always a good and intelligent man, I can only assume it is some form of illness.
Very sad.
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>> >>over 350 beds in a c500 bed hospital devoted to covid patients
>>
>> That is a hell of a statistic. I wonder how the deniers account for it?
>>
They video hospitals that seem empty and post the videos to youtube. They seem empty because the outpatients dept. is closed, the flower shop, coffee shop is closed, as is the newsagent.
There are no visitors. Staff keep to their wards to keep infection spread to a minimum, save for emergencies.
Just shows how many people visit hospitals in normal times.
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I was listening to LBC this afternoon. Caller after caller ringing in describing how the last time they had seen a loved one was being shipped off in the back of an ambulance and succumbed to the virus in hospital with no loved ones at their sides. Very depressing.
And all they were asking was for people to follow the rules. Not a big ask is it?
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Ignore Smurf and his drivel.
Toyah on the other hand has been doing a bunch of lockdown music videos with her husband Robert Fripp....
(you may need some mindbleach after)
youtu.be/khkKfMotNoI
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>> Ignore Smurf and his drivel.
>>
>> Toyah on the other hand has been doing a bunch of lockdown music videos with
>> her husband Robert Fripp....
>>
>> (you may need some mindbleach after)
Its a mystery
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I Want To Be Free
They are love, they are.
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'She isn't wearing a bra.'
You sure? :/
Last edited by: Fullchat on Thu 14 Jan 21 at 21:05
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It's either cold in that kitchen or there's a couple of glace cherries been taken out of the pot.
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>> >>over 350 beds in a c500 bed hospital devoted to covid patients
>>
>> That is a hell of a statistic. I wonder how the deniers account for it?
The cystology unit is being repurposed, hi flo oxygen works were going on there earlier this week, my next treatment is back in the attached private hospital.
Free parking - nice seats in the waiting area, background music, Every Cloud and all that (tho I wont be able to avail myself of the free coffee alas)
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Miss Z got home at 06:45.
She left for work @7:30 yesterday. She got a few hours sleep at the hospital.
Never has she seen it so bad.
It’s basic triage yesterday. People that would normally survive are not being helped at all.
She says she tried to help a man in his 40s but he didn’t make it.
If there was a bed in ITU she is convinced he would have.
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 15 Jan 21 at 08:18
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I think smurf got what he really wanted.
Lots of attention!
Last edited by: maltrap on Fri 15 Jan 21 at 08:49
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Several friends are hospital consultants. All weary, all saying the winter has exacerbated the situation (as we were told to expect by the Government in March last year). I knew four people who died in the week after New Year. All in hospital for other things but got Covid and never came home despite being in recovery from their illnesses. It was a sad week, particularly for their families who were not able to be with them in the final hours.
It's real. Friends are now being very careful, not even going out for a walk with someone else, just on their own or with their spouse.
Hopefully it seems that the numbers are starting to fall, as vaccinations are increasing, the R-number is reducing and the scientists now agree that having had the virus gives you a decent period of immunity, so we are closing in (slowly) on herd immunity. Probably 10% of the population has had the virus or been inoculated now and that number is increasing daily.
Hang on in there!
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Getting my house built - can I be compliant? - Manatee
