Debate so far has been in Brexit thread but now it's hotting up.....
So 'Turnip' Raab has been eliminated and Rory Stewart survives to next round. Guardian reckons he might now have a route through to final two but that Boris's campaign might lend votes to stall his progress. What do we think will happen next?
Meanwhile there's a scurrilous internet meme doing rounds with picture of Margaret Thatcher on one of the many occasions she met Jimmy Savile.
The caption suggests Savile's words are 'Don't worry babe I'll stick by you. Let's call him Boris'.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 18 Jun 19 at 19:24
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When Radio 4 news reported..."Dominic Raab has been knocked out" I nearly dropped my takeaway pizza
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>>The caption suggests Savile's words are 'Don't worry babe I'll stick by you. Let's call him Boris'.
coffee, screen & keyboard.
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"Rory Stewart survives to next round..."
A gnome in a suit.
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Voice in the wilderness though
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I lost interest in Saj tonight. I thought it a shame that Gove took the opportunity to score a few party points, that wasn't the idea.
I thought it a bit daft to ask the questioners whether they'd heard what they wanted to, especially the climate change one.
I thought Emily was a little unfair on Boris (at least) twice, when she tried to corner him by quoting past comments he'd made but didn't do the same to the others.
Despite not wanting to shut up occasionally, Boris got away without saying too much of any real importance. All part of his cunning plan no doubt. The others have it to prove, as far as he's concerned.
It would now be between Gove and Hunt for me, with Gove taking a slight edge but only slight.
I liked Rory as someone who challenged the big guns (and that would be why he's turning out popular with the public, if he is) and I thought he made some good points. Maybe next time for him though.
But I expect it will be Boris.
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>> Voice in the wilderness though
Rory's had it I fear. The other three vying for second place all went for him when they got the chance, and if a dozen or two of Boris's spare supporters vote tactically for Javid next time Rory will be gone. Boris won't want him as a rival either - a Boris-alike on policy, with less charisma, is what he needs as a rival rather than a differentiated anti-Boris candidate.
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Stewart out of the race.
Gove 51
Hunt 54
Javid 38
Johnson 143
Stewart 27
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Gove+Hunt+Javid = 143 votes. If they could agree to pool their votes and let one of their number go through, and manage to collar some of Rory's former supporters, they could beat Boris.
Could that work?
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. Johnson will be in the top two whatever happens and so will go forward to membership election which he will certainly win
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>> Gove+Hunt+Javid = 143 votes. If they could agree to pool their votes and let one
>> of their number go through, and manage to collar some of Rory's former supporters, they
>> could beat Boris.
>>
>> Could that work?
In any case, some of the votes of whichever two dropped out would go to Bozo. I am disgusted with the MPs voting for Johnson, whose credentials as a serial casual liar are well established.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 20 Jun 19 at 10:39
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But why? What is his attraction?
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>> But why? What is his attraction?
He's seen as being only one, or at least best bet, for winning an election.
Not about the country, it's about the future of the Conservative Party.
As of course was the kick off for this farrago, Cameron's referendum.
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Self-serving turds will usually side with the winner.
Helps get a plum job in the cabinet.
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>> Self-serving turds will usually side with the winner.
To describe the tory party as a toilet bowl is a little unfair.
To the ceramic sanitary ware industry. Toilet bowls are useful.
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It's also totally congruent with how the Conservative party works and what it's for, which is the self-interest of those with money and power at the expense of the majority, to which just enough is allowed to trickle down to keep sufficient of them voting the right way:)
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Congruent?
That's a new word for me.
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Surely you spent a good deal of time at maths homework trying to prove triangles were congruent? Not quite sure why though.
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>> But why? What is his attraction?
>>
From doing some reading he's seen as the only person to get a better deal in terms of the WA. May is seen by many Con members as weak and incompetent. The general election angle is a bit further down the list, albeit still there.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 20 Jun 19 at 12:25
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>> whose credentials as a serial casual liar are well established.
Doesn't that apply to most other politicians too?
I must be in a minority of people happy for BoJo to become PM (I said so a long time ago too), and hopefully he can sort out Brexit and put it to bed once and for all.
Other clowns have tried and failed. Why not let this clown have a go?
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Well that's the thing - I don't think you are in a minority!
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>> Well that's the thing - I don't think you are in a minority!
>>
In terms of honesty, competence and consideration for the country rather than self, he is sadly no worse than most of the rest of his parliamentary colleagues, of any party.
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Then there were three. Javid has just been knocked out. Who's going into the final round with Boris, I'd say Hunt. Very tight though only two votes in it. Strangely there were two spoilt papers.
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So Johnson will win easily. Will not be able to renegotiate withdrawal agreement before end of October, will not be prepared to leave with no deal at the end of the day as would e an economic catastrophe and we then have a General Election.
This is a never ending saga.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 20 Jun 19 at 20:39
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>> So Johnson will win easily. Will not be able to renegotiate withdrawal agreement before end
>> of October, will not be prepared to leave with no deal at the end of
>> the day as would e an economic catastrophe and we then have a General Election.
>>
>> This is a never ending saga.
>>
....probably not.
There is going to be a point, and I'm not sure that we haven't reached it, where the EU run out of patience *
At that point, it won't matter one jot whether no deal is unpalatable; there will be no opportunity for further extension and, if Boris has pursued such an option, at the end of the current period it will be "s*** and get off the pot time", with either crash out or revoke as being the only likely options. (Theresa's deal may also still be made graciously available by the EU, but the "backstop" amongst other things would make that as unpalatable as no deal, but the latter is already legislated for as the default, whereas the former would need to actively win a Parliamentary vote).
So, no deal or revoke, then. Which do you think Boris could support? ;-)
* Having granted the last extension only to see the UK ruling party p*** the extra time away having an entirely Eurosceptic leadership election whilst (at least visibly) spending no time whatsoever on handling the practicalities of the way forward, I think we've used up any residual sympathy we might once have had. Given Boris's stance and past actions, I can't see the EU being empathetic on a personal level either.
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So, no deal or revoke, then. Which do you think Boris could support? ;-)
Doesnt matter what Johnson would support. There is no majority in the Commons for No Deal . That's the whole problem. We will end up with a General Election fought on that point.
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>> So, no deal or revoke, then. Which do you think Boris could support? ;-)
>>
>> Doesnt matter what Johnson would support. There is no majority in the Commons for No
>> Deal . That's the whole problem. We will end up with a General Election fought
>> on that point.
Boris is probably the only politician who could do a U-turn and become a Remainer when it goes belly-up. Why should we believe him when he promises to leave on Hallowe'en?
Nothing would surprise me. But I agree a GE looks short odds.
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>> Boris is probably the only politician who could do a U-turn and become a Remainer
>> when it goes belly-up. Why should we believe him when he promises to leave on
>> Hallowe'en?
Given he's already done a U-turn from remain to leave, that is entirely possible.
A part of me has a grudging like for Boris (the man, not the politician), not least because his accent and bumbling mannerisms remind me so much of a sadly departed old friend ("Sorry old boy, I seem to have come out without my wallet - would you mind awfully picking this one up?", and the same ability to dodge the fallout from howling former errors or poor choices), but who knows what he actually believes, or what he stands for, apart from Boris Johnson?
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>> Doesnt matter what Johnson would support. There is no majority in the Commons for No
>> Deal .
AIUI, there doesn't have to be - it is still the default position already legislated for.
In order to avoid it, there would have to be a majority in the Commons to revoke/block that legislation - it has been attempted and failed several times (though that might, of course, be a matter of brinkmanship).
So, if the EU's patience is exhausted, and Boris runs the decision to the wire on or near the 31st October without (as has happened to date) the EU then granting a further extension, will this cause a change of Commons heart, and can such a process happen in time to avoid the choices I've set out?
If Boris is really up for a no deal, it will take some change from what has happened to date to stop him, and there are some real, practical time-constraints.
(And of course, deal or no deal, this is only the start of the shenanigans - the fall out from either of those decisions is going to continue to tie up Parliament and the Civil Service for years to come).
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>> So Johnson will win easily. Will not be able to renegotiate withdrawal agreement before end
>> of October, will not be prepared to leave with no deal at the end of
>> the day
If he is elected, then goes to the wire and fails to live up to his "we will leave with no deal if required" promise he is toast. A complete rack of toast.
HE is toast as a world leader, because he was found out as a load of hot air with no balls.
He is toast in Europe because he is easy meat
He is toast in the Party for obvious reasons
He is toast in the country for the same reasons.
He HAS to either get a deal by October, or leave with no deal in October. He has painted himself into this corner with no get out plan.
Either way, his longevity at the polls is severely limited. Which is why none of the wise heads in the Tory party stood for election
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 21 Jun 19 at 09:51
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There are wise heads? Could you name them?
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>> There are wise heads? Could you name them?
You have a long list of those who didnt put their names forward.
Hammond for example, he has managed to steer his way through this s***fest with barely a stain on his suit. And he has managed to keep the economy from drowning, tho nothing can stop it floundering.
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>> Either way, his longevity at the polls is severely limited. Which is why none of
>> the wise heads in the Tory party stood for election
It was a poisoned chalice last time. This time it's not only poisoned, he has attached his own bomb to it.
The Eurocrats must be expecting to enjoy this. Something to look forward to after their long summer holiday.
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>> In terms of honesty, competence and consideration for the country rather than self, he is
>> sadly no worse than most of the rest of his parliamentary colleagues, of any party.
I disagree. In terms of honesty, or rather lack of it, Boris is in a class of his own. There are repeated documented examples of him telling blatant untruths. Not just varitions of interpretation but whoppers on a Trumpian scale. Denial of proven facts. OK maybe it's a game with him but those are not games prospective PM's should have form for.
He simply has no idea about detail.
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Not sure where I read it (it may have been here, or linked to) that there is a view that Boris is safer and more controllable if he is PM rather than some Cabinet post.
On this forum there seems t be a general majority dislike for him but I'm told the public at large quite like him. Don't ask the source, it's not reliable!!
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Best that can be said about Boris is he seems to let his team get on with it.
I'm not aware of him throwing anyone under a bus when he effs up either* - he just takes it on the chin and carries on regardless.
* I might be wrong - I don't follow his retarded antics much.
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Just saw on the Andrew Neill programme a theory that some of Boris's supporters voted for Hunt to ensure Boris wasn't up against Gove, who they felt was more of a threat, Boris's team have denied it but the voting numbers indicate there might be something in it.
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Sounds like sour grapes to me. Tactical voting has always been and always will be part of the electoral process.
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...indeed, does the Pope s*** in the woods?
;-)
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Dunno, but I'm pretty sure bears have balconies.
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>> I disagree. In terms of honesty, or rather lack of it, Boris is in a
>> class of his own.
>>
Don't think he is any worse, he simply has an extra taste for publicity, I do not believe there is anything like the quality of senior politician around that there was 20 years ago on either side of the house.
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Lead story in literally every paper.
I suppose the Tory stalwarts in the constituencies will still love him.
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>> I suppose the Tory stalwarts in the constituencies will still love him.
>>
....but will Carrie....?
;-)
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>> ....but will Carrie....?
>>
>> ;-)
Wouldn't be the first time he'd gone back to Marina with his tail between his legs though I hope this time she'd slam the door in his face.
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>>
>> Wouldn't be the first time he'd gone back to Marina with his tail between his
>> legs though I hope this time she'd slam the door in his face.
>>
....good practice for the upcoming (re)negotiations with the EU.......?
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I've had a feeling from the off that Boris isn't the shoe-in that people seem to expect. There's a long way to go and up to last night he has kept a low profile, avoiding interviews and so forth. His politics appear to be made up on the hoof and when he comes under the inevitable scrutiny his contradictions may well catch him out.
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Just goes to show how stupid and inept he is. If you are going for the biggest job in your life, you would think you would keep your recently failed marriage and your tart on the side low key. Nope not bozo johnson
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...yeah, but she was looking at his laptop......
No man should have to endure that (let alone Boris - the mind boggles!)
;-)
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>> ...yeah, but she was looking at his laptop......
>>
>> No man should have to endure that (let alone Boris - the mind boggles!)
I thought he was using her laptop? No?
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...not according to the reports I've read (though I haven't heard the recording.........yet ;-) )
A recording of the incident, on Thursday night, revealed Mr Johnson shouted at Ms Symonds to “get off my f***ing laptop” before a loud crashing noise was heard.
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I wonder if the Guardian set this up in anticipation of some such incident and, if so, how much it paid its informants.
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I see the ex-boyfriend of Johnson's girlfriend is giving interviews with personal details.
What a lovely world we live in.
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I'm sure I remember a time when we used to have a reasonable section of the press who dealt with real news and serious information. We seem to have entered a world where the press is mainly interested in gossip, innuendo, allegations and other things of that type.
Was I naive? Was there ever really a day with some independent, serious news?
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There is no news as such these days, it's managed as entertainment.
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>> I'm sure I remember a time when we used to have a reasonable section of
>> the press who dealt with real news and serious information. We seem to have entered
>> a world where the press is mainly interested in gossip, innuendo, allegations and other things
>> of that type.
When we have a potential PM who is from the world of obsessed self promotion and feeding the gutter press, what do you expect if the shoal of piranha eat one of their own
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>> I'm sure I remember a time when we used to have a reasonable section of
>> the press who dealt with real news and serious information. We seem to have entered
>> a world where the press is mainly interested in gossip, innuendo, allegations and other things
>> of that type.
>>
>>
It's what we want, innit?
Check out the best selling titles.
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Nicola Sturgeon interviewed by Kirsty Wark for Newsnight.
KW asks which of Johnson or Hunt she thinks would be better for Scotland
NS replies that question is like asking her if she'd rather be knocked down by a truck or a bus.....
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>> Its Boris.
Foisted upon us by 0.03% of the electorate.
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Johnson 92153, Hunt 46656.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 23 Jul 19 at 13:13
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>>Foisted upon us by 0.03% of the electorate
Or about 58% of the Tory party.
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Or about 61% of those who voted.
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>> >>Foisted upon us by 0.03% of the electorate
>>
>> Or about 58% of the Tory party.
there are only 125000 of them. 72000 people have foisted Boris Johnson onto a population of 68 million
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 23 Jul 19 at 16:56
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>> >> >>Foisted upon us by 0.03% of the electorate
>> >>
>> >> Or about 58% of the Tory party.
>>
>> there are only 125000 of them. 72000 people have foisted Boris Johnson onto a population
>> of 68 million
>>
Thank goodness the Labour party would never do anything like that!
Oh! Sorry, hang on a sec....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Brown
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Quite right Duncan. And I seem to remember Johnson complaining very loudly about Brown being an unelected PM,saying he should face a general election.
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A Tory on the Beeb 17:30 show said something like there were 40k votes for the other candidate, that's a big enough number that Boris should take notice of, and will need to moderate his stance to keep them onside.
Wasn't there some other vote in the not too distant past which had a much closer result yet the losers were effectively (or actual, in my case) told by the winning side "you lost, suck it up"?
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>>
>> tinyurl.com/queen-elizabeth-moving-to-cana
>>
>> ;-)
Have you read 'In the Wet' by Nevil Shute?
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>> Quite right Duncan. And I seem to remember Johnson complaining very loudly about Brown being
>> an unelected PM,saying he should face a general election.
Indeed. Boris said Gordon Brown had no mandate to govern.
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What would you suggest then? A referendum to choose the PM?
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>> What would you suggest then? A referendum to choose the PM?
No, but everyone knows that people vote for the leader they like at GE time. PM goes, time for a GE After all its what Boris wanted when GB became PM.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 23 Jul 19 at 21:40
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If you believe that we should have an obligatory election for every change in leadership? That would certainly have changed the course of history. I doubt that Churchill would have got the job and perhaps not Lloyd-George or MacMillan either.
The trouble with changing the rules is that there are unintended consequences. Our constitution is messy convoluted and at times illogical but it sort of works. Start meddling with it and there are problems.
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>>The trouble with changing the rules is that there are unintended consequences. Our constitution is messy convoluted and at times illogical but it sort of works. Start meddling with it and there are problems.
I would suggest we now have the proof its not working.
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>> >>The trouble with changing the rules is that there are unintended consequences. Our constitution is
>> messy convoluted and at times illogical but it sort of works. Start meddling with it
>> and there are problems.
>>
>> I would suggest we now have the proof its not working.
>>
As we don't have a written constitution, I am not sure how you would change things.
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What proof? What's not working?
We have a PM, albeit not the one we each may have voted for, but that doesn't mean it isn't working.
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>> What's not working?
A democratically elected parliament utterly incapable of making a functional decision on Brexit.
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Oh, that... :-) I thought Bobby was referencing the PM appointment.
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>> Oh, that... :-) I thought Bobby was referencing the PM appointment.
>>
Well ther you have a PM chosen by party members who does not reflect the opinion of the majority of elected Tory Members of Parliament and almost certainly would not have been their leader of choice.
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I suspect that he doesn't suit many of the Tories who voted for him (because I think many would have been Remainers) but I reckon they thought that the Tories MUST deliver BREXIT to be seen to be truly democratic and regain their credibility, so they voted for the one they considered most likely to make it work.
Or maybe it was more simple - he was one of those that got us in this mess, so let's put him on the spot and see how/if he gets us out of it.
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>> I suspect that he doesn't suit many of the Tories who voted for him (because
>> I think many would have been Remainers)
My take is that the party in the sticks is overwhelmingly leave. It probably has been for some years but there are convincing reports of 'entryism' by former members of UKIP.
If every Remainer had voted for Hunt Johnson would still have won by a substantial margin.
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>> Quite right Duncan. And I seem to remember Johnson complaining very loudly about Brown being
>> an unelected PM,saying he should face a general election.
>>
Johnson is a true hypocrite though!
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>>Johnson is a true hypocrite though!
Hypocrisy in a politician?? Say it ain't so?
Surely you didn't expect it to be any other way? Can you think of or name one that is not?
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But why are politicians so prone to hypocrisy and lying ? Because we as voters do not like the truth. Any politicians who told things as they really are would soon be out on his ear. Despite every lesson of history we demand the impossible and then blame our politicians for not delivering.
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>>But why are politicians so prone to hypocrisy and lying ?
Big question.
I think that a politician wants more than anything else to be a politician. They justify it in a variety of ways, but essentially the end goal is to be a politician.
To achieve that one has to appeal to those you hope will vote for you, which is by it's very nature a subset. Thus one says whatever will appeal the most to the subset in the moment with as little future ramification as possible.
In reality it is the electorate that is the issue, not the politician. The politician will simply respond to whatever metric or opinion driver he is faced by. It is the electorate what decides how to respond to that.
Remember the impact, good and bad, that Cherie Blair's behaviour had on Tony Blair's popularity?
Think of the impact that smoking dope at school 40 years ago has on the political career today?
etc. etc.
It is the same whether one is talking about your children, your employees or your politicians; in all cases they will behave in a manner to appear their best by the metrics that you have set.
It is our fault, but we won't admit it, accept responsibility for it or put any effort into changing it.
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>Despite every lesson of history we demand the impossible and then blame our politicians for not delivering.
Don't you think that politicians build up expectations by promising whatever they think will get them elected knowing full well that they cannot deliver?
Last edited by: Kevin on Tue 23 Jul 19 at 23:46
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Of course they do but a little more critical thinking by the electorate would make them realise the impossibility of the promises.
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>> a little more critical thinking by the electorate would make
>> them realise the impossibility of the promises.
So now you want an electorate in possession of intelligence?
For goodness sake, where will this all end?
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>> For goodness sake, where will this all end?
>>
Trump on Johnson: 'They call him Britain Trump'
US President Donald Trump has congratulated Boris Johnson on winning the race to be next UK prime minister.
Speaking to conservative high school students in Washington, Mr Trump also searched the crowd for Nigel Farage, suggesting the Brexit Party leader would work well with Mr Johnson.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-49090804/trump-on-johnson-they-call-him-britain-trump
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Suprisingly perhaps only 12 out of 24 the changes in Prime Minister over the last 100 years have been after a General Election. There is nothing unconstitutional about it and indeed we don’t technically ever have a direct say in who will be PM. We have (had) a Parliamentary democracy and that is how it should have remained. The chaos we are now facing is a direct result of passing decision making to the electorate via a referendum, something they were ill equipped to do and then compounding the folly by allowing party members to vote for a new leader rather than restricting it to MPs.
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Quite agree. And they seem only to be further compounding the matter with dithering and uncoordinated, unsubstantiated statements still represented as definitive.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 23 Jul 19 at 19:29
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Looks like they'll be practically a brand new cabinet, 14 have resigned or been sacked so far.
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WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING
This has very very offensive language and is about Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson
If you watch this you cant claim you were not warned
vimeo.com/349649184
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So someone reported the post as offensive
< slaps head >
dear lord I tell them the post is offensive, so they click it to see the offensive bits, and then complain about being offended.
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But *without* the balls to actually tell you that they object and to stand by that opinion.
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They should release it as a single and get it to number one.
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>> They should release it as a single and get it to number one.
>>
....they have....and it is.... though it's debatable whether it is single...
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Boris is now showing his Trumpish pomposity character.
quote
The new PM is making changes to lower-ranked jobs, following a radical overhaul of his cabinet on Wednesday.
Mr Johnson also confirmed he would change his own official title to include "minister for the Union"
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 26 Jul 19 at 15:02
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Just a thought, Boris was elected with 92 thousand votes.
Boaty McBoatface was got 124 thousand votes and was rejected for being a very silly idea!
:-)
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Nadine Dories a Minister:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/27/nadine-dorries-mp-joins-department-health-and-social-care
You couldn't make it up unless you were BBD thinking Nadine and Esther Mc Vey as a part of a threesome
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Problem is, the talent pool is not very well stocked in Parliament.
(MPs I mean, not females!)
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You may not be surprised to note that I was one of the circa 93,000 who voted for Boris.
For me, so far he's talked the talk, but I'm not yet sure if he has the bottle to walk the walk.
If he doesn't, it's the Brexit Party for me!
(Puts on tin hat and takes cover from the anti-Brexit majority on this site!)
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Just to be 100% clear. I believe that we should exit the EU and that we should do it as quickly as possible.
That said, what an absolute screw up the whole process is. Everybody from Farage, to Corbyn, to Rees Mogg, to May, to pretty much every front page politician has selfishly and incompetently screwed up the process. They are worthless.
The frustrating thing for me is the behaviour of the politicians, and to a large extend the electorate.
Every one of the main players; Cameron, Johnson, May, Corbyn, et al should hang their heads in shame.
Surely you cannot look at Farage or the Brexit party with any respect or expectation? what thoroughly awful people they are. And they are furthering their own position by misleading you.
In the future, when now is history, these people will be reviled.
Many of those who voted to leave seem to have nothing to say other than to blindly chant leave means leave, push a blind and stupid 'screw the reality approach , and make up silly buzz words and nicknames.
Many of those who voted remain seem intent on only screwing up the process to retain some semblance of remain. They put no more thought into how we could manage remain than the others put into how we could manage leave.
Worthless, selfish, disingenuous hypocritical politicians leading dogmatic, short-sighted and largely unrealistic voters with the flames fanned by the media.
We should never have had a referendum, if we were going to have one it should have been framed properly, in any case I do think that voting for exit was a mistake.
And let's have less of this "the people have spoken" s***e. 17.4m voted leave, 16.1m voted Remain, 13m didn't vote and 19m couldn't vote. So 17.4 m out of 66m have 'spoken'.
However what is done is done and the direction is out.
So let's just b***** get it done.
Leaving in October with a deal is best. Pretty much *any* deal.
Leaving in October with no deal is going to be bad.
Not leaving in October and letting it rumble on will be far worse.
The World, the EU, the UK will all start dealing with reality once it is actually *reality*. However bad it is, it will not be the end point, just a [bad] place to start from. But without that conclusion, without that 'point', things are just going to get worse and worse.
So, how will Boris do? Not well I suspect but we have no choice but to wait and see. Certainly the Brexit party and it's ilk will do nothing towards the process and serve only to hinder anything that is tried.
Right now I'm pretty sure that anything is better than nothing.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 28 Jul 19 at 18:42
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All sound views that are hard to disagree with, let's just get on with it and deal with the grief as it happens.
I think the biggest cost of the three years of Brexit has been that other issues have got squeezed out: crime (particularly knife crime in London), old age care, lack of realisation of the impact of automation/AI etc. on the economy, climate change etc....
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>> I think the biggest cost of the three years of Brexit has been that other
>> issues have got squeezed out: crime (particularly knife crime in London), old age care, lack
>> of realisation of the impact of automation/AI etc. on the economy, climate change etc....
I'm sure I referred volumes back to the 'opportunity cost' of Brexit. You and I might disagree as to the relative priority of issues squeezed out but squeezed they undoubtedly have been.
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.... wait and see.....what a good idea Mark !
Now why didn't I think of that or suggest it...
Oh hang on....
Last edited by: helicopter on Sun 28 Jul 19 at 21:43
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.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 29 Jul 19 at 08:27
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Question for you Mark.
Why does everyone who disagrees with you whine?
I decided not to contribute further to the Brexit thread because I see no point in continuing to put up with your invective and insults.You really seem to be a very bitter man and quite frankly I am too old and
I see from your post above that you are finally starting to accept the reality that has been obvious to most people that we are leaving with or without a deal
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>>
>> I see from your post above that you are finally starting to accept the reality
>> that has been obvious to most people that we are leaving with or without a
>> deal
>>
....there's nothing quite like terminal certainty.......
(actually, Mark has (IMO, somewhat flawed) been advocating a "managed" withdrawal almost since time immemorial. ;-) )
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Last edited by: smokie on Mon 29 Jul 19 at 08:27
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I actually was editing my post when I was timed out to point out that I did agree with a number of your points in your previous post.
I agree that leaving with a deal would be best but do not think it will happen.
I believe we will leave with no deal and I agree that we have to make the best of the situation we are in and get on with it.
I agree that the politicians involved on all sides are self serving with a few honourable exceptions.
I believe you are advocating a' managed withdrawal 'according to Brompt so how would you manage it?
Last edited by: helicopter on Sun 28 Jul 19 at 23:29
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>>I agree that leaving with a deal would be best but do not think it will happen.
I don't see how it can happen unless suddenly Teresa May's plan is accepted. Not only is that unlikely, I cannot see any quick or easy changes to that plan which could cause it to be accepted.
Without that plan, then it is either a delay or no deal. It's a fine line, but I narrowly think that a delay is worse than no deal.
>>that we have to make the best of the situation we are in and get on with it.
Yes we do, but for many people it could be very bad for quite a long time. I think that the exit voters are not being rational about that. I believe that if a better job of defining what "leave" meant had been done, then it could have been delivered by now.
That broad range of what "leave" means to different people, and what they therefore want from "leave" will prevent a deal.
>>I agree that the politicians involved on all sides are self serving with a few honourable exceptions.
Amongst those politicians seen on TV, on newspaper front pages on on Social Media there are no exceptions. Certainly no honourable ones. I don't think we have ever had such a deplorable crowd as we have now.
>>I believe you are advocating a' managed withdrawal 'according to Brompt so how would you manage it?
I am, I always have and I'll explain my thoughts. But it's getting late, it's the first day back to school tomorrow so I have to be up early and there is a large steak and a bottle of red calling me, so I'll answer during the day tomorrow when I have more time.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 29 Jul 19 at 01:31
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>> Amongst those politicians seen on TV, on newspaper front pages on on Social Media there
>> are no exceptions.
I'm intrigued as to why you might think Dominic Grieve and David Lammy should be tarred with the 'no exceptions' brush.
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Grieve is simply a spoiler. He has no ideas himself he simply wants to spoil others without replacing them.
Lammy's class based chip on the shoulder, paranoia with the nasty rich people, blind support in the poor down trodden poor people, constant reference to class etc. etc. are tedious, irritating and grand standing.
Clearly there is less and more worse, but there is no good that I can see.
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>> Grieve is simply a spoiler. He has no ideas himself he simply wants to spoil
>> others without replacing them.
I'd be interested in some expansion on that. He seems to me to be a cerebral 'one nation' Tory with an honestly held view (cf Ken Clarke) that we should stay in EU. He's acted on the latter commitment notwithstanding outrage in his local party. Where is the self interest?
>> Lammy's class based chip on the shoulder, paranoia with the nasty rich people, blind support
>> in the poor down trodden poor people, constant reference to class etc. etc. are tedious,
>> irritating and grand standing.
Labour's roots are as a class based party. If you said the relevance of that faded for a while I might struggle to disagree but right now references to those rich people who are nasty and exploitative seem to me to be on the button.
Report in Guardian today is of 4.5 million in deep poverty:
www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/29/uk-deep-poverty-study-austerity
You may not like Labour politics but I'm not seeing any self interest in Lammy's stance either
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At the end of the day it is so purely opinion that it's pretty much just accepting the differences.
Though I will just pick up on this one thing;
>> You may not like Labour politics
You'd think that, but actually you'd be wrong.
It has been a very long time since the politics of either the Labour party or the Conservative party have suited me. There are parts of both which I think are very important and parts of both which I think are shockingly awful and to be avoided at all cost..
I think I fundamentally do not believe in party politics and would like [idealistically of course] to see a position where we had 650 independent MPs where every movement had to be canvassed across all of them.
Where there was NO party direction. Bring PR into that mix as well and we might be moving towards the sort of Government we need, whether or not it's one we want.
p.s. if it is truly Rich vs. Poor, why do the poor have locks on their doors?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 29 Jul 19 at 14:52
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"why do the poor have locks on their doors?"
To stop the bailiffs taking the telly away.
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Mark, please tone it down a bit and stop getting so personal.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if you don't agree with it.
Ta.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 29 Jul 19 at 08:29
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Yes, Dave, you're right. Sorry. And sorry Helicopter.
Perhaps if you have a moment you'd delete mine of 21:53 and 23:11
I'd appreciate you leaving mine of 01:29 though.
Thank you.
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Apology accepted and no hard feelings Mark.
I quite enjoy a good argument but it is pointless when it decends to the playground invective..so I apologise to you also.
I realise that you are a busy man and understand that you are under all sorts of job pressure so do not feel compe?led to rush into print on your 'managed withdrawal' thoughts.
Enjoy your wine and steak.
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I think the last election will be at the forefront of the current PMs mind when snap elections are mentioned.
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George Carlin selling Brexhit* with some swearies
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFCMhSzeGuA
*well basically anything with smoke'n'mirrors
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 28 Jul 19 at 22:24
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Our beloved leader in 2007....
“It’s the arrogance. It’s the contempt. That’s what gets me. It’s Gordon Brown’s apparent belief that he can just trample on the democratic will of the British people. It’s at moments like this that I think the political world has gone mad, and I am alone in detecting the gigantic fraud.”
“They voted for Anthony Charles Lynton Blair to serve as their leader. They were at no stage invited to vote on whether Gordon Brown should be PM… They voted for Tony, and yet they now get Gordon, and a transition about as democratically proper as the transition from Claudius to Nero. It is a scandal. Why are we all conniving in this stitch-up? This is nothing less than a palace coup… with North Korean servility, the Labour Party has handed power over to the brooding Scottish power-maniac.”
The extraordinary thing is that it looks as thougbh he will now be in 10 Downing Street for three years, and without a mandate from the British people. No one elected Gordon Brown as Prime Minister…”
“Gordon Brown could appease public indignation over that, and secure the democratic mandate he needs, by asking the public to vote at once on him, on the new EU treaty, and on the implications of the devolutionary settlement. Let’s have an election without delay.”
Lets hope he follows his own advice!?
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Tory Leadership - R.P.
