Non-motoring > Train Fares!!! Miscellaneous
Thread Author: zippy Replies: 40
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 Tue 12 Dec 17 08:33 
 Train Fares!!! - zippy
I need to be in Birmingham for 9:00AM on Friday. It's a short notice thing and given the weather, I thought why not let the train take the strain!

By road the journey is 196 miles (each way).

The train fare is £256!!!! I suppose it's premium because it crosses London at rush hour but that's a ridiculous price!
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 Tue 12 Dec 17 08:45 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero

>> The train fare is £256!!!! I suppose it's premium because it crosses London at rush
>> hour but that's a ridiculous price!

Its premium because its short notice.
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 Tue 12 Dec 17 08:46 
 Train Fares!!! - Falkirk Bairn
Break up the journey.

Return to London, return from London to xxx, return from xxx to Birmingham.
I know it is a through train as you said but by breaking the journey into steps (the train must stop) you can sve money.

I wanted to go from Falkirk to York via Edinburgh - cost a fortune. Day return to Edinburgh & there was a Special Fare to York for 1 month - saved about 60%.
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 Tue 12 Dec 17 08:50 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero
I don't know your departure location, but lets say Haywards Heath.

I could book that journey Arriving at Birmingham new Street at 09:05. Leaving at 17:05 for 106 quid return for Friday.
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 Tue 12 Dec 17 08:50 
 Train Fares!!! - Bromptonaut
Where (roughly) are you starting from?

Probably best deal will be your local train operator to London, PAYG with Oyster or debit card on tube, then best deal from either Euston or Marylebone to Brum. As of now there's an £9 advance fare available on the 07:23 Virgin service from Euston - arrives 9:05.

Thought the offers were thin on ground for what's normally a 3* hourly service. They've got industrial action on 15/12.

www.virgintrains.co.uk/strike
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 12 Dec 17 at 08:51
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 Tue 12 Dec 17 08:58 
 Train Fares!!! - martin aston
Have you tried a split ticket website? It will automatically do what some of the other posters have suggested and split your ticket up into cheaper legs even if you stay on the same train for the bulk of the journey.
Last edited by: martin aston on Tue 12 Dec 17 at 08:59
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 Tue 12 Dec 17 11:31 
 Train Fares!!! - Duncan
Train Line Best Fare Finder:-

www.thetrainline.com/farefinder/
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 Tue 12 Dec 17 16:07 
 Train Fares!!! - zippy
Thanks all. Got it down to £160ish!
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 Tue 12 Dec 17 18:12 
 Train Fares!!! - sooty123
Reminds me, a family member travelling down to Cornwall from Yorkshire, they looked at travelling down by train in the new year midweek. The cost was something like £140 each, then looked at flying worked out at £40 odd each, plus of course it was about 6 hours faster.
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 08:17 
 Train Fares!!! - DP
It's official, we have the most expensive train fares per mile in Europe at 50p a mile, more than 50% more expensive than second placed Austria, and there's an across-the-board 3.4% rise coming in January, too.

vouchercloud.com/train_prices_across_europe_final_map.jpg

I remember walking a Dutch colleague from our Baker St office to Euston station a few years ago to help him get a one way ticket to Harrogate, where he was meeting his boss. The look of blank shock on his face when told the fare would be £120 was priceless, as was his response to the ticket desk lady. "I'm sorry, I know I have an accent, but I said one way to Harrogate, not a return to Narnia!"

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 Wed 13 Dec 17 08:46 
 Train Fares!!! - Duncan
>> I remember walking a Dutch colleague from our Baker St office to Euston station a
>> few years ago to help him get a one way ticket to Harrogate, where he
>> was meeting his boss. The look of blank shock on his face when told the
>> fare would be £120 was priceless, as was his response to the ticket desk lady.
>> "I'm sorry, I know I have an accent, but I said one way to Harrogate,
>> not a return to Narnia!"


And the moral of the story is?.........

All together now.........

Buy your tickets in advance* Not on the day of travel.

* If at all possible, of course.
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 10:53 
 Train Fares!!! - DP
>>
>> And the moral of the story is?.........
>>
>> All together now.........
>>
>> Buy your tickets in advance* Not on the day of travel.
>>
>> * If at all possible, of course.
>>

In this case, it wasn't possible.

The extortionate financial penalties imposed for impromptu use are a serious problem, and they need to be resolved before the train becomes a serious prospect for many journeys. That, and a simplified ticketing system that doesn't offer you multiple ways to buy tickets for the same journey at wildly varying prices.

I made the mistake of travelling to Birmingham by train for business a few weeks ago, travelling up on a Sunday and back on the Monday evening. I will never repeat it. If I go into Central London, I will always take the train because the alternatives are worse. For everything else however, there is the car, or air travel.

So many aspects of the way the rail network in the UK operates, from the fare structure and cost to the complete lack of accountability from any one individual or company, are indefensible. Yet, we still pay up like good little people and put up with it because in many cases people have no choice. When the upcoming 'above RPI' fare increases bite in January, and push some popular season ticket prices beyond £10,000 for the first time, people will mutter and moan, the pressure groups will wheel out the usual spokespeople to go on the news saying how it's all jolly unfair, and just not right, a government minister will make some excuse about funding record investment, and then it will be business as usual until the same time (and thing) next year.

We get what we deserve in this country.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 13 Dec 17 at 10:54
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 10:58 
 Train Fares!!! - Manatee
Should we vote Labour to get the railways nationalised?

If they were, would they be better/cheaper?
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 11:03 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero
The railways were APPALLING when they were nationalised.
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 11:41 
 Train Fares!!! - Manatee
>> The railways were APPALLING when they were nationalised.

That's true, but they were knackered after the war when they were nationalised.

Railtrack didn't last long, and the railroad is effectively nationalised anyway. A fair chunk of train services is not run by the UK government but by companies owned by e.g. DB and SNCF, who are state owned by other countries and presumably run them at a profit, subsidised by the UK government.

To go to London I use either Chiltern (DB) or London Midland (a minority SNCF JV). London Midland is in the process of being replaced by West Midlands Trains, A JV between Abellio (Dutch state owned), Japan East Railway Company, and Mitsui.

Whether this is good or bad, I don't know. On the plus side, the costs to the UK government can be fixed for several years at a time by transferring risk to the TOCs. On the minus side, there is a considerable overhead in awarding the franchises and in running the contracts; and the TOCs costs include financing expensive private capital and debt.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 13 Dec 17 at 11:43
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 11:59 
 Train Fares!!! - DP
If the six "top tier" rail networks in the 2017 European Railway Performance Index are a guide, state ownership has a lot going for it. The top six performing European railway networks according to this report are those of Switzerland, Denmark, Finland, ­Germany, Austria, Sweden, and France.

Every single one of them, without exception, is either state owned and operated, or owned and operated by companies in which the state is a majority, or sole shareholder. I fully accept that successive British governments have proven themselves incapable of running the railways, but this would appear to be down to the incompetence of our politicians rather than an issue with state ownership itself. The examples above are strong evidence that state ownership can, and does, deliver world class rail networks in other countries.

The current British system of disjointed, fragmented multiple private franchisees all blaming the government for their woes, and government in turn blaming the franchisees for inefficiency and mismanagement, all while the travelling public have to grin and bear it, is pretty appalling. Put it all under one state controlled company, with the transport secretary and the management team personally accountable (the bit we always do wrong in this country), and take the internal bun-fighting out of the equation.

That said, you can see why all sides are currently happy for the status quo to prevail.

EDIT: UK network specifically marked down for punctuality and high fares. Otherwise did reasonably well.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 13 Dec 17 at 12:03
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 13:02 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero

>> The examples above are strong evidence that state ownership can,
>> and does, deliver world class rail networks in other countries.

This is not other countries. This is the UK where nationalisation does not mean investment or partnership with users and workers, but pandering to unions who want political control, maximum wages and minimum work.

More investment has been poured into the network and the services than any time since the big 4 were in their heyday in the 20's and 30's. Money pouring in in part to make up for the lack of investment when hey were nationalised.

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 Wed 13 Dec 17 11:25 
 Train Fares!!! - Robin O'Reliant
>> Should we vote Labour to get the railways nationalised?
>>
>> If they were, would they be better/cheaper?
>>
Back in the early seventies I used to commute from Ilford to Gidea Park, one stop beyond Romford. I well remember the fare being 35p one way, checking an inflation calculator that would equate to £4.20 today. Looking at the ticket prices online it is now £3.70, for what is almost certainly a better service. Like Zeddo, I have less than fond memories of the nationalised railways, the service was terrible.

Those who hanker for nationalisation are almost certain to be too young to remember what it used to be like and would be in for a nasty shock were it to return. Railtrack is already in public ownership, and as I understand it that is where most of the problems are caused on the system, the train operators generally doing a decent job.

Of course I speak as a non user, perhaps someone who does use trains regularly could enlighten me?

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 Wed 13 Dec 17 11:40 
 Train Fares!!! - movilogo
Unless I am travelling for work (where I can claim the train fare) I always avoid trains.

If 2 or more people are travelling, then train is always more expensive than driving.

Now coming to the question, whether nationalization would reduce rail fare, I doubt it would.

Network Rail is still owned by government. TfL is also owned by government.

Without seeing a breakdown down railway operating cost, it is difficult to comment whether nationalization would reduce cost.

I understand TfL gets subsidy from govt which keeps fare reasonable within London. Do the other parts of country get similar subsidy?

The compensation culture (i.e. train is delayed) is also a reason for high train fare.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/16/trains-too-expensive-transport-problem-subsidies-london
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 12:34 
 Train Fares!!! - smokie
"If 2 or more people are travelling, then train is always more expensive than driving."

That's not always the case, if you take into account saver tickets (e.g. off peak, 3 for 2, advance purchase), parking costs, senior/student railcards, and especially if you add in your car "wear and tear" costs.

We occasionally use the train when going into London from Berkshire for pleasure, especially if I am likely to be having a drink.

The car is almost always more convenient though, wherever we're heading.
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 21:23 
 Train Fares!!! - Bobby
Re Nationalisation, the world has moved on in the last few decades.

Do not use union driven problems from those times as reasons why things wouldn’t work now.
It would be the same managers and staff in a nationalised set up.

I would also nationalise utilities. No one can convince me that a multitude of utility companies with their own CEOs, call centres, HR depts etc can provide a cheaper and better product than one nationalised company.
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 21:52 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero
>> Do not use union driven problems from those times as reasons why things wouldn’t work
>> now.
>> It would be the same managers and staff in a nationalised set up.

BUt it would be a labour government, a Corbyn one. Southern and two years of strike action ring any bells with you? The unioons have not moved on. Corbyn has not moved on, the left wing of the labour party have not moved on.

>> I would also nationalise utilities. No one can convince me that a multitude of utility
>> companies with their own CEOs, call centres, HR depts etc can provide a cheaper and
>> better product than one nationalised company.

You'd soon be whining if the management of your water and utilities was in London.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 13 Dec 17 at 21:56
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:08 
 Train Fares!!! - Bromptonaut

>> BUt it would be a labour government, a Corbyn one. Southern and two years of
>> strike action ring any bells with you?

Like removal of 'guards' and driver controlled doors?

You have, IIRC, pointed out for yourself the difficulties of multiple train mounted fish eye lenses in poor light on curved platforms rendered on one display v tube and similar OMO set ups with full lighting, straight platforms and external CCTV feeding HD monitors. .
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:13 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero

>> Like removal of 'guards' and driver controlled doors?
>>
>> You have, IIRC, pointed out for yourself the difficulties of multiple train mounted fish eye
>> lenses in poor light on curved platforms rendered on one display v tube and similar
>> OMO set ups with full lighting, straight platforms and external CCTV feeding HD monitors. .

So striking is the way to resolve it?
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:19 
 Train Fares!!! - Bromptonaut
>> So striking is the way to resolve it?

Intransigent employer governed by, as of today, Chris Grayling. A minister who was, without doubt, the worst Lord Chancellor in recent history and no more capable in a much less complex role.

What else do you suggest?
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:21 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero
>> What else do you suggest?

See? even you cant push the safety issue properly, its a political dispute to you as well. Nuff said
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 14 Dec 17 at 01:52
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:29 
 Train Fares!!! - Bromptonaut
>> See? even you cant push the safety issue properly, its a political dispute to you
>> as well. Nuff said

You're doing the Pat thing of responding to most recent post rather than longer argument.

I'd pointed out above difficulty of vehicle mounted wide angle cameras in poor light on rural platforms v model of underground etc with bright lights and static cameras.
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:00 
 Train Fares!!! - Bromptonaut
>> Re Nationalisation, the world has moved on in the last few decades.
>>
>> Do not use union driven problems from those times as reasons why things wouldn’t work
>> now.

Spot on. I don't accept Zero's portrayal of the BR era, never mind that we'd revert to that if we re-nationalised today.

The East Coast line has had two periods where, after franchisee 'handed in the keys' it operated under direct state control. In neither case did the Unions secure hegemony; the railway fulfilled its commitments and paid more back than with a private sector franchisee in the mix. IIRC same applied when Connex were displaced as a South of London commuter franchise.

Yesterday was third day of operation of the new London North Western franchise for the commuter routes out of Euston. Not covering themselves in glory with multiple evening cancellations and staff who'd not got they're announcements and priorities sorted.
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:07 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero
>> Spot on. I don't accept Zero's portrayal of the BR era,

You know nothing of it
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 13 Dec 17 at 22:08
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:12 
 Train Fares!!! - Bromptonaut
Really?

I spent hours travelling from London Termini and locally across England and Wales from 1978 and onward into privatisation era. And know nothing.

You need to adjust your perceptions.
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:19 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero
>> You need to adjust your perceptions.

As the son of a train driver, and commuting on BR 10 years before you, my perceptions have better credentials than yours.

As a worker in the ultimate nationalised institution you would have a coloured perception
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 14 Dec 17 at 01:53
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:09 
 Train Fares!!! - No FM2R
>> In neither case did the Unions secure hegemony

Did they try? Presumably not, what with them being reformed and modern and everything.
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 Wed 13 Dec 17 22:11 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero

>> The East Coast line has had two periods where, after franchisee 'handed in the keys'
>> it operated under direct state control.

It did not "operate under state control" It was an autonomous place holder. Had no investment plan or budget, no future planning, merely "caretaking"
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 Thu 14 Dec 17 07:18 
 Train Fares!!! - sooty123
What is the way forward for the trains or is it more of the same?

I ask that as someone with no dog in this particular fight. Only a very casual user of trains, I think the last time I used one was summer '16 for about 15 mins.
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 Thu 14 Dec 17 07:50 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero
>> What is the way forward for the trains or is it more of the same?

As much of it is shared, and its a national asset, the infrastructure must remain as a single entity. It requires enormous funding just for maintenance, let alone upgrading. The future planning should be done by the board of Network Rail, a board that consists of heads of Train Operating Companies, Heads of Civil Engineer contractors, HM Inspector of Railways (so by proxy the ORR) and the transport minister.

The franchising fee model is currently run as a tax collecting operation, so needs to be changed. Franchises should be fixed term as they are now, bid for as they are now, but the franchise fee should go direct to Network Rail to meet upgrading and expansion. They set the franchise fee.
Access charges should be based on maintenance miles. Refunds by rail track for poor performance should be abolished because having a board seat, the heads of the TOCs are also responsible for the failure.

Network rail should also be responsible for a single ticketing system, one that allows punters a choice of operator on shared routes, in effect an automatic split ticket system/operator preference.

TOCs and the train leasing companies should remain as is. Except, foreign investment/ownership limited to 40%
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      1  
 Thu 14 Dec 17 20:38 
 Train Fares!!! - sooty123
>> >> What is the way forward for the trains or is it more of the
>> same?
>>
>> As much of it is shared...


Thanks, some interesting ideas.
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 Thu 14 Dec 17 07:24 
 Train Fares!!! - hjd
I know the man who ran Directly Operated Railways. A railwayman all his life, he writes often on the subject in railway journals. He was working within specific constraints and for a limited time but his results were good.
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 Thu 14 Dec 17 07:54 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero
For blatantly personal reasons, and for those interested in railways, allow me to plug my latest video. Its a cracker he says modestly

www.youtube.com/watch?v=voIkm5pjNoQ
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 Thu 14 Dec 17 08:15 
 Train Fares!!! - Duncan
>> For blatantly personal reasons, and for those interested in railways, allow me to plug my
>> latest video. Its a cracker he says modestly

Beautiful brickwork!

Yes, I agree, there is a very gradual, almost imperceptible, improvement in the quality.

Have you filmed Brunel's arch at Maidenhead?
Last edited by: Duncan on Thu 14 Dec 17 at 08:17
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 Thu 14 Dec 17 08:44 
 Train Fares!!! - Zero
I have photographed it, and admired it*, but as a video location its a waste of effort.

*Before the overhead line equipment went up and ruined it.
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 Thu 14 Dec 17 21:23 
 Train Fares!!! - legacylad
Ever travelled on the Settle - Carlisle line anyone? One a day with views it’s rather grand. Ribblehead viaduct is impressive and I have a large print of a photo taken by a deceased friend of a double headed steamer heading North with a snow capped Ingleborough in the background.
Nice part of the world and I’m fortunate to only live a few miles away.
ps. Don’t go in the Station Inn at Ribblehead. It sucks. It’s on the locals “don’t go there” List.
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