Non-motoring > Missing Argentinian submarine.	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Old Navy	Replies: 152

Sun 19 Nov 17 17:49   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

From CRV thread in motoring. See below. www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=25101&m=553409#553409 Thanks ON. Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 19 Nov 17 at 18:37 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 19 Nov 17 18:42   Missing Argentinian submarine. - zippy

Very difficult to find the right words. Hoping against hope that it's good news at the end of the day. One consolation, is that nations, even old adversaries, seem to pull together in situations like this. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 19 Nov 17 18:56   Missing Argentinian submarine. - R.P.

Some footage on the evening news - showed the boat on the surface, must be one hell of a bumpy ride for those on board in those conditions Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 19 Nov 17 19:05   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

>> One consolation, is that nations, even old adversaries, seem to pull together in situations like this. >> I knew the guys who sank the Belgrano. In a war situation submariners would kill each other given a chance. In peacetime any submarine in trouble gets all the help possible from anyone with the kit to help. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 20 Nov 17 15:06   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

edition.cnn.com/2017/11/20/americas/argentina-submarine-what-we-know/index.html Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 20 Nov 17 16:12   Missing Argentinian submarine. - smokie

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42055676 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 20 Nov 17 16:43   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Mechanical breakdown covers a multitude of possibilities. One of the worst case ones is a battery explosion. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 20 Nov 17 19:14   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

>> Mechanical breakdown covers a multitude of possibilities. And outcomes from no ice in the officers gin to everyone dead Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 20 Nov 17 16:45   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Mechanical breakdown covers a multitude of possibilities. One of the worst case ones is a battery explosion, diesel submarines have huge batteries which can produce a lot of hydrogen if not managed well. Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 20 Nov 17 at 16:46 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 21 Nov 17 09:56   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

They are saying on the news here that the failed satellite calls were *not* from the submarine. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 21 Nov 17 12:39   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Yes, that is in the news media here, nor was the "knocking" that was heard. Which I dismissed as highly unlikely when I heard this on the news. All you would need is a microphone (hydrophone) in the water but it would have to be very close to the submarine. Another problem they have is the bad weather, this increases the ambient noise in the sea and dramatically reduces detection ranges for this type of equipment. Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 21 Nov 17 at 12:41 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 21 Nov 17 13:43   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

>> dramatically reduces detection ranges for this type of >> equipment. >> The Argentinians have a poor record for submarine detection..... Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 21 Nov 17 16:02   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Cliff Pope

>> >> The Argentinians have a poor record for submarine detection..... >> So do the Swedes. I recall an incident a while ago when they failed to detect a spying Russian submarine in their waters. The excuse was that pop music had destroyed the hearing ability of a generation of young naval ratings. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 21 Nov 17 21:20   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

The video in the link of the weather conditions in the search area shows that there is no chance of using any rescue equipment. I think the search is now a PR job. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5105015/Argentinian-politicians-brand-British-Navy-pirates.html Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 22 Nov 17 14:50   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

There are unconfirmed reports here that possibly a "signal" from the sub has been detected in a slightly different area. It seems to be a bit North of where they were focussed before, as well as I can make out. At the same time it is being reported that the Americans detected a heat signal in roughly the same place, 70m below the surface. They are also reporting that the oxygen is just about gone. The Argentine Ministry refused to confirm anything I can tell you nothing about the credibility of this beyond the fact that it is being reported. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 22 Nov 17 15:19   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

I saw that in the media here, there was a "May" caveat on the reports. My thoughts are still that unfortunately this will not end well. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 22 Nov 17 22:33   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

For No FM2R You may not have seen this. news.sky.com/story/submarine-hunt-raf-plane-back-on-argentine-soil-for-first-time-since-falklands-11139053 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 22 Nov 17 22:42   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Or this. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5108739/Hopes-fade-finding-crew-alive-missing-submarine.html Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 15:33   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

No i hadn't seen those, thank you. On the radio this morning was a report that an explosion had been detected a few days ago in the appropriate area. Is it likely, I know it's possible, that the thing exploded? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 15:35   Missing Argentinian submarine. - R.P.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5111129/Has-missing-submarine-located-Navy-spots-object.html Daily Mail carrying that story now. Doubt whether an explosion would have anything other than an unhappy ending. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 15:48   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

They had reported battery problems, a short was mentioned but that might be media spin. Diesel submarines have huge lead acid batteries but you would need a lot of hydrogen caused by overcharging to cause a battery explosion. This normally happens in harbour with the diesels running and doing an equalising charge, all the hatches would be open to draw air through the boat. Our submarines have hydrogen clearance fans to ventilate the battery tanks, ( the batteries are in watertight tanks with ventilation). Sea water and battery acid is not good, the gas produced is lethal. Obviously any weapons could cause an explosion but is unlikely but it happened in the Kursk..... Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 15:55   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

I have just read the DM link, this sounds like the way the Americans located the area that the USS Scorpion was lost in. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 15:57   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

As an aside I did notice that an earlier Daily Mail article had a Google mis-translation of a particular term! The Argentine Navy has confirmed that two different sources, one US and one UN, have confirmed that there was an explosion. The suggestion is that this would explain why none of the emergency facilities/options appear to have been used. They also said, and I guess this would make more sense to you than to me, that if it had been an implosion this would explain why no debris had been found. The tone of the announcements has become markedly more pessimistic. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 16:06   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

How deep is it where it was lost? if its lost propulsion, and the ability to manage buoyancy, its could;d have slipped to the bottom, and if its deep enough imploded. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 16:16   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

Bearing in mind that I know nothing about this, and I am just translating the Argentine media. If it is anywhere near its planned route than it should be able to survive sitting on the ocean floor. It didn't say how far off its route it would have to be to get to dangerous depths. It can stand upto 600m, and around there it is not that deep. However, they are searching a 500sqm area, so f. knows. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 16:18   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

Apparently their intended route is way less than 600m deep (I think he said 'only' 300m), but if it did stray it could get into areas of more than 5000m deep. The Argentines seem to be taking the reports of explosions seriously. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 23 Nov 17 at 16:18 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 16:26   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

If it landed on the continental shelf it could be in one piece, if not it would crush. The "explosions" heard from the Scorpion were the hull collapsing, although there is speculation that it was attacked by one of its own torpedoes. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 18:31   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-argentina-submarine/possible-explosion-detected-near-missing-argentine-subs-last-known-location-idUKKBN1DN1H8 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 18:46   Missing Argentinian submarine. - smokie

I wonder why it took so many days for this to come to light. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 18:50   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

How possible is it for a submarine to survive an explosion of the magnitude that these people can detect? Or can it only have been a "total destruction" explosion to show up on their instruments? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 18:56   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

You would be surprised what can be detected. The Uk and US navies stake their reputation on what can be detected by whom and where in a sphere of interest. They get extremely upset if they don't know where every soviet sub is and what its doing for example. UK and US subs on the other hand go out of their way to be untraceable. Given that its no surprise that other agencies knew what was happening and the Argies didn't. The last thing you do tho is say "hey we have been tracking your subs, and you have a problem tho you don't know it" because then you get asked "how do you know" and of course that answer is not allowed. If the UK were not tracking Argie subs in the Falklands I would be surprised. Tho they may have stopped doing that now. Last edited by: Zero on Thu 23 Nov 17 at 19:00 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 18:57   Missing Argentinian submarine. - madf

>> How possible is it for a submarine to survive an explosion of the magnitude that >> these people can detect? >> >> Or can it only have been a "total destruction" explosion to show up on their >> instruments? >> The modern instruments can hear a whale emit gasses 500 mile away Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 18:58   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

Seismologists are checking every tremor the earth makes everywhere Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 20:10   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

As I posted last Sunday this was not going to end well. As they had not located the missing submarine by last weekend the rescue equipment could not have been got to the location in time to be of use even if the weather was good enough for its use. Assuming there was anyone alive to be rescued. Confirmed dead. www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 23 Nov 17 at 20:14 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 20:28   Missing Argentinian submarine. - rtj70

Even without an explosion, by now they would unfortunately be dead as you said ON. If they now knew where it was and had vessels on top.. no times to rescue anyway. Sad but these old diesel subs I suppose are risky. So thanks ON for being in the UK navy and in subs in particular to protect us Old Navy. :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 20:37   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

No problem, submarines only frightened me a few times. It is a job for life, I will be paid a good pension until I die, and then Mrs ON if I die first. It has and had its perks. :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 20:39   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

>>Even without an explosion, by now they would unfortunately be dead I tend to think that they are dead, but I don't think you can make that statement with such certainty. If you're thinking of oxygen then according to the Argentine Navy with the correct emergency procedures they could have lasted up to 10 days, Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 20:43   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

I do not agree, that would be stretching things even if they had normal atmospheric pressure in the boat which is unlikely. Beware the spin of the situation. Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 23 Nov 17 at 20:44 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 20:48   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

You would know better than me, as I said earlier. That's why I was careful to quote the Argentinos rather than put it forward as my own opinion. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 23 Nov 17 21:00   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

There will be extensive information management in use. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 24 Nov 17 08:28   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Cliff Pope

A question for ON - why are fellow mariners refering to their bonds of friendship, in peacetime, as a "sisterhood" ? Is that because ships are traditionally female? But why the crew though? Just interested. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 24 Nov 17 08:37   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

>> A question for ON - why are fellow mariners refering to their bonds of friendship, >> in peacetime, as a "sisterhood" ? Is that because ships are traditionally female? But why >> the crew though? >> >> Just interested. >> I have not seen that, I have heard of it referred to as a brotherhood. Now there are female crew members no doubt the PC brigade feel they have to have an input. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 24 Nov 17 10:21   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Manatee

>> I have not seen that, I have heard of it referred to as a brotherhood. >> Now there are female crew members no doubt the PC brigade feel they have to >> have an input. Off topic, but the French have been arguing with themselves over the gender of nouns. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42073148 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 24 Nov 17 20:10   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

"Experts" are speculating that the explosion heard was the submarine imploding due to it exceeding it's design depth. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 24 Nov 17 22:21   Missing Argentinian submarine. - R.P.

The sea is the common enemy. I hope the end was quick for them. I would recommend reading the book on HMS Thetis. www.amazon.co.uk/Thetis-Admiralty-Regrets-Disaster-Liverpool/dp/0952102080/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1511561993&sr=1-7&keywords=Thetis The sailor's hymn featured in our upbringing for some undisclosed reason and would move my mother to tears. Who knows. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 24 Nov 17 22:54   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

All UK submarines have a Thetis clip on the rear door of the torpedo tubes. This door can't be opened more than about an inch if there is sea pressure water in the tube. There is also locking bolt which when released opens a small vent valve which is reamed with a steel rod to ensure it is clear. This vent was blocked with paint and there was no reamer or Thetis safety clip fitted and this with a failed interlock, allowed a torpedo tube open to the sea to be opened allowing water to flood the forward end of Thetis. This increased the internal pressure in the boat reducing survival time for the surviving trapped crew. Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 24 Nov 17 at 22:58 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 24 Nov 17 23:28   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Ted

Renamed HMS Thunderbolt after raising. One of our car club served on her, Jackie Northwood, I think. He said they could never get rid of a rust line around the inside of the hull. I think he may have retired as a Lt.Commander. He must have served on board in the first part of the war as Thunderbolt was sunk in the Med in 1943. Dead now, I think. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 10:00   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

My totally unsubstantiated theory is the Argentinian submarine was on the surface with battery problems and therefore propulsion problems. In a very rough sea with little if any speed to allow directional control they took a big wave down the conning tower. This would wipe out all electrics and make the boat very heavy. Our submarines have a rope on the lower conning tower hatch to allow it to be pulled shut in this situation. I was in a submarine when this happened on a small scale, not good! Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 11:49   Missing Argentinian submarine. - sherlock47

>>>Our submarines have a rope on the lower conning tower hatch to allow it to be pulled shut in this situation.<<< Good to know that technology has not taken over completely. Where did the sub commander store his cat o' nine tails? Last edited by: sherlock47 on Sat 25 Nov 17 at 11:49 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 12:03   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Simple is often best, with full bore of water (21") coming down the tower you would not be able to get near it without the rope extention to the hatch handle. In a small submarine like the Argentinian one it would not take long for this situation to become unrecoverable. If they went to crush depth, flooding is highly likely to be the cause. Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Nov 17 at 12:04 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 12:08   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Runfer D'Hills

You'll think this a stupid thought ON ( because it probably is ) ;-) But, you'd think they'd have sort of airbags that would deploy in the event of an emergency? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 12:14   Missing Argentinian submarine. - CGNorwich

What, like buoyancy tanks you could fill with compressed air? I think they have them already. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 12:17   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Runfer D'Hills

Yeah, I know, but I mean kind of extra bags that would pop out sort of thing. Talking rubbish I know. ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 12:25   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

You ever seen car airbags deploy when a car sinks? No, they dont work Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 12:50   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Bromptonaut

>> You ever seen car airbags deploy when a car sinks? No, they dont work They seem to work (most of the time) in helicopter ditchings. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 13:05   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

>> They seem to work (most of the time) in helicopter ditchings. >> Helicopters don't weigh several thousand tons. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 13:04   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Blowing ballast tanks is not as effective at depth because the air used to expell the water is working against sea pressure. Submarines try to use propulsive power to drive themseves up. Blowing ballast tanks requires electrical control systems to be working or communication systems for local control. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 13:22   Missing Argentinian submarine. - CGNorwich

Which is why airbags wouldn't work. they would be imposible to inflate because of the water pressure. Intterestingly I have seen it proposed that submarines could be built without ballast tanks and use only dynamic lift to ascend and dive, much like an aircraft. Not sure they would be too popular though. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 13:31   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

>> Intterestingly I have seen it proposed that submarines could be built without ballast tanks and >> use only dynamic lift to ascend and dive, much like an aircraft. Not sure they >> would be too popular though. Except of course that sometimes subs just need to sit at a given depth with no propulsion and drift. Propulsion is noisy. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 13:39   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

The main ballast tanks are not used to maintain neutral boyancy this is done by pumping water into and out of internal trim tanks. Water can also be pumped between trim tanks to maintain a level trim. This is a frequent process as nuclear submarines are usually making fresh water and discharging brine. Along with domestic water use and the discharge of the sewage tank it is a balancing act! Maintaining the trim when firing ICBMs takes some clever systems! These days propulsion is not noisy. Edit - Even in my day it wasn't. Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Nov 17 at 13:43 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 13:41   Missing Argentinian submarine. - CGNorwich

I think the article I read was talking about commercial transport uses of submarines rather than military ones which as you say have a requirement to be stationary. Such a submarine could have inbuilt inherent positive buoyancy I guess. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 13:45   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

All ships have inbuilt positive boyancy, or they would sink. Submarines have variable boyancy. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 14:03   Missing Argentinian submarine. - CGNorwich

Yes I know. I'm just saying that in theory you could build a submarine craft that has a small inherent positive buoyancy tthat dives and ascends through the water purely by dynamic effect much like an aircraft rises and descend through the air. If such a craft stopped it would naturally ascend to the surface. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 14:09   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Once a neutral trim is established a submarine manoeuvres with control surfaces like an aircraft. My personal opinion is your system would not work. An uncontrolled ascent above safe depth (the depth above which you can be hit by a ship on the surface) is not a good idea. The trim of a 10,000 ton submarine can be adjusted with very little water and can be upset by salinity changes. Any thought of loading and unloading commercial quantities of cargo is a non starter. Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 25 Nov 17 at 14:13 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 14:27   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Ambo

A similar situation occurs in the John Mills film "Morning Departure" (1950). Ours is a volunteer service but how otherwise are crews selected, ON? I imagine they have to exhibit a very high degree of emotional stability. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 14:38   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Was a volunteer service. I was sent for submarine training, after five years experience in diesel submarines I was sent to be part of the crew of a brand new Polaris boat. Obviously planned way above my head! Anyone unsuitable for any reason does not last long. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 14:54   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

It shows how the navy has been decimated. There was planning about ten years ahead to provide the eight Polaris crews plus additional people. The longest training was for the nuclear plant operators. The navy is having big problems finding crews for the new aircraft carriers, who don't need any special training. We also don't have trained fleet air arm squadron personel for them, or aircraft for that matter. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 25 Nov 17 18:41   Missing Argentinian submarine. - CGNorwich

Not my idea ON - just something I recall reading. I'm sure there would be all sorts of practical problems or someone would have done it. I do believe model submarines tend to work on this principle although that would not be quite the same thing. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 13:42   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

This is cruelty to the victims families. Much like the MH370 conspiracy theorists. An internal explosion of the magnitude heard would kill all the crew as would the hull crushing. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5119643/Searchers-Argentine-submarine-defy-gale-force-winds-11th-day.html Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 14:08   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

Had the boat settled gently on the bottom 11 days ago, in the most favourable of circumstances, could they be alive today? And if they were found, right at this moment, on the bottom, how long would it take to get the equipment there and get them out? In short, is there any chance at all? Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 14:14   Missing Argentinian submarine. - rtj70

If they did not replenish oxygen then surely there is no hope. And that assumes there was no explosion and it's intact. I'd say there was little hope a fair while ago but if this impacted my family I'd hope for a miracle too. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 14:54   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

>> In short, is there any chance at all? >> In my opinion, no. Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 27 Nov 17 at 14:55 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 15:02   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Was the escape equipment ever loaded onto ships, and has it started to be returned to is home bases yet? Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 27 Nov 17 at 15:05 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 21:23   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Bigtee

Something stinks with all this i can't believe they don't know where it is. My mind thinks a game of warfare went wrong. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 21:41   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

You obviously have no idea how difficult it is to find a live submarine let alone a dead one even if you have a rough idea where it is. Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 27 Nov 17 at 21:42 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 21:51   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Lygonos

owlcation.com/humanities/World-War-2-History-John-Capes-Amazing-Submarine-Escape Presumably this was in the submariners' legendarium back in the day, ON. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 22:02   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

I knew of this escape. I have done free ascents in the 100' deep escape training tank in what was HMS Dolphin at Haslar. I used both escape lifejackets which have a relief valve to equalise it's pressure with sea pressure and the Mk10 escape suit. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_Escape_Immersion_Equipment Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 27 Nov 17 at 22:03 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 22:11   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

EDIT- I would have used Mk 8 or 9 escape suits. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 21:55   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Bromptonaut

>> You obviously have no idea how difficult it is to find a live submarine let >> alone a dead one even if you have a rough idea where it is. Not often I find myself in agreement with ON but I bow to his professional knowledge here. If it's exact position at time of whatever incident occurred wasn't known and it's subsequently drifted sunk and rolled in waters off the continental shelf then it may never be found. We've still not traced the hull of the Malaysian Airlines 777 that went missing three and a half years ago. It took a year or so to find and to raise the Air France A330 that went down in much more clearly defined circumstances off Brazil. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 22:11   Missing Argentinian submarine. - zippy

Thanks for your insight on this ON. It's much appreciated. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 27 Nov 17 22:22   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

No problem, it's what forums are for, learning about stuff you don't know about. :-) In my case that's a lot! Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 27 Nov 17 at 22:23 Reply to this message | Report message       3

Tue 28 Nov 17 12:29   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

A chink in the information management. news.sky.com/story/missing-submarine-ara-san-juans-last-message-reported-fire-and-leak-11147417 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 16:22   Missing Argentinian submarine. - madf

They're dead. Not many subs survive fires. Not many non nuclear subs survive battery failure.. Fewer survive both. .. And the Argentinian Navy knew that when they had that signal. Last edited by: madf on Tue 28 Nov 17 at 16:27 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 17:35   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Add a lavish dollop of sea water and you have three major problems, actually four because you can't breath smoke or the gas produced when salt water meets battery acid. The Argentinian navy know and knew a lot more than they are releasing to the public. Nothing new for any government agency. Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 28 Nov 17 at 17:37 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 18:10   Missing Argentinian submarine. - R.P.

I think that the selective release of information was a given. HMG would behave in much the same way. Information is managed, sometimes for good reasons and sometimes for other reasons. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 18:17   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

Could be. Don't underestimate the likelihood of pure stupidity rather than conspiracy though. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 18:22   Missing Argentinian submarine. - R.P.

Plenty of evidence of that of course ! Having considered the report about the snorkel theory, wouldn't that be a little bit iffy in very rough seas in peacetime ? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 18:47   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

>> Plenty of evidence of that of course ! Having considered the report about the snorkel >> theory, wouldn't that be a little bit iffy in very rough seas in peacetime ? German invention the Sub snorkel, In WW2. In rough seas the valve would close and if they were not quick enough to shut it down, the BIG MAN diesels would suck all the air out the boat Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 18:49   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Snorting in rough weather is not difficult, although the direction of travel may be limited. I don't know the details of the Argentinian submarines systems but our diesel boats had three valves in the snort system, a main induction hull valve, a float valve at the top of the snort induction mast, and an emergency flap valve which would be tripped shut by any large amounts of water coming down the system, or can be manually tripped. Another problem is the diesel engines pull a vacuum in the boat if they shut briefly. The Chinese lost a crew because the engines were not shut down in this situation. So as you can see, not straight forward, lots of variables, and any one of the problems mentioned depending on their severity, or a combination of them could have caused the loss of the boat. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 18:38   Missing Argentinian submarine. - tyrednemotional

...it is always sensible to keep in mind Hanlon's razor... Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 18:51   Missing Argentinian submarine. - legacylad

I had to look that up. I thought it was something to do with an episode of ‘Father Ted’. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 19:29   Missing Argentinian submarine. - rtj70

I'd never heard that phrase (don't think so anyway)... and within less than 20 minutes of reading your post I just read a review of the AMD Ryzen CPU (irrelevant) and the author refers to Hanlon's Razor. Small world. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 21:32   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

edition.cnn.com/2017/11/28/americas/argentina-submarine/index.html Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 23:00   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Bigtee

Batteries who these days use lead acid batteries. Gel batteries are the norm on commercial equipment less risks of spills & contamination, No idea about a sub but can't for the life of me think it's going to have caps for top ups with the risk of gassing and sparks in a confined space. I smell a cover up...................... Snorkel lets in water again barmy. what do i know :-( Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 23:08   Missing Argentinian submarine. - rtj70

>> Batteries who these days use lead acid batteries. Old submarines maybe? These will be massive - they're not just for starting it you know. >>Snorkel lets in water again barmy. How do you think they get air into the sub if submerged? >> what do i know :-( Nothing about submarines? Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 28 Nov 17 at 23:08 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 23:10   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Bigtee

Lol. i'm aware the snorkel is there to let air in lol. but to let water in too no valve fitted? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 23:12   Missing Argentinian submarine. - rtj70

ON can comment but there will be valves... something went wrong. But it will be an old diesel-electric sub so probably dated technology. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 23:13   Missing Argentinian submarine. - rtj70

Anyone on here other than ON been in a sub? I've been in a Navy one to look around - would not want to live in that underwater! Also been on a mini sub off Hawaii (Oahu to be precise) but we never got to any decent depth there. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 28 Nov 17 23:38   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

Not down in one, i.e. a dive, but been out in one, HMS Oberon. That will have been some time about 1968/69 when I was on TS Foudroyant for two weeks. Last edited by: Zero on Tue 28 Nov 17 at 23:40 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 00:25   Missing Argentinian submarine. - CGNorwich

Well worth a visit if you are ever in Paris is the Argonaute, a 1950s era Hunter Killer diesel submarine which had a 40 man crew, which you will find hard to believe. Its at the Cité des Sciences et de l'Industrie, the French science museum. The museum houses a lot of other interesting stuff too. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 29 Nov 17 at 00:26 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 08:37   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

This one is a bit nearer, if anyone is interested. www.submarine-museum.co.uk Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 09:06   Missing Argentinian submarine. - legacylad

Much further afield I’ve looked around the USS Pampanito moored at Fishermans Wharf. It saw active service during WW2. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 09:11   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

Me too, thats a worthwhile visit if you are there. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 10:11   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Hard Cheese

Me too, was in San Francisco on business. Also the USS Becuna in Philadelphia, a sub of the same class, moored near the USS Olympia, a cruiser built in 1892; and just across the river from the Iowa class battleship the USS New Jersey, that's well worth a visit. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 10:28   Missing Argentinian submarine. - legacylad

Anyone looked around HMS Belfast on the Thames? I must have walked past it several times on my trips to London, never been aboard, and recently sailed past it on a shuttle ferry to Westminster after lunch at the Walkie Talkie building. Worth an hour or two? Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 10:39   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Hard Cheese

>> >> Worth an hour or two? >> Definitely, very well preserved, you can feel how it would have been when in service, I visited the Belfast 40 years ago and again around 4 years ago, really very interesting. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 10:50   Missing Argentinian submarine. - legacylad

Thanks HC. I normally only spend 2 or 3 nights per visit in London and my tiny brain fries with so much to see & do. I really enjoyed my stay in Richmond recently. The days flew by. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 11:13   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Hard Cheese

Greenwich is also well worth a visit, the Cutty Sark, Royal Observatory, the longitude story etc. And the River Bus up to Westminster or wherever is a most enjoyable way of seeing London, Tower Bridge, HMS Belfast and the Tower of London etc from the river. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 13:18   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

If you are up this way (Dundee) a visit to the RRS Discovery and it's adjacent museum is worth a visit. No way would I like to be in the Antarctic in that. The ticket is valid for a year and also covers the Jute Mill museum at the nearby Verdant Works. www.dundeeheritagetrust.co.uk Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 29 Nov 17 at 13:19 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 09:21   Missing Argentinian submarine. - smokie

Thanks for that ON, that museum was included in an annual ticket to the Portsmouth Naval Dockyards which I bought last Feb, and I never got to it at the time. Reminds me I must go there before it expires!! Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 09:30   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

You car buffs might find this useful. :-) shop.nmrn.org.uk/collections/royal-naval-submarines-museum/products/royal-navy-submarine-haynes-manual Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 09:40   Missing Argentinian submarine. - martin aston

Yes the Portsmouth/Gosport sub museum is well worth a visit. Its some years since I've been but I remember it well. They've cut additional doors into the main sub to allow tours right through the very cramped main body of the boat and brought home the extraordinary conditions on board. I'm pleased to see from ON's link that tours are still available led by ex-submariners as they add a lot to the experience. Its not entirely clear but it reads as if this is no longer available every day as there is also mention of recorded commentary. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 10:39   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Roger.

I've been on a submarine on an acclimatisation trip to see what some of our naval colleagues experience. This was part of our Royal Marine Young Officer training. We, of course had no duties, and I found the submerged bit boring. Better was a trip down the Solent, in either a corvette, or a destroyer, when we had the chance to act as a coxswain and give helm orders. Less wonderful , was on HMS Theseus, a light fleet carrier used as training vessel, when we had to stand a 24 period of four on, four off, in the engine-room. We had IIRC 3 months on her, with a trip to Gib (and Tangiers, then a free port, with all that implies, in an MFV ;-) ) thrown in and sleeping in micks in the tiller flat. My respect for my father increased greatly then, as he had spent all his naval life in that sort of environment. (ERA to Engineer Lieutenant), including being at sea for all the war. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 11:28   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Dutchie

Remember the German U boat film.I suppose as real the way it was . Not a nice way to die in one of these bathtubs nowhere to go when you are down at the bottom of the sea. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 12:06   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Duncan

>> Not a nice way to die in one of these bathtubs nowhere to go when >> you are down at the bottom of the sea. >> I imagine if one could avoid panicking, one would simply go to sleep. Then into unconciousness(sp?), and then ..... Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 12:48   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Roger.

>> Remember the German U boat film.I suppose as real the way it was . >> >> Not a nice way to die in one of these bathtubs nowhere to go when >> you are down at the bottom of the sea. >> Das Boot, I think it was. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 17:37   Missing Argentinian submarine. - R.P.

Das Boot it was. Seminal movie and tv series. There is an U Boat on the harbour side in Birkenhead (for northern viewers) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-534 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 18:46   Missing Argentinian submarine. - CGNorwich

Being in a submarine might be claustrophobic to many but can you imagine being lowered more than half a mile into the ocean on a steel cable in metal sphere less than five feet in diameter knowing that if that cable broke you were done for? That was what Beebe and Barton did in 1934 in their Bathysphere. Epic. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 18:48   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

Nautilus under the command of Captain Nemo seemed very luxurious and spacious when it was 40000 leagues under the sea. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 18:52   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

Mind you S.S.R.N. Seaview under the command of Commander Lee Crane and Admiral Nelson on its voyage to the bottom of the sea was always scary, alarms went off every episode. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 18:55   Missing Argentinian submarine. - CGNorwich

That was the very first film I can remember seeing at the cinema. Absolutely amazed by it especially the fight with a giant squid. Will have to check when it was first released. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 19:39   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

1954, disney, and I seemed to have doubled the depth by mistake. Last edited by: Zero on Wed 29 Nov 17 at 19:39 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 20:22   Missing Argentinian submarine. - CGNorwich

Yes that looks right. I would have been five. Would gave been at the Odeon Gants Hill I think. Most films were B & W then so made a big impression on me! Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 19:57   Missing Argentinian submarine. - VxFan

>> Das Boot it was. Seminal movie and tv series. And song by a group called U96 in the 90's www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1xGbEDs6-4 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 20:36   Missing Argentinian submarine. - bathtub tom

>>Well worth a visit if you are ever in Paris is the Argonaute Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt and thumped the Frenchman who kept trying to barge past in that confined space (he didn't half squeal). They have an excellent audio description on a hand held device (in English too). There's also one at Chatham historic naval dockyard with an accompanied member of staff. I asked how they'd get someone out in in a medical emergency. Don't know, he replied and anyway our walkie-talkies don't work in here! Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 20:53   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

I must admit I never believed I would see the inside of a Russian submarine first hand, I couldn't resist this one, well worth a visit if you are in St Petersburg. There was also a Kilo class modern Soviet diesel submarine in the dockyard across the river, they caused me some grief in the cold war. Incredibly quiet machines! www.saint-petersburg.com/museums/c-189-submarine/ Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 29 Nov 17 at 20:57 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 21:01   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Roger.

>> There's also one at Chatham historic naval dockyard with an accompanied member of staff. I >> asked how they'd get someone out in in a medical emergency. Don't know, he replied >> and anyway our walkie-talkies don't work in here! >> Being a Naval family, we were allowed to us the swimming baths at "Chatty"Chatham Dockyard on Sundays. (It was still an R.N facility then and my father was also originally a Chatham rating) Public swimming baths were rare then, so it was a nice perk. Last edited by: Roger. on Wed 29 Nov 17 at 21:03 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 29 Nov 17 21:07   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

The method for getting an injured person out of a confined space is the same throughout the navy, a Neil Robinson stretcher. Basically a bamboo mat with straps and ropes. Google for pictures. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 12:51   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Ambo

>>>The excuse was that pop music had destroyed the hearing ability of a generation of young naval ratings. More likely to have been a reason rather than an excuse. The hearing of youngsters in the UK, at least, is deficient compared with that of older generations, largely due to their love of ubiquitous high volume pop music. It is one reason why cinema sound has to be jacked up to what, to me, are uncomfortable levels. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 13:41   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

>>The hearing of youngsters in the UK, at least, is deficient compared with that of older generations, largely due to their love of ubiquitous high volume pop music. Is that actually true and proven, or just an opinion? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 14:01   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Lygonos

I expect all service personnel have their hearing tested before joining, and those most exposed to noise will have it reassessed regularly. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 16:31   Missing Argentinian submarine. - sooty123

>> I expect all service personnel have their hearing tested before joining, and those most exposed >> to noise will have it reassessed regularly. >> Correct, too many claims in the past to ignore it now. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 15:30   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Ambo

>>Is that actually true and proven, or just an opinion? I speak from my own classroom experience of teaching a range of students from age 18 to 65, over some 20 years. More to the point, two speech and language therapists I know have had similar experiences in treating patients, from much younger to much older than that. I will see if I can locate any scientific research on the topic. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 15:42   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Ambo

Here's a start: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise-induced_hearing_loss Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 1 Dec 17 12:16   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

Sad, even if inevitable and predictable.. www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42187139 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 1 Dec 17 12:58   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

>> Sad, even if inevitable and predictable.. >> And has been since the explosion was heard. As the water was 1,000 meters deep where the explosion was heard I would expect it to be the hull crushing. Just my armchair opinion. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 11 Dec 17 10:36   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

If you ignore the journolistic hype, this is a realistic version of events, the question remains as to why they were that deep. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5165173/Crew-missing-Argentinian-sub-San-Juan-died-instantly.html Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 11 Dec 17 12:14   Missing Argentinian submarine. - R.P.

Thanks ON. Did you see the comment from an Falklands Veteran Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 11 Dec 17 12:39   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Yes I did. I see an ex RAF friend most weeks, he was on the Atlantic Conveyor when it was hit. He was pulled from the water suffering injuries and from hypothermia. He was in a hospital ship with our wounded and also Argentinians. He said most of the Argentinians were frightened teenage conscripts most surprised and thankful for the help and treatment that they were getting. Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 11 Dec 17 at 12:44 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 11 Dec 17 19:44   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

I would add that these young conscripts said they were better fed as POWs than they were by their own army. I would doubt they would forget that even now. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 11 Dec 17 19:59   Missing Argentinian submarine. - R.P.

Indeed there have been some very good follow up documentaries shown in Wales, including one where they interviewed a Nurse who was working at the big field Hospital who was treating some of the Argentine casualties and came across one if not more Welsh speakers from Patagonia...all very emotional for all despite being on conflicting sides Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 11 Dec 17 20:11   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

I have met virtually no Argentinian who fought that holds any grudge. I've worked in Argentina quite often, never had an issue. In the early days they were embarrassed about it as much as anything... Argentinian Politicians and Students on the other hand.................... Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 13 Dec 17 22:21   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Devastated families looking to someone to blame? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5176095/Missing-submarine-chased-Royal-Navy-Helicopter.html Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 16 Dec 17 22:46   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

news.sky.com/story/argentina-fires-head-of-navy-a-month-after-submarine-vanished-11173343 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 09:30   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

Submarine found. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-46245686 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 10:36   Missing Argentinian submarine. - sooty123

Could it be recovered at the suggested depth? Or would it be, is it considered a gravesite? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 14:34   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

>> Could it be recovered at the suggested depth? Or would it be, is it considered >> a gravesite? Recover what? The hull will have been crushed. They may send down remote controlled submersible to recover data loggers to find out what happened, but its a gravesite essentially Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 15:42   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

>>The hull will have been crushed. Depends if it was leaking as it went down, I assume. But even if it does get crushed, surely it only crushes until pressure is relieved? I am asking, I don't know. Mind you, whether or not its brought up is another issue. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 16:19   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Zero

>> >>The hull will have been crushed. >> >> Depends if it was leaking as it went down, I assume. Not all of it will have been leaking, I assume some compartments would have been sealed. >>But even if it >> does get crushed, surely it only crushes until pressure is relieved? >> >> I am asking, I don't know. Look at it from an aircraft perspective. If the aircraft hull gets ruptured, it explodes outwards violently, bodies get sucked out and expand. Reverse that for a submarine, At 900m the pressure outside is 1280.5 psi, if the hull implodes at that pressure sea water enters at explosive levels and turns stuff inside to jam. Last edited by: Zero on Sat 17 Nov 18 at 16:21 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 16:28   Missing Argentinian submarine. - legacylad

Yuk. That kind of end sends Chivers down my spine Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 17 Nov 18 16:35   Missing Argentinian submarine. - No FM2R

Oh FFS. Here's your coat. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 18 Nov 18 02:06   Missing Argentinian submarine. - henry k

>>The hull will have been crushed. >> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-46248970 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 18 Nov 18 18:34   Missing Argentinian submarine. - Old Navy

>> Recover what? The hull will have been crushed. They may send down remote controlled submersible >> to recover data loggers to find out what happened, but its a gravesite essentially >> Do obsolete submarines have aircraft style data loggers these days? Even state of the art ones in my day did not have them. For good reasons. Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 18 Nov 18 at 18:36 Reply to this message | Report message