Non-motoring > EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19   [Read only]
Thread Author: R.P.	Replies: 102

Sat 4 Jun 16 09:33    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - R.P.

***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 20 ***** ============================================================== Ongoing Debate. Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 8 Jun 16 at 01:19       1

Sat 4 Jun 16 10:01    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Bromptonaut

Haywain in previous volume: >>So are you telling us that race and culture are the same thing? No, but they usually go together.       1

Sat 4 Jun 16 12:31    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Haywain

"No," Good, so you accept that race and culture are different. It's very important to remember that difference if you're the sort of chap who likes to use the term 'racist'.       1

Sat 4 Jun 16 13:33    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Bromptonaut

>> Good, so you accept that race and culture are different. It's very important to remember >> that difference if you're the sort of chap who likes to use the term 'racist'. Equally, if you're the sort of chap who harbours racist views but are sufficiently aware to see their unacceptability then using culture as a proxy might seem like an answer.

Sat 4 Jun 16 14:17    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Haywain

"Equally, if you're the sort of chap who harbours racist views but are sufficiently aware to see their unacceptability then using culture as a proxy might seem like an answer." You have been well-indoctrinated, Brompt - so well that you can't see the wood for the trees; it often seems to occur with public-sector people. I have previously mentioned on here the time when hospital staff were suspecting my wife and I of child-abuse ......... when, subsequently it became apparent that the bruising on our daughter's arms was caused by an over-zealous, heavy-handed nurse. I can tell you, it makes you feel sick. Last edited by: Haywain on Sat 4 Jun 16 at 14:18       1

Sat 4 Jun 16 15:12    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Westpig

>> >>So are you telling us that race and culture are the same thing? >> >> No, but they usually go together. >> If person 'A' supports multiculturalism and person 'B' does not. Does person 'A' automatically think person 'B' is racist....? Because some might see it simply as a difference of opinion.

Sat 4 Jun 16 15:43    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Bromptonaut

>>Does person 'A' automatically think person 'B' is racist....? Not automatically no. Needs further exploration. What do A and B understand multiculturalism to look like? Because it's quite likely they don't agree in which case bananas are being compared to elephants. Or you could apply the duck test - does B waddle and quack?

Sat 4 Jun 16 15:51    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> >> What do A and B understand multiculturalism to look like? Because it's quite likely they >> don't agree in which case bananas are being compared to elephants. >> >> I wonder how many people who like to think multiculturalism is the best thing since sliced bread live in multicultural areas? Or are they judging from their position in nice little middle class white suburbs?

Sat 4 Jun 16 16:16    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Bromptonaut

>> I wonder how many people who like to think multiculturalism is the best thing since >> sliced bread live in multicultural areas? Or are they judging from their position in nice >> little middle class white suburbs? Which post rather proves my point about definition of multiculturalism. In my dictionary what Robin describes is a mixed area and issues in the mix are about more than either race or culture. Multiculturalism is about valuing and promoting diversity. The opposite of Tebbit's cricket test.

Sat 4 Jun 16 16:16    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Haywain

"Or you could apply the duck test - does B waddle and quack?" So, let me get this right, Brompt ...... if I see a waddling, quacking duck and I think that it might be a racist, it probably is? Brompt - you have been spending too much time in seminars with Krazy Konsultants Inc. That word again, is 'indoctrination'. My mate has been nobbled too - only he sees god everywhere. It's great that you came down to the Suffolk coast - I love it; I hope the fresh air and calm helped to take your mind of your all-pervading paranoia.       1

Sat 4 Jun 16 11:25   Vote Leave goes on lying - WillDeBeest

A leaflet just came through my door that shows Vote Leave still has - to be charitable - a tenuous grip on the idea of truth. On the front is the universally discredited 'The EU costs us £350 million a week', which they know is not true. It goes on to say 'we could spend on that on the NHS instead, which is almost as dishonest, given who's saying it - the right of the Tory party and Ukip, who would sooner privatize the whole thing. Then it tells us Turkey is about to join the EU, which it isn't, throws in some dog-whistle stuff about UK laws and human rights, then has the nerve to head its back page 'EU Myth Buster', six panels full of baseless assertions ('outside the EU, we would prosper, we would be free, and we would stand tall,' says the campaign's other unreliable Nige, Lawson) and manifest falsehoods like this promise of a tax-free future from that Wetherspoons bloke: 'the EU forces us to charge VAT on goods, pushing up bills for working families.' Big fat liars, the lot of them. Anyone here care to defend it?       3

Sat 4 Jun 16 11:37   Vote Leave goes on lying - Pat

Since I can no longer answer the posts in the previous volume it seems a bit pointless doing it here so I will just say I told them I understood they couldn't vote but was told they had both received their polling cards through the post. .......and, isn't it telling tale that two of my own countrymen call me a racist, yet the many foreigners of all colours I work with, know socially and meet in the course of a normal day, don't. It proves racism is mostly something dreamed up by someone who doesn't suffer from it, yet feels the need to prove it exists on another's behalf. Certainly this situation happens far too often on this forum and I'd like to bet those who do it have never been discriminated against. Pat       2

Sat 4 Jun 16 11:45   Vote Leave goes on lying - sooty123

so I will just say I told them I understood >> they couldn't vote but was told they had both received their polling cards through the >> post. a few thousand polling cards have been incorrectly issued to eu citizens. they've been cancelled now, they will have been one of those.

Sun 5 Jun 16 05:06   Vote Leave goes on lying - Pat

I think that must be the case Sooty but as yet, our local authorities have not admitted publicly to being involved in this 'gaffe'. With our high ethnic population in the area and the paranoia of Fen folk, there are many around here who would tell you it was no 'gaffe' but just an attempt to make a mistake that was never discovered by the present government:) Pat

Sun 5 Jun 16 07:31   Vote Leave goes on lying - sooty123

>> I think that must be the case Sooty but as yet, our local authorities have not admitted publicly to being involved in this 'gaffe'. It wasn't their mistake, it was the printing company. With our high ethnic population in the area and the paranoia of Fen folk, there are many around here who would tell you it was no 'gaffe' but just an attempt to make a mistake that was never discovered by the present government:) no doubt plenty of people ready to believe that. I think it's called getting your excuses in early ;) Paranoia of fen folk? Can't say they are more or less than anywhere else, not that I've noticed anyway.       1

Sun 5 Jun 16 09:41   Vote Remain goes on lying (amended for balance) - Manatee

>> It wasn't their mistake, it was the printing company. Sounds like an innocent mistake by a bloke in a shed with inky hands. A bit more than a printing company: www.xssl.uk/company-overview As is usual with events like this the body with overall responsibility, the witless Electoral Commission, knew about it and instead of making a statement about the mistake and what they were going to do about it, just set about fixing it and hoped for the best hence making it look like a failed conspiracy when the facts inevitably emerged. "However yesterday a leaked email revealed that the Electoral Commission was aware that here was a major issue and had already taken steps to try to fix it. The leaked email disclosed that counting officers had been told that a problem with software provided by supplier Xpress meant some EU citizens had been wrongly counted as eligble to vote. The email said Xpress was adding a patch to fix the software, adding: "The patch will cancel any postal votes that have been wrongly issued to electors and ensure that any electors whose G marker [indicating EU citizen] wasn't originally recorded are not included in polling station registers. "In addition, they have also issued a letter which will be generated for everyone who wrongly received a poll card or postal vote explaining what has happened and that they will not be able to vote at the referendum." Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 5 Jun 16 at 09:45

Sun 5 Jun 16 09:50   Vote Remain goes on lying (amended for balance) - sooty123

>> >> It wasn't their mistake, it was the printing company. >> >> Sounds like an innocent mistake by a bloke in a shed with inky hands. >> >> A bit more than a printing company: >> >> www.xssl.uk/company-overview I wasn't trying to make it sound like anything. Apologies if i didn't do a full company analysis beforehand.       1

Sun 5 Jun 16 09:59   Vote Remain goes on lying (amended for balance) - Manatee

>> I wasn't trying to make it sound like anything. Apologies if i didn't do a >> full company analysis beforehand. I should think so too:) My slight sarcasm was meant to be directed at the source, not the messenger.

Sun 5 Jun 16 10:24   Vote Leave goes on lying - devonite

As most E.U migrants would probably "vote-in" if they could, the "Conspiritists"(sp?) could claim that it was an attempt by the "IN's" to manipulate the vote in their favour, but they were rumbled, so it's turned into a Printers error! ;-)

Sat 4 Jun 16 11:55   Vote Leave goes on lying - Bromptonaut

>> .......and, isn't it telling tale that two of my own countrymen call me a racist, >> yet the many foreigners of all colours I work with, know socially and meet in >> the course of a normal day, don't. The Eastern Europeans tend to come from countries that are white near moncutlure. Some eg Bulgaria/Romania with Roma people have their own internal minorities against whom discrimination is institutional and legitimised. A number struggle to understand equality etc as it's practised in the UK. I've had more than one CA client who is Asian or Black British and has complained of racial abuse from EU migrant co-workers or managers. >> It proves racism is mostly something dreamed up by someone who doesn't suffer from it, >> yet feels the need to prove it exists on another's behalf. That's so silly it's not even worth responding to. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 4 Jun 16 at 11:57       3

Sat 4 Jun 16 12:40   Canvassers - Haywain

I saw the first real signs the referendum hotting up this morning as I walked up the main shopping drag into town. A group of about a dozen 'Tories for Europe' people were handing out leaflets expounding the benefits to our economy whilst, some 3 yards away, an eastern-European chap was selling his Big Issues. Each side appeared slightly uncomfortable with the presence of the other.

Sun 5 Jun 16 08:00   the other thread - sooty123

Looking there its quite surprising (or not) to see how few people changed their minds. It certainly for me puts into context all the shouting and moaning about one side or the others campaign. For all the complaining ' but but but they said blah! they are trying to fix the vote 'etc etc i believe virtually all both campaigns efforts feel on deaf ears or just reinforced people's believe that they were right all along.

Sun 5 Jun 16 09:19   the other thread - Slidingpillar

Because most folk are intelligent, and can recognise the 'facts' touted by both sides are either inventions or manipulations and are 'proving' both in and out to be the best. Of course, some things said on both sides are true, but there is so much puff and weasel words, most folk do not change and will/did vote based on their own interpretation.       3

Sun 5 Jun 16 09:30   the other thread - sooty123

most folk do not change and will/did vote based on their >> own interpretation. >> Absolutely, i meant that many people made that choice along time ago, i don't think the current campaigns, for all the noise, are changing anyone's mind from what I've seen anyway.

Sun 5 Jun 16 12:48   the other thread - Haywain

"i don't think the current campaigns, for all the noise, are changing anyone's mind from what I've seen anyway." It isn’t possible to weigh up all the ‘claimed’ positives and negatives for leaving so, in the end, I held the simple background consideration of what we thought we were voting for last time – and what we ended up with. Of course, the past is not the issue – we are now voting for the future, based on what we have seen so far. Do we like the direction that the EU is heading – because that is what we are being asked to approve? I hope no one is pinning his hopes on some sort of ‘reform’ - it ain’t going to happen. I will vote ‘out’, though I fully expect that we will stay; if the ‘remain’ vote is swayed by the ‘younger generation’ and that’s what they want, then that’s fine. Younger people don’t like change and the EU is all that they’ve ever known. Empires always crumble sooner or later and it will be interesting to see how long the EU lasts. Would the loss of one of the EU’s major states precipitate major changes to the way the EU works, or would it all collapse like a house of cards?

Sun 5 Jun 16 15:54   the other thread - Dog

>>I hope no one is pinning his hopes on some sort of 'reform' - it ain't going to happen. When the UK votes to leave the EU on the 23rd, I wouldn't be surprised if it set orf a domino effect with other dissatisfied members of the over-bureaucratised superstate, thereby leading to some sort of reform taking place to satisfy those who aren't overjoyed with the European Union - in it's present form.

Sun 5 Jun 16 16:02   the other thread - Bromptonaut

>> >> other dissatisfied members of the over-bureaucratised superstate, >> thereby leading to some sort of reform taking place to satisfy those who aren't overjoyed >> with the European Union - in it's present form. If the UK stays in and makes right alliances it can drive that reform from within.       2

Sun 5 Jun 16 16:15   the other thread - Westpig

>> If the UK stays in and makes right alliances it can drive that reform from >> within. I admire your optimistic nature.... but don't share it. There are plenty within Europe who couldn't give a toss about our outlook... and we are one of 28 states... who will back our reform plans?       3

Sun 5 Jun 16 16:30   the other thread - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> >> I admire your optimistic nature.... but don't share it. >> >> There are plenty within Europe who couldn't give a toss about our outlook... and we >> are one of 28 states... who will back our reform plans? >> Neither do I. The goal of the EU is to turn the block into a United States of Europe, with one currency, a common taxation rate and ultimately one overall house of government.       4

Sun 5 Jun 16 17:00   the other thread - sooty123

.. who will back our reform plans? >> From what I've been reading Germany are quite keen on reform. They want us to take a more active role in it. Of course it depends on your views how much weight you give this.

Sun 5 Jun 16 17:06   the other thread - Bromptonaut

>> From what I've been reading Germany are quite keen on reform. They want us to >> take a more active role in it. Of course it depends on your views how >> much weight you give this. Poland, Hungary and Denmark might be allies too.

Sun 5 Jun 16 17:15   the other thread - sooty123

> Poland, Hungary and Denmark might be allies too. >> Not sure about denmark, they along with Sweden are quite anti eu. blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/swedes-tell-britain-if-you-leave-the-eu-well-follow/ obviously depends on your pov as to how much you believe it.

Sun 5 Jun 16 17:16   the other thread - Haywain

"If the UK stays in and makes right alliances it can drive that reform from within." You are a very sweet chap, Brompt - have you ever lived and worked in the real world?       2

Sun 5 Jun 16 17:42   the other thread - Skip

>> "If the UK stays in and makes right alliances it can drive that reform from >> within." >> >> You are a very sweet chap, Brompt - have you ever lived and worked in >> the real world? >> This is the big problem for me with the EU, I don't think the other countries (certainly France and Germany) give a stuff about us or what we want.       2

Sun 5 Jun 16 18:06   the other thread - Dog

>>This is the big problem for me with the EU, I don't think the other countries (certainly France and Germany) give a stuff about us or what we want. They may well raise an eyebrow or two if we cease to hand over £8.5 billion every year, to be members of their club.       3

Sun 5 Jun 16 18:40   the other thread - Skip

>> They may well raise an eyebrow or two if we cease to hand over £8.5 >> billion every year, to be members of their club. >> That's being very cynical Dog, but probably 100% correct !       3

Sun 5 Jun 16 17:43   the other thread - WillDeBeest

I thought we Remainers were the superior and patronizing ones.

Sun 5 Jun 16 17:53   the other thread - sooty123

>> I thought we Remainers were the superior and patronizing ones. >> No group has a monopoly on that.

Sun 5 Jun 16 11:19   the other thread - Westpig

>> Because most folk are intelligent, and can recognise the 'facts' touted by both sides are >> either inventions or manipulations and are 'proving' both in and out to be the best. >> Of course, some things said on both sides are true, but there is so much >> puff and weasel words, most folk do not change and will/did vote based on their >> own interpretation. >> Absolutely. As an example, up until now I've had a fairly high opinion of David Cameron. I thought he conducted himself well in the coalition and achieved a fair amount within the constraints a coalition provides.. and I was well pleased when he won an election outright and was willing to tackle our deficit. He could easily have brought some gravitas to the table when he argued his 'in' beliefs with regards the referendum and as I understand some/a lot of the difficulties that both 'in' and 'out' will have... then a balanced, well thought out, sensible input from him, might well have had me vote a reluctant 'in' (if I thought some of the excesses could meaningfully be curbed). Instead of that he went down the shyster route and took the voters to be fools. Some of the crap he's been spouting is unbelievable. Did he really believe the voters would fall for that? If there's an 'out' result, he and George Osborne must take a fair chunk of blame/credit for it. The same attitude has prevailed on here. The talking down to and ridiculing of another's opinion.. all that does is get someone to 'up the drawbridge' and have me think considerably less of the poster.       4

Sun 5 Jun 16 11:51   the other thread - smokie

>> If there's an 'out' result, he and George Osborne must take a fair chunk of >> blame/credit for it. >> That's true whichever way it goes isn't it?

Sun 5 Jun 16 12:00   the other thread - Westpig

>> That's true whichever way it goes isn't it? >> True...my point is though, I think the puerile approach has put some people off. It remains to be seen if that approach is successful.

Sun 5 Jun 16 12:16   the other thread - Robin O'Reliant

I feel the same about Cameron, he has become a complete joke and he is going to pay for it whichever way the vote goes. Corbyn (Touted by his supporters as a man of principle) is no better. He has always been anti EU but has come down as a remain to avoid splitting his own party and be able to take advantage of the Conservatives turmoil.       3

Sun 5 Jun 16 12:29   the other thread - Bromptonaut

>> >> and be able >> to take advantage of the Conservatives turmoil. I only wish he could/would. Open goal and he's utterly failed to get out of his own half. Principled guy but simply lacks the skills to be party leader. McDonnell OTOH seems much more combative and articulate both in the house and with media. Unlike the Blair clones, and probably my own choice Keir Starmer, he's acceptable to the membership.

Sun 5 Jun 16 13:01   the other thread - sooty123

I guess he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. He might think the eu is run by big business and really thinks we should leave but then that would put him on the same side as farage.       1

Sun 5 Jun 16 13:02   the other thread - Haywain

"Open goal and he's utterly failed to get out of his own half." Trouble is, very few people are now interested in the Labour Party - it is largely an irrelevance. The traditional 'working class' supporters like my father (91, still maintaining that Arthur Scargill is a good bloke) are dying out. The 'workers' are now being replaced by disgruntled, middle-class, Islington socialists (formerly of the LibDems?) and there is no trust between the two cultures. At grass-roots level, Labour is even more divided than the Tories.       3

Sun 5 Jun 16 13:01   the other thread - Skip

I too feel the same about DC. A lot of the people who he is insulting and belittling because they want out are still Conservative voters and he should have thought of this before spouting some of the utter crap that he (& Osborne) have.       3

Sun 5 Jun 16 13:46   the other thread - Manatee

>> I too feel the same about DC. A lot of the people who he is >> insulting and belittling because they want out are still Conservative voters and he should have >> thought of this before spouting some of the utter crap that he (& Osborne) have. I don't think Cameron's judgement on this has been very good at all. Very poor. In a PM, good judgement is probably more important than being an intellectual giant; they can't know everything and there is never a shortage of brainy advisers. It's thought rank and file Conservative MPs are evenly split, in contrast with the mainly loyal Ministerial ones, and Conservative voters are c. 48% In, 44% Out. Those Leavers, as Skip implies, are people he and the party need. He could have disagreed with them and presented his case respectfully, but he has got carried away. I've had to do a fair bit of persuading in my life, and I don't think I've ever converted anybody with ridicule. If Cameron and Osborne had not been in the two top positions in government and the party, they would not have used such a tone - they are, perhaps unconsciously, leaning lazily on their authority. Cameron will IMO pay and they'll have him out, win or lose, if there is a sniff of a challenge from somebody who looks as if he or she could win an election. Power corrupts and all that, or at least it fatally undermines objectivity it seems. Oh for a statesman. Or woman of course. Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 5 Jun 16 at 13:48       3

Sun 5 Jun 16 13:54   the other thread - Skip

Another good post Manatee.

Sun 5 Jun 16 14:14   the other thread - fluffy

At the moment the Conservative Party are split asunder. Lets hope the Conservative Party can reunite without much damage.

Sun 5 Jun 16 14:52   the other thread - Dutchie

I don't care if they unite or not fluffy.Not split just a disagreement about Europe they all love each other.

Sun 5 Jun 16 15:06   the other thread - Bromptonaut

>> I don't care if they unite or not fluffy.Not split just a disagreement about Europe >> they all love each other. Not so sure about that D. The Parliamentary party is far closer to Out than the current leadership and Cabinet. The party in the constituencies even more so. If the In side wins but closely and there's a perception that advantage was played then defections are possible. If Out wins then I think some pro-EU Tories may find they are fish out of water and move to a new Centre party. There are factions beyond Europe too; One Nation v Continuity Thatcherites. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 5 Jun 16 at 15:06

Sun 5 Jun 16 15:48   the other thread - Westpig

>> Another good post Manatee. >> Ditto

Sun 5 Jun 16 14:26   the other thread - sooty123

Cameron will IMO pay and they'll have him out, win or lose, if there is >> a sniff of a challenge from somebody who looks as if he or she could >> win an election. thing is he's gone anyway win or lose. I can't see much of a downside, more a matter of how he manages his departure.       1

Sun 5 Jun 16 14:51   the other thread - fluffy

Who is the best Conservative to replace David Cameron.

Sun 5 Jun 16 15:51   the other thread - Westpig

>> Or woman of course. >> Except Theresa May. If she became PM, they'd lose my vote.... and IMO the best time this country has had was when Maggie was PM (with obviously the Queen as Head of State).

Sun 5 Jun 16 16:36   the other thread - fluffy

Don forum members think Micheal Gove would be the best Prime Minister to replace David Cameron.       1

Sun 5 Jun 16 16:43   the other thread - Bromptonaut

Gove has been a surprisingly good Lord Chancellor. My initial thought was he'd be even more of a disaster than Grayling. In fact he's reversed several of his predecessor's more egregious policies including he prison books ban and further cuts to Criminal Legal Aid*. He's also going the right way on prisons. *Civil Legal Aid still needs attention though.

Sun 5 Jun 16 18:53   the other thread - Westpig

>> Gove has been a surprisingly good Lord Chancellor. My initial thought was he'd be even >> more of a disaster than Grayling. In fact he's reversed several of his predecessor's more >> egregious policies including he prison books ban and further cuts to Criminal Legal Aid*. He's >> also going the right way on prisons. >> >> *Civil Legal Aid still needs attention though. >> I agree with you. He's quite bright.... ..... and anyone that can annoy the teaching unions as much as he did, can't be that bad.       1

Sun 5 Jun 16 20:15   the other thread - Bromptonaut

>> >> Or woman of course. >> >> >> Except Theresa May. What, given your general Tory leaning, is your issue with Mrs May?

Sun 5 Jun 16 20:23   the other thread - NortonES2

I'm guessing it's because May doesn't care for the police or the Federation, and not afraid to say so.

Sun 5 Jun 16 21:34   the other thread - WillDeBeest

Now you've got me visualizing WP as Captain Kirk - complete with hairpiece and corset.       1

Sun 5 Jun 16 22:33   the other thread - Dutchie

Harriet Harman is prettier. Therese May something about her in a nice way.>:)

Sun 5 Jun 16 22:50   the other thread - Westpig

>> What, given your general Tory leaning, is your issue with Mrs May? >> Unpleasant, underhand. Not just the police, although that's obviously from where I first formed the opinion. She's just started on the fire service. I have no problem with cost saving, it needed to be done and difficult decisions made. I do have a big problem with undermining people to achieve your goal... because not only is it an unpleasant way of doing business...it'll come back to haunt the country later. Having the police (and others) deliberately weakened to achieve her political goals does the country no favour... and it will eventually come home to roost.

Mon 6 Jun 16 07:48   the other thread - Bromptonaut

>> I do have a big problem with undermining people to achieve your goal... because not >> only is it an unpleasant way of doing business...it'll come back to haunt the country >> later. And how does that differ from Gove's treatment of the teaching profession?       2

Mon 6 Jun 16 08:03   the other thread - Westpig

>> And how does that differ from Gove's treatment of the teaching profession? >> I don't see it the same way

Mon 6 Jun 16 08:08   the other thread - sooty123

> I don't see it the same way >> I don't know the specifics, but you're bothered that one minister has antagonised one group of employees. And in another case you're quite pleased that a minister has antagonised another group of employees. Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 6 Jun 16 at 08:09       2

Mon 6 Jun 16 18:56   the other thread - Westpig

>> I don't know the specifics, but you're bothered that one minister has antagonised one group >> of employees. And in another case you're quite pleased that a minister has antagonised another >> group of employees. >> Too simplistic. I think Govt ministers ARE there to ensure the govt's work is completed.. and if they ruffle feathers, sometimes, then it's par for the course... however, that is different from thoroughly and deliberately undermining the whole outfit...and I suspect, on purpose.

Mon 6 Jun 16 22:06   the other thread - sooty123

Too simplistic. >> Well i didn't have a huge amount to go on. >> I think Govt ministers ARE there to ensure the govt's work is completed.. and if they ruffle feathers, sometimes, then it's par for the course... however, that is different from thoroughly and deliberately undermining the whole outfit...and I suspect, on purpose. >> I would imagine a lot of teachers think the same.

Mon 6 Jun 16 22:08   the other thread - Westpig

>> I would imagine a lot of teachers think the same. >> I don't agree... and I'm married to one. Wifey didn't like Gove and didn't agree with some of his aims or actions... but she didn't feel that he was trying to emasculate the teaching profession to achieve his goals.

Mon 6 Jun 16 22:14   the other thread - sooty123

> I don't agree. >> I wouldn't imagine so, no. >> Wifey didn't like Gove and didn't agree with some of his aims or actions... but >> she didn't feel that he was trying to emasculate the teaching profession to achieve his goals. Small sample of course. I think the general point brompt covered above, It's a matter of perception and seeing things from another side.

Mon 6 Jun 16 22:23   the other thread - Bromptonaut

>> Wifey didn't like Gove and didn't agree with some of his aims or actions... but >> she didn't feel that he was trying to emasculate the teaching profession to achieve his >> goals. Emasculate the profession, in the sense of de-skilling and removing all discretion, is absolutely where Mrs B (also a teacher) saw him coming from. Nicky Morgan is from same mould. An in case anybody thinks I'm on political mission I'll repeat that (a) Labour Education Ministers were on same script and (b) Gove has, within constraints of his party, been a decent Lord Chancellor/SoS for Justice.

Mon 6 Jun 16 08:20   the other thread - Bromptonaut

>> I don't see it the same way Even if, or whatever reason, you regard the Federation and FBU as worthy unions and NAS/UWT and NUT as unworthy I cannot see how you regard Gove's attacks on the profession differently. He's imposed his own views over those of people who's understanding of the education process is way beyond his own. Plenty of examples ranging from dictats about phonics through testing to the whole Academy/Free School thing. And to be clear, I'm not making a party political point. Labour's ministers, with honourable exception of Estelle Morris, took much the same road.

Mon 6 Jun 16 18:58   the other thread - Westpig

>> Even if, or whatever reason, you regard the Federation and FBU as worthy unions and >> NAS/UWT and NUT as unworthy The Police Federation isn't a union, the police are not allowed to have a union. I cannot see how you regard Gove's attacks on the >> profession differently. See above. He's imposed his own views over those of people who's understanding of the >> education process is way beyond his own. Presumably he'd have advisers for that.

Mon 6 Jun 16 19:42   the other thread - WillDeBeest

...he'd have advisers for that... ...whereas May is left to make up police policy on the (expensively shod) hoof?

Mon 6 Jun 16 21:36   the other thread - Lygonos

>>...whereas May is left to make up police policy on the (expensively shod) cloven hoof?

Mon 6 Jun 16 21:56   the other thread - Westpig

>> ...whereas May is left to make up police policy on the (expensively shod) hoof? >> She'll have advisers as well, of course she will... but it is my belief that she has deliberately and systematically undermined the police.. for political reasons... presumably for financial and/or the need/wish to control them. I think it is: A, morally reprehensible and B, unwise. Tony Blair started it....the Home Office under his rule started this political control malarkey, something that had never been there before. Theresa May has taken it a number of steps further forward. Now whether she has done this on her own (or mostly on her own) initiative.. or whether it is a policy come from a collective at the top of the party, that could be debated... but my money is on her, she certainly took the role on with gusto.

Mon 6 Jun 16 22:08   the other thread - WillDeBeest

...but the police are a moral necessity, whereas the teachers are just a political nuisance? I'm hearing your values here rather than any real moral absolutes.

Mon 6 Jun 16 22:09   the other thread - Westpig

>> ...but the police are a moral necessity, whereas the teachers are just a political nuisance? >> I'm hearing your values here rather than any real moral absolutes. >> er, no... that's your take on what you think my morals might be. My wife is a teacher and I value her role/input very much... and as I have children of 4 and 8 years old, it's all remarkably relevant at the moment in the Westpig family. Last edited by: Westpig on Mon 6 Jun 16 at 22:11

Mon 6 Jun 16 21:57   the other thread - Bromptonaut

>> The Police Federation isn't a union, the police are not allowed to have a union. It's a staff association that, excepting the right to call strikes, performs the functions of a union. It negotiates on pay and conditions and is the outfit to which an officer would turn in event of a grievance with management. It walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. And whatever the semantics I still don't understand why Gove ruffling feathers/undermining the whole outfit (perspectives vary) is different from May ruffling feathers/undermining the whole outfit (perspectives vary).

Mon 6 Jun 16 22:06   the other thread - Westpig

>> And whatever the semantics I still don't understand why Gove ruffling feathers/undermining the whole outfit >> (perspectives vary) is different from May ruffling feathers/undermining the whole outfit (perspectives vary). >> I will try again. Ministers do what ministers do... someone's feathers will be ruffled. If they're elected that's mostly right and proper, 'don't like it, vote them out'. However.... IMO Theresa May has gone beyond that. It has been her aim to control the police, knock them off their perch.... so there's been a lot of things that have undermined them. So not just imposing cuts or changes of conditions, etc...plenty have had that and from this country's finances point of view, it's a necessary evil ...i'm talking about a complete undermining of their ways....and I think long term for this country that's foolish. I didn't see Gove doing that... he imposed what he wanted, yes, but I didn't see an underhand, insidious, creeping, unpleasantness.

Mon 6 Jun 16 22:16   the other thread - Westpig

>> It's a staff association that, excepting the right to call strikes, performs the functions of >> a union. It negotiates on pay and conditions and is the outfit to which an >> officer would turn in event of a grievance with management. It walks like a duck >> and quacks like a duck. The Police Federation is a complete toothless tiger. It has no strength to negotiate anything. It might well seem to perform many of the roles of a union, but ultimately it will do as its told... and it too has been emasculated in recent years. The only reason police offices subscribe to it, is to get some legal cover if it all goes breasts up.

Mon 6 Jun 16 22:25   the other thread - Bromptonaut

>> The Police Federation is a complete toothless tiger. It has no strength to negotiate anything. >> It might well seem to perform many of the roles of a union, but ultimately >> it will do as its told... and it too has been emasculated in recent years. >> >> The only reason police offices subscribe to it, is to get some legal cover if >> it all goes breasts up. As I said, it's just like every other union....

Tue 7 Jun 16 08:02   the other thread - Westpig

>> As I said, it's just like every other union.... >> ... other than the ultimate weapon, often used by some, the one that does in fact make an employer actually think. So, it's like a union, but doesn't have the armoury of a union, so it's not as union.

Mon 6 Jun 16 09:02    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Haywain

Having originally supported the idea of the EEC, my views now seem to concur pretty much with what this bloke has written in the Telegraph. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/05/the-europe-i-backed-in-1975-has-disappeared/       1

Mon 6 Jun 16 09:10    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - movilogo

Has any forum member changed his/her opinion based on discussion here? I don't think anyone from either IN/OUT camp moved to other camp. All I have noticed that this debate had caused bit of drift and altercation in the forum. That's why I stopped posting on this thread and I'll simply vote "leave" on the day. PS: What I have noticed about my friends/relatives/colleagues is that a lot of them are still undecided and some are moving like a pendulum on each side. It will be interesting to observe how the defeating side carries on in case of a close contest (which is likely to be as per all exit polls).

Mon 6 Jun 16 10:09    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Haywain

"I don't think anyone from either IN/OUT camp moved to other camp." I think, in the end, it depends on whether or not you are prepared to accept a United States of Europe.       2

Mon 6 Jun 16 10:19    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Lygonos

I think, in the end, it depends on whether or not you want the UK to become an isolated geo-political irrelevance.       6

Mon 6 Jun 16 10:35    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - CGNorwich

If there ever was to be a United States of Europe, not very likely in my opinion, it would in all probability be the richest most diverse country on Earth with the wealthiest and best educated population in the world. The food would be good too. Who on earth would want to be part of that?       2

Mon 6 Jun 16 10:23    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Bromptonaut

>> I think, in the end, it depends on whether or not you are prepared to >> accept a United States of Europe. How is that going to be imposed without treaty change which will be unacceptable to a significant number of current members? In so far as the pendulum ever really swung in that direction it's now going the other way. Would certainly be subject to another referendum if it were proposed.       2

Mon 6 Jun 16 11:02    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Manatee

>> >> I think, in the end, it depends on whether or not you are prepared >> to >> >> accept a United States of Europe. >> >> How is that going to be imposed without treaty change which will be unacceptable to >> a significant number of current members? Difficult to see it happening any time soon I agree. So what is the point of the creeping EU takeover, and the common currency disaster? I continue to be convinced that long term we would be better off out, and my decision to vote remain (because I do believe that the fragile state of capital markets means almost any kind of shock could cause a crunch) is causing me misgivings. I had a chat with a friend of mine yesterday who owns a software company. They sell their proprietary packages inside and outside Europe. To my surprise he said he will vote Leave for a mixture of reasons, inefficiency of the EU as he sees it, lack of democratic control (the sovereignty issue) being a couple. I asked if it didn't make his export sales a lot easier within the EU - apparently not, he finds it easier to sell outside the EU than in. In the EU in addition to an HMRC VAT return there is an "EU VAT return". Outside the EU, the supply is zero rated and the contractual terms are that the buyer is responsible for all local taxes and that's it apart from the currency risk which he can manage of he chooses with forward contracts. That's just an admin issue, which the leader of a large public company (and Cameron perhaps) is probably not even aware of - for a business with 20-30 employees it has more of an impact.       1

Mon 6 Jun 16 10:38    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - WillDeBeest

...United States of Europe... Yawn. So many canards, so little sauce à l'orange.

Mon 6 Jun 16 11:02    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Manatee

Yawn, so much Yawning:)

Mon 6 Jun 16 11:53    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - WillDeBeest

It's contagious among like-minded people - and you yawned after me, so you must be coming round to my way of thinking. };---)

Mon 6 Jun 16 15:35    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - movilogo

The remain campaign is running buses showing "MORE JOBS, LOWER PRICES". I read it like this More lower paying jobs and higher house prices :o)

Tue 7 Jun 16 09:28    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - WillDeBeest

The article in HW's link is full of the usual Outie false dichotomies, and this piece of alarmingly anachronistic thinking: Ever since England’s direct ties with continental Europe ended with the loss of Aquitaine and Calais 500 years ago, our role has been to protect our own interests against the rise of powerful competitors. Historically these have included Spain, France, Holland and, of course, Germany. Outies for WW3 it is, then. P&O did quite nicely out of the Falklands adventure, didn't it?

Tue 7 Jun 16 12:27    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - NortonES2

Seem to have forgotten the 1688 invasion by the Netherlands, usurping the Stuarts and replacing them with Orangemen. Not to mention their relatives AKA Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Perhaps Charles will revert to his real family name in time?

Tue 7 Jun 16 13:05    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Alanovich

Which would actually be Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, as that's his father's name (which he changed to Mountbatten, in a similar way in which the 'royals' tried to con us by changing theirs to Windsor). :-) (Can't resist.)

Tue 7 Jun 16 14:05    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Focusless

>> in a similar way in which the 'royals' tried to con us by changing theirs >> to Windsor). BTW did you see 'The Windors' on ch 4 recently? Very funny - lots of 'many a true word spoken in jest'-type moments. Interestingly they had a pretty good go at just about everyone apart from Her Maj herself.

Tue 7 Jun 16 14:19    EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 19 - Alanovich

No, didn't see that. Why leave out Lizzie Dripping? Spitting Image weren't ever shy on that score. I'll have a look on 4OD.

Mon 6 Jun 16 16:52   Posters Etc. - Bromptonaut

Anybody else got one in their window? Put mine up this afternoon. Remain of course. Should mean the canvassers don't need to call either. They tend not to bother round here for elections as it's 'monkey with blue rosette' territory. Interesting to see if there's more activity when each vote actually matters.

Mon 6 Jun 16 17:49   Posters Etc. - Dutchie

I've got nothing in the window,Tory territory round here. I don't follow the outers all the years the UK has been part of the E.U was a waste of time? Some of you want something back what has gone years ago.Point system to enter the UK. What next whites only? >:)       5

Mon 6 Jun 16 19:06   Posters Etc. - Manatee

>> I don't follow the outers all the years the UK has been part of the >> E.U was a waste of time? Nothing is all bad. >> Some of you want something back what has gone years ago.Point system to enter the >> UK. Some do. I just favour it being what the UK chooses, not 27 other countries. I'm answering that as a Leaver, because long term I think that leaving would be to our advantage. Although, my postal vote not yet having gone off, I'm wondering where the market shock is. Interesting day on the markets. Two polls say we are heading for Brexit, and sterling has "plummeted" a whole fifth of a penny against the Euro and the dollar, and yet the FTSE has gone up with respect to the other big exchanges including the DAX and the CAC by a multiple of the currency shift. Early days, I dare say.       1

Mon 6 Jun 16 18:38   Posters Etc. - Haywain

"Anybody else got one in their window? " I'm very pleased for you, Brompt but frankly, I'd be more impressed if you'd displayed a picture of Claudio Ranieri.       1