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Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 24 May 14 at 17:21
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Suzanne Evans, UKIP’s Communities Spokesman, was answering questions on LBC at 7pm this evening.
She gave a very good account of herself, and her party - she is a credit to UKIP IMO.
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>> she is a credit to UKIP IMO.
No crude sexist remarks? No getting them out for the cameras? I'm almost disappointed.
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>> Not my type I'm afraid
Of course, of course, sorry and so on, most inappropriate (stares down at feet trying to look embarrassed).
I think I saw her doing her thing on the box. Did OK as I remember.
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This is more 'my type' Sire, and I don't mean the chocky pud: www.nigella.com/
;-)
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She is pretty well universally liked in the party as far as I can tell and my feeling is that when Nigel does step back from the leadership, she will be a name that comes immediately to the mind of many in the party. I would expect a prominent role for her going forwards.
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Have cast my vote in favour of UKIP this morning :o)
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>> Have cast my vote
I did mine by post 2 weeks ago.
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>> Have cast my vote in favour of UKIP this morning :o)
>>
>>
Thank you.
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CGNorwich said:
"I am also rather confused at the widespread hostility to the coalition government. They have managed to steer the economy to be at least pointing in the right direction. All the indicators look good at the moment and the future for the UK actually looks rather promising."
To coin a phrase, I'm with this geezer.
What have they done, given their disastrous starting point, which is so terrible?
Don't get it.
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I have cast my vote for UKIP in the E.U. elections and for my ward UKIP candidate in the local District Council election.
Both ballot papers were collected in the same ballot box, which seems a bit odd.
Now we wait - local count tomorrow. E.U count on Sunday.
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Been and done my civic duty by voting non UKIP - Green.
There were four anti EU parties, five if you include BNP. Will be interesting to see how many 'An Independence from Europe - UK Independence Now' who were first on ballot get.
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2 votes for the Dribbling Lemoncrats from chez A.
I don't expect to be in too much company. But at least I know everyone else is wrong.
;-)
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>> Will be interesting to
>> see how many 'An Independence from Europe - UK Independence Now' who were first on
>> ballot get.
A clear case of failure by the Electoral Commission, who rejected an official complaint from UKIP about this clear attempt to deceive.
There have been reports across the country of EU ballot papers being folded so as to obscure the last name on the paper UKIP.
This is absolutely against the rules - ballot papers should not be folded - if this happens complain.
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>> A clear case of failure by the Electoral Commission, who rejected an official complaint from
>> UKIP about this clear attempt to deceive.
More a test of voter literacy. Neither name nor logo should fool anyone half awake.
>> There have been reports across the country of EU ballot papers being folded so as
>> to obscure the last name on the paper UKIP.
>> This is absolutely against the rules - ballot papers should not be folded - if
>> this happens complain.
Mine was folded in quarters then unfolded again Sole purpose being to define correct form of fold for the ballot box. I seriously doubt any presiding officer would commit or condone a deliberate act as you suggest.
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Ah -the Greens - hiding their Trotskyist far-left, non-environmentalist policies behind an apparent concern for the world's ecology.
That does fool a lot of concerned and politically naive people who know no better.
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>> Ah -the Greens - hiding their Trotskyist far-left, non-environmentalist policies behind an apparent concern for
>> the world's ecology.
>> That does fool a lot of concerned and politically naive people who know no better.
>>
>>
You need to re-read your Trotsky!!
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>> >> Ah -the Greens - hiding their Trotskyist far-left, non-environmentalist policies behind an apparent concern
>> for
>> >> the world's ecology.
>> >> That does fool a lot of concerned and politically naive people who know no
>> better.
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> You need to re-read your Trotsky!!
>>
Oh - alright - Socialist Workers Party (SWP) or Socialist Party of Great Britain (SPGB) then :-)
Is that better?
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>> An Independence from Europe - UK Independence Now' who were first on
I really got confused on this one and didn't expect to see UKIP listed at the bottom.
Anyway, I hope everyone else will be as vigilant.
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I'm voting later... for whoever sends round the best car to take me there.
So far it's looking very quiet on the limo front.
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Got a 'don't forget to vote' through the door from the Cons at 8am this morning (no one else yet) which included a number to ring if I needed a lift to the polling station.
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>> CGNorwich said:
>>
>> "I am also rather confused at the widespread hostility to the coalition government. They have
>> managed to steer the economy to be at least pointing in the right direction. All
>> the indicators look good at the moment and the future for the UK actually looks
>> rather promising."
>>
>> To coin a phrase, I'm with this geezer.
>>
>> What have they done, given their disastrous starting point, which is so terrible?
>>
>> Don't get it.
>>
Simples
They have cut the income of the unemployed so it should no longer be possible to get more money from not working rather than working.
That - according to the Labour Party - is evil..
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Pda wrote: >>Farage may not be different, but at least we are prepared to give him the chance
>>to prove he is and you the chance to say 'I told you so'
People did that with the Lib Dems - who used to promise completely the opposite things in the SW as to the North. And is anybody trusting them now?
UKIP's website no longer has any detailed policies for domestic policy on it. None whatsoever. I guess if you don't know what you're voting for, then you can't be disappointed. The last time I looked at their domestic policy it was so ill written as to be terrifying. Not written in any recognisable form of English. No wonder it's been taken down, but what replaces it?
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We will have a properly constructed and hopefully, with Patrick O'Flynn on-board, a well written manifesto for the 2015 G.E.
This should be in place and published later this year.
(No other party has a 2015 manifesto yet, either!)
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Who is Pda?
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Thu 22 May 14 at 11:39
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>> Who is Pda?
>> Pat
You wouldn't have liked her Pat. Crazed biddy of indeterminate age given to random outbursts of physical violence. Now thought to be in Belmarsh.
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>>This should be in place and published later this year.
>> (No other party has a 2015 manifesto yet, either!)
But I have *no* idea whatsoever what UKIP's policies are, other than leaving Europe. And nor do you. Yet you're supporting them and campaigning for them. What do you think you're supporting?
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>>But I have *no* idea whatsoever what UKIP's policies are, other than leaving Europe. And nor do you. Yet you're supporting them and campaigning for them. What do you think you're supporting?<<
No party has a manifesto out for next year but I am quite clear on many UKIP policies. If you missed our opposition to wind energy, HS2 and those on minimum wage paying income tax, it is simply because you are not listening, one presumes for political reasons.
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>>If you missed our opposition to...
So I know now four things you don't like. What about some detail on the day-to-day running of Britain, available to read on your own website? There isn't any, as you're essentially a single-issue anti-Europe party.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Thu 22 May 14 at 14:44
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>>So I know now four things you don't like. What about some detail on the day-to-day running of Britain, available to read on your own website? There isn't any, as you're essentially a single-issue anti-Europe party<<
So hang on though, you acknowledge four policies, then call us a single-issue party, do you understand what 'single-issue' means?
UKIP is not anti-Europe, Europe is a continent of which we are a big fan. UKIP is anti-EU, a political institution, how you confuse the two beats me.
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>>you acknowledge four policies
Really? I've identified four things you don't like. What do you plan to do?
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>>Really? I've identified four things you don't like.<<
Actually I identified them for you but you were quite capable of doing that yourself, the helpless little lamb act doesnt wash.
>>What do you plan to do?<<
Utilise the political process, like today when I voted UKIP.
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>>Utilise the political process, like today when I voted UKIP.
Fair enough. But what are you going to use the political process to *do*?
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You do know that one synonym of 'rocks' is erm 'gentleman stones', don't you, Pat?
}:---)
(Aunt Mildred didn't approve of my first choice of synonym.)
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Thu 22 May 14 at 18:38
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Of course WdeB, I haven't been a lorry driver all those years and learned nothing!
Pat
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>>Stu rocks:) <<
Is it too early to start a fan page on Facebook? :-p
I have just been reading the UKIP Facebook page, about 1500 comments from people who voted UKIP, many of them young and many stating that they had never voted before ( including one guy who was 81 ). I think it is fantastic to have engaged so many non-voters, it is great for democracy.
What impressed me most of all was a guy working away from home who drove 100 miles home just to vote - tell me another party that can enthuse voters like that.
I think also another positive is the rising prospects of the Green Party - I know, complete opposite of many of my own beliefs but political discourse will be richer for having their unique voice heard, atleast they believe in something with conviction and I deeply respect that.
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...tell me another party that can enthuse voters like that.
No need. The ones with brains get a postal vote.
};---)
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I suspect the thunder and lightning round here at the moment isn't going to help the turnout...
EDIT: plus heavy downpour in case you hadn't guessed
Last edited by: Focusless on Thu 22 May 14 at 13:43
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I suggest that once the dust has settled, recriminations and crowing ended, that we have a moratorium on political stuff for a couple of months!
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I give up reading threads when they degenerate into political slanging matches and arguments between two people.
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No bumf arrived from any of the parties. There were a lot on the voting slip though. At least two looked a bit like hastily-invented anti-Europe parties consciously intended to split the UKIP vote.
I held my nose and gave mine to the LibDems because I know their official attitude to Europe is no-nonsense and correct. That's the only proper policy as such of any of the parties that I am aware of, so it won faute de mieux.
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>>I suggest that once the dust has settled, recriminations and crowing ended, that we have a moratorium on political stuff for a couple of months!<<
Be nice but I doubt it, the next installment is a couple of weeks of Helmer bashing, then we may finally get some peace, if only for a short while.
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Yes, a UKIP election candidate - Geoffrey Clark - suggested compulsory euthanasia for the elderly. That will solve carers' problems...
www.theguardian.com/politics/quiz/2014/may/19/quiz-bnp-ukip-quotes-who-said-what
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Thu 22 May 14 at 17:50
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>> >>I suggest that once the dust has settled, recriminations and crowing ended, that we have
>> a moratorium on political stuff for a couple of months!<<
>>
>> Be nice but I doubt it, the next installment is a couple of weeks of
>> Helmer bashing, then we may finally get some peace, if only for a short while.
I've met Roger Helmer and he comes across as a decent bloke and very knowledgable about his speciality - energy.
That manufactured furore over his Retford visit this week was total rubbish.
One of our members was there and the pushing and jostling all came from the Labour side, with literally in-his-face megaphone abuse.
Oddly, I think that three of our wards to the south, while falling in our own local district council area, are in the Newark parliamentary constituency, so I dare say our branch will be down there campaigning for Roger H.
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Cast my votes after getting back from work at lunchtime. Mrs O didn't bother.
Only 4 in the local ballot..Lib, Lab, Con and Green. Labour always get in here, in spite of it being the ' poshest ' part of the city ( according to house prices ). The Greens get a few votes as there are a lot of 'dirndl, bombasine and sandal jockeys resident in the manor.
About a dozen on the EU paper...gave the Kippers a punt...see what happens !
I was accosted at the door of the polling station by a beardie with a clipboard asking me for my polling number. He peed on his chips there by calling me 'Squire ' like a dodgy used car dealer !
Same guy interrupted my leisure time about 2030 by ringing the doorbell to ask me if I'd voted yet. I just confirmed I had rather than tell him to mind his own business.
My vote's private unless I want to tell. It was to get us men the vote that Jim Davidson threw himself under the King's horse at Wembley in the first place !
Or am I getting confused again ?
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 29 Oct 18 at 10:16
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>> Or am I getting confused again ?
Sounds like a slightly embarrassed Labour vote to me. No offence Horatio, quite the contrary indeed.
Have you seen the Sheikh lately? Is he OK?
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I looked forward to not voting for UKIP. But for us only standing in the European elections for our patch. Oh well.
But somewhat surprised that the BNP had candidates for both.
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>>Have you seen the Sheikh lately? Is he OK? <<
His Facebook page tells us he's in Spain.......after a very long coach journey!
Pat
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Well, UKIP seem to have done quite well in Essex (for starters). So I wondered exactly what people who voted for them were voting for. And I found this.
ukipessex.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/LocalManifesto2014.pdf
It's full of nice warm words, but really what exactly is it that is so appealing for local government. There are pages of blather about things that voting for them in the council will have no control over.
Cut councillors’ excessive allowances and expenses
If they are excessive, then fair enough. But it's not going to make any material difference to your council tax. It might make voters feel better though.
Slash excessive pay deals for senior council staff
Likewise, this will make no material difference. And as they cannot sack or reduce the salaries of the highly-paid staff who are already there - without making them expensively redundant - it's not going to make any difference. It might make voters feel better though.
Limit the number of highly-paid council employees
See above. It might make voters feel better though.
Cut the councils’ advertising and self-promotion budgets
seems sensible
Build partnerships to reduce costs
Sounds lovely. But what does it mean?
Abolish non-essential and politically-correct jobs and red tape
sounds lovely
Leave the EU and save £55 million every day
Voting for local councillors won't change that. It might make voters feel better to read it though.
Drop the EU Landfill Directive to cut refuse disposal costs
Voting for local councillors won't change that. It might make voters feel better to read it though.
Control immigration to ease the burden on local services
Voting for local councillors won't change that. It might make voters feel better to read it though.
Close unnecessary central government departments and quangos
Voting for local councillors won't change that. It might make voters feel better to read it though, but I think the coalition have done quite a bit of that already.
End wasteful EU and UK subsidies to ‘renewable energy scams’, such as wind turbines and solar farms
Hurrah. But not in the power of local councillors.
Require all visitors to show adequate health insurance at the point of entry into the UK
Hurrah. But not in the power of local councillors.
Make it easier for schools to sack bad teachers
Hurrah. But not in the power of local councillors.
Reduce bureaucracy in the education system
Hurrah. But not in the power of local councillors.
Sell unused state-owned property and assets
I don't think there's anything left to sell...
Oppose EU directives adding artificial and detrimental costs
Hurrah. But not in the power of local councillors.
Soooo.... what are UKIP's Essex councillors going to do for Essex? Why did people vote for them? At least if you vote for the Lib Dems you know they'll get your bins emptied.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 23 May 14 at 10:33
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The manifesto needs to be compared against that of other parties'. Where are their promises?
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www.scribd.com/doc/124509821/Essex-Conservative-Group-Manifesto
Here are the Tories. Sensible promises for local elections, plus competing with the UKIP lot on a European level but without making promises they - as councillors - can never keep.
And I cannot find a Labour manifesto that I can be reliably certain is for 2014. Fail!
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 23 May 14 at 10:02
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You don't need a comparison to recognize hot air, Movi.
Useful summary, MM. I don't entirely agree with your analysis but it's informative to see what the kippers think is a policy.
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So the first I hear of the local council elections is on Radio 4 this morning, in the car. They were going on about spectacular gains for UKIP, maybe not an earthquake but certainly tremors, that sort of thing. So when I got to an interweb screen I checked out the results on the BBC News website.
4th place and fewer than half of the council seats of the allegedly hated Dribbling Lemoncrats.
Am I missing something?
Maybe there's some jam to come for UKIP in the EU election results come Sunday, but I'm failing to see any signs that they'll start taking Westminster seats next year based on the Local Council results.
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Looking at the BBC site at the moment: www.bbc.co.uk/news/
Cons and LibDems have lost about 100 seats each, which Lab and UKIP have gained, with slightly more going to Lab.
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>>Am I missing something? <<
Depends on your perspective.
.
The wins in Hull etc are significant because UKIP did there what no other party has managed to do which is present a challenge to Labour, for me that is certainly noteworthy.
I think only about half of the results are in currently so it is a bit early to draw any real conclusions. The most interesting stat for me will be vote share rather than seats and also where we are coming second because that will indicate where we could win over time.
In Northants at the county elections UKIP came second, in many cases a narrow second, in an awful lot of seats so the potential to win is there. Just on my council it isnt beyond possibility that we could take 1/3 of the seats next year looking at the direction of travel.
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... so the potential to win is there.
Really? How's it going to get better for them? A huge protest vote in an election most voters treat less seriously than a general election, lots of people (you asserted this yourself) drawn out of the undergrowth (all right, I added that bit) to vote when they usually wouldn't, while mainstream voters sat on their hands. All this and UKIP still fail to win? Come on - this is as good as it gets for you. The SDP and the Referendum Party are waiting for you in the bar.
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>>All this and UKIP still fail to win?<<
The county election was a year ago, things change. I made no assertion regarding the turnout for the elections last year, the result of which I suggested points to potential wins in the future.
>> A huge protest vote in an election most voters treat less seriously than a general election <<
Most people take council elections seriously, not sure why you assume they dont.
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In one word, turnout. That's not an assumption, it's a matter of record. This means fringe parties - including the Greens (although remember they have won a Westminster seat) have less to do to get a winning share of the vote.
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He said that they treat it "less seriously".
You're getting good at this spinning lark.
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>>He said that they treat it "less seriously"<<
I think it was a pretty ignorant comment, voters that I speak to take the local issues MORE seriously than the national or EU level issues because they sense they can affect the local politics more.
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>> voters that I speak to take the local issues MORE seriously
They may well speak about them more, may even know about them more, but I doubt that they take them more seriously.
Out of interest, voters that you speak to where? Often there is some, perhaps unintended, selection in place.
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Thanks Stu. Ignorant of what? That the turnout in the 2010 General Election was 65 percent (low for a GE, according to the Electoral Commission, but slightly up on 2005)? Or that the turnout in the 2013 local elections you're so excited by was 31 percent?
My experience - which is as anecdotal as yours, albeit probably less extensive because I don't often ask them - is that people talk a lot about local issues like roads and bins, but not that many use that hot air to propel themselves to a polling station.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Fri 23 May 14 at 11:47
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>>They may well speak about them more, may even know about them more, but I doubt that they take them more seriously.
Out of interest, voters that you speak to where? <<
In my constituency, I met a great many when doing the street stalls and while some give a nod to the national UKIP message, most of them are still most exercised about potholes, bins and council tax.
These are things that they experience every day so they use it as a direct indication of whether or not you do what you say, many feel that national government is much harder to measure, especially when national stats are put out that appear to have no link with the individual experience.
That is why local politics matters so much, people can see right in front of them whether or not you failed - not only that but they can knock on your door and ask why. It isnt about the issues as much as feeling you can hold your local councillor to account in a way that you cannot with your MP etc.
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>>Most people take council elections seriously, not sure why you assume they dont.
With a turnout of 31% it is a fact that most people *don't* take council elections seriously.
Anybody voting for UKIP - who have no domestic policies, see my post above - isn't taking council elections seriously.
Don't get me wrong; there's much about UKIP that is appealing; an apparent no-nonsense approach to, say, money-burning wind farms and HS2. But when it comes down to it, they have no policies so you don't know what you're voting for!
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>>But when it comes down to it, they have no policies so you don't know what you're voting for! <<
To be fair though anyone who votes on policy will often be disappointed, just ask a Lib Dem voting student, people dont trust manifestos anyway.
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>>To be fair though anyone who votes on policy will often be disappointed,
OK, so you agree there are no policies. On what basis should we be voting?
>> just ask a Lib Dem voting student, people dont trust manifestos anyway
Not their fault; that's the problem with coalitions, not manifestos.
Have you seen this, BTW, truly hilarious; a complete masterpiece.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIH-2lZF2yw
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>>OK, so you agree there are no policies. On what basis should we be voting?<<
Not what I said at all, I simply stated that people who vote based on a manifesto could well be disappointed - you may well do, granted, but I think you are in a minority.
I used to vote Tory until 2010 purely because my father did and I recalled his stories of the horrors of the 70's under Labour, I had no knowledge of the Lib Dems at all - that was the sum total of my decision making process, I was totally disengaged and I meet an awful lot of people who are exactly the same as I was, especially those under 30.
The wonderful thing about democracy is that you can vote on whatever basis you like, be that a manifesto, whether you like a particular candidate or if there is just one issue, like wind farms, that you want to make a stand about. What I am not going to ever tell someone is what basis they should vote on, we have enough nanny state lefties babying the public as it is.
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>>What I am not going to ever tell someone is what basis they should vote on,
No... but you want me to vote for you; I've told you what I want to see in order to be able to make a decision; it doesn't exist. A bit like asking me to vote for The Fairy Godmother.
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>> >>What I am not going to ever tell someone is what basis they should vote
>> on,
>>
>> No... but you want me to vote for you; I've told you what I want
>> to see in order to be able to make a decision; it doesn't exist. A
>> bit like asking me to vote for The Fairy Godmother.
You get better quality waffle from the Conservatives, it's true.
Still not much there that goes beyond a wholehearted endorsement of motherhood and apple pie though. Apart of course from the referendum promise.
Did I say, if I win the lottery I'm going to share it with you all?
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>> >> just ask a Lib Dem voting student, people dont trust manifestos anyway
>>
>> Not their fault; that's the problem with coalitions, not manifestos.
No one is listening. Mapmaker. They broke their election promise when they got in to government, the only answer is UKIP, they talk straight, etc etc, blah blah, barf barf.
Either everyone who blathers on like this (Stu for example) does not understand the word "coalition" or they are willfully misrepresenting the facts to suit their own agenda. Which UKIP, straight talkers that they are, would never do. Oh no.
If Stu wants to talk straight he'll come out and say that the Tory and LibDem manifestos had to partly go out the window the moment they got together - at a moment of extreme crisis after more than a decade of Labour cock up, and all credit to both parties for doing it - the alternatives were unthinkable at the time. And the LibDems are very much the junior partners, rightly so. You expect them to deliver their full manifesto under those circumstances, Stu?
So here's Stu's chance to talk straight. But he won't. Will he? Well no, he can't now, he's already slaughtered the LibDems for welching on manifesto commitments. Which is weasel faced spin of the worst order. Straight talking, my backside.
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>>You expect them to deliver their full manifesto under those circumstances, Stu? <<
Of course not but given that the Lib Dems made such a huge issue of student fees I would have expected them to have insisted on honouring this pledge, it wasnt a one-liner hidden away in a manifesto document. The Lib Dems had a choice about what they fought for in the coalition agreement and they decided to abandon all those student voters that they very carefully courted - you may approve of that decision, I dont, I think they should have held their ground and given up the AV referendum which nobody really wanted anyway.
I have given them credit elsewhere for the income tax threshold policy which the Tories are trying to pass off as their own, so I reserve some admiration for them in pushing through that very expensive policy, I think it has made a genuine difference and was worth doing.
I supported the coalition in 2010 chap, I thought it could be a new politics, I had some hope anyway, you presume you know what I think far too much for your own good.
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>> it
>> wasnt a one-liner hidden away in a manifesto document.
So what? Obviously, many major things had to give, what with being junior partners. Perhaps holding to the tuition thing would have torpedoed the coalition fatally, maybe it was the responsible thing to do, what with them being over the Tory barrel essentially. AV referendum? Hindsight, eh? Bet UKIP wishes it had gone the other way.
It was absolutely NOT in the LibDems' interests to enter the coalition, but it was distinctly in the country's interest for them to do so, and for that, along with their implacable opposition to the various wars Labour engaged in, they have my respect for a long time.
That the majority of the media led sheep in this country can't or won't see that is a mystery to me.
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Quite right Alanovic
That the LDs got so much stick from their voters was baffling - made me want to shout "but you didn't win!" at them. They took what influence they could parlay and used that, probably knowing it wouldn't making them popular.
I'm not sure they were being entirely selfless nonetheless - it must have been hard to resist being in government even as a minority coalition partner.
They do seem to have taken the brunt of the UKIP switch. Didn't somebody suggest that UKIP has become the default "none of the above" vote?
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ANY LibDem voter who in 2010 believed that free university tuition was economically possible was a numpty and deserves what they got.. I support the LD stance on foreign wars: but their economic policy was for the birds.
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>> ANY LibDem voter who in 2010 believed that free university tuition was economically possible was
>> a numpty and deserves what they got..
Probably true but the fees/loans set up is reportedly little if any cheaper bearing in mind those below the earnings threshold, working abroad or simply defaulting.
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>> >> ANY LibDem voter who in 2010 believed that free university tuition was economically possible
>> was
>> >> a numpty and deserves what they got..
>>
>> Probably true but the fees/loans set up is reportedly little if any cheaper bearing in
>> mind those below the earnings threshold, working abroad or simply defaulting.
Or to put it another way, it's actually a lot more generous than people would have you believe.
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>> Or to put it another way, it's actually a lot more generous than people would
>> have you believe.
That's probably right. I certainly think parents get far too hung up on 'debt' that their kids leave Uni with. I know people who've downsized their house and set up all sorts of schemes to avoid need for tuition/maintenance loan. Yet in reality what's repayable is a graduate tax in all but name.
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>> ANY LibDem voter who in 2010 believed that free university tuition was economically possible was
>> a numpty and deserves what they got.. I support the LD stance on foreign wars:
>> but their economic policy was for the birds.
>>
It's quite possible if you reduce the number of University places back to to proper levels such as we had, oh, when was it now, oh yeah, before Tony Blair and Gordon Brown cocked it all up and insisted 50% of the population should go to University.
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>>I supported the coalition in 2010 chap
I don't recall that anybody was given the opportunity to vote for it. How come you're so special?
>>for that, along with their implacable opposition to the various wars Labour engaged in,
>>they have my respect for a long time
Yes, agreed; likewise the Tories. Doesn't mean I don't fall off my chair with laughter every time I see the Labour Un-credible video...
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 23 May 14 at 14:42
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But one mustn't forget the respect due to Mr. Farage. I do have a sneaking admiration for him
www.spectator.co.uk/features/9212811/ukips-triumph/
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>>I supported the coalition in 2010 chap
I don't recall that anybody was given the opportunity to vote for it. How come you're so special?<<
I didnt say voted for, I said supported, as in supported the two parties in choosing coalition. Do you ever read the words infront of you before taking a shot?
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>>I didnt say voted for, I said supported, as in supported the two parties in choosing coalition
That was very gracious of you, and I'm sure they appreciated it greatly.
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How patronising Mapmaker and yes, the scowly face was mine.
Pat
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Dont fancy being my PR guru do you Pat? :-)
Apparently I am not erudite you see, I need someone to check my laces are done up I expect.
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The one area of the country where UKIP failed to make headway was London. Their reported explanation looks like foot/mouth territory....
tinyurl.com/pmt38zp
Apparently they have difficulty appealing to the 'educated and cultured'.............
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Titter.
5th place now, eh? I was being hastily optimistic on their part declaring them in 4th, then.
Apologies, all.
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A surprisingly insightful assessment from the UKIP spokeswoman.
I don' t suppose the slogan "Vote UKiP if you're old, uncultured and uneducated" is going to win too many votes.
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Interesting article in MM's link, but it's by Peter Oborne and doesn't amount to much more than a more erudite version of Stu's 'UKIP talks straight' line. He argues that UKIP, or specifically Farage, has forced the career politicians to have a debate on immigration and the EU, but fails to spot that he's done that by avoiding the real issues that serious politicians have to deal with.
To accept the article you have to buy the 'metropolitan elite' argument that all the main parties are essentially the same. I don't: there's only one (propped up by another) that's busy privatizing the NHS and pushing education out of national management for the benefit of who knows who. These issues matter, and will be worth voting on long after UKIP is forgotten.
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>>doesn't amount to much more than a more erudite version of Stu's 'UKIP talks straight' line.
Because there's nothing more to UKIP than talking straight...
I've never in my life cast a vote that count; never been in a seat that has been remotely marginal. Perhaps PR does have something in it. Ah but, it makes it easy for swivel-eyed loon parties to come to the fore; Oh...
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>>He argues that UKIP, or specifically Farage, has forced the career politicians to have a debate on immigration and the EU, but fails to spot that he's done that by avoiding the real issues that serious politicians have to deal with <<
And people just like you avoid the issues voters want to talk about which continues to bolster UKIP support. We thank you, as you were and please do feel free to throw some insults in once in a while, it is worth a couple of % in the polls.
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>>avoiding the real issues that serious politicians have to deal with
That's the problem. Imagine for a moment Farage in government (even in a coalition). What are the rest of his policies? Who knows.
The Tories have promised a vote on Europe, which is the only thing we know that Farage wants (plus wind farms and HS2). What's the point in voting for the unknown thoughts of Farage when we know what the Tories think.
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And people just like you...
Who or what do you imagine I am?
Getting indignant when people make fun of your party only encourages more of the same.
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I have just read MM's post to which you replied to see what you/he were on about.
The time I waste because people reply to the wrong posts....
Just saying.
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>>Getting indignant when people make fun of your party only encourages more of the same.<<
Please do, more, more. If you wouldnt mind perhaps making fun of us, say on a poster where lots of voters can see it, helps our cause no end. Much obliged :-p
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Aren't your posters funny enough already?
Not often MM and I make common cause but you are making fun of yourselves until you get some policies. (And a few spokespeople who can be trusted not to go all bongo-bongo under the lights, but really, it's policies you need.). You can't govern a country when all you've got is isolating it from its neighbours and not building a few wind farms and a railway line, and until you can do better you will be no more than a nuisance to the main parties and a reason for turning off HIGNFY.
Trouble is, no-one of the calibre you need will leave a party with a chance of power to join the fruitcake fringe; and until you have enough of that calibre you will remain on the fringe until Farage has had enough and the rest of you quietly shuffle away.
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I'm off to live in Ireland if this carries on.
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>>I'm off to live in Ireland if this carries on.
N.I. or Éire?
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>> I'm off to live in Ireland if this carries on.
Might not be a bad idea. They had some proper austerity. Ours is still to come :(
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>> I'm off to live in Ireland if this carries on.
>>
You are nearly there already aren't you?
;-)
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I can see where you and MM are coming from WdeB but what you don't seem to understand is that the other three parties have long held their policies up for our approval.....and then failed to deliver them.
No point in that at all, so surely it's better to get a clear idea of what the voting public want and what can actually be delivered, before flouting policies at us which get lost and forgotten about.
Pat
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But as Manatee said ages ago now, democracy has never worked that way, and to imagine it ever would is fanciful. It's not à la carte, we select a package - a set menu if you like. And just now all UKIP can offer is tripe.
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Tripe is what we've had since Thatcher left so what's the difference?
Pat
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That sounds like the 'they're all the bleedin' same' attitude that I think is so wrong, but is giving Farage and his clowns their moment in the sun. I've said my piece on that already today.
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I am really rather enjoying this UKIP lark.
It matters not to me whether they stay for the long term or are a brief protest vote ...the one thing they've done for me, is rather focus the minds of the main three parties ..and have them realise that most people in this country couldn't give a rat's backside about Political Correctness and all it's attachments... and that it's about time they listened to what the average voter wanted, rather than what the average politician thinks the average voter should want.
Long may it continue.
Then there's the theory that we might well slip back to 3 party politics...but...it'll be UKIP as the 3rd party, not the Llib Dems.
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>>Trouble is, no-one of the calibre you need will leave a party with a chance of power to join the fruitcake fringe;
And if they do join you in droves [which they won't], then your party will be full of politicians from the 3 main parties. And then what will UKIP say?
The truth is, UKIP's work is done. A worthwhile job, but done. It won't fade away in a week, but it will now fade away.
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I personally think UKIP will survive in some meaningful form for longer than you may imagine: but in place where you may not think it will.. i.e. traditional working class Labour seats..After all, you cannot get more metrolpolitan socialists than Miliband, Balls and Cooper.
As for Lib/Lab /Labour being all the same, it may be for the politically dumb or willfully dumb .. except for expenses of course..Maria Miller being the latest crowing glory of an arrogant thieving MP..
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I think the duckhouse bloke still holds the Palme d'Or, or whatever the prize is for brazen fraud!
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Wasn't the (infamous) duckhouse actually turned down as an expense?
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Yes he never got the £3500 (£5k?) he claimed.. it was turned down..
Maria Miller just served to remind us how poisonous the expenses scandal still is. The MPs at Westminster still have not learned their lesson.. MPs in safe seats are the worst. Hopefully UKIP will help make several seats less safe..
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Unclear from the Wiki reference, so I'm happy to correct to "alleged".
Not the most extreme at £1645, but one of the funniest.
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The problem with MP's expenses is/was that it had become an accepted practice to claim stuff on expenses to supplement your income, because the basic income for what they were doing, isn't that great in the big scheme of things.
How can an MP receive a salary equivalent to a London Police Inspector or a Deputy Head of a comprehensive, etc.
We should pay them commensurate to what they are doing i.e. running the country, allow sensible expenses and bin the rest.
I think an MP should be on at a least £100K per year...and the P.M. £500k.
Much less is an unacceptable fudge and as for refusing them 1st class travel and ministers a car ..what a load of tosh, why shouldn't they receive that?
They'd then have no excuse to fiddle things.
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>> The problem with MP's expenses is/was that it had become an accepted practice to claim
>> stuff on expenses to supplement your income, because the basic income for what they were
>> doing, isn't that great in the big scheme of things.
>>
>> How can an MP receive a salary equivalent to a London Police Inspector or a
>> Deputy Head of a comprehensive, etc.
Pretty much agree with that. Using the PM's salary as a ceiling for 'acceptable' public sector pay is barking.
Then we need to sort the Parliamentary etc day so they work office hours. A London flat, rented not mortgaged, is reasonable for those over an hour from London. Others should be paid hotel bills for odd late night/early turn issues - as I was as a Civil Servant.
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what's the parliamentary day at the moment, why do people not want it changed, what's good about the system we have now?
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>>As for Lib/Lab /Labour being all the same, it may be for the politically dumb or willfully dumb <<
The assumption is so often made that 'they are all the same' is in response to policy ( although there is plenty of common ground with the parties hugging the so-called centre ground ) - this is a rather classic groupthink assumption - what voters mean by this more often than not is that the Lib/Lab/Con parties are stuffed full of the same sort of people, similar education, similar background and similar high-minded attitudes to the voters - watching them all chant "racist" in perfect harmony for a month just reinforced that perception.
4% of MPs are from a working class background, which includes the 'Labour' Party and from my experience chatting to people that vote UKIP, what they cannot abide, infact hate with passion, is arrogant middle/upper class know-it-alls who think that just saying "There there, let us intelligent people take care of things" will appeal to a working class voter.
Watching Ed Miliband pretend he is the bargin hunter of Primrose Hill doesnt help either mind you, the man is a fake and Labour will suffer for holding him up as any kind of leader. If they had any sense they would insert Chukka Ummuna into the leaders seat rather quickly - he might not be one of the little people but he does a far better job of atleast sounding like he is interested. How Labour ended up with Miliband when they have a talented young guy like that on the books I really dont know, baffling party.
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>>How Labour ended up with Miliband
Because the willfully short-sighted and terminally hard of living unions voted for the wrong brother.
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>>Because the willfully short-sighted and terminally hard of living unions voted for the wrong brother <<
I dont disagree. I also happen to think Farron would be a much better leader than Clegg, I find him quite likeable. I am also very impressed with Jeremy Browne, seems a very sensible chap not prone to tribal nonsense.
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>> Because the willfully short-sighted and terminally hard of living unions voted for the wrong brother.
The brothers are peas from same pod. Both are fearsomely bright and undoubtedly have the academic/policy etc grasp required for high office. Personally I suspect they're both capable of securing commitment in meetings etc but neither seems to have the gravitas (the sixties Tories used the term 'bottom') to engage a wider audience. When cameras can fire off tens of frames a second any public figure is susceptible to the 'wrong sort of exposure' but for both Milibands to be caught awkwardly with bacon or banana is bad luck in extreme.
They should have elected Alan Johnson.
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>>They should have elected Alan Johnson <<
Not a bad shout although he seems happy enough keeping the This Week sofa warm these days.
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>
>> The brothers are peas from same pod. Both are fearsomely bright and undoubtedly have the
>> academic/policy etc grasp required for high office. Personally I suspect they're both capable of securing
>> commitment in meetings etc but neither seems to have the gravitas (the sixties Tories used
>> the term 'bottom') to engage a wider audience. When cameras can fire off tens of
>> frames a second any public figure is susceptible to the 'wrong sort of exposure' but
>> for both Milibands to be caught awkwardly with bacon or banana is bad luck in
>> extreme.
>>
>> They should have elected Alan Johnson.
>>
That's interesting I'd agree I don't know them at all and aren't into following MPs, but they both seem to have a certain thing about them, I think best described as 'political geeks'.
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Alan Johnson is far too nice to be an effective PM.
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I pinched this from a Facebook post. It shows both our strength and our weakness.
"So let's hear it for the first past the post voting system in Doncaster.
Labour - 26,552 votes and 15 seats.
Tories - 8,880 votes and 3 seats.
UKIP - 22,046 votes and 1 seat."
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At least 'we' gave the LimpDems a good hammering, Dodger.
:o}
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Another protest vote ???
FOALE, Simon Conservative 811 Elected
MACKENZIE, Kelvin St George's Hill Independents 770
WICKS, Thomas Labour 127
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>> Another protest vote ???
>>
>> FOALE, Simon Conservative 811 Elected
>> MACKENZIE, Kelvin St George's Hill Independents 770
>> WICKS, Thomas Labour 127
>>
Is there a local issue Kelvin was campaigning on?
Independents are surprisingly common in local government. We've had one here on/off for several years on the borough; he's very effective and tuned in to village issues. There are five more from other wards.
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>>Is there a local issue Kelvin was campaigning on?
Not that I am aware off.
At a previous count I happened to be counting his votes so he is not a new candidate for that seat.
www.stgeorgesra.com/
Includes a map of the estate etc.
For those who are not aware of the area
Saint George's Hill is a 964-acre (3.9 km2) private estate in Weybridge, Surrey, The estate has both golf and tennis clubs, as well as approximately 420 houses. The estate is a popular residential location for celebrities and successful entrepreneurs.
The estate is a third of the size of Heathrow
Wiki lists some of the well known names that have lived there.
Google images will show many of the large mansions there.
Only winners of of large Lotto prizes need apply :-)
It could be Meeeee :-)
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RE henry k @19:55
The Diggers seized St Georges Hill in 1649.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Land_is_Ours
Ironic innit!
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UKIP Debate - Volume 12 - Dog
