| Non-motoring > Im in the wrong job! | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Stuu | Replies: 74 |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 10:54
Im in the wrong job! - Stuu
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www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289702/Public-sector-inertia-council-office-employees-month-sickies.html?ITO=1708&referrer=yahoo Ive only had one week off this year and I thought that was too much. Its another world. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 12:06
Im in the wrong job! - midlifecrisis
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It's the Daily Mail! The Beano has higher standards of journalism. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 12:08
Im in the wrong job! - Bellboy
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| the 6 month sickie then back to work for a week isnt just happening in the councils though............................................... |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 12:25
Im in the wrong job! - midlifecrisis
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And being able to have six months off, come back for a day and then have another six months off is factually incorrect as well. I await the 'it's all the Public sector workers fault' type posts. Strangely, most have paid the tax they owe and don't employ accountants to avoid it, most don't sit at home drinking Stella and creaming in £20-30'000 on benefits while watching their wide-screen TV's and most don't give themselves multi-thousand pound bonuses after leeching the taxpayer of £130 billion in tax-payers money in order to bail them out. (Although if someone could sack the 'diversity co-ordinators', I'd happily buy them a beer) |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 12:33
Im in the wrong job! - Bellboy
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im in a long communication with my solicitor and he has many questions of my local council,unfortunately the person he is dealing with is on long term sickness no one else for the first 4 months of this year could sort this problem out and he explained to me he constantly dispairs when dealing with councils in general its still ongoing is my case wife works for nhs she sees many cases of sickness for 6 months less one day and then they get sick again,the most used excuse is stress in my lifetime ive reported many crimes but try and contact the policeman assigned to your crime,they are always on holiday or off sick try reporting street furniture obstructing the pavement and see how many months it takes before you get some action public services need an arrow up their backsides i havent even mentioned hospitals Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 26 Jun 10 at 16:36
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Sat 26 Jun 10 12:37
Im in the wrong job! - midlifecrisis
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I've got it..you're the editor of the Daily Mail aren't you. Can you tell which Police Force it is that they're all on holiday or off sick, I wouldn't mind working there! |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 12:38
Im in the wrong job! - Bellboy
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>> I've got it..you're the editor of the Daily Mail aren't you. >> >> Can you tell which Police Force it is that they're all on holiday or off >> sick, I wouldn't mind working there! >> >>>>>>>>>its called the freedom of information act |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 13:49
Im in the wrong job! - midlifecrisis
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No, seriously..you know the answers. Please tell me. Which Police are you referring too where all the Officers are 'off sick or on holiday'. I'm interested. Or could it be you're talking the usual nonsense, inspired by the Daily Mail. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 14:00
Im in the wrong job! - Bromptonaut
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It may, and only may, be true in the authority the Mail's mole works in. it is absolutely not like that in the whole of the public sector. In the bit where I work, the home Civil Service, the six months on full pay is rolling/cumulative over a number of years so nobody can come back and go straight off again. I'd suspect 'Doreen' is a mental health case and should be addresses as such (and am I alone in detecting subliminal racism in the reference to Nigerian curse. And yes it's perfectly possible to be on sick leave, perhaps recuperating from cancer, and take a trip overseas. OTOH using the firm's phone while out there would be a disciplinary offence if personal calls were involved. But then perhaps the employee was using it to call HR? The key phrase in the article is- There are procedures in place to address attendance, but nobody ever follows them through Its for Managers, starting with the Chief Exec, to make damn sure they are followed. Oh and Bellboy please don't refer to stress as an excuse. I've had it mildly and I've seen it reduce my wife to sitting in a corner communicating in monosyllables. Too often its another symptom of a failure by management to address their own processes and to deal firmly with abusive clients (pr in the wife's case school kids). Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 26 Jun 10 at 14:02
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Sat 26 Jun 10 14:23
Im in the wrong job! - swiss tony
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>> Oh and Bellboy please don't refer to stress as an excuse. I've had it mildly >> and I've seen it reduce my wife to sitting in a corner communicating in monosyllables. >> Too often its another symptom of a failure by management to address their own processes >> and to deal firmly with abusive clients (pr in the wife's case school kids). >> I too have suffered 'stress' or in my case depression due to major family issues. I was suicidal and under a shrink, but due to working in the private sector, and not getting full pay, or any benefits I had to go to work. I had to laugh the other day when some Civil Servant was complaining he was now under a payfreeze and had no idea how he may be able to survive. I know people who haven't had a payrise in 5+ years, in fact some have taken a cut. Roll on Civil Servants trying to live in the real world, many don't have a clue what its like. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 14:17
Im in the wrong job! - oilrag
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There are plenty of vacancies for my old job, If anyone want`s to apply ;-) It your lucky you will have a caseload of only 40 - and a duty roster. Much of your life ( in the small hours - and holidays too) you will be worried about whether your constant day by day assessments are balanced. will your clients harm themselves or someone else? will you be sued and so on. You will be expected to work until the need is resolved, typically 3 times a week around 5 hours after your shift ends. You will get no payment other than time in lieu, for that. You will sweat to find a way to get it back. You will find babies with maggots in their nappies and stains on ceilings of living rooms which when investigated are coming from urine soaked mattresses thrown onto bedroom floors. You will have death threats made as you deal with it and meet rotweilers in living rooms and men coming to the door with shotguns. You will deal with drug, HIV and Mental Heath issues and assessments. Some of your clients will have fascinations with large knife collections and ceremonial swords. Through out it all you will be personally `case accountable` and your survival (both literally and professionally) will hinge on your constant assessments. You will be exhausted at the end of the working day. Partly by the role and partly by the lack of asleep and 2am staring at the ceiling sessions wondering if you made the right decisions that day and whether anyone will kill themselves - or someone else. But an assessment under the Mental Heath Act will come in just as you think you can go home and you will work (on average an extra 5 hrs) This means coodinating the assessment, summoning and reading files, conducting the assessment and then waiting for a bed. This may be 100 miles away and you have to follow the ambulance to admit the patient - give the rights and write a report, long hand, into the medical file. It`s then late at night, but you sit on and put a full 2,000 word report onto a dictafone to be circulated the next day. Thirty years of this and you get a Gold Plated Pension. But the memories of the maggots and literally a thousand other atrocities committed by human kind linger on. Last edited by: oilrag on Sat 26 Jun 10 at 14:20
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Sat 26 Jun 10 16:00
Im in the wrong job! - Iffy
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Social work? Meetings, seminars, writing reports running into thousands of words, talking and writing unintelligible claptrap (sounds familiar, anyone?). And why oilrag was worried about the job messing up is beyond me. Just close ranks and spew out more meaningless drivel, because you will never be held to account or sacked. Oh, we did try to get rid of one the other day, didn't we? You could hear the squealing in the next county. We've all been patted on the head and told we don't understand for years. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 16:25
Im in the wrong job! - Dr_Rubber
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If Oilrag looked after his cases like he looked after his cars please can I be asigned somebody like him should the need arrise! With the exceptions of a few "bad apples" that the press likes to harp on about, most civil servants are hard working and don't take the michael any more than the rest of us, but some, to quote pratchet, "I could get medieval with their a*s".... And yes, dealing with the government paperwork system day in day out probably does not hurt oilrags creative wting skills. Joe Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 26 Jun 10 at 16:37
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Sat 26 Jun 10 16:40
Im in the wrong job! - Manatee
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>>And why oilrag was worried about the job messing up is beyond me. Some people go into jobs like that because they care. Close to home, some people also leave them for the same reason; seeing the lack of care that the system results in, in the NHS at least, was too much to bear for a couple of people I know. I work in the private sector; a commercial job, with no great social consequences other than for me and my family. I can't remember when I last had a day off sick, though I've worked at home a couple of times in the last three years with coughs and colds. I do a lot of unpaid overtime like many others. I consider myself fortunate - I don't work unsocial hours, my weekends are mainly my own, and I'm still clogging as we say in Yorkshire. I could do with downshifting though, work is interfering with my life too much. Anybody know of a nice little job going on a street-naming team? Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 26 Jun 10 at 16:40
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Sat 26 Jun 10 16:58
Im in the wrong job! - Bagpuss
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That newspaper article is typical Daily Wail. An "anonymous" account which no journalist has bothered following up to ascertain what the facts actually are. Not necessary of course, because the readership will lap it up anyway. We only have the newspaper's word that the person apparently relating their account of working life actually exists. I'm absolutely certain there is incredible wasteage of resources in the Public Sector but I would prefer to make my judgement based on facts rather than the wafflings of journalists who cobble together unresearched junk on their Macbooks between pub visits (yes, I can stereotype as well as anyone). |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 18:10
Im in the wrong job! - Iffy
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I have some experience of police, CPS and local authorities. Drawing from this, I find the account given by the anonymous worker wholly believable. One small example I know to be true: Staff at one CPS unit take their 'agreed' and unchecked sick leave as extra holiday - it has nothing to do with their fitness to attend work. They call it 'doing the garden' because even in their ingrained culture of skiving it is deemed bad form to book a foreign holiday during this time off. Another common thread with under-worked and over-paid public sector workers is endless bleating about how much stress they are under - see entries in this thread. Empty vessels, it has been said, make the most noise. Or to slightly alter another saying: Me think they protesteth too much. Last edited by: ifithelps on Sat 26 Jun 10 at 18:11
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Sat 26 Jun 10 18:52
Im in the wrong job! - Fursty Ferret
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| Sorry, I know someone who works for a local council who is almost permanently on sick leave. Seen as a bit of a joke among her colleagues but as in this situation, she's impossible to get rid of. Interestingly, she can afford to smoke 50 a day and keep a horse at livery, and ride it too. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 19:08
Im in the wrong job! - Iffy
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Then there's the copper 'on the sick' who ran the line at the League Cup Final. Best thing about that story is his employers defended him. Don't tell me, mlc, the Daily Mail made that one up, too. Hardly surprising skiving comes to be regarded as a rightful perk of the job when taking the mick is actively encouraged. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 19:27
Im in the wrong job! - teabelly
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Wrong. You can be got rid of while on sick leave on capability grounds. There are simple procedures to follow. Bad management as usual. Bad management is why there are higher sick levels in the public sector as those that are lazy don't get dealt with so the hard working ones usually end up running themselves into the ground. When it comes down to it why would you want to do unpaid extra work??? Contracted hours are contracted hours. Only mugs do extra as most of the time employers don't notice or don't care if you do more work. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 10:49
Im in the wrong job! - Mapmaker
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>> When it comes down to it why would you want to do unpaid extra work??? >> Contracted hours are contracted hours. Only mugs do extra as most of the time employers >> don't notice or don't care if you do more work. Work in the public sector, do we teabelly? I am paid to do a job. Nobody else here does what I do. The job has to be done so I do it. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 12:55
Im in the wrong job! - teabelly
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No I don't work in the public sector. See plenty of people complaining how they put in all these extra hours for zero extra reward though. There's a whole heap of difference between doing extra here and there to get the job done and continually doing extra hours to cope with excessive workload and inadequate staffing levels. There isn't much wrong with the former. The latter is exploitation. If you have to continually work extra hours then your employer needs to provide another person or part of a person. If enough people were actually employed to do the actual work needed to be done without lots of overtime then there wouldn't be so many unemployed people around... employers continually whine there aren't sufficiently qualified people around but neither are they prepared to spend the money training suitable people to fill the skills gap either. In the UK we work the longest hours in the EU from what I remember. No wonder the kids of today are a mess. No one lies in their death bed thinking they wished they had spent more time at work! |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 10:56
Im in the wrong job! - Zero
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>> When it comes down to it why would you want to do unpaid extra work??? >> Contracted hours are contracted hours. Only mugs do extra as most of the time employers >> don't notice or don't care if you do more work. IN most of the private sector, your employer notices if you dont put in the extra hours, and your promotion and "merit" payrises go out the window, and you are top of the list for redundancy when it comes round. In the public sector, everyone in a grade gets the same pay. It dont work that way in the private sector, you get paid by your ranking and performance within your grade. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 11:02
Im in the wrong job! - Bromptonaut
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>> In the public sector, everyone in a grade gets the same pay. Probably true 20 years ago but not now. The 'bonuses' that have hadso much publicity are actually the performance related elements of peoples pay. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 11:11
Im in the wrong job! - Zero
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| usually equally shared within a team or function, bearing no relationship to an individuals performance or non performance. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 11:20
Im in the wrong job! - Bromptonaut
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>> usually equally shared within a team or function, bearing no relationship to an individuals performance >> or non performance. In thje public sector? Rubbish. Anyway, break over; I've got work to do. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 12:57
Im in the wrong job! - teabelly
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| Employers should perhaps take more notice of results rather than presenteeism. Just because you are there are lot doesn't mean you're more productive. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 19:45
Im in the wrong job! - Bagpuss
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>> Sorry, I know someone who works for a local council who is almost permanently on sick leave. Seems like everyone knows someone who knows someone who's skiving and costing the taxpayer lots of money. I would have thought there would be a degree of natural curiosity on the part of the journalists at publications like the Wail to find the truth and publish it, i.e. facts not polemic. This, however, would mean said journo putting the whisky bottle back in the filing cabinet, brushing the dandruff off the jacket collar, getting the lardy backside off the seat and going and doing some investigative journalism. This is hard work and clearly not expected by the target market. Easier just to fictionalise and use the trick of referring to the "anonymous source". |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 19:04
Im in the wrong job! - midlifecrisis
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I've got some experience of the Police as well. Colleague of mine was stabbed in the neck a few weeks ago, he had a day off after being released from hospital (what a slacker!) After normal rest days, he was back in work a few days later with a dressing on. I could go on about the many who have never had a day off, or work plenty of unpaid overtime, have to cancel family holidays because their rest days/leave are cancelled at the last minute. But that wouldn't fit into the Daily Mail nonsense that gets printed. It's a bit like Germany in the 1930's, say it often enough and the Public believe it to be true. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 19:45
Im in the wrong job! - Buddy
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| read an interesting bit of political speculation the other day, MLC, basically wondering why Paul Dacre, the Mail Group's long serving editor, hadn't yet received a knighthood. Successful (in a commercial sense) his product certainly is, but I think (hope!) the time has long past when a grateful government would dare to hand out a gong for services rendered by a tabloid editor. It's an entertaining newspaper, as long as you remember that most of the "stories" are driven by comment, stemming from an agenda. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 20:09
Im in the wrong job! - Bellboy
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i find it interesting that those that are looking in ie self employed or work for a commercial organisation see this waste of resources either first hand and or told it by family but those that work for these public bodies always come on the defensive and moan its sensationalistic journalism wake up boys in the public secter youve had it too good too long we now have a government going to shake your ass and you dont like it you cant hide behind your pie charts forever you know the truth always outs in the end :-) |
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Sun 27 Jun 10 11:50
Im in the wrong job! - midlifecrisis
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>> i find it interesting that those that are looking in >> ie self employed or work for a commercial organisation see this waste of resources either >> first hand and or told it by family >> but those that work for these public bodies always come on the defensive and moan >> its sensationalistic journalism >> >> wake up boys in the public secter youve had it too good too long >> we now have a government going to shake your ass and you dont like it >> you cant hide behind your pie charts forever you know >> the truth always outs in the end >> :-) >> I would've thought that the people who work in the Public sector actually see it for what it is, rather than 'told to me by a friend of a friend' or 'it was in the Daily Mail'. The nonsense is that a story comes out of one person playing the system and all of a sudden every Public Sector worker is responsible for the mess this country is in. I'd quite happily see the demise of all the politically motivated non-jobs that Blair and Brown introduced, to try and bribe the typical benefit form filling Labour voter. But it's easier to stimulate the mob mentality and point the finger at everybody from dustmen to detectives. People have very selective memories. I chose a much lower salary when I joined the Police than what I could've got elsewhere. I did without the big yearly bonuses and heavily subsidised company cars and chose the 30 year option. I have a friend who earns significantly more than me, but pays hardly any tax thanks to his creative accountant. I think he's had it 'very good' for a while. Now the financial industry (aided by the criminally negligent Gordon 'hate him with a passion' Brown) got us into this mess. However, all the people who had it good before the meltdown are now throwing their teddies out of the cot and stamping their feet complaining that the Public sector workers shouldn't have a pension. |
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Sun 27 Jun 10 18:43
Im in the wrong job! - Zero
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>> People have very selective memories. I chose a much lower salary when I joined the >> Police than what I could've got elsewhere. I did without the big yearly bonuses and >> heavily subsidised company cars and chose the 30 year option. I have a friend who >> earns significantly more than me, but pays hardly any tax thanks to his creative accountant. Dont give us this "the pay is rubbish, the hours are long, and we could get killed on shift" malarky. No-one forced you to join the police force. If you could have got better pay elsewhere then you should have done so. You could have done so at any point int he last 30 years. You joined because its an exciting worthwhile job with variety, good promotion prospects, and if you keep your nose clean, you have good security and an excelent pension (far better than most in the public sector, certainly better than the NHS front line nursing sector) with a much lower age of retirement than the rest of society, followed by the "old boys" job club till you are 60 ish. And for the vast majority of those who join the police they deliver a worthwhile and excelent service for the rest of us and probably suffer far more than us. However, there are parts of the civil and public service that are easy and people are taking the pee. Try sacking any of them and you will see why. The pay is now comparable, the hours for those that dont want to make the effort are lower, and the pension is way out of kilter with what is affordable or comparable with thos who worked harder in the private sector. As for tax, I paid a shedload in my time, easily as much as you do, and so does the vast majority of those under PAYE in the public sector. Now take you halo off and get off your high horse, OK? Last edited by: Zero on Sun 27 Jun 10 at 18:44
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Sun 27 Jun 10 20:01
Im in the wrong job! - midlifecrisis
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>> Dont give us this "the pay is rubbish, the hours are long, and we could >> get killed on shift" malarky. >> No-one forced you to join the police force. If you could have got better pay >> elsewhere then you should have done so. You could have done so at any point >> int he last 30 years. >> >> You joined because its an exciting worthwhile job with variety, good promotion prospects, and if >> you keep your nose clean, you have good security and an excelent pension (far better >> than most in the public sector, certainly better than the NHS front line nursing sector) >> with a much lower age of retirement than the rest of society, followed by the >> "old boys" job club till you are 60 ish. And for the vast majority of >> those who join the police they deliver a worthwhile and excelent service for the rest >> of us and probably suffer far more than us. >> Now take you halo off and get off your high horse, OK? >> >> >> My , someone rattled your cage didn't they. If you can point to any part of my post where I wrote ""the pay is rubbish, the hours are long, and we could get killed on shift"" then you're clearly looking at the wrong post. I didn't want an Office job, simple as that. Nothing to do with 'exciting' or 'promotion prospects'. I took the lower pay option in exchange for the 30 year contract. Our pension isn't bad, but then we pay a significantly higher amount in than the NHS. Yes, I can retire after 30 years (at the moment), but then I'd prefer not to see 65 year old bobbies trying to chase 18 year olds around town. You seem to have missed the point about tax. Most Pubic sector workers are indeed PAYE. There are plenty of 'private' sector people making lots of noise about 'unaffordable' whilst avoiding as much tax as they can. If that's not hypocrisy, then what is? |
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Sun 27 Jun 10 23:33
Im in the wrong job! - smokie
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" chose a much lower salary when I joined the Police than what I could've got elsewhere. I did without the big yearly bonuses and heavily subsidised company cars and chose the 30 year option. I have a friend who earns significantly more than me, but pays hardly any tax thanks to his creative accountant. I think he's had it 'very good' for a while." Heard much the same argument from teacher friends - and yes, they are still friends. There is definitely a view from inside the public service that non public servants make much more money and pay less tax etc etc which I will say is simply not true. It may be true for a minority but there are millions of people out there who only earn a very modest wage and do not have the levels of security etc enjoyed by public servants. I don't have any ax to grind either way and there is no way I'd want to be a teacher, but I don't believe the teachers would get on too well with my job either, and our pay is not that dissimilar and I currently have no pension, no car, no sick leave entitlement or any other perks. Last edited by: smokie on Sun 27 Jun 10 at 23:34
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Sun 27 Jun 10 23:56
Im in the wrong job! - Iffy
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The ill-educated hordes are not all their fault, but if teachers were paid by results, they would owe us money. The pay used to be poor because it was accepted teaching was effectively part-time: late starts, early finishes, breaks during the day, no weekends, and weeks and weeks of holidays. The job suited women who wanted some form of career while also bringing up the family. Fine, but in the last 30 years teachers have fought hard to be recognised as 'professionals' and now command wages to match. Yet the staff car park is still largely empty by 4pm. Good luck to them for pulling it off, but the fact remains the majority are now vastly over-paid for what they do. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 08:57
Im in the wrong job! - commerdriver
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>> The pay used to be poor because it was accepted teaching was effectively part-time: late >> starts, early finishes, breaks during the day, no weekends, and weeks and weeks of holidays. >> Yet the staff car park is still largely empty by 4pm Iffi, sorry but you are talking rubbish, that's not how it is in modern secondary school. My wife works extremely long hours with marking, lesson preparation, reports etc and some of the behaviour she has to deal with would make your hair curl. When I dropped her off at 7:40 this morning the car park was far from empty and when she leaves at about 5 with a pile of reports to deal with this evening she will not be the last one out by a long way. The majority are not "vastly overpaid" , maybe a few senior ones are but most are in it to try to educate kids in a subject they have some considerable passion for. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 09:35
Im in the wrong job! - Iffy
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...some of the behaviour she has to deal with would make your hair curl... She wouldn't be doing so if I had my way. There are a significant number of children who don't want to be educated and 'know their rights'. I wouldn't waste any resources on them. This would give numerous benefits. The children left in school would only be those who wanted to learn. They could really 'fly' thanks to the efforts of Mrs Commer Driver, who would not be wasting her time trying to instil the basics of manners and respect for your elders in lost causes. We would need far fewer teachers so we could get rid of her workshy colleagues, close a few schools and save a great deal of money. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 09:51
Im in the wrong job! - commerdriver
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The "management" view in education unfortunately is that "there are no bad students only poor teaching" in the event of disciplinary problems or lack of effort from the little darlings. Unfortunately if you simply expel the significant number (still a small minority) you create more problems for everyone outside. Don't know of any "workshy" teaching staff at my wife's school, think the same is probably true at most. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 13:58
Im in the wrong job! - Bromptonaut
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>> The job suited women who wanted some form of career while also bringing up the >> family. Primary school teachers were and are predominantly women. Nothing to do with marriage/childcare and everything to do with societies view of proper roles for men. In the grammar school I went to from 1971 to 78 the staff were less than half female. A few more at the excellent comprehensive my own kids attend and they're much better represented in senior roles. Incidentally there were cars on the staff car park when I passed at 07:20 this morning and there will still be some there when I pass this evening. There is much wrong with our education system though I don't think 'uneducated masses' is anyway fair. The biggest problem is politicians who constantly tamper with the system instead of letting the teachers get on with the job. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 20:10
Im in the wrong job! - Stuu
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I knew that one would make for some polarised discussion :-) Of course it is an entirely made up story, Im sure such things could never happen in the public sector, that would be crazy. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 20:27
Im in the wrong job! - Runfer D'Hills
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After many years of self-employment I recently went back to an employed position. I still can't get my head round having a day off sick as being an option though. Perhaps I should force myself to try it. As for stress, don't make me laugh. Try not being in a position to pay yourself anything, and I mean nothing, for a year, with a young family to support and the "system" won't give you any financial help because you have a business and are therefore working. Stress because you've had a hard day ? Still got paid didn't you. Makes a bit of a difference in the end. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 20:37
Im in the wrong job! - oilrag
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I haven`t read the report, but there`s a lot of dead wood that can go in local government before you affect essential services. But essential services are on the whole well trained and committed. If dying of cancer for example with open wounds - discharged from hospital - my wife is up at 5am and out caring, bathing feeding and changing soiled sheets. She does this month in month out, through the snows when people stayed at home rather than go to work, I noticed that outlining my own experiences as a Social worker above was given an offensive rating - surrounded by the usual offensive posts. At least have the grace to leave this one alone. After all, you never know when you yourself may be longing for a Home Care to arrive - having soiled yourself and lying in bed being able to do nothing about it. life is strange sometimes, how karma comes into play. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 20:41
Im in the wrong job! - Fursty Ferret
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Come to think of it, the lady at Manchester council's noise reporting team replied to my email within minutes and was at the source of the noise within an hour, and sent several personal emails following it up. No-one ever said that EVERYONE who works in the public sector is lazy, overpaid, and milking the system. But arguably it's a damned sight easier to do it than in the private sector. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 20:44
Im in the wrong job! - oilrag
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| Your last sentence is true, Alfa. |
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Sat 26 Jun 10 20:49
Im in the wrong job! - oilrag
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But the real problem is inefficiencies, in particular in middle management and in services that are just not essential. What has been needed for a long time, is service managers being recruited from the private sector with a `can do` attitude. Last edited by: oilrag on Sat 26 Jun 10 at 20:52
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Sun 27 Jun 10 13:30
Im in the wrong job! - Bromptonaut
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I started in the Civil Service in 1978. Office managers in those days were called Chief Clerks, nearly all blokes, addressed as Mr and deferred to without question. My induction talk included a very clear warning that self certified sick leave was not a perk to be added to the already reasonably generous holidays. As a manager myself I've monitored it for years and had 'words' with numerous people who had patterns ranging from Monday/Friday to hangovers and, more problematically what were obviously 'women's problems'. We still have a sick pay scheme, probably generous by small employer standards but I suspect comparable with what's on offer in banks, utilities etc. Long term (over three weeks) is rigorously monitored and some conditions, including depression & stress have to be reported to welfare straight away. If you're not going to be fit to return dismissal on capacity grounds is the usual course. Medical retirement is subject to very tight 'gatekeeping' and, for those in the premium pension scheme it can be annulled if the capacity to work returns. There used to be attendance perks like not coming in until 10:00 during the 'long vacation' when the courts were not sitting. That had disappeared by the eighties; people were re-deployed to other areas where work was less cyclical or where there were arrears. Flexi time, greeted with approbation even by those who remembered the attendance book and its 09:00 red line, turned any creative attendance into fraud. And don't get me started on contractors, consultants and interim managers. The few good ones are far outweighed by the charlatans taking a grand a day for six months install something the staff could have designed in a week. I'm not intending this to be defensive, or to suggest there are never any abuses (though where they exist it's because managers won't use the processes that exist) but to try and put the other side of the coin. |
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Sun 27 Jun 10 18:37
Im in the wrong job! - Old Navy
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| I agree with Broptonaut's post, I worked for a local authority for ten years after my Navy service and no one would get away with the Daily Mail scenario. |
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Sun 27 Jun 10 21:43
Im in the wrong job! - Netsur
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Its not just civil servants. I have two members of staff, actually sisters. One takes a great deal of 'sickness and compassionate' leave, the other barely any. The one who takes the most has adult children who are complete wasters; the one who barely takes any has a school age child. I would love to get rid of the obvious one, but it is too much trouble and eventually, enough work will come in for her to realise that she is only making trouble for herself if she takes more time off. |
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Sun 27 Jun 10 22:45
Im in the wrong job! - Bromptonaut
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>> I would love to get rid of the obvious one, but it is too much >> trouble and eventually, enough work will come in for her to realise that she is >> only making trouble for herself if she takes more time off. OTOH Gareth, she might just read this thread!!! Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 27 Jun 10 at 22:50
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Mon 28 Jun 10 00:00
Im in the wrong job! - Bellboy
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OTOH Gareth, she might just read this thread!!! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and there lies the answer to the malaise |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 11:34
Im in the wrong job! - Cpt. Flack
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Like MLC I pay 11% each month from my salary into my pension scheme. This I have paid since I was 18 and now I'm 46. The promise in 1981 was a final salary pension. When I draw this my monthly pension will be half of my salary. So no, this pension is not free, gold plated or whatever.The spin is to turn the mistakes of the private sector onto the public sector. As MLC said, the pay wasn't as great as the private sector. Friends enjoyed perks and well above inflation pay rises over the last 25 years. The biggest pay rise I have ever got was 3 %. The other day we were comparing wages when we started. My take home salary in 1981 was £400. A colleague in 1992 was £800. He now takes home £1700. Not a great jump in nearly 30 years you have to agree. Thats why we count on performing our duty for 30 years to the best of our ability to serve the community, yes you, and at the end of it get a reasonable pension. Is that too much to ask for. Now our paymasters are looking to turn on us because of the deficit. I for one will walk out the doors in regards my pension. I'm nearly finished and don't see why I should have to forego it now. And as for PAYE. We keep this country afloat. Any self employed person I've have known has had a clever accountant to see that they pay as little tax as they can. Not a minority in any way. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 11:50
Im in the wrong job! - smokie
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Until my most recent job, which has no pension scheme, sick pay scheme or any other perks, I've been paying in up to 11% of salary, year in year out. My pension money eventually buys an annuity. The state of the pot has been hammered by world events and I will not be getting 50% of my salary, at 65, let alone earlier - plus a nice lump sum. My redundancy last year was after 22 years at the same employer where, despite consistently getting above average performance reviews, I had only had about 5% pay rise in 9 years, and was sent out with statutory minimum payment. I'm now 55 and they told me there was not enough in the fund to retire at 55, even if I wanted to, despite having been in schemes since I was 19. That's the way it is, and although it's disappointing, I'm not particularly bitter about it. My Mrs took the opportunity to pay into her share purchase scheme at a previous company. U think it was £250 a month, of real money. She did that for about 109 years, and we took out one lump. But the shares have absolutely plummeted and are worth about £2500 on a good day. But as far as I'm concerned, and without any real bitterness, I do regard your pension as gold plated. And it isn't all rosy out in the real world. EDIT: And I too am a PAYE person. Last edited by: smokie on Mon 28 Jun 10 at 11:51
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Mon 28 Jun 10 12:04
Im in the wrong job! - Iffy
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...I'm 46....I'm nearly finished.... It is ridiculous to train a police officer at great public expense over many years and then pay him to sit at home at an age when he could give many more years of useful service. What does an inspector gets if he leaves at 50? A lump sum of about £80k and £1,500 - £2,000 a month? He's hardly being 'nckel and dimed', to coin the US president's phrase. Last edited by: ifithelps on Mon 28 Jun 10 at 12:05
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Mon 28 Jun 10 16:47
Im in the wrong job! - Bigtee
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Got a guy at work had 6 months off back in next week with full pay, every year around january time always goes sick for a few weeks this time a nice cool 6 months, he knows the scam too well and the company can do nothing about it. Last month i did 108hrs of overtime this month it's about 68hrs and the one before that about 68hrs im knackered, got the last 35hrs to do this week then 2wks off no more for a bit at least, if you need the money you work for it i don't do it to help the company althought it does im doing it for me.! |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 20:09
Im in the wrong job! - MD
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>>Any self employed person I've have known has had a clever accountant to see that they pay as little tax as they can. Not a minority in any way. I have never known a clever Accountant. The Accountant makes the books from the figures that the Businessman gives him. The Business man signs them off (as his responsibility). The Businessman takes his pay, pays it into the bank, sets his expenses against it and bingo the rest can surely be worked out by anyone. The Revenue are not thick, far from it. If all your self employed mates are having it away then they are lucky and have not been noticed, but it is teenage mathematics to be able to work out whether someone is 'at it' or not. 50K in. 40k out. Big mortgage and nice car don't stack. Blame the revenue I say. Personally have never risked it and never would as Spanish law then applies. I.E. Guilty until proven innocent. I have also looked at the big mouth folk who claim (in public usually) that they are 'having it away' and to be fair they have naff all and have earnt far less than that. Reality has a habit of being real! M |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 20:14
Im in the wrong job! - Bellboy
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top post MD the only people screwing the revenue properly are the ones not known to them you all know the types |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 20:21
Im in the wrong job! - Runfer D'Hills
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Quite so Martin. I had a run in with the Inland Revenue a few years back. Not my fault, in fact it was their mistake, but it took months to persuade them of that while they continued with very threatening letters and phone calls. Full investigation then followed and eventually they conceded that I was squeaky clean ( which I knew ). That experience, its costs, the attendant worry and all that went with it including being over a long period spoken to as if I was a criminal would put most people off any thoughts of swinging the lead. I have never, ever, misrepresented my tax liabilities no matter how painful they may have been and never would. Quite apart from my own sense of fair play I simply couldn't endure the fallout if I were to be treated like that again. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 21:13
Im in the wrong job! - Cpt. Flack
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"the only people screwing the revenue properly are the ones not known to them" Ask any London Black Cab driver what they earn in a year. You wont get a definiative answer, because they declare what they think they should pay the Revenue and pocket an awful lot lot of cash. That goes for many self employed and you know it. How many times have you been offered cash for work and took it. If you are one of those declaring exact accounts and pay the exact tax, then you are either a liar or you need another accountant. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 21:32
Im in the wrong job! - Bromptonaut
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The cash economy, plumbers, taxi drivers etc are a different question. Government does however seem to believe there is a problem with higher rate taxpayers converting business income to capital gain. I also use agency staff, mostly lawyers, about half of whom trade as a limited company rather than being employed by the agency I hire them through. Presumably they're getting something for forsaking holiday and sick pay!! There is a perception amongst those on PAYE that self employment confers some tax privileges. There is probably a grain of truth in there in things like employing family members and the apparent scope for using deductions to purchase kit out of gross rather than taxed income. Some of these things probably apply in PAYE as well, for example membership of professional bodies. But I suspect it would be more difficult for an employed teacher to get deductions for text books or IT kit than it would be if they were say a self employed tutor. Mrs B has just abandoned employed teacher status for a mix of agency supply, tutoring and possibly some freelance writing curriculum development work. Not going to be worth paying an accountant but I'm going to have to get to grips with doing her return!! I suspect the big gains from SE are as mythical as the public sector sinecure and that what there is is part of the risk/reward/security calculation that underwrites whether people prefer to seek tenured employment (in either sector) or be 'their own boss'. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 28 Jun 10 at 21:34
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Mon 28 Jun 10 21:40
Im in the wrong job! - Stuu
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Im self-employed and I do my accounts totally on the level. I dont pay much tax but then I dont earn much really either. I set against tax only what Im entitled to and under-claim on things like phone bills and petrol, just to make sure my accounts are beyond scrutiny. My accountant is on the level, she asks me the same questions every year to confirm all is above board on the claims. I wouldnt do it any other way. I even declare my tips. I just cant be bothered to try an fiddle things, its just asking for trouble and I like restful sleep. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 21:54
Im in the wrong job! - R.P.
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| My first wife was an accountant - a forensic accountant in latter years - she would never assist anyone to defraud the tax people she would signpost legitimate ways of reducing the tax - in the end she specialised in catching people out, especially after they went bust, she was very good at ferreting out hidden money. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 21:57
Im in the wrong job! - rtj70
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If the law permitted me to avoid paying some tax on an income I would do that. I would never break the law etc. But if I am allowed to avoid tax according to the rules then I'd be stupid not to. Not that I've had the chance yet. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 22:00
Im in the wrong job! - Cpt. Flack
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| And the rules at the start of my career was that I would draw a pension after 30 yrs. I'd be stupid not to ;-) But the government seems hell bent on kicking me in the b****. All because of sections of the private sector. |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 22:12
Im in the wrong job! - smokie
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"All because of sections of the private sector" I don't think you can place ALL the blame on the banks, popular though that is. What happened there may have precipitated it but the whole world economy was charging off in a bad direction. IMO partly down to inflated personal expectations but almost universally due to the buy now pay later mentality, which can only work for so long before the cows come home to roost, as they say :-) The current govt cutbacks are due to massive increases in public spending, or commitments made by the previous team which could not be met. And burgeoning costs of employing public servants (haven't we already been here?). Also reducing revenues from PAYE etc due to unemployment. You can't blame the banks for that. (btw I DO blame the banks for a lot!) |
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Mon 28 Jun 10 22:17
Im in the wrong job! - Zero
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Look gordon brown kyboshed pensions years ago when he taxed them, to pay for more public sector. So my old fruits, the expansion by your public service employers will kybosh your own pensions. |
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Tue 29 Jun 10 08:52
Im in the wrong job! - Dog
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I became self employed in 78, most of my work was paid in cash, I used to do all-right in beer money (tips) I had the mother of all accountants (a genius with figures) I hardly paid any tax over the years, they only waste it anyway. God save the Queen. |
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Tue 29 Jun 10 10:13
Im in the wrong job! - Bromptonaut
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>> Look gordon brown kyboshed pensions years ago when he taxed them, to pay for more >> public sector. >> >> So my old fruits, the expansion by your public service employers will kybosh your own >> pensions. And that my friend is a classic example of a story repeated by the press for so long it's acquired the status of gospel. For a large part of the nineties pension funds were apparently in surplus. Employers were taking long contribution holidays, effectively transferring cash from the pension fund to the shareholders. A tax on the surpluses was a pretty logical step for an incoming government. Interesting to see what the Tories would have done had the political history played differently. Subsequently of course the world has moved on. Changed accounting standards mean that pension liabilities are much more clearly on the books (arguably swinging to far the other way) and more conservative investment rules together with a 10yr static period in stocks has decimated capital returns. And of course people live longer and, in some cases retire much earlier!!!!! |
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Tue 29 Jun 10 10:28
Im in the wrong job! - Zero
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>> Subsequently of course the world has moved on. Changed accounting standards mean that pension liabilities >> are much more clearly on the books (arguably swinging to far the other way) and >> more conservative investment rules together with a 10yr static period in stocks has decimated capital >> returns. >> >> And of course people live longer and, in some cases retire much earlier!!!!! All of which makes public sector pensions just as unafordable as private sector pensions. Every private sector company has closed defined benefit pensions to new entrants, and within the next two years every company will have frozen the same for existing members. There is no reason why public sector pensions should not suffer the same fates. Last edited by: Zero on Tue 29 Jun 10 at 10:29
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Tue 29 Jun 10 10:33
Im in the wrong job! - Bromptonaut
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>> Every private sector company has closed defined benefit pensions to new entrants, and within the >> next two years every company will have frozen the same for existing members. >> There is no reason why public sector pensions should not suffer the same fates. Already happening. |
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Tue 29 Jun 10 10:44
Im in the wrong job! - smokie
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"Every private sector company has closed defined benefit pensions to new entrants" Not BA, according to last para of this news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10443981.stm |
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Tue 29 Jun 10 10:50
Im in the wrong job! - Zero
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I dont see where that says its not closed to new entrants, merely about the existing pension members.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 29 Jun 10 at 10:50
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Tue 29 Jun 10 10:54
Im in the wrong job! - smokie
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Ah OK, maybe not "BA, which is arguably in much worse financial shape than the BBC, has kept its seriously indebted schemes open for contributions," he says. I retract my earlier statement :-) |
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Tue 29 Jun 10 09:50
Im in the wrong job! - Mapmaker
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>> If you are one of those declaring exact accounts and pay the exact tax, then >> you are either a liar or you need another accountant. Accountants engaged in preparation of fraudulent tax returns run the risk of going inside as well. It doesn't happen. Now, if you're asking whether there are clever schemes invented to turn income into capital gains, or to create somewhat spurious deductions, then yes. But they are entirely legal and above board. e.g. I recently saw an opportunity for reducing tax. It involved buying units in a Jersey Unit Trust that owns a newly built office block in the centre of the city. If you were a 50% tax payer, and could invest £1m, you would get £1.8m of tax savings in the form of capital allowances over the next five years which could be offset against your general income, plus a further £2.9m of tax savings if you had suitable rental income, plus the prospect of making a profit in the underlying asset in due course. Problem is, few people have £1m spare, and few pay sufficient tax to be able to benefit in that way. |
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Tue 29 Jun 10 18:27
Im in the wrong job! - Cpt. Flack
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"But they are entirely legal and above board." Okay but is that fair. Then do you agree that PAYE workers prop this country up big time. |
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Tue 29 Jun 10 18:30
Im in the wrong job! - Mapmaker
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>> "But they are entirely legal and above board." >> >> Okay but is that fair. Then do you agree that PAYE workers prop this country >> up big time. As do all types of tax payers. |
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