With the weather finally starting to warm up, I've run the air con a couple of times over the last few days.
Once it is up to speed, the car is nice and cool (can easily get too cool), but it probably takes about 10 minutes to get properly comfortable.
Might there be any value in getting the air-con re-gassed? (Mondeo is 4 years old now, with about 35,000 on the clock).
|
|
Ask around, i got the C2 topped up for £20, needed doing again the following year probably due to not running it enough in the winter to keep the seals good.
|
|
If it's getting "nice and cool" then it's probably ok. The lowest temperature quoted for the Xantia is about 8 degrees C air from the center vents when it's running in a cool ambient.
|
>> With the weather finally starting to warm up, I've run the air con a couple
>> of times over the last few days.
AC is for all year round use, not just for hot days.
It also makes for an excellent demister when used in conjunction with the heater.
Some people make the mistake that AC should only be used with the heater set to cold. This is not the case at all. Climate control systems run the AC all the time along with the heater. AC is just a basic form of climate control, but with more manual intervention.
In short, use the AC regularly, or chances are it won't work when you really need it.
|
>> AC is for all year round use, not just for hot days.
The owner's manual for my 2003 Focus recommended switching off the climate control when it was not required. I followed this recommendation for the whole of the 8 years I had the car, and when I recently sold the car the climate control was still working OK. So there!
Last edited by: L'escargot on Tue 23 Apr 13 at 13:48
|
>> The owner's manual for my 2003 Focus recommended switching off the climate control when it was not required.
But how do you know when it's not required?
That's the whole idea behind CC, to allow it to work out when it's required, not you.
>> I recently sold the car the climate control was still working OK. So there!
But as the weather has been cold up until recently, using your logic, it wasn't required, so how did you know it was still working?
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 23 Apr 13 at 14:02
|
>> >> The owner's manual for my 2003 Focus recommended switching off the climate control when
>> it was not required.
>>
>> But how do you know when it's not required?
>>
>> That's the whole idea behind CC, to allow it to work out when it's required,
>> not you.
I use aircon when I want the incoming air to be colder than the outside ambient air, and I use the heater when I want the incoming air to be warmer than the outside ambient air.
>> >> I recently sold the car the climate control was still working OK. So there!
>>
>> But as the weather has been cold up until recently, using your logic, it wasn't
>> required, so how did you know it was still working?
>>
I checked it so that I knew that the car was in good condition before selling it to the dealer. I also checked the horn. The last time I checked the horn was just before its previous MOT.
|
>> I use aircon when I want the incoming air to be colder than the outside
>> ambient air, and I use the heater when I want the incoming air to be
>> warmer than the outside ambient air.
So why buy a car with CC when you're not going to use it properly? You could have saved a few pennies and bought one with bog standard AC instead.
|
Even if it's only straight aircon it still needs regular exercise. Unless running an engine small enough for it to seriously affect fuel consumption why bother to turn it off?
Routine in Xantia is start and then cockpit checks;
Seat - set correctlyfore/aft anf for height
Mirrors - not where daughter left them!
heating/ventilation - set including AC and fam on and demist selected
lighting - as required
radio - to 5 live
By time that's sorted the hydraulics are on line and we're ready to go.
|
>> So why buy a car with CC when you're not going to use it properly?
>> You could have saved a few pennies and bought one with bog standard AC instead.
>>
I chose the car so that I could have a 182ps petrol engine. Climate control comes as standard with the variant that has that engine. Anyway, it's only your opinion that I'm not using the climate control "properly". The way I use it is as per one of the methods described in the Owners Manual.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 24 Apr 13 at 09:12
|
>> Anyway, it's only your opinion that I'm not using the climate control "properly". The way I use it is as per one of the methods described in the Owners Manual.
I can't see how your manual differs from loads of others.
When the CC or AC is switched on, words like
"Provides a comfortable interior regardless of the weather, outside temperature or season"
"Offers the greatest comfort in the vehicle interior regardless of the conditions outside"
"To ensure a uniform and comfortable climate in the vehicle, the temperature of inflowing air, air-flow rate and air distribution are automatically adapted based on the climate conditions outside the vehicle and the current temperature of the vehicle interior"
Switch it off and you alter the benefits mentioned above and the system isn't working to maximum efficiency.
|
>> >> Anyway, it's only your opinion that I'm not using the climate control "properly". The
>> way I use it is as per one of the methods described in the Owners
>> Manual.
>>
>> I can't see how your manual differs from loads of others.
You'd better explain your thinking to Ford and see what they say.
|
The
>> way I use it is as per one of the methods described in the Owners
>> Manual.
Which page?
www.focusplanet.com/downloads/focusmanuals/2003/2003_focus_owner_guidemanual.pdf
|
>> the system isn't working to maximum efficiency.
Maximum efficiency would be approached significantly if one could achieve exactly the environment one wanted without using the CC.
Bearing in mind that efficiency could be described as amount of effort used against degree of satisfaction achieved.
Assuming one gives a stuff whether or not ones approach to ones own car is "approved".
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 24 Apr 13 at 10:40
|
>> Switch it off and you alter the benefits mentioned above and the system isn't working
>> to maximum efficiency.
>>
Next time I'll have to ask the dealer to swap the automatic climate control for the manual aircon from another car.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 24 Apr 13 at 11:08
|
The owner's manual for my 2003 Focus recommended switching off the climate control when it was not required. ... climate control was still working OK. So there!
I've done the opposite with the CC in my 2002 S60, l'Es - don't know what the manual advises but I hardly ever switch it off. It's still working well, never needing regassing. Have we proved anything? Only that both systems were presumably put together properly in the first place.
}:---)
|
>>In short, use the AC regularly, or chances are it won't work when you really need it.
The AC in my nearly 11 years old LEC has never been switched off, has never been serviced, and works as well now as it did when the car was new.
|
>> never been serviced, and works as well now as it did when the car was
>> new.
I have a fiver in my wallet says it doesn't. You may think it does but a gradual degradation over 11 years is never noticed, but its 11 years worse than it was!
|
>> I have a fiver in my wallet says it doesn't. You may think it does
>> but a gradual degradation over 11 years is never noticed, but its 11 years worse
>> than it was!
Well, I guess a bag of boiled sweets purchased last month might be fractionally less flavoursome than a bag of the same make purchased today. But I doubt that you would tell the difference.
You're splitting hairs, Zeddo!
:)
|
>> Well, I guess a bag of boiled sweets purchased last month might be fractionally less
>> flavoursome than a bag of the same make purchased today. But I doubt that you
>> would tell the difference.
you would if they were 11 years stale!
>> You're splitting hairs, Zeddo!
>> :)
In 11 years you could be bald!
|
>>
>> >> never been serviced, and works as well now as it did when the car
>> was
>> >> new.
>>
>> I have a fiver in my wallet says it doesn't. You may think it does
>> but a gradual degradation over 11 years is never noticed, but its 11 years worse
>> than it was!
>>
Much the same with the pollen filter. My Saab was never really getting cool last summer, and the flow through the air vents wasn't wonderful. I hadn't really noticed the lack of air under normal circumstances. When I changed the pollen filter, it was quite unbelievable how much more air came through, and the interior became far more comfortable.
But to be fair, I've never really noticed a difference with a regas, which IIRC I have never had done on this car, which I've had for 6 years and is now 10 years old. But it does have CC, so it's on most of the time except when the ambient is below 4°C, which it is quite often here in the winter!
|
|
It loses about 10% a year. Had the Focus done at three years, certainly seemed to have a colder 'edge' to the chilly blast. Certainly worth the £40. The pre- and post- readings almost exactly backed-up the 30% loss.
|
>> With the weather finally starting to warm up, I've run the air con a couple
>> of times over the last few days.
>>
>> Once it is up to speed, the car is nice and cool (can easily get
>> too cool), but it probably takes about 10 minutes to get properly comfortable.
>>
>> Might there be any value in getting the air-con re-gassed? (Mondeo is 4 years old
>> now, with about 35,000 on the clock).
Answer is, probably. Taking longer to get up to speed is one of the signs of needing a regas. The lancer at 6 years old is showing those exact signs, and I will get it done.
Once its up to speed its capable of chilling air to about 6c, except when you open more vents and increase fan speed, then it starts to struggle. I expect the regas to fix that too.
|
|
I noticed the other day in some sun Mrs F's C3 aicon didn't come on so I guess I'll be sending her to Quick Fit soon. On the other had the Alfa aircon surprised me on a similar sunny day by blasting cold air... given I'd made a mental note to get that in for a check/re-gas as I couldn't see anything in the file to say it had ever been done.
|
|
Re-gassing can mean anything from a DIY can from Halfords through the £49 Kwik Fit effort to a full blown specialist aircon service. This site has some useful info on the process: www.gocool.co.uk/4598.html
|
>>the £49 Kwik Fit
>> effort
Not really an "effort", It is fully automated and the only thing they can cock up is selecting the wrong car on the machine. When my last car was done the output temperature was measured before and after and "no improvement, no £35" applied. The machine will not charge a system that has a leak.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 24 Apr 13 at 08:57
|
>> Not really an "effort", It is fully automated and the only thing they can cock
>> up is selecting the wrong car on the machine.
I'm not decrying Kwik Fit (or now Halfords I see) but the £49 jobby isn't as thorough as a specialist would be and when they their machine detects a leak that's as far as they go I expect. The specialist however might want two or three times what Kwik Fit charge for their services.
|
>>.....and when they their machine detects a leak that's as far as they go I expect.
>>
My understanding is that the auto systems, when it detects a leak, will not recharge the system.
|
|
Aircon systems in buildings have been associated with Legionnaires' Disease so why not cars? To be on the safe side HJ recommended running the system for 10 minutes at full heat, then then switching to 10 minutes at full cold (or was it the other way round?).
|
>> To
>> be on the safe side HJ recommended running the system for 10 minutes at full
>> heat, then then switching to 10 minutes at full cold (or was it the other
>> way round?).
>>
My opinion of HJ is that he's a journalist, not a car expert.
|
IIRC Legionnaires is associated with water. It lurks in the cooling towers of building aircon where water is part of the cooling cycle and anti-bacterial precautions are inadequate. The bug spreads in tiny water droplets.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionellosis
It could perhaps occur in a badly neglected car system if the pollen filter was soaked with stagnant water but pretty unlikely I think.
The run hot routine suggested by HJ and others is intended to remove the general risk of musty smells in systems not operated daily.
It is suggested however that screenwash reservoirs can harbour L bacteria. It should be killed off though by normal concentrations of alcohol based additives.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 24 Apr 13 at 13:00
|
|
Regarding aircon, my Ford dealer says "If it's not broke, don't fix it." So much for some people's opinion that franchised dealers are out to get every penny from you that they can!
|
I spent a number of years in the car a/c business. Usually natural leakage is extremely small, and therefore hardly noticeable. The output temperature at the vents is controlled by the system electronically or mechanically. As such, it is only when maximum demand is placed on the system that lack of refrigerant is actually noticeable. A half full system being used on a 18 deg day will probably still reach the minimum vent temperature allowed by the control system.
The systems use such cheap low quality components and materials, that appreciable amounts of gas is nearly always lost through failure somewhere, long before any natural leakage has an effect.
My advice is just to run it until it breaks or performance disappears. It will either work well for a long time, or suffer a major leak or failure. I certainly never saw any evidence that running it constantly made a system last longer. Most leaks are from components themselves (pipes/condenser/compressor etc), and not from the rubber seals (usually O rings) that actually join the components. If a failure did occur at a seal, it was nearly always corrosion on the cheap alloy parts in which the seal sits, undermining the seal itself. I also have numerous sets of replacement seals in the garage going back 15 years. None of them have perished or dried out.
No amount of on/off, hot/cold is going to stop the pipes rotting out, hoses rubbing through, catastrophic compressor failure, or a stone through the condenser.
|
>> I certainly never saw any evidence that running it constantly made a system last longer.
I agree completely - it's one of those myths that the retail motor industry loves.
It's a result of some poor logic.
As you say, leakage is the problem. Leakage is a time dependent process - the longer the time, the larger amount of substance leaks away.
If you don't use a system for a while, you don't know whether or not the A/C refrigerant has leaked away. It's only when you switch it on that you find out. This means that people are more likely to find their A/C doesn't work after a period of not using the system. Usually on the first hot day of the year.
The point in time when the A/C system stops working is largely random - some systems are sealed much better than others, and that's really all there is to it.
So, we have effect, and the problem is now people are desperatly keen to attribute a cause. Hence, the lack of use, and some guff about seals needing lubricating, becomes the (false) culprit.
|
|
The problem with HJ is that he puts these random thoughts through as if they're gospel and because its in the Telegraph it takes life.
|
|
Dave, as someone who spent a working lifetime in automotive R&D (admittedly not as an aircon expert) I concur totally with what you've said. I'm pleased that you've come forward and put your knowledgeable views and experiences into print.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 24 Apr 13 at 15:00
|
Does that explain why windscreen wipers only pack up when it's raining?
;>)
|
Well unless it's raining you won't know that they've packed up!
o)
|
>>Does that explain why windscreen wipers only pack up when it's raining?
It is why queues only seem slow when you're in them.
|
|
It's why you always find things in the last place you look.
|
|
For me my question would be whether I would notice any improvement if I had my system regassed? I still have the original gas in a 7 year old car, it keeps the car cool but if we had a hot Summer then I don't know if I would still achieve the same cooling affect, ie does the gas go "off".
|
I think we can safely infer from what Dave and NC have told us that there's nothing to be gained from re-gassing a system that still performs acceptably. If the weather warms up and you can no longer keep the car cool, that's when you have a problem and it's worth taking some action - but gas alone may then not be enough.
The Volvo had its first warm start - as in starting after a morning in the sun - of the spring today. Soon had it comfortable inside. As Z said earlier, it's probably not 100% of its 2002 self, but it still does the job so it's OK with me.
|
Yes, my view is that if the system is working, leave it well alone.
The problem with frequent fiddling about with the system is making sure the right amount of lubricating oil remains in the system along with the refrigerant. Too liitle, and the compressor is at risk from direct mechanical wear and damage. Too much, and the compressor runs the risk of trying to pump liquid - which again would damage the compressor.
For my own cars, as I'm not working against the clock, I remove the compressor, drain and refil with the manufacturers recommended quantity of oil if I have the system apart. I also fit a new drier element if the system is opened.
To check and eliminate all system leaks properly takes a long time. I don't have the equipment to check under pressure, and so, I'm forced to do tests under vacuum - so, I run the risk that a seal might displace under pressure and no longer seal. Checking that a system will remain sufficiently leak tight to allow a decent life between recharges takes at least an hour or so, and needs precision pressure / vacuum measurements.
|
I think I must be pretty lucky.
I operate a minimal maintenance regime.
I replace the oil as it uses the stuff its got, or in the event of some work or other.
I put whatever petrol in that is closest when the light comes on.
I wouldn't dream of doing anything to any system that was actually working, especially Aircon and the like.
It gets serviced when its a) not working right and b) I don't know what's wrong with it.
I have no issue starting it, moving it and switching it off in 30 seconds if I need to.
etc. etc.
And yet, I very rarely have much go wrong that its not attributable to banging into something. Remarkable when you consider the hostile environments I'm often in.
I quite admire people who take a diligent approach to it all, I often wish I did. In fact I frequently declare that I'm going to, but I don't.
And I can't see that my cars suffer for it. If they do, they still do high mileages and there's enough left to sell.
|
Re-gassing Air Con - -
